New Dungeon is a return to bad habits

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I would say a lot of character/gimmick started getting stripped from dungeons in around 3.2/3.3 to be honest... Sure we had some good bosses through up until 3.5, but they were just that... some good bosses. Wasn't entirely a baseline.

Same thing with Stormblood, so I wouldn't really synonymize it with dangerous... Once again, we had some dangerous bosses, but they were far and few between, e.g., Mist Dragon from The Burn, and this design was hardly the baseline for dungeon difficulty of that expansion.

I feel that sometimes people get far too caught up on the few bosses which were actually of that caliber, that it just completely skews perception of what was the baseline difficulty/danger.

Would also argue that in many cases where people would want to argue 'danger', is that it was more of a result of things not inherent to the dungeon, and not because the dungeon itself was actually dangerous.. e.g., availability of resources/guides compared to now, jobs then versus now, player skill then versus now.

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Ah right, you're correct, there was one! Mist Dragon. I agree with that. It felt so odd back then because it was the only time a dungeon actually offered such a bump on the road.

I just want to reframe the dungeon as a respite rather than a regression.

Keep in mind had the dungeon been in line with what we've had this expansion and there's a good chance that people would have complained about that for the opposite reason.

I cannot really argue who's wrong or right in this case - because I see both sides as valid.

I do think that a return to (Hard) Modes may be in order going into the future. Remembering that it wasn't just resources but the idea that our difficulty was meant to be standardized - and for a time this was fine. But to grow the game further we must once again separate the distinctions and intent of dungeon design. Things that can appeal to low stress story orientated players and thrill seekers.

I feel that the Devs have hinted and showcased what Variable Difficulties can look like.
It could be for example that MSQ dungeon difficulty and then taking those dungeons and building onto them for (Hard) versions or some form of Challenge Dungeons.

There were so many brilliant dungeons this expansion not just the max level ones that I feel saddened that they are purely leveling dungeons. Skydeep Cenote or Vanguard comes to mind.

I'd love to see MSQ dungeons scaled up to max level and maybe even given more twists to appeal for a more exciting dungeon content for the daring. (Perhaps even remixes of older dungeons for a patch cycle similar to an unreal but again with more ontop)

Anyways I don't think that there's anything to worry about. We have many more challenges ahead.

I personally feel like the real issue is trash packs not having synergy that must be broken.

I've expressed this elsewhere, but every role should feel their impact when they take on a trash pack, and "gather and aoe" should be extremely dangerous to attempt.

I want trash packs to feel more like M6S add phase (but without the brutal enrages) and less like the current normal dungeon content.

Example mob types that, when thrown together, would do this:
1 mob stacks vulns on the tank.
Another mob winds up very powerful aoes and requires interrupts.
Another will throw para or silence on the healer.
Another frenzies.
Another moves slowly and can quickly 2-shot a tank, but behaves like the "spiny" in UWU and locks onto the first person to hit it (kite it or else)
etc. etc.

theres only one thing wrong with the new dungeon.

the final boss is a boring griffin.

My biggest gripe with the new dungeon is the final boss is unironically probably one of the most boring bosses they've launched this entire expansion. Disappointing considering I was looking forward to it when I seen it in the trailer. Did the tornado in the death wall even do anything?

My biggest issue with dungeons overall besides being glorified hallways and only serving to continue the msq is that trash pulls are insultingly mundane and boring. There's nothing to them besides their damage being more lethal than bosses somehow (lol).

cast interrupt who? What do most of them interrupts even matter when you can just dodge the aoe anyway? Make them more life threatening.

Dungeons in DT are extremely easy and boring

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Originally Posted by Zairava

My biggest gripe with the new dungeon is the final boss is unironically probably one of the most boring bosses they've launched this entire expansion. Disappointing considering I was looking forward to it when I seen it in the trailer. Did the tornado in the death wall even do anything?

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The tornado is another point from where thunder lines can originate. Practically speaking it doesn't make much of a difference.

Dungeons should be easy though. You have 3 more difficult settings of content to play including V&C again soon.

Honestly the biggest problem with dungeons isn't their difficulty for me, it's the rewards they give.

I absolutely despise XIV's dungeons, they are all the same mob pulls with overall easy usually unoriginal bosses, but Expert Roulette remains one of the best ways to grind out weekly tomes outside of Hunts. It's fine for dungeons to be easy but they need to make it so players who enjoy harder content can get their weekly tomes from that harder content.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

The tornado is another point from where thunder lines can originate. Practically speaking it doesn't make much of a difference.

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Okay I would honestly have never known or noticed this if you hadn't said it. Wow that's underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

I personally feel like the real issue is trash packs not having synergy that must be broken.

I've expressed this elsewhere, but every role should feel their impact when they take on a trash pack, and "gather and aoe" should be extremely dangerous to attempt.

I want trash packs to feel more like M6S add phase (but without the brutal enrages) and less like the current normal dungeon content.

Example mob types that, when thrown together, would do this:
1 mob stacks vulns on the tank.
Another mob winds up very powerful aoes and requires interrupts.
Another will throw para or silence on the healer.
Another frenzies.
Another moves slowly and can quickly 2-shot a tank, but behaves like the "spiny" in UWU and locks onto the first person to hit it (kite it or else)
etc. etc.

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That's what I'd like having instead of constantly playing that stupid tug of war between "dungeons should be easy" and "dungeons should be challenging". Dungeons are baseline AND msq and if people even remotely think they'll be made more difficult then perhaps it's a little deluded. But making them engaging though, and without speaking about the job design and everything beyond, it's the gameplay that's not engaging.

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Originally Posted by Raim

Dungeons should be easy though. You have 3 more difficult settings of content to play including V&C again soon.

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No they SHOULD not be easy....

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Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

No they SHOULD not be easy....

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Dare I ask why? I can understand the argument of, "how easy is too easy", even if I also find it pretty easy(heh) to figure out how to have my fun with them anyway, but why should dungeons mandatory for story progression and eventually necessary to unlock basic functions not be easy enough that it is expected everyone to clear them?

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Dare I ask why? I can understand the argument of, "how easy is too easy", even if I also find it pretty easy(heh) to figure out how to have my fun with them anyway, but why should dungeons mandatory for story progression and eventually necessary to unlock basic functions not be easy enough that it is expected everyone to clear them?

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Well, I would argue that they are max level dungeons, and appear on an "Expert roulette"

When you hear the phrase: Well this requires an expert. You would expect the instance to require someone who has mastered their job to some degree and a dungeon you couldn't stumble through to clearing right? I mean, that is just logical.

So for one, the labels are confusing. Then we could get into the fact that as a game progresses there is a general expectation that you will be pitted against more challenging scenarios, after all, your character has grown and acquired new skills, and the stakes have risen. Generally, players would be pretty disappointed if the final boss of a game was as easy as the first tutorial island tasks.

I'm more confused about the opposite take really, that any endgame stuff should be a cakewalk just because? People don't want to put any effort I guess?

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Originally Posted by Ath192

When you hear the phrase: Well this requires an expert. You would expect the instance to require someone who has mastered their job to some degree and a dungeon you couldn't stumble through to clearing right? I mean, that is just logical.

So for one, the labels are confusing.

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I agree that the terms are unintuitive, but only so far as they might need an external explanation to be understood, the explanation themselves are pretty straightforward, "Expert" just mean "released within the last two patches", just like how "High-level" doesn't actually means high level, it means "level that was, at one point, the level cap of the game", you could definitely argue those terms should be changed to something more sensible, whatever that would be, but that's a different issue.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Then we could get into the fact that as a game progresses there is a general expectation that you will be pitted against more challenging scenarios, after all, your character has grown and acquired new skills, and the stakes have risen. Generally, players would be pretty disappointed if the final boss of a game was as easy as the first tutorial island tasks.

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And they aren't as easy. "Tutorial island tasks" would be, what, Sastasha in comparison? and while Mistwake is easy, it is still plenty harder than most ARR dungeons, except the ones that are particularly gimmicky, it's a sliding scale, not a binary, this is a point that someone tried to bring up before and you completely dismissed.

There is the point said difficulty has plateaued, and it was pretty long ago, but due to the sheer length of XIV, it is also fair to say that a lot of people's ability to improve has also plateaued pretty long ago, so I don't know why to expect it to keep getting harder.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I'm more confused about the opposite take really, that any endgame stuff should be a cakewalk just because? People don't want to put any effort I guess?

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Personally, I don't consider dungeons, independent of level, to be "endgame" content, they may be max level, but they are still baseline content for that level, so I expect the difficulty to be baseline, and that's what I get, again there is probably an argument to "how easy is too easy", but that's not something I can answer.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

And they aren't as easy. "Tutorial island tasks" would be, what, Sastasha in comparison?.

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Actually Sastasha was harder than new dungeons because it required you to memorize a hidden note in an unassuming room and later use that clue to guess the correct color of Coral to select in the first boss room in order to open the door or you would get punished with an additional enemy.

That's a level of dungeon complexity and context awareness that is no longer required of the player in todays max level dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Actually Sastasha was harder than new dungeons because it required you to memorize a hidden note in an unassuming room and later use that clue to guess the correct color of Coral to select in the first boss room in order to open the door or you would get punished with an additional enemy.

That's a level of dungeon complexity and context awareness that is no longer required of the player in todays max level dungeons.

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If that's what you are going to try to use as an argument, it really shows you have nothing.

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

I personally feel like the real issue is trash packs not having synergy that must be broken.

I've expressed this elsewhere, but every role should feel their impact when they take on a trash pack, and "gather and aoe" should be extremely dangerous to attempt.

I want trash packs to feel more like M6S add phase (but without the brutal enrages) and less like the current normal dungeon content.

Example mob types that, when thrown together, would do this:
1 mob stacks vulns on the tank.
Another mob winds up very powerful aoes and requires interrupts.
Another will throw para or silence on the healer.
Another frenzies.
Another moves slowly and can quickly 2-shot a tank, but behaves like the "spiny" in UWU and locks onto the first person to hit it (kite it or else)
etc. etc.

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This exists in DD like PT as we have dangerous roaming and patrols for mobs on the higher floors that can 1 KO tanks, needed top be interrupted, and V&C mobs are the same idea of risk but mostly no one really cares about mobs because no one is here to fight a million annoying mobs until the final boss room. Also, it would slow down the rous enough that ppl would ditch them even more, which wouldn't be great for new players.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

If that's what you are going to try to use as an argument, it really shows you have nothing.

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Are you kidding me XD you know I had a sad realization when I was typing that because it’s true. On top of that you could do a huge pull of 12 mobs or more in the pond area.

It was more dangerous to do that than the 2 packs were limited to in new dungeons. It’s hilariously real.

The first dungeon in the game really was much more complex than the current dungeon. I don’t know why you would deny such an obvious truth since you yourself brought that dungeon up.

Oh wait… it doesn’t fit your narrative. That’s why….

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Are you kidding me XD you know I had a sad realization when I was typing that because it’s true. On top of that you could do a huge pull of 12 mobs or more in the pond area.

It was more dangerous to do that than the 2 packs were limited to in new dungeons. It’s hilariously real.

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It absolutely isn't, that first pull in the pond is pathetically easy in a world where most enemies do literally 2-3 damage and Healers have literally nothing to do in pulls other than spam their basic heal, people who try to act like ARR pulls are hard completely ignore the reality of Healer level scaling, and that it's not until Qarn that anything will threaten you, and even then only because of the bees which is a gimmick attack, and nothing genuinely hurts until Stone Vigil, this leads to most of ARR being piss easy wtw pulls where the Healer and Tank do nothing but mash a single button.

Yet here you are attempting to act like, what was it again, 2-3 more mobs that will appear only after the initial pull is done, to the point nobody cares about the note and just take their chances at the button, add any real complexity or are any more of an annoyance.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Oh wait… it doesn’t fit your narrative. That’s why….

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Please heed to your own words, it's you who is adhering to a blind narrative.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

It absolutely isn't, that first pull in the pond is pathetically easy in a world where most enemies do literally 2-3 damage and Healers have literally nothing to do in pulls other than spam their basic heal, people who try to act like ARR pulls are hard completely ignore the reality of Healer level scaling, and that it's not until Qarn that anything will threaten you, and even then only because of the bees which is a gimmick attack, and nothing genuinely hurts until Stone Vigil, this leads to most of ARR being piss easy wtw pulls where the Healer and Tank do nothing but mash a single button.

Yet here you are attempting to act like, what was it again, 2-3 more mobs that will appear only after the initial pull is done, to the point nobody cares about the note and just take their chances at the button, add any real complexity or are any more of an annoyance.

Please heed to your own words, it's you who is adhering to a blind narrative.

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You know. I don't even have to use words. We can just see it happening in this hilarious video. I will repeat, and now provide video evidence. Sastasha had bigger more complex pulls, was a more fleshed out dungeon than what have now at level 100. There were also a ton more rooms to explore, not that anyone did, but you COULD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx0FGkueY-4

As a side note, I haven't laughed as much as I did watching this video in a good while. Especially when an entire army starts chasing the last dps lmao. I cant say any of that for new dungeons -.-

That dungeon provided more fun in 1 minute than any expert dungeon does right now.

It is true to say that in terms of threat levels, I feel like dungeons have gone down pretty significantly from ARR to DT. One does not simply forget healing W2W Stone Vigil, that is an experience, on the other hand DT pulls are not memorable at all and the healer only exists as a healer if things are going horribly wrong - Or there's a DRK whose use of abyssal drain and living dead are imperfect (though for some DRK is things going horribly wrong).

Someone previously said about making mobs synergistic and I agree, nothing in a duty should be pointless (including healers) and mobs are the second most pointless things in dungeons right now. Sure they shouldn't live as long as bosses, they're not bosses, but they should at least put up a fight. If we're so all powerful that nothing CAN put up a fight against us then what are dungeons for anymore?

Dungeon design could really use some radical changes, falling asleep with the current format of 2 packs per forced stop due to doors

I think what people miss is the sense of variety and unpredictability. I would say DT dungeons have been more difficult, on average, than previous expansions, but they've also been much more rigid. And though the bosses have more complex mechanics, the novelty wears off after a while, and it becomes just as repetitive as earlier dungeons, only without the colour they used to have. Before, leniency with mobs and the satisfaction of wall to wall pulls, coupled with a more engaging environment (different rooms, pathways, mob variety, environmental damage etc.) meant there was always that element of surprise, if you like, where something unexpected could still happen and you had something to think about or focus on. It's very linear now.

And to be honest, I don't even think the extra difficulty is even fun. A lot of it is just busy DDR mechanics that overly punish minor missteps with cheap "gotcha!" attacks and don't even feel satisfying to beat. I wasn't fond of Mistwake, it still felt clunky and overworked, but it felt more evenly paced and thought out than prior dungeons.

If anything I truly agree with the OP, the sub 50 ARR dungeon design was at its peak ironically, little flaws of design notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I think what people miss is the sense of variety and unpredictability. I would say DT dungeons have been more difficult, on average, than previous expansions, but they've also been much more rigid. And though the bosses have more complex mechanics, the novelty wears off after a while, and it becomes just as repetitive as earlier dungeons, only without the colour they used to have. Before, leniency with mobs and the satisfaction of wall to wall pulls, coupled with a more engaging environment (different rooms, pathways, mob variety, environmental damage etc.) meant there was always that element of surprise, if you like, where something unexpected could still happen and you had something to think about or focus on. It's very linear now.

And to be honest, I don't even think the extra difficulty is even fun. A lot of it is just busy DDR mechanics that overly punish minor missteps with cheap "gotcha!" attacks and don't even feel satisfying to beat. I wasn't fond of Mistwake, it still felt clunky and overworked, but it felt more evenly paced and thought out than prior dungeons.

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This. The difficulty is higher in DT, and I love the ‘nervous’ aspect of the new bosses. But what's annoying is the endless ‘2 pack - 1 wall’ rhythm. As a tank, it's particularly noticeable: how boring it is after ARR! I'll use Stone Vigil as a reference again and again: despite its age, it's one of the only dungeons where I bother to really look at my healer's levelling. And I adapt my pulls accordingly, because w2w with a newbie isn't always possible.

It's this necessary adaptability that's missing in current dungeons. I don't know if it's a lack of time that dictates this shift towards such a monotonous rhythm, but if anything needs to be modified to the dungeons, it's that.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

As said in another thread - I enjoyed it. Played it with Trust (as a side-note, Sphene was a great healer) the first time I played it and found the balance about right personally.

Unpopular an opinion as this may be, I'm going to express it anyway: I'm hoping they continue to balance fights in this manner; I don't see why every boss has to be a DDR-attack fest - let those of us who prefer some balance have some fun.
I know I did.

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There's no "DDR-attack" fest anyway and it's not balance, you just have the bar low. Mentioning Sphene being a good healer when it's literally a bare bones npc is testament to that.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

This. The difficulty is higher in DT, and I love the ‘nervous’ aspect of the new bosses. But what's annoying is the endless ‘2 pack - 1 wall’ rhythm. As a tank, it's particularly noticeable: how boring it is after ARR! I'll use Stone Vigil as a reference again and again: despite its age, it's one of the only dungeons where I bother to really look at my healer's levelling. And I adapt my pulls accordingly, because w2w with a newbie isn't always possible.

It's this necessary adaptability that's missing in current dungeons. I don't know if it's a lack of time that dictates this shift towards such a monotonous rhythm, but if anything needs to be modified to the dungeons, it's that.

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More Mt. Gulg options would be nice. No one ever has to pull wall to wall there, and generally people aren't surprised or upset if you don't, but it's there for the taking if you want.

As far as trash pack synergy goes...it's there, kind of, at least in a couple dungeons. Tower of Zot has untelegraphed tankbusters and a couple critters that are higher priority to keep under control than others. Vanguard has one with a ton of magic damage that caught people off guard as well, though it's not as big a deal any more.

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Originally Posted by Teno

There's no "DDR-attack" fest anyway and it's not balance, you just have the bar low. Mentioning Sphene being a good healer when it's literally a bare bones npc is testament to that.

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Well I enjoyed it and thought it was well-balanced. I feel no shame in holding this opinion and am as entitled to my view (minus the low-key insults you couldn't resist expressing) as you are to yours :)

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Originally Posted by Astronis

More Mt. Gulg options would be nice. No one ever has to pull wall to wall there, and generally people aren't surprised or upset if you don't, but it's there for the taking if you want.

As far as trash pack synergy goes...it's there, kind of, at least in a couple dungeons. Tower of Zot has untelegraphed tankbusters and a couple critters that are higher priority to keep under control than others. Vanguard has one with a ton of magic damage that caught people off guard as well, though it's not as big a deal any more.

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I don't understand why the developers thought locking down content so it could only be played one way was the correct decision. Freedom is always the best course of action. A dungeon has to be designed with a particular clear path in mind, sure, however it must allow for its rules to be challenged and broken.

This was clear in early dungeons, where, a player and their party had to become aware of each others capabilities to make that determination for themselves. CAN we pull the whole dungeon? Dungeons also taught discipline and punishment for making the wrong decisions.

In modern dungeons there is nothing to think about. At all. Why would anyone think that is fun is beyond me. And to top it off the bosses hardly punish in a way where a wipe is likely. Do they happen? of course they do, but they are anomalies and probably accidents rather than due to the challenge the dungeon itself presents.

They are "Oh hey, I couldn't fit in 10 GCDs by the time that giant cast bar got finished casting and it killed me" deaths.

It's always been their direction. Every friction has to be removed, everything has to be on rails like a partition of guitar hero, because if everything is on rails like when you go at mcdonalds, no matter the city, it's always gonna look the same, taste the same, proceed exactly the same, and you'll pay to get the exact same formula every time without any surprise.

Well here comes the question -

Is the Dungeon designed on our needs or the developer's needs? Because it really does feel like we're playing two different games since the developers doesn't understand what the left hand is saying to the right hand.

Maybe they know, but don't care because the Developer Schedule is more important than what we want.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

More Mt. Gulg options would be nice. No one ever has to pull wall to wall there, and generally people aren't surprised or upset if you don't, but it's there for the taking if you want.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that given the amount of DPS/healers that will pull ahead to grab everything whether the tank wants to or not, or how "you pull you tank" is still a subject of contention if said tank decides they do not in fact want to pull every mob up to the boss door. Likewise you have your tanks that repeatedly try to do W2W, not knowing the capabilities of their DPS and healer, and then get mad when their lel epic speedrun went south because the rest of the team couldn't manage all the adds/damage output like they assumed.

Cue the claims from some about it being "brain dead content" so how could anyone POSSIBLY struggle or die, least of all the tank. Yet it happens, it happens enough they had to give us stackable Phoenix Downs.

It doesn't matter if something is presented as an "option" if one or more people demand it becomes required/optimized anyway. It's the same reason we get hallways now, because more people wanted to rush through and if they have the "majority kick vote" one has to comply or leave. This game in general has a problem with a playerbase that doesn't really care to cooperate, they only tolerate, and even communication is stifled with risks to one's account, so no "just ask then" because even just IMPLYING someone is going too fast or too slow can get you accused of trying to dictate someone's playstyle/harassment OR that you're engaging in lethargic play/trolling.

There's a certain irony in how they call them "Trusts" because sometimes the NPCs are the only ones you can rely on for a smooth dungeon run. And again, it happens often enough that Square-Enix didn't just stop at MSQ dungeons, they started adding the optional ones too.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I wouldn't be so sure about that given the amount of DPS/healers that will pull ahead to grab everything whether the tank wants to or not, or how "you pull you tank" is still a subject of contention if said tank decides they do not in fact want to pull every mob up to the boss door.

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I've had more DPS upset with me for pulling everything on Mt. Gulg than I have ever had anyone breathe a word to me about not doing so. And their upset extended to simply leaving without saying a word. So yeah, I'm honestly pretty sure about that. Mt. Gulg's pulls have a reputation--they're fun but people KNOW they're a challenge, so they don't get pissy if someone doesn't want to send it.

I've also never gotten a trust to successfully manage that initial pull! They keep getting caught derping around fifty miles away from me. Trusts are kinda dumb.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I've had more DPS upset with me for pulling everything on Mt. Gulg than I have ever had anyone breathe a word to me about not doing so. And their upset extended to simply leaving without saying a word. So yeah, I'm honestly pretty sure about that. Mt. Gulg's pulls have a reputation--they're fun but people KNOW they're a challenge, so they don't get pissy if someone doesn't want to send it.

I've also never gotten a trust to successfully manage that initial pull! They keep getting caught derping around fifty miles away from me. Trusts are kinda dumb.

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Same experience here to be honest... I've found typically that Mt Gulg, Doma Castle (Those long stretches), and Stone Vigil are usually dungeons where there is a bit of a risk for things being able to get a little out of hand. I've never had anyone typically complain about not big pulling for those dungeons, and opting to not intrude on tank pulls.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Same experience here to be honest... I've found typically that Mt Gulg, Doma Castle (Those long stretches), and Stone Vigil are usually dungeons where there is a bit of a risk for things being able to get a little out of hand. I've never had anyone typically complain about not big pulling for those dungeons, and opting to not intrude on tank pulls.

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Yeah, I enjoy those pulls, they're a lot of fun...but they 100% are the kind that need everyone working together, so no one runs ahead to pull extra, and no one gets fussy if people collectively stop part way. And if a full pull succeeds, everyone feels awesome, and if it doesn't, well...we tried, usually people are fine with that, though I've had a couple people get grumpy about the attempt :)

Did you know you can do it too on the last stretch before the final boss of Qitana too? It's pretty fun, especially when people don't know and drop a "wtf"

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Originally Posted by Valence

It\\'s always been their direction. Every friction has to be removed, everything has to be on rails like a partition of guitar hero, because if everything is on rails like when you go at mcdonalds, no matter the city, it\\'s always gonna look the same, taste the same, proceed exactly the same, and you\\'ll pay to get the exact same formula every time without any surprise.

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So true bro!

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I wouldn't be so sure about that given the amount of DPS/healers that will pull ahead to grab everything whether the tank wants to or not, or how "you pull you tank" is still a subject of contention if said tank decides they do not in fact want to pull every mob up to the boss door. Likewise you have your tanks that repeatedly try to do W2W, not knowing the capabilities of their DPS and healer, and then get mad when their lel epic speedrun went south because the rest of the team couldn't manage all the adds/damage output like they assumed.

Cue the claims from some about it being "brain dead content" so how could anyone POSSIBLY struggle or die, least of all the tank. Yet it happens, it happens enough they had to give us stackable Phoenix Downs.

It doesn't matter if something is presented as an "option" if one or more people demand it becomes required/optimized anyway. It's the same reason we get hallways now, because more people wanted to rush through and if they have the "majority kick vote" one has to comply or leave. This game in general has a problem with a playerbase that doesn't really care to cooperate, they only tolerate, and even communication is stifled with risks to one's account, so no "just ask then" because even just IMPLYING someone is going too fast or too slow can get you accused of trying to dictate someone's playstyle/harassment OR that you're engaging in lethargic play/trolling.

There's a certain irony in how they call them "Trusts" because sometimes the NPCs are the only ones you can rely on for a smooth dungeon run. And again, it happens often enough that Square-Enix didn't just stop at MSQ dungeons, they started adding the optional ones too.

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Here is the thing, this usually doesn't happen but people like to lord it as the golden bullet as to why we need to be controlled at all costs. Just because someone had a bad experience with toxic people and complained about it doesn't mean the entire design of a game thousands of people, if not millions play, has to change to accommodate this unusual occurrence by removing all liberties.

This is punishing the silent majority who weren't doing this. This effect starts stacking as we repeat these duties over and over and its all the same. It's mind numbing.

I personally just let the tank set the pacing and adapt to however the party's doing. I love healing Mt Gulg because every group runs those big stretches differently and that changes up your skill usage every time.

Can do the usual 2 pack pulls, could sprint through and do the entire wall to wall, could do 2 pack pulls and take out half of them before moving onto the next pack. Doing one pull at a time feels silly but if the tank is a sprout or a first timer that's also fine.

If people are being toxic you blacklist and report. It should be that simple, really.