Please, no more Wuk Lamat

Throwing another tantrum about the few seconds in the trailer, are we?

Once Dawntrail is over it's not like you're going to see her outside small, unvoiced appearances in like 8.4 or 8.5 or role quests and the like. You know, like most other expansion-centric characters. (Gosetsu, Lyse, Fordola, Ryne, etc). This would've happened no matter how well she was received, mostly because she's... well, kind of done? She's not a Scion, so she doesn't get the privilege of not going through any changes and still getting MSQ screen time. They could make her a scion, but... yeah, I don't see that happening in a million years.

The Rite of Succession is over and she has to govern a whole ass country alongside her brother. My point is, whether you like or dislike her, there's no real need to defend her or complain about her anymore. This part of the story is done, and just like we've left behind once very important characters (outside of cameos and small appearances), we're leaving her and I think to a much bigger extent Koana behind as well.

They need to come with some time travel 'ish and have the whole dawntrail island nuked from the map like the characters and the expansion never existed and start from scratch.

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Originally Posted by MoonNoire

Once Dawntrail is over it's not like you're going to see her outside small, unvoiced appearances in like 8.4 or 8.5 or role quests and the like. You know, like most other expansion-centric characters. (Gosetsu, Lyse, Fordola, Ryne, etc). This would've happened no matter how well she was received, mostly because she's... well, kind of done? She's not a Scion, so she doesn't get the privilege of not going through any changes and still getting MSQ screen time. They could make her a scion, but... yeah, I don't see that happening in a million years.

The Rite of Succession is over and she has to govern a whole ass country alongside her brother. My point is, whether you like or dislike her, there's no real need to defend her or complain about her anymore. This part of the story is done, and just like we've left behind once very important characters (outside of cameos and small appearances), we're leaving her and I think to a much bigger extent Koana behind as well.

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Considering the fact that those who disliked/hated Endwalker complained about it in a thread here for over two years I'd say the chances of the complaints around Dawntrail/Wuk Lamat stopping anytime soon are extremely slim.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Would you be saying that if the VA wasn't transgender?

I don't think so.

So many things are going to be blamed on her if this goes as I expect.

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I play in french, where Wul is not dubbed by a trans woman. I share most complaints on the character. Japanese and German, the 2 others dub also basically got the same feedbacks. How do you explain that?

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

I play in french, where Wul is not dubbed by a trans woman. I share most complaints on the character. Japanese and German, the 2 others dub also basically got the same feedbacks. How do you explain that?

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Compared to the German dub, Wuk's English voice is more... "pleasant".

Altering the flow of the story just to appeal the loud collective of armchair writers seems like a good way to kill the story altogether.

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

Not my favorite character But l honestly don't get the hate

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Some people have grown too accustomed to overstimulation from current media format and, now, they can't realize the absurdity of throwing a tantrum and making heated demands, all concerning a fictional character.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Some people have grown too accustomed to overstimulation from current media format and, now, they can't realize the absurdity of throwing a tantrum and making heated demands, all concerning a fictional character.

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People asking for proper story telling in a story driven game. The audacity!

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

People asking for proper story telling in a story driven game. The audacity!

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The "proper story telling": remove this character because I hate it.

That's all the demand boils down to.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Altering the flow of the story just to appeal the loud collective of armchair writers seems like a good way to kill the story altogether.

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The story has been dead since 7.0 and 7.3 has been CBU3 going "NONONONO" and sticking xiv with a defibrillator over and over, going by the teaser at the end of the patch's MSQ
I don't think they need the community's help since they seem perfectly capable of killing their game on their own

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Originally Posted by MoonNoire

The story has been dead since 7.0 and 7.3 has been CBU3 going "NONONONO" and sticking xiv with a defibrillator over and over, going by the teaser at the end of the patch's MSQ
I don't think they need the community's help since they seem perfectly capable of killing their game on their own

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I've read enough "solutions" for the story from the "community" to know that, for a blessing, the story hasn't hit rock bottom and the "concerned players regarding the story" think way more highly of themselves than they should. But that's how it works in every community, everyone thinks they can do better (and, unsurprisingly enough, none of them has actually tried to write a story, let along one that holds against honest scrutiny) than the author. Here, it's just more of the same.

People have always deified FFXIV storytelling when, at the very best, it's just nice but usually averages in the lukewarm territory. And, yet, armchair writers believe they can actually improve while posting god-awfully simplistic and poorly structured solutions.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

I've read enough "solutions" for the story from the "community" to know that, for a blessing, the story hasn't hit rock bottom and the "concerned players regarding the story" think way more highly of themselves than they should. But that's how it works in every community, everyone thinks they can do better (and, unsurprisingly enough, none of them has actually tried to write a story, let along one that holds against honest scrutiny) than the author. Here, it's just more of the same.

People have always deified FFXIV storytelling when, at the very best, it's just nice but usually averages in the lukewarm territory. And, yet, armchair writers believe they can actually improve while posting god-awfully simplistic and poorly structured solutions.

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They're so used to be the main character it's become chronic.
There is nothing wrong with being the hero in a story, but it's still fiction.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

I've read enough "solutions" for the story from the "community" to know that, for a blessing, the story hasn't hit rock bottom and the "concerned players regarding the story" think way more highly of themselves than they should. But that's how it works in every community, everyone thinks they can do better (and, unsurprisingly enough, none of them has actually tried to write a story, let along one that holds against honest scrutiny) than the author. Here, it's just more of the same.

People have always deified FFXIV storytelling when, at the very best, it's just nice but usually averages in the lukewarm territory. And, yet, armchair writers believe they can actually improve while posting god-awfully simplistic and poorly structured solutions.

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There is a lot of assumptions here. Can't talk for everyone but I certainly won't pretend I can write a better story. It may be a past time of mine in tabletop and whatnot, but I'm not a professional writer. All I can do is give feedback on something I really didn't like, or point at what I consider to be dramatic flaws.
I also never considered that getting rid of that one character would suddenly fix all the issues, since I consider them to be inherent to the writing choices and the target audience shift in the tone.
I'm not here to give "solutions for the story". Not my job. Perhaps if you could actually point me at which solutions were offered that you refer to here it would actually help, because so far it only sounds like strawmaning?

You can call people arrogant all your like, that doesn't make less so of an ad personam that doesn't even bring anything constructive.

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Originally Posted by Valence

There is a lot of assumptions here. Can't talk for everyone but I certainly won't pretend I can write a better story. It may be a past time of mine in tabletop and whatnot, but I'm not a professional writer. All I can do is give feedback on something I really didn't like, or point at what I consider to be dramatic flaws.
I also never considered that getting rid of that one character would suddenly fix all the issues, since I consider them to be inherent to the writing choices and the target audience shift in the tone.
I'm not here to give "solutions for the story". Not my job. Perhaps if you could actually point me at which solutions were offered that you refer to here it would actually help, because so far it only sounds like strawmaning?

You can call people arrogant all your like, that doesn't make less so of an ad personam that doesn't even bring anything constructive.

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You assume I'm speaking about you specifically and not about the several posts in this and other threads that get their panties in a twist about one fictional character the "community" (aka the loudest criers) turned into a scapegoat because the expansion story wasn't up to their standards. Wouldn't be calling them "armchair writers" if they didn't literally tried to pilot the story themselves (and this thread has enough proof of that).

Trying to list fallacies from the list doesn't make them exist out of thin air (not to mention that's, on itself, a fallacy). And just becuase it's feedback doesn't mean it's uncontestable or infallible. Feedback can be flawed and can be contested. And that would be assuming throwing the umpteenth tantrum about Wuk Lamat has any actual constructive criticism on it, which is a considerable stretch. Letting the noisiest complainers lead the stage totally unopposed is, by far and large, more destructive than "calling names".

But if you want it nice and simple, there you go, for everyone: Stop trying to pilot the story. It's already messy when it changes hands, even more when it comes from an outsider (a.k.a. the reader).

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

But if you want it nice and simple, there you go, for everyone: Stop trying to pilot the story. It's already messy when it changes hands, even more when it comes from an outsider (a.k.a. the reader).

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I don't believe anyone made you the authority on what people are or aren't allowed to do or criticize, but I could've missed the meeting

DT Turned me into a cutscene skipper. I have literally no idea what's going on in the post game

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Making wuk Lamat as a main character while making our own character as a side character was biggest mistake they ever made that simply destroying entire story of Dawntrail and i simply hope we will never see Wuk Lamat again after Dawntrail.

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I don't even care that the WoL took a backseat but doing that so that we could have 20 hours of Wuk Lamat talking over every other character in the MSQ was completely insane

Offscreening Krile's most important reveal so we could spend more time with Wuk and then having her whine about how bored she was in Living Memory when we actually were focused on another character for 3 quests was some truly incredible writing

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Originally Posted by MoonNoire

The story has been dead since 7.0 and 7.3 has been CBU3 going "NONONONO" and sticking xiv with a defibrillator over and over, going by the teaser at the end of the patch's MSQ
I don't think they need the community's help since they seem perfectly capable of killing their game on their own

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7.1-7.3 have been CBU3 setting up the next expac. Like they always do. For crying out loud, there was plenty wrong with Dawntrail, but it categorically did NOT kill the story and then leave the writers scrambling for a way to fix it. Dawntrail had plothooks for future events dangling about thick as a fleet of crowded fishing boats and everything in the post-patches has been picking up on those to follow up on.

What the post-patches have done is demonstrate that the devs heard LOUD and CLEAR about how we (generally) feel about certain aspects of the story and they adjusted as much as is reasonable within the confines of stories that were already written by the time they caught all of our blowback. If they still want to tells stories about the WoL stepping back a bit and making sure there are more shoulders around than just his to bear the weight of the world, they know now that making us 'Speak to Wuk Lamat' isn't the way to tell it.

Was amused during the game awards where FFXIV was represented by Wuk Lamat saying something lame and then they lost the award they were nominated for.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

You assume I'm speaking about you specifically and not about the several posts in this and other threads that get their panties in a twist about one fictional character the "community" (aka the loudest criers) turned into a scapegoat because the expansion story wasn't up to their standards. Wouldn't be calling them "armchair writers" if they didn't literally tried to pilot the story themselves (and this thread has enough proof of that).

Trying to list fallacies from the list doesn't make them exist out of thin air (not to mention that's, on itself, a fallacy). And just becuase it's feedback doesn't mean it's uncontestable or infallible. Feedback can be flawed and can be contested. And that would be assuming throwing the umpteenth tantrum about Wuk Lamat has any actual constructive criticism on it, which is a considerable stretch. Letting the noisiest complainers lead the stage totally unopposed is, by far and large, more destructive than "calling names".

But if you want it nice and simple, there you go, for everyone: Stop trying to pilot the story. It's already messy when it changes hands, even more when it comes from an outsider (a.k.a. the reader).

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Then contest the feedback instead of posturing in the air by pointing at "armchair writers" (whoever they may be) and "solutions" (whatever they may be)? You're literally coming here, saying that the thread is full of bad writers and bad solutions but you're leaving it at that. We're not gifted mind readers, nobody will know what you're actually referring to. If you want to oppose the noisiest complainers then actually oppose them on what they're saying you know? Because so far I still have no idea what criticism you're trying to address and the only thing you've been doing is calling people names.

On piloting the story: I'm sure the writers are adults and smart enough not to just implement whatever random idea is brought over with no thought whatsoever. And if you're worried for them to listen to said feedback anyway, then see above and contest it and explain why it's bad.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well firstly, SE has a formula for everything. Typically, we overthrow a government and then instate one of our own. In this expansion, we instate Wuk Lamat and Koana, while in previous expansions we instated Jullus/Maxima/Lucia/etc, Chai-Nuzz, Raubahn, Hien and Aymeric, respectively, to each of the governments we overthrew. We typically don't see the leaders we instate very often, sometimes for absolutely years, and they are usually just cameo appearances. When was the last time we even saw Aymeric or Chai-Nuzz? Even Hien was a long time ago at this point. We likely won't see Wuk Lamat again for many years. At best we've seen her in sidequests, but these can be ignored or skipped.

The second thing really is that it is ultimately a point of view whether Wuk Lamat was annoying. For example, personally, I felt a good relationship with her in a story sense. It was a bit odd for her to come along to Heritage Found with us, and the worst part was breaking free when we were defeating the last boss since that's our thing and she didn't have that sort of experience yet. They did make her answer things that would be better answered by us or the scions due to our experience, but not entirely at least.

I think another thing that people seem to think is annoying is the voice. It seems it's an either you like it or you don't kind of thing. Personally, I loved the voice so it wasn't a problem for me. I felt like it was the perfect female version of the male Hrothgar voices we've had. If you listen to the accent on all the male Hrothgar, you can see that same sort of accent on Wuk Lamat, so I appreciated that consistency.

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I don't even remember who Chai-Nuzz is. How long ago was this character?

But yeah, may we never see Puke Lamat ever again.

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Originally Posted by Korrcen

I don't even remember who Chai-Nuzz is. How long ago was this character?

But yeah, may we never see Puke Lamat ever again.

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Shadowbringers. Eulmore

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Shadowbringers. Eulmore

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If they cannot even recall Chai and Dulia, Shadowbringers' most pleasant couple ...

Man.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Semi related but I'm surprised there wasn't more pushback over her and Sphene spending half the latest story chatting with each other and then comboing to break down the aether barrier. Maybe people just kinda gave up on caring.

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TBF that scene also included the Scions fighting Necron in the background and finished with our character blasting the terminal with unique animations based upon our current job. Wuk Lamat and Sphene got a big hero moment to immediately be followed by us finally being the Warrior of Light again.

It basically fed into the desire of centering us in the story and action that has been sorely missed in DT because Wuk Lamat was put in the spotlight, without actually crapping on Wuk Lamat. It worked for me, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

If they cannot even recall Chai and Dulia, Shadowbringers' most pleasant couple ...

Man.

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I have a toddler, so it took me like 6 months to go through Shadowbringers. Random characters fell through the cracks besides people like Ryne.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

TBF that scene also included the Scions fighting Necron in the background and finished with our character blasting the terminal with unique animations based upon our current job. Wuk Lamat and Sphene got a big hero moment to immediately be followed by us finally being the Warrior of Light again.

It basically fed into the desire of centering us in the story and action that has been sorely missed in DT because Wuk Lamat was put in the spotlight, without actually crapping on Wuk Lamat. It worked for me, anyway.

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I enjoyed this part honestly. I enjoyed hanging with Sphene too. Right before this too Wuk had to keep running off to "do random things" and I greatly appreciated it.

It made zero sense for Wuk lamat to have been able to crash dimensions and then not be able to handle her own in the fight here, but I forgave it because my character finally got to actually do something cool.

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Originally Posted by Yukimin

Please remove this character from the game and the story. I can't stand this character anymore and every cutscene and interaction with this character in it is a chore to go through. I'm sure the majority of people feel the same way.

It's time to put this annoying character in a shelf and never look back.

Remove Wuk Lamat.

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Well as of this writing 37 people liked your post, so clearly a majority of FFXIV players feel the same way given that there are.. some unknowable number of players which is at least 39. :p

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Well as of this writing 37 people liked your post, so clearly a majority of FFXIV players feel the same way given that there are.. some unknowable number of players which is at least 39. :p

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If 37 is the majority, the game is REALLY in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Korrcen

I have a toddler, so it took me like 6 months to go through Shadowbringers. Random characters fell through the cracks besides people like Ryne.

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Random characters? Chai Nuzz is an important character throughout multiple arcs in Shadowbringers. An entire big event before a big dungeon revolves around him. Sounds like you don't actually know the story very well at all...

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Originally Posted by Moonkittie

This, please.

I play with JP voices, and her JP VA really done the best she can, sadly it wasn't enough to save the character of Wuk Lamat. I played through ARR-EW 5 times and never missed a cutscene, but playing DT the second time.. nope, I just couldn't do it, I skipped every cutscene with Wuk Lamat in it. It's not only that she's everywhere and everything seems to revovle around her, which is extremly tiresome by itself, but as a character she's written very immaturly and resembles more a fanfiction character than a legitime part of FFXIV story. The whole expension MSQ felt like "playing safe", without any real painful consequenses, which is not how I felt with previous MSQs.

They really need to delete her from further story arcs, please.

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Holy over exaggeration. It's a shame y'all are so far into your own made up fantasy stories that you refuse to have a proper conversation based in reality. To pretend like Wuk is on screen more than other characters in the game is to outright lie and anyone that has actually played the game and payed attention to the story knows that.

Y'all really should know it's only you and other disengeous people like you that believe this BS. Everyone else who doesn't come into these horrid forums doesn't talk about the story like this at all. Mentors across all DCs, sprouts, random players, they all talk about the expansion like normal because it is normal. These complaints only come from y'all because you make it up in your heads and then come to the forums to make other disengeous people pretend like your complaints are valid. Vocal minority and all that.

I really enjoyed Dawntrail. Sometimes it gets so tiring being the main focus. Emet said travel, and so we did. Of course this new land would have it's own story not revolving around us. At first Wuk Lamat seemed very childish, but that was the point, to show how events had her grow up rather quickly. I really enjoyed the interactions between her and Koana and how they grew closer.

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Originally Posted by SpookyKobold

Mentors across all DCs, sprouts, random players, they all talk about the expansion like normal because it is normal. These complaints only come from y'all because you make it up in your heads and then come to the forums to make other disengeous people pretend like your complaints are valid. Vocal minority and all that.

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Citation Needed? The last time someone asked about DT in NN, it was immediately responded with "lmao" and "Play it and form your own opinion". People, despite their grievances, aren't going to go out of their way to be toxic about it because that's not what this game is about. It's part of the game now and we have to deal with it.
I'm not going to pretend to be a novelist nor am I'm going out of my way to convince people who believe otherwise, but Wuk Lamat is a textbook example of how to not write a leading character. No one is exaggerating about how "Wuk Lamat is always on screen" because when just about every single scene throughout the main story focuses so heavily on her and her contribution to the story, you'd think the camera was glued to her collar bone along with the lead writer. There are numerous breakdowns and reviews highlighting all these problems, some literally hours long.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I really enjoyed Dawntrail. Sometimes it gets so tiring being the main focus. Emet said travel, and so we did. Of course this new land would have it's own story not revolving around us. At first Wuk Lamat seemed very childish, but that was the point, to show how events had her grow up rather quickly. I really enjoyed the interactions between her and Koana and how they grew closer.

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Refreshing to read a reply like this.

I enjoyed it too. Yeah, Wuk Lamat was over-used (and then some) and it certainly had some pacing issues - but I've definitely played worse!

However, some players really do act as if Wuk Lamat pee'd in their breakfast, kicked their dog and stole their girlfriend!

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Originally Posted by SpookyKobold

EVERYONE is hating because of the VA. They'll lie to your face that that isn't the case, and then spout off some BS about the story (that they likely haven't even read) that contradicts itself and the actual text of the story (again because they haven't read it, but listened to some transphobe on youtube recount the story badly, one has already been posted in this thread too). They really sit there and say things like "Wuk Lamat just had a party instead of fixing the tribes wilting crops!" like y'all didn't pay ANY attention to the story did you, cause that ain't anywhere close to what happened.

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"Everyone" is a stretch. i play with JP va's so i literally don't care

My fault is with the writers and how they injected her like crack into every other sentence in the expansion, somehow.
Didn't really hate the VA because I have no idea who they are, there was the meme bit with Sphene that got changed and that's all I recall.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...64Ew/giphy.gif

I like the potential of mentoring a stuck-up royalty who doesn't understand the working of places outside their home palace, which is what I believe was the original intention by the writer. I however don't like how they handled it. I think what they did instead was doing a disservice to the character & also undermining the integrity of the world because now everything has to operate under the skewed limitation of "Wuk Lamat has to get the glory and be liked by 90% characters in the story!" without a coherent build up. One example in mind currently while I wrote this:

Wuk Lamat claimed to live in Tuliyollal her whole life (we are told so), but writer proceeds to demonstrate how she

1. Never knew about basic greeting of the Hanus while also citing that she had been to Kozama'uka before;
2. That Pelupelu charges for trading an information/anything (while also being a friend with Ropli???), AND;
3. She never knew anything about the potsworn while a DoH (I forgot that male wildwood elezen's name, starts with F I think) who only came to Tuliyollal on a boat together with us already know what that is.

Her own people live in the city too, how could she not known any of this? As a royalty herself, even. This incoherence made me squint ಠ_ಠ

The integrity of surrounding characters also diminishes in order to elevate her 'success'. For example, why Alphinaud never said anything when she demonstrates the danger of naivety & having only pure idealism in order to get what she wants? He's got a lot to say to her on that front as he had been through with the Crystal Braves in the past, but alas that was never explored in favor of further and repetition of "I have to protect Papa's peace!!!"-affirmations. This sort of 'growth' is very contrived and sounds very unearned.

Oh yeah, I also play on JP VA :rolleyes: :p

Maby we should have joined with Emet so dawntrail never would have happened.

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Originally Posted by SpookyKobold

Holy over exaggeration. It's a shame y'all are so far into your own made up fantasy stories that you refuse to have a proper conversation based in reality. To pretend like Wuk is on screen more than other characters in the game is to outright lie and anyone that has actually played the game and payed attention to the story knows that.

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Dunno, people did analyse the dialogue distribution for Dawntrail and she account for around 24% of the dialogue for that expansion, having near enough triple of Erenville, who was second.

Comparatively speaking Endwalker had Y'shtola, who had around 8% of dialogue, ShB, G'raha Tia at around 10%, Stormblood with Lyse at around 10%.. The closest is HW Alphinaud with around 20% of the dialogue

I don't care if she continues to be present. I just think it's time to allow the player to decide who they hang with. The Dawn trail plot would have been great opportunity to have actual choices on who we side with, but that ship has sailed.