Worqor Chirteh feedback

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Another thought on improving/encouraging more strategic play on the map would be to have the actual capture zones be bigger. Right now the zones are so small (and all on a completely flat surface) that there's very little challenge to just lumping up on them and being able to defend the whole thing if any enemy does happen to attack. I'd think it would be an improvement to have the zones be bigger with the required flags being spread further apart (and even not always all in direct LoS of each other) so some attention need would need to be paid toward actually holding the zone.

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Fully agreed. Right now it's annoying because it also seems not to prove intuitive with most casual players that stand in there doing nothing and dying. If the areas were way larger - and I'm speaking at least 15y wide - this would alleviate the issue a lot. Spread them out as well yeah.

I like the idea of forcing the opponent out of an area of control actually, but the way this works as a layout right now is a little off or frustrating. And it favors meta AoE stacking even more and I don't think this kind of meta needs further encouragement to be frank.

https://i.postimg.cc/50Z5Mtdn/image.png

Yeah, let me just...

Flames tried to secure their A rank and maybe be sandwich us since we were in the lead.
But as per usual, Flames got punished for trying something battle related (S rank spawned after they moved) and my team don't have time to adjust to a spawn on the other side of the map.

It's deflating.

Please do a hot fix and at least fix the late game spawns before you do an overhaul of the map.

Hello, reporting some feedback after trying some games post-hotfix.

Reduce the amount of A Ranks you're throwing into the match. There's so many spawning at once that I can't even consider engaging because by the time I have the thought, the nodes are captured.
Fighting for more than 5 seconds feels worthless, outside of camping whoever is first, and even then the other team will just capture any nodes on your side if you're bunched up.

Please consider reducing the frequency at which these higher rank nodes are spawning, it feels like I'm playing borderland ruins running simulator all over again, a lot of matches ended up being: run to each flag, sit in it for a few seconds and then travel to the next one with virtually no fighting.

Can also just consider not putting high value nodes on the edge of the map. It's awful when they spawn back to back on far edges. Even if your team responds to the tactical situation, it feels bad to be running around for that long. On the other hand, fringe objectives like the small ice, bases on Secure, minor nodes on Seal Rock, B ranks on Onsal, sometimes create fun small-scale engagements that let small groups of player makes big plays while the team concentrates on the bigger central objective that will take longer to grab.

I finally had a chance to play on a new map. I got about 10 games on it last night.
I really liked it. The routing, the verticality, the variation in the terrain - all very good. It will take me a bit longer to find any bugbears about the landscape. I like that snowmen change the map and create more blind corners but also change the mid.
I think the map works well with the current pvp kit.
I really like the new node capping method - I think it's probably the best addition to frontline in a long time. I disagree with those saying that the circles on the floor need expanding. I think it's right just how it is.

I do have some complaints:

• The map feels very very big. It takes way too long to get between the fights if the fight is happening on the other side of the map. The easiest solution I could think of is increasing mount speed - please consider increasing mount speed on this map (I think even a 20% increase would be great).
• As others have said, after 10 minutes the high value nodes spawning at increased rate doesn't feel great. Additionally I think there are just too many nodes spawning at the same time... It feels like it reduces the intensity of fighting due to how many nodes there are. In one game i had like 4 A ranks and 1 B rank spawn in the beginning...that's too much.
• There is a lot of announcements happening on the screen. The system announcements in the middle of the screen you can't turn off. This is same problem as secure - please make it possible to turn them off. All announcements should be able optional...it makes the interface just really cluttered otherwise.
• It seems that the weather pattern is always the same every game. I think that's a bit of a shame and it needs to be more varied. I actually haven’t yet seen the “aurora” weather because most games ended by about 13 minutes because high value nodes bring too many points.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Moving on to things that I kinda want to see... maybe more kind of weathers:D?

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All interesting suggestions that devs should look into. 6s on the snow thing is a bit too punishing... maybe the shield comes with damage over time? Think of it like zelda botw when Link takes damage when too cold.

One blatant issue : when team 1 dives team 2, team 3 usually can't join the fight to change the odds because the map is so big and by the time the 3rd team reaches the other 2 the fight is usually over. There's a bit more leeway to join the fight if the nodes are concentrated in the middle but barely.

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Originally Posted by Teno

One blatant issue : when team 1 dives team 2, team 3 usually can't join the fight to change the odds because the map is so big and by the time the 3rd team reaches the other 2 the fight is usually over. There's a bit more leeway to join the fight if the nodes are concentrated in the middle but barely.

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I wouldn't say it's just the distance team 3 needs to cover that prevents them. It's also the 4 B ranks that spawn on team 3's side of the map as they start moving to try and get involved in the fight and then later in that same match team 2 is taking the bh5s they got to farm in peace and steamrolling team 3 off of everything

Upon playing on JP & EU and having a bit more time to digest the map.
On JP an average rouletter wouldn't move to a non-node location, so I can see that SE wanted players to fight more by providing more reasons to fight. However, I think the biggest problem is that there are way too many objectives and people are content with just sitting on a side because it take ages to get anywhere.
Please reduce the amount of nodes by half, and increase the length of time it takes for capture a node so that fights have an opportunity to happen due to their scarcity and there is more of an opportunity to contest them.

I am back after more games. Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere else, but does anybody notices how the mode seemed to be causing some skill VFX to entirely disappear? I tried going into other 4 older maps and none of these happened in both "Show all" and "Limited" setting. In Worqor, irrespective to my setting, some VFXes like DNC LB, SGE LB, SCH Biolysis-Deployment Tactic, and GNB LB telegraph just straight up disappears (but the effect still applies). It gets pretty jarring IMHO.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

[...]All interesting suggestions that devs should look into. 6s on the snow thing is a bit too punishing... maybe the shield comes with damage over time? Think of it like zelda botw when Link takes damage when too cold.

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I was just throwing random arbitrary numbers there xD But the main idea is to punish overreliance on the benefit the weather provides. I can see how DoT (maybe call it frostbite) can be an alternative. But will that still benefit the non-rangeds more for their higher innate damage reduction?

I'm already sick of this map. If it were actually fun I wouldn't mind so much if it were active every day, but it's always such a mess with more people trying to run than actually engage in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I am back after more games. Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere else, but does anybody notices how the mode seemed to be causing some skill VFX to entirely disappear? I tried going into other 4 older maps and none of these happened in both "Show all" and "Limited" setting. In Worqor, irrespective to my setting, some VFXes like DNC LB, SGE LB, SCH Biolysis-Deployment Tactic, and GNB LB telegraph just straight up disappears (but the effect still applies). It gets pretty jarring IMHO.



I was just throwing random arbitrary numbers there xD But the main idea is to punish overreliance on the benefit the weather provides. I can see how DoT (maybe call it frostbite) can be an alternative. But will that still benefit the non-rangeds more for their higher innate damage reduction?

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Yeah I've noticed that too adding on DRG LBs to your list as well from what I've seen. Not sure why it occurs in the first place.

The lack of VFX was mentioned before, as was numerous annoying sticking points in the terrain. Anyway.

I want to say that maybe slapping on some base cap points while dropping node spawn rates right down might lead to … something? Maybe not even at bases but... maybe having three static nodes somewhere equalized on the map would alleviate some of the aimless running around guessing where something new will spawn on the larger playing surface of this map, if you have somewhere available to contest at all times or almost. This chasing of nodes in this style at the moment is not really doing the rounds, from what it sounds. Too ambient.

Apart from mildly altering the capping style, the current gameplay design rings kind of lazily done. I figure a lot like Onsal (I don't personally) because that middle node, when it appears, acts as a quasi perma state of convergence. Somehow I imagine if you were to remove that node from Onsal, and it gets allocated the same loose spread of the new map, it'd get a lot more "boring" as well. What I'm thinking of is more akin to OG FoG. And SR works I guess because the nodes can be recapped, while having a similar "scatter and find the nodes" gameplay. So the quandary with this map looks to be hovering around the misguided stitching together of current BG styles.

I have no basis for this idea, if you can even call it that, since I haven't gone beyond my initial five rounds from a week ago, much less with the new zero downtime respawning. Not even spitballing, just some random thoughts. Maybe a mob that can be contested somewhere that will rampage once claimed ala Hidden Gorge even? I don't know but it feels like it's the lacking prominent contention points that's an issue for flow. Think there needs to be a secondary layer of objective busywork somewhere. The premise of the map lacks meat with the speed of takeovers and bids to move on. The weather effects add too little. Something needs refining.

/ramble

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Originally Posted by echo78

Also hey devs, I have a zero effort PVP map that you could make! Just take the middle of onsal and make it a team deathmatch map. Would be much better.

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We used to have deathmatch map, it was called The Borderland Ruins (Slaughter), but the devs remove it.

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Originally Posted by ThreeBeastSmile

I want to say that maybe slapping on some base cap points while dropping node spawn rates right down might lead to … something? Maybe not even at bases but... maybe having three static nodes somewhere equalized on the map would alleviate some of the aimless running around guessing where something new will spawn on the larger playing surface of this map, if you have somewhere available to contest at all times or almost. This chasing of nodes in this style at the moment is not really doing the rounds, from what it sounds. Too ambient.

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My thoughts on Triumph currently is that they need to increase the spawn rate / value of nodes at/around Mid slightly and reduce the spawn rate / value of nodes outside of mid. Mid, especially during the ice phase is a trap for pinches (kinda like shatter mid, but even more dangerous).

This would force people to interact without having to travel miles (kinda like onsal mid always being A/S rank). I've had a number of games where contesting mid points happened on top of the cliff rather than on the point, when teams are trying to counterpinch each other.
This is quite good and can be quite fun with multiple routing options that are currently available.

Spawning random S rank in the cave to the east or hill on the west & north should be very very rare, or shouldn't happen at all as it's just skews the RNG too much.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

Spawning random S rank in the cave to the east or hill on the west & north should be very very rare, or shouldn't happen at all as it's just skews the RNG too much.

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So much this. Absolutely deflating when you want to engage in actual pvp and contest points and you get punished cause rng decides to spawn an A and a S far side of the map.
This map is awful at times. It rewards staying back, not pvping and just waiting for the other two teams to engage and 3rd team just roll on uncontested nodes.

Feels like a lot of "run run run" and then"run". The damage numbers for entire teams usually look low.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

It rewards staying back, not pvping and just waiting for the other two teams to engage and 3rd team just roll on uncontested nodes.

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I have a bit of a point of friction with the snowsoldier that spawns in the middle of the map because of this. It's kinda like shatter ice - a trap for 2 alliances that arrive first.

Whilst I think it's interesting that due to him being there it changes the routing in mid, it makes rotation around the mid basically impossible and rewards somewhat passive gameplay. I have already been trapped next to him once out of carelessness, and /return to escape...
I would much prefer for the route to be more open. You can even make him appear/disappear during the snow phase, rather than being a static block to the route.

p.s.
Of course if your team is good you can farm the first/second team that arrives, and push through them to get to the ramp and counterpinch the team that arrives last from top of the hill. But...if your team is that strong, it doesn't really matter what map layout is :D

It has been more than 4 weeks of absolute dominance of tank premades, terrible map rotation, and not even a singular acknowledgement from SE.
At least, could they give us shortcuts, it's not pvp, it's run simulator

It is bound to slaughter the frontline population and behaviors on all maps by promoting PVE only mentality in frontline.

Could we, at least, have a word on the time it'll stay as primary map of the rotation ?

i think the focus of the A and S rank ovuums should be more towards the center with the high value spawns and very few low B rank ovuums with the occassional a Rank on the outside. It should absolutely be a brawl in the middle the longer the match goes on.

The weather is ok I think its a bit over kill with the shield buffs during the snow phase though. I like the aurora phase though its nice to have a LB charge boost.

Done about 20 matches and I like this map a fair bit. I don't think it's as good as onsal, and maybe not as good as seal rock but it's close. It is at least drastically better than Shatter or Secure so I don't want to complain too much. That said, I do think the map layout is ill-thought out to some degree. If you are at a middle node and an outer node spawns, the pathing you have to take to get there is asinine.

https://i.imgur.com/0YdxHYM.png

Like this is just silly. Look at those routes. If I were going to fix the map, I would probably add more spokes, so to speak, allowing more direct pathing to the outter nodes but still keeping a bunch of natural chokepoints.

I also agree that S ranks should heavily bias the center spawns and not the safe outer spawns.

I think SealRock is good because you can recapture nodes. If you could recapture "Triumphs" (what a name..), albeit slower (100% increased capture time) after it has been captured once completely, it would make things different. But that would require them to tick slower (longer uptime) and take out the speed of spawning new ones. Making it possible for people to actually fight for them. Seal Rock nodes take like what, a whole minute or longer to deplete? I think its like 5% each 3s tick so at least a minute...

As someone else already mentioned, map Q&A.
- When you go up the ramp to the capture points, I think the SouthWest one has this small rock debris as a little barrier directly in its path. This fucks up gapcloser abilities. I lost a match because I couldn't gapclose and dragoon LB into the crowd claiming it.
- Then there are small elements like waypoint markers or little shrine looking things on the road - if you run besides them you can get stuck on them too. Their surface should be made smooth.
- I think it is similar with the pillar structures around one of the Adder spawn point. Their surface is uneven.
- Also think the map needs a visual indicator when you can go up the ramp again, when you fell off to the sides from the top in the North. Like when it is physically possible to jump on the ramp again from the side. This is a place where you could put rocks, where you cant. And then have nothing where its possible for players to jump on it again, because its even enough to pass.

Warrior Limit Break wasn't really made with Z-Axis in mind or? It is supposed to be a frontal cone. But it feels like it lacks height/volume. It is hard to test on dummies that are on a flat surface. You are often unable to execute warrior LB because the target is a little above or under you. I think I would even change it to be a 10-15y point blank aoe originating from the warrior itself, which would align well with their other type of warrior skills.
A point blank aoe will hit targets who are on the same ramp at different Z-Axis levels. A frontal cone apparently won't?

I propose the map be called "Run". Maybe I'm being too harsh. Maybe a map where you run most of the time won't be so bad if we didn't have to play it every day. It might even be refreshing when things get back to normal.

No matter the mode, the most fun part of FL is when you get into large scale all-Alliances epic disputed fights for very long minutes ! The new map gets interesting opportunities for this, within the ~5% of games getting those big fights (because teams, skills, and luck!), with the help of its multiple ambush points <3

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Originally Posted by aereniil

The new map gets interesting opportunities for this, within the ~5% of games getting those big fights

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Seal Rock and Onsal forces that every few minutes though usually. With this new map there is little incentive to surprise an enemy from behind, if it is too far away, you just miss out on new capture points. I don't think the new map is bad, just needs to give PvP a few more seconds to develop, before new capture points spawn already.
People just never feel how many points they make by killing other players. It is not very transparent to the newbie.

Kind of feel like the developer wish the developer would just would use 2 factions versus instead of 3 just make it simple. Also feel like this map is to big with objective to run to and should be smaller to engage in fights. Also middle of the map rather have the S rank there instead of the large blocking snowman would make some interesting engagement to fight in that 3 way bridge. Other random pop up snowman is okay, maybe fix the terrain or put up more hill to hide behind for ambushing possible escape.

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Originally Posted by Chiyeko

Also middle of the map rather have the S rank there instead of the large blocking snowman would make some interesting engagement to fight in that 3 way bridge..

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Now that they got rid of capturing a point by interacting with it with a cast bar etc. something that could have gone for a whole match in Onsal, they remove the middle point action, even when the new capture system would make a stop to that. It is a bit odd indeed.
The map is the same size, just the action happens around the edges mostly, which makes it feel big. They either need to slow the capturing, make points recapturable, or delay new spawns - to give people more time, if they want to keep the map edge capture points. Or shift the focus onto the center points more.

Same way they could upgrade Onsal to this new capture system.

The more i play this map, on top of all the grievances, what truly is starting to piss me off is since games are so lopsided on score, they all tend to complete within or even under the 10min mark. This is incredibly frustrating, it's barely started that it's already over with not much accomplished.

I've been in matches now where the winning team (including my own) literally had no kills/barely any damage because node spawns favored our side of the map in such a way while the other two teams were constantly fighting each other over lower rank scraps.

Even would-be pinches would get cancelled/ignored mid-attempt because people would rather chase new nodes than fight over current ones, including the ever popular "there's only 3 dudes here and 16+ of us, lets kill them and take the node... wait, where's everyone going? Oh... another uncontested node spawned nearby..." This map, even more than Shatter, really emphasizes how much people don't want to PVP with the amount of wild 180s I've seen even when one team had the numerical advantage and could have swarmed easily.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Seal Rock and Onsal forces that every few minutes though usually. With this new map there is little incentive to surprise an enemy from behind, if it is too far away, you just miss out on new capture points. I don't think the new map is bad, just needs to give PvP a few more seconds to develop, before new capture points spawn already.
People just never feel how many points they make by killing other players. It is not very transparent to the newbie.

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Indeed, on Worqor Chirteh, you’re way less likely to get those huge, long, epic mass brawls I love… but when they do happen on that map, it's an absolute adrenaline bliss. :cool: Such brawls on Seal Rock and Onsal can be fun too, sure, but the vibe just isn’t the same for me.

In big fights on Seal Rock/Onsal, I feel like there’s often less tension and less room for creativity, mostly because you don’t have as much freedom:

• to move around enemy groups (Seal Rock gives more options than Onsal at least)
• to successfully retreat when you’re getting sandwiched. On Worqor Chirteh, you don't only get the classic "pull back" : sometimes, if your team is smart enough, you can more easily exploit the multiple existing pathways to counter-ambush and even flip the attack (it's not often, but it happens)
• to physically break target lines while keeping vision. It’s always fun using rocks to block melee/ranged attacks while still being able to quickly counterattack.
• to pull off surprise jumps from incongruous angles. I love the verticality on Worqor Chirteh. It’s not ridiculously high like Borderland Ruins or (less so) Onsal, but it’s also not flat enough to make you feel uselessly too exposed or not take jump damage if you're too reckless.
• Also… Fields of Glory forcing you to periodically destroy crystals kinda (too) abruptly kills the flow of fights. It interrupts the momentum when things are getting spicy.
• Not having to interact with Fields of Triumph, and generally only needing one person inside each, makes taking/contesting objectives feel way more direct and action-focused than Onsal, Seal Rock (Seize), and even Borderland Ruins

Honestly, huge props to SE for Worqor Chirteh’s map design too:

• A fair amount of useful, balanced cover/obstacles (rocks, snowmen, structures)
• And just overall really good terrain/structure potential, like: bridges + choke points that make AoEs surprisingly deadly, terraces/hills with stairs/ramps letting you angle attacks from the sides (especially AoEs and LBs), multiple solid snipe vantage points, and some natural relief that helps hide incoming sandwiches

The Weather field effects are well made too and generally useful if correctly exploited:

• The Snowmen (Snow Soldiers): offer additional obstacles to shield yourself, hide players in ambush, or move around to strike the weaker rear guard. I've seen many players (DNC, RDM, SGE, and so on) turn the tide of a fight by smartly using them.
• Blessed Blast: these shields give us squishy DPS and healers (even) more confidence/chances to stay in front or move further ahead to deal damage and LBs, and to launch our Status Effects/Crowd Control abilities, while tanks become even more unkillable (for the best and the worst, forcing damaging enemies to adapt their targets/focus, strategies, and/or positions).
• Auroras: the LB buff is valuable to increase the intensity and rhythm of group fights (even more if stacked with the other LB bonuses).

And the fact that these bonuses/effects are only temporary and occur at different moments during the game makes teams/players (or at least the not so many people that are motivated enough to do so) adapt their strategies and priorities.

Of course, Worqor Chirteh is far from perfect:

• The spawn rate and number of Triumphs are too high: this makes most games a boring marathon-only fest, where, at worst, the least motivated players on at least one team just run from node to node while avoiding any kind of fight/resistance (not a problem to take objectives, but sometimes you don't need the whole team on uncontested nodes!).
• Like Onsal (but in a worse version), the fact that S-rank Triumphs appear more often after a certain point in time on this bigger map gives too much room to RNG/luck. The favored (and not always lower-ranked) team, if it gets lucky and ends up far away from the core of the fights at the time, can get the node without any resistance - sometimes even if the other teams react as soon as the S-rank pop. When two S-ranks pop, good luck not having one team get a free capture with zero contest, and not having your team split chaotically. Combined with the first flaw above, the randomness and spawn rate of S-ranks also incentivize less smart teams (and players) to brainlessly greed and rush these nodes, even when it means giving up a winning fight or running into a relatively easily foreseeable sandwich trap due to the S-rank’s position (especially for the winning team).
• With the current objective scoring, the spawn rates of S-rank Triumphs are also too unbalanced, considering how many games end very fast compared to other maps as soon as they pop.

This is solidly the worst map in frontline, despite some interesting design choices regarding weather and verticality. The combination of long travel times and quick objective spawns incentivizes people who dislike PvP and join only for EXP/season pass rewards to essentially play PvE fetch quest mingame instead of actually fighting.

Like it or not, many of the players who queue for these rewards are not interested in learning the type of skills required to be good at PvP (map awareness, repositioning without retreating, objective priority). Other maps solve this to varying levels of success - shatter and secure have mid objectives that will cause three teams to gravitate to a central location for enough time for teamfights to occur, onsal points are easy to deny causing engagements to become protracted, and seal rock points are reclaimable. Worqor's objectives are closest to Onsal's but simply driving an opponent back creates enough space for a quick claim. This failure to create a combat focus for the easily distracted allows people who have no interest in PvP (and they are quick to tell you if you try and call for a pinch) to justify embarking their hunt train halfway across the map to try and steal an A-rank near the enemy base, a doomed venture.

The proof is in the damage numbers, which are wretched compared to other modes. It's incredibly common to see games end with maybe one person in your entire alliance breaking the 1m damage mark. Anyone defending this mode, please tell me on what other map this happens routinely.

I know some premade groups and shotcallers who are having great success, but as a dedicated solo queuer who likes to fight (but not at the cost of winning, obviously), Worqor has been without a doubt, the consistently worst experience since Endwalker's PvP rework. To be clear, I don't mind losing. But if we're not even going to put up a fight, then the mode is wasting my time.

everyone is getting the same vibe;
'running around, few encounter and game ended before u know it.... '(but still....still good map)

Just played a worqor where not a single person got to a million damage. Average was around 300K. I have never seen that on other maps, ever.

It is beyond hilarious that square advertised this map as "promoting PVP play," when it is literally the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by aereniil

Indeed, on Worqor Chirteh, you’re way less likely to get those huge, long, epic mass brawls I love… but when they do happen on that map, it's an absolute adrenaline bliss. :cool: Such brawls on Seal Rock and Onsal can be fun too, sure, but the vibe just isn’t the same for me.

In big fights on Seal Rock/Onsal, I feel like there’s often less tension and less room for creativity, mostly because you don’t have as much freedom:

• to move around enemy groups (Seal Rock gives more options than Onsal at least)
• to successfully retreat when you’re getting sandwiched. On Worqor Chirteh, you don't only get the classic "pull back" : sometimes, if your team is smart enough, you can more easily exploit the multiple existing pathways to counter-ambush and even flip the attack (it's not often, but it happens)
• to physically break target lines while keeping vision. It’s always fun using rocks to block melee/ranged attacks while still being able to quickly counterattack.
• to pull off surprise jumps from incongruous angles. I love the verticality on Worqor Chirteh. It’s not ridiculously high like Borderland Ruins or (less so) Onsal, but it’s also not flat enough to make you feel uselessly too exposed or not take jump damage if you're too reckless.
• Also… Fields of Glory forcing you to periodically destroy crystals kinda (too) abruptly kills the flow of fights. It interrupts the momentum when things are getting spicy.
• Not having to interact with Fields of Triumph, and generally only needing one person inside each, makes taking/contesting objectives feel way more direct and action-focused than Onsal, Seal Rock (Seize), and even Borderland Ruins

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Yeah that's why I was saying earlier in the thread that my initial impression was that the map layout has a lot of potential, but it's kneecapped by the way objectives are set and paced that literally work against it.

As for Auroras I wish I even saw them those days, most games are done in 10min or lower, and Auroras happen around the 10min mark. It barely starts that games are already over, often with a third team not even reaching 300 pts.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yeah that's why I was saying earlier in the thread that my initial impression was that the map layout has a lot of potential, but it's kneecapped by the way objectives are set and paced that literally work against it.

As for Auroras I wish I even saw them those days, most games are done in 10min or lower, and Auroras happen around the 10min mark. It barely starts that games are already over, often with a third team not even reaching 300 pts.

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I get what you mean about Auroras, indeed. Proportionally, I rarely see them happen before the game ends too - at this point, I’ve seen them in no more than ~50 games out of 300. Then again, maybe this only applies to the few overaddicted people like me who only do Frontline in FFXIV for weeks, all day (4-25 games per day), just to be able to witness/enjoy more of them (even though I obviously don’t spam FL for the Auroras alone xD). That’s a pity, because when Auroras happen, the effects can be game-changing (and the visuals aren’t bad either, for PvP).

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Originally Posted by KBK

Just played a worqor where not a single person got to a million damage. Average was around 300K. I have never seen that on other maps, ever.

It is beyond hilarious that square advertised this map as "promoting PVP play," when it is literally the exact opposite.

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Having played hundreds of games on this map, I can confirm that 1M damage does happen (I’ve sometimes gotten it myself too, while not even being the top damaging player). However, I admit it’s proportionally much rarer than on other maps. It’s even rarer to see more than 1 or 2 people deal that much damage (plus FL matchmaking is most of the time unremediably unbalanced and unfair).

Still, from all the end-of-match reports, I feel like people (even novices like me) get relatively more assists and easier opportunities on this map to contribute to the team than just through huge damage (again: abilities, individual strategies, status effects, and crowd control).

I wasn’t per se interested in watching the advertisements about “promoting PvP play” on this map, but maybe that’s what SE meant - or at least aimed for: more team cooperation, on the rare occasions people actually want it to happen in games, rather than heavier damage than on other maps (though I may be wrong about SE’s intentions).

It's just my opinion, but the best part of PvP (at least on FL) isn’t just about winning/losing or dealing huge damage/kills. Even games where my team stomped with a massive score lead can be boring (on any map), sometimes just as much - or even more - than getting crushed 500–1400 in a team that barely tried anything.

I’ve also had many losses that were among the most fun games, when my leading-score team had to fiercely fight 2v1 for minutes while enemies sneaked objectives behind: every team fought valiantly, we lost, but the fun and thrill were there (alleviating the eventual regrets).

Should’ve called it ‘Walklong Chirteh’ with how much of a walking/running sim it ends up being.

*canned laughter*

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Originally Posted by Connor

Should’ve called it ‘Walklong Chirteh’ with how much of a walking/running sim it ends up being.

*canned laughter*

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Haha nice one xD I get that people dislike running and walking, most of the running on this map is awfuly boring. This map is certainly too big. But when people make a surprisingly bold/smart move through this "running", then it is fun (like unexpectedly getting into the heart of enemy base from the other side of the map) and it fairly forces respect for the opponent or your team.

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Originally Posted by KBK

Just played a worqor where not a single person got to a million damage. Average was around 300K. I have never seen that on other maps, ever.

It is beyond hilarious that square advertised this map as "promoting PVP play," when it is literally the exact opposite.

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Player Vs Pavement. I can see the confusion.

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Originally Posted by Maldbeast

Like it or not, many of the players who queue for these rewards are not interested in learning the type of skills required to be good at PvP (map awareness, repositioning without retreating, objective priority).

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I get your point, and I won't criticize you, you totally get some right points.
But to those players " who queue for these rewards " and "are not interested in learning the type of skills required to be good at PvP ", I'd like to say :

It's not even about being good at PvP or the best.. Even though it's not true, let's assume I'm "not interested in learning the type of skills required to be good at PvE" and "only here for the rewards". I will come into your Party Finder's and Duty Finder's parties (for Extreme trials, Deep Dungeon parties, Field Operation parties, and even more casual group contents), and I will start to throw your games because I will show that I am :

- not motivated to learn about the abilities and skills of my job
- not motivated to learn or at least try to adapt throughout the duty (even as a first timer). It's not even about successfully improve during the game, just showing a lack of motivation
- not motivated to read or even build muscle memory over patterns of a game (PvP would have "have your map open", "avoid traps", "not chasing when too risky", "not camping uncontested nodes", "can I or can I not try to move there or around/ahead", and so many more or less little things that may make the difference)
- not motivated to even ask (I'd say in-duty but busy/grumpy people may not answer or will trash, so at least ask off-duty when you don't know). Similarly, if some players would even read or watch guides and videos about PvE duties, what blocks them to watch videos, guides, or even just the in-game PvP help infos about the modes, the way they are meant to be played, or at the very least how to play your own job(s) in PvP (even just the tooltips are a good start).

- moreover, if some (hopefully few) of these people don't feel any kind of remorse or discomfort about contributing to hinder the team's efforts, because they're just here to get the bonuses, no matter the result and because "there is no point in even trying", then it'll be a huge disrespect to everyone else and to those who want to try (plus, unlike PvE, there will always be a non-premature end to PvP duties, no 'abandon' after wipe, or at least in FL)
- if some people complain (rightly or wrongly) about not waiting for sprouts' cutscenes because it doesn't respect everyone's time, then would it be ok not to respect the same time and efforts in PvP ?
-not motivated up to the point where it affects the party/clear, or even it griefs (not considering when others are compensating)

==> If I do all of these, then you'll just leave, resent me, kick me, blacklist me, or even insult me if you can. It would be a nightmare to play for everyone else. So why wouldn't it also apply* in PvP ? (*Because FFXIV is not a game that is heavily focused on PvP content ? Is it a fair enough reason ?)

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Originally Posted by aereniil

[things, good things]

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Got nothing to add to the current discourse, just wanted to swing by to say it's refreshing to see some clean 'n' unpretentious passion being expressed for the mode (or PvP values in general). Some more unvarnished takes can be a bit... too rough and jagged in the delivery. Wish there was more of it about, and I agree.