Please Share Updates on 8.0 Job Design

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Isn't asking about 8.0 job design a bold move when we're still waiting to see new encounter design?

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I have some bad news for you then...

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Originally Posted by Gyson

My personal observation has been that earlier content focused more on tactics and respecting mechanics, and later content focuses more on mobility, dexterity, and awareness. The latter works better with more simplified rotations and combat (what we have now), while the former allows players more opportunity to babysit their UI and take advantage of procs and situational skills (what we used to have/what Bards largely still have relative to other classes).

Think about the style of boss fights in, say, World of Darkness back in the day compared to today's Jeuno: The First Walk. In the former we had people needing to focus on specific tasks, mechanics that would wipe the raid if not respected, etc. Today we have dodge, memorize and dodge, run run run dodge.

At any rate, I don't believe you can radically change every job and then just believe it'll all mesh well with all the content without running into problems. Much of that content has been balanced under the current class design.

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A few things... First, you're using the term "radically," but how have you come to the conclusion that any solution that resolves the issue of job identity and gameplay can only be described as "radical?" You've written off all possible solutions as extreme before there's even been an attempt to change jobs. It's not helpful to say that there's no solution to a problem when you don't even try.

But even if that was the case, the "oh well, we're stuck this way" is not good enough of a response to the real issues of job gameplay being medicore. It's not going to bring me back. it's not going to bring back others who have left. And it's not going to keep the people who are on their way out the door because of this issue. What players value most in XIV differs. Not everyone cares about job gameplay as much as someone like me, and that's fine. We all prioritize different things, and for many, it wouldn't really matter if jobs were completely gutted into oblivion. As long as the fights look cool, have good music, and have a satisfying story, you could literally do anything to their favorite job and they'll deal with it. But that's not everyone. Rather than abandoning a chunk of your players, would it not be a better alternative to find a middle ground? Or do you truly believe that middle ground is impossible?

Of course, up to this point, the design team has clearly not cared at all about the quality of their own game's job design, so expecting them to suddenly care is foolish. It's really just about whether or not Yoshi P's determination to regain player trust is genuine or fake. Which is really what I'm trying to determine myself here. If his words are genuine, then I want to see a real response and real change. If they're fake and shallow PR hot air, then it doesn't really matter anyway.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

A few things... First, you're using the term "radically," but how have you come to the conclusion that any solution that resolves the issue of job identity and gameplay can only be described as "radical?" You've written off all possible solutions as extreme before there's even been an attempt to change jobs. It's not helpful to say that there's no solution to a problem when you don't even try.

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Sorry if it wasn't clear, but in the context of my points I'd define a shift from the current class design back to something akin to what we had in ARR and Heavensward as a radical change. As I said, I think if people are expecting that to happen they're going to be disappointed.

And I don't see the changes in class design over the years as "not caring about the quality of their own game's job design". That's hardly fair to claim. The developers simply had their own ideas of what worked best for the game and those ideas differed from yours. You can argue that difference drove you away from the game, but that's different than painting them as a group of developers who don't care about the work they're doing on this game. They're not going to "suddenly care" because they've likely always cared. Whether they care or not isn't defined by whether the design matches the direction you want them to go. Your argument seems to be that Yoshi P is either genuine or full of hot air based on whether the results put a smile on your face. I don't recall him standing on a stage, citing your name, and promising to make you happy specifically, though. Going by your comments, you are definitely setting yourself up for disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but in the context of my points I'd define a shift from the current class design back to something akin to what we had in ARR and Heavensward as a radical change. As I said, I think if people are expecting that to happen they're going to be disappointed.

And I don't see the changes in class design over the years as "not caring about the quality of their own game's job design". That's hardly fair to claim. The developers simply had their own ideas of what worked best for the game and those ideas differed from yours. You can argue that difference drove you away from the game, but that's different than painting them as a group of developers who don't care about the work they're doing on this game. They're not going to "suddenly care" because they've likely always cared. Whether they care or not isn't defined by whether the design matches the direction you want them to go. Your argument seems to be that Yoshi P is either genuine or full of hot air based on whether the results put a smile on your face. I don't recall him standing on a stage, citing your name, and promising to make you happy specifically, though. Going by your comments, you are definitely setting yourself up for disappointment.

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I don't really understand how I can set myself up for disappointment when I have virtually no expectations for the future of this game at this time. I'm here simply to do the only thing I can do before I completely give up and never look back, because I'd rather be proven wrong. What I talk about is based on what is possible, and what needs to be done to regain trust from those who have been continuously ignored and let down by the ongoing design philosophy.

I'm not convinced that the designers care at all about job design in this game other than having it be good enough and left alone. I say this because we have continued to see sloppy execution of even basic design changes that shouldn't be pushed, yet are. Like the sloppy potency and MP adjustments to white mage DOTs in 6.1, where Aero II and Dia had the exact same potency, only Dia's MP cost increased. Or how Macrocosmos' potency was not updated with the launch of DT. Or how Pictomancer's nerf botched the numbers of their hammer phase. These are things that would never get pushed by a team that cared enough to properly balance test and quality control their adjustments before pushing.

Man, if they cared they at all in recent times, they wouldn't let that SCH & SMN pet potency trait stay bugged since 7.0 launch even after its report to 7.2, much less have the audacity to literally wrote lodestone note that essentially amounts to "Yeah uh we made a mistake so now their potencies are nerfed unintentionally but y'know what it'll be fine to just leave them for another 1.5 months when we'll fix it together during 7.2 implementation lol. Less work for us." (paraphrased) in lodestone page lol.

Just corpo doing corpo garbo. Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

“Can’t” is a really strong word to use especially given the example you’re citing. On the topic of Pictomancer’s identity… To my knowledge the issue is that the combat design team failed to perform one of the most basic steps in launching adjustments, which is quality control. It seems that there was no math done or basic numbers testing to preserve the integrity of the rotation which can happen to any job if the pushed changes are sloppy. If Samurai needed a nerf, and they reduced the potency of Higanbana such that the combined total potency was lower than Midare’s, that would impact the integrity of Samurai’s rotation, and that’s what essentially happened with Picto’s painting, to my knowledge. If they had taken the time to quality check their pushes, there would be no issue. And that kind of proves to me that my previous assumption is correct. They are cutting corners with job design at every step, both with identity and with balance. Job quality seems to be a very low priority to CBU3.

Additionally, I don’t think Pictomancer having a ln advantage in Ultimates is a bad thing. The degree of Picto’s power was, but some jobs having downtime advantages is really not an issue. It’s okay for some jobs to thrive better in certain environments as long as all jobs get a chance to shine somewhere and are viable otherwise. That makes the job system more interesting. Identity should not be sacrificed for balance, because what good is balance if the game isn’t enjoyable?

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Pictomancer was the closest thing to a "Specialist Job" so to say in recent memory and a good example for why damage numbers need to line up to keep the masses happy.

There were many YouTube videos, reddit posts, forum post, discord discussions where people didn't even know that the vastly higher damage graph only applied to downtime fights. People upset about a job doing so much damage who didn't even engage in the content that it was doing the damage in or have the ability to understand where it applied. The part about it not being top damage in savage didn't even matter, just that ultimate number.

Then of course you had PF's where the job got locked in for FRU due to how good it was so actually causing a lockout for caster role entirely for those who don't play the job.

Regarding the nerf I know the rotation could have been maintained with a smarter nerf, I remember being in the balance discord where they mathed out a different nerf balance to maintain the rotation it currently had being optimal before maintenance even ended. I ended up dropping the job because it didn't feel the same to me anymore and settled on monk.

To make a system where all the jobs have an identity while not causing player outrage that is still compatible with the last 14 years or more's content really doesn't seem realistic, at least not with the designers we currently have.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't really understand how I can set myself up for disappointment when I have virtually no expectations for the future of this game at this time. I'm here simply to do the only thing I can do before I completely give up and never look back, because I'd rather be proven wrong. What I talk about is based on what is possible, and what needs to be done to regain trust from those who have been continuously ignored and let down by the ongoing design philosophy.

I'm not convinced that the designers care at all about job design in this game other than having it be good enough and left alone. I say this because we have continued to see sloppy execution of even basic design changes that shouldn't be pushed, yet are. Like the sloppy potency and MP adjustments to white mage DOTs in 6.1, where Aero II and Dia had the exact same potency, only Dia's MP cost increased. Or how Macrocosmos' potency was not updated with the launch of DT. Or how Pictomancer's nerf botched the numbers of their hammer phase. These are things that would never get pushed by a team that cared enough to properly balance test and quality control their adjustments before pushing.

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I agree, but I do think they don't care and decided to cut their losses with their veterans, and gave us a nice quarantine zone in pvp for those of us who enjoy it.
I do dare them to prove me wrong for 8.0 though, and I do hope they listen to you.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I agree, but I do think they don't care and decided to cut their losses with their veterans, and gave us a nice quarantine zone in pvp for those of us who enjoy it.
I do dare them to prove me wrong for 8.0 though, and I do hope they listen to you.

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I appreciate it. I won’t be active for a long time so I imagine the thread won’t last too long, but I hope this is something the community management team has taken notice of before then. Even if nothing comes of it, I would like to know that the design team is aware of how important some communication and transparency is. I believe a lot of people want to know what’s going on with job design before the last 30 days of Dawntrail.

It’s not just veterans, though. Plenty of newer players from after Stormblood have criticized job design as well. It’s those of us that value class design in MMOs as one of—if not the most important quality of gameplay.

Theres no way in hell theyre going to revert DT changes to BLM. Essentially gutting its (and casting as a whole) mechanical identity in favor of encounters, so i get the feeling when they talk about job identity, its purely visual or similar actions.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I appreciate it. I won’t be active for a long time so I imagine the thread won’t last too long, but I hope this is something the community management team has taken notice of before then. Even if nothing comes of it, I would like to know that the design team is aware of how important some communication and transparency is. I believe a lot of people want to know what’s going on with job design before the last 30 days of Dawntrail.

It’s not just veterans, though. Plenty of newer players from after Stormblood have criticized job design as well. It’s those of us that value class design in MMOs as one of—if not the most important quality of gameplay.

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But how many of those new players are up in arms against the true root of the problem, which is full steam trying to turn the game into a twitchy action game? I feel like every time this gets mentioned it just displays the unbridgeable gap between the two generations, and even among vets there is a lot that don't see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Valence

But how many of those new players are up in arms against the true root of the problem, which is full steam trying to turn the game into a twitchy action game? I feel like every time this gets mentioned it just displays the unbridgeable gap between the two generations, and even among vets there is a lot that don't see the problem.

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It's such a baffling decision because of how much lag is deliberately built into the game. Even if you live inside a server complex in Tokyo, there's still enough unavoidable delay to get nonsensical snapshots.

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Originally Posted by Valence

But how many of those new players are up in arms against the true root of the problem, which is full steam trying to turn the game into a twitchy action game? I feel like every time this gets mentioned it just displays the unbridgeable gap between the two generations, and even among vets there is a lot that don't see the problem.

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I've seen players come and go here on these forums over the last several years who look at job design from before Endwalker/Shadowbringers and agree that the current state is bad. How many are as vocal as me and some of the others? Hard to say. ASkellington I believe has mentioned starting XIV in Shadowbringers, and is extremely vocal about his disgust regarding Astrologian and stating his desire to see Stormblood Astro return despite not having been here when it was live. That's anecdotal of course, but we don't have a census on this sort of data so I couldn't tell you the breakdown of who's new and who isn't. From my experience it seems a little mixed.

The reason why not everyone sees it as a problem is because not all players get enjoyment out of the same aspects of the game. Whether you're an old veteran, a newbie, or somewhere in between, what you value in an MMO like XIV can vary. Maybe it's job/class design, or maybe its encounter design. Maybe it's roleplay, grind, collecting rewards, achievement hunting, etc. For many of those players where job design is not the focal point of their enjoyment of XIV, it almost doesn't matter what you do to a job as long as it doesn't halt them from progressing steadily. Which I'll repeat for the people in the back: wasn't ever the case even in Heavensward. I think a lot of those players recognize that job design is in the toilet but it's not a big enough issue to them because at the end of the day, the encounters are still fun, the glamour is still exciting to collect, or whatever else appeals to that person more. They don't oppose change, but don't fight for it either. But there does feel like there's a tumor of people who dig their feet in the sand and yell "Well I don't see a problem so there isn't one!" Even when the solution doesn't need to conflict with their enjoyment no matter how much they fear it might.

My mindset is that if ffxiv's combat wants to be more like an action game then I should be using my feedback to help it become a better action game rather than condemn it for trying. So I try to compare jobs to how their weapons are handled in other action or action-adjacent games knowing it will have to be translated into ffxiv's GCD, and tab-targeting system. So with all the complaints about 'DDR' fights, I think there is a certain amount of 'working as intended' at play, and it presents the problem of how to make 'DDR fights' not feel like 'DDR fights which could be solved with more game dev slight of hand, but I think we're at the point where job design is the missing component.

Changes in 8.0:

All jobs get 1 or 2 new buttons that do damage and have no interaction with the rest of the kit, probably as extra combo finishers on 2 minute cooldowns

Tanks somehow get more self healing

Healers get more big heals they don't need

There, I have predicted 8.0, you are welcome.

Since they don't have enough funding, we can expect minimum work.

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

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I think there is a huge amount of overlap between what people call DDR and what you call team jump rope. The relativity mechanics from e12s are imo prime example of DDR mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

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That sounds about right.
But it goes further than that. There is also a general surge of mobility and twitchy action mechanics with visual cues to look at everywhere, where time spent moving or running all around is ramping up and up and up dramatically. I do main rphys jobs, and I don't have uptime problems (although the role has one of the poorest mobility those days except DNC), and it still pisses me off to no end.
That's what Mao called I believe "frogs in a blender". I think the image is apt enough, at least for me.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

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DDR is simply a game of "see queue on screen, take the one correct action or lose points." In the FFXIV incarnation, the primary problem is that the sequence of queues is static. It's... jump rope, sure.

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- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

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Of these examples, the first two points are more about the "team" in "team jump rope." Only the last actually gets at "jump rope" (DDR), because it's the only one that speaks to things going off script.

For example: When does healing become fun? When things go sideways. Jumping a rope is still jumping a rope, whether its my own rope or one shared by the team. The primary problem is not whether I, the healer, am allowed to stand still and cast. The primary problem is that I can plan and schedule casts (or instants) in the first place.

It's the ability to plan and schedule actions that means that fights can be designed around (excessive amounts of) active moment, because the fight designer can assume/require that players be in or near certain spots at certain times.

I also say that one of the aspects that makes it 'DDR' for me is that there's so much symmetry and mirroring in the mechanics to the point that it looks like a full blown ballroom dance sometimes. Everything relates just to be on the right spot, with the right partner/group. (Ironically they released M5S where this kind of thing would actually make perfect sense for the encounter's fantasy).

Ever wonder why the stage floorings are designed in a way that most of the time the patterns will match the mechanics lines? Or why the bosses still centers themselves so much. They want the least amount possible of 'creative solving of mechanics' from players, so they don't even give the option for the tanks to have agency for the boss positioning through important mechanics.

Man... this made me remember Diurnal/Nocturnal sect Astro. It was so fun choosing which sect to pick based on my co healers.
When the Nocturnal sect got removed for the "split between pure and shield healers" I was so sad.
I would really like if we got the 2 sects back and be left to choose which we prefered. Can we have it back please?

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

Man... this made me remember Diurnal/Nocturnal sect Astro. It was so fun choosing which sect to pick based on my co healers.
When the Nocturnal sect got removed for the "split between pure and shield healers" I was so sad.
I would really like if we got the 2 sects back and be left to choose which we prefered. Can we have it back please?

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I don't heal anymore, but AST was my favorite back in the day. I mourn the loss of the sects...

Because it was for freakin' nothing!

I actually didn't mind it at first, but on practice the whole Shield healer / Pure healer segregation turned out to be nearly pointless, and let me ask: what happens when the 5th healer gets added? It suddenly steals old AST fantasy and becomes flex? Or they won't mind having unbalanced types of healers?

Not even mentioning... The amount of shielding or direct/regen healing the 'other' healer has is quite a lot for them to even be categorized in a box.

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

Man... this made me remember Diurnal/Nocturnal sect Astro. It was so fun choosing which sect to pick based on my co healers.
When the Nocturnal sect got removed for the "split between pure and shield healers" I was so sad.
I would really like if we got the 2 sects back and be left to choose which we prefered. Can we have it back please?

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For some reason I really enjoyed Nocturnal AST, despite not enjoying either SCH or SGE much at all. And I loved being able to switch depending on co-healers as well.

Raikai makes a good point too: assuming they eventually add to the healer role, will the 5th one be a flex or assigned to pure/shield? Make another pure and let AST go back to flex! lol

i dont really expect 8.0 changes to be as big as people are hoping for. they said 7.x was going to change boss fights and it's mostly the same "do this dance every 10 sec in pre-assigned spots".

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't heal anymore, but AST was my favorite back in the day. I mourn the loss of the sects...

Because it was for freakin' nothing!

I actually didn't mind it at first, but on practice the whole Shield healer / Pure healer segregation turned out to be nearly pointless, and let me ask: what happens when the 5th healer gets added? It suddenly steals old AST fantasy and becomes flex? Or they won't mind having unbalanced types of healers?

Not even mentioning... The amount of shielding or direct/regen healing the 'other' healer has is quite a lot for them to even be categorized in a box.

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SGE is already the flex healer as it stands

It’s a regen healer that has shields on its GCD

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Originally Posted by Aravell

[...]What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.
It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

[...]It's the ability to plan and schedule actions that means that fights can be designed around (excessive amounts of) active moment, because the fight designer can assume/require that players be in or near certain spots at certain times.

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And even if they're all forced to do the same movement based mechs, at the very least they could've given us different ways how to deal with that. Something that they sort of 'nailed it' to some degree in ShB for green dpses healers:

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WHM needs to abuse their lilies that was also used in tandem to maximize the healing and weaving needs whenever possible.
SCH gets away free for 1-3 shots/min before they're required to eat Ruin II losses but at the same time give purpose for Ruin II to exists.
AST was unique with their own 1.5s and probably should've stayed that way.

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But nooo, it's easier to give everybody and their mom faster casts & instants. Even BLM wasn't safe from that apparently, lol.

Also are you two ghostposting? :P /j

It just feels like another element of their design getting lazy in that rather than designing fights for 8 players, they design them for 2, MT and everyone else

It must massively cut down on fight development time to just go “okay we only need to consider 2 players for this mechanic, the MT and everyone else”

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't heal anymore, but AST was my favorite back in the day. I mourn the loss of the sects...

Because it was for freakin' nothing!

I actually didn't mind it at first, but on practice the whole Shield healer / Pure healer segregation turned out to be nearly pointless, and let me ask: what happens when the 5th healer gets added? It suddenly steals old AST fantasy and becomes flex? Or they won't mind having unbalanced types of healers?

Not even mentioning... The amount of shielding or direct/regen healing the 'other' healer has is quite a lot for them to even be categorized in a box.

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If they add a new healer, they would either have to turn back the AST changes, and so making the years the job fantasy got deleted all for nothing, but annoyance to the players, or ignore the unbalance and make the sacrifice moot. I am just sad they ruined a job fantasy for something like SGE who also failed to deliver in being a more battle focused healer.

You want to play Healers? Why not try:
WHM
WHM but book
WHM but gambling problems
WHM but nerf gun

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

Man... this made me remember Diurnal/Nocturnal sect Astro. It was so fun choosing which sect to pick based on my co healers.
When the Nocturnal sect got removed for the "split between pure and shield healers" I was so sad.
I would really like if we got the 2 sects back and be left to choose which we prefered. Can we have it back please?

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Honestly, diurnal/nocturnal never should have been a thing. It was a bandaid to force the healer to heal like a WHM or SCH at a time when it was inferior to both (literally, the class flat launched in a worthless state and had trouble healing the dungeons of HW.)

But, what I want is really to have uniqueness breathed into healer (and tank) design. The buster meta FFXIV uses is extremely toxic to the game as a whole, but especially tank and healer design. AST happens to be a poster child of this because it flat couldn't heal well enough until it was turned into a copy of both healers that preceded it with the push of a button, with one of those 2 (SCH) also being turned into the other (WHM.)

So long as the concept of tank busters exist as a major and primary mechanic of fight design, both healers and tanks will continue to have terrible, homogenized gameplay full of binary pass-fails and no uniqueness to speak of. Just think, Synnastry could have been a stance, and AST could have been closer to WoW's paladin circa legion era. But alas, the devs don't understand how to make anything unique anymore, and long ago abandoned the concept of uniqueness.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Honestly, diurnal/nocturnal never should have been a thing. It was a bandaid to force the healer to heal like a WHM or SCH at a time when it was inferior to both (literally, the class flat launched in a worthless state and had trouble healing the dungeons of HW.)

But, what I want is really to have uniqueness breathed into healer (and tank) design. The buster meta FFXIV uses is extremely toxic to the game as a whole, but especially tank and healer design. AST happens to be a poster child of this because it flat couldn't heal well enough until it was turned into a copy of both healers that preceded it with the push of a button, with one of those 2 (SCH) also being turned into the other (WHM.)

So long as the concept of tank busters exist as a major and primary mechanic of fight design, both healers and tanks will continue to have terrible, homogenized gameplay full of binary pass-fails and no uniqueness to speak of. Just think, Synnastry could have been a stance, and AST could have been closer to WoW's paladin circa legion era. But alas, the devs don't understand how to make anything unique anymore, and long ago abandoned the concept of uniqueness.

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For clarification, Astro’s healing style was always similar to White Mage’s. The sects not only changed whether your aspected heals were regens or barriers, but also offered a flat healing boost. To “compensate,” the potencies of Astro’s heals were lower. I think it was something like 380 potency for Benefic to White Mage’s 400 potency Cure. It’s only AOE healing was Helios and Aspected Helios, other than Collective Unconscious which is more difficult to use compared to Asylum. So it wasn’t so much that it had a different style of healing that was bad, just that the healing boost from your sects wasn’t enough to justify the lower potencies, which was enough to make Astro struggle a bit.

If doing content with the current action rotation is considering boring, it isn’t an issue with what we have. It’s YOU that’s bored. Yoshi-P won’t reveal any of the changes until the Fan Festival. I’m fine with the job rotations we have now as it gets the job done. I have 0 issues with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

If doing content with the current action rotation is considering boring, it isn’t an issue with what we have. It’s YOU that’s bored. Yoshi-P won’t reveal any of the changes until the Fan Festival. I’m fine with the job rotations we have now as it gets the job done. I have 0 issues with it.

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Cool, others have issue with it though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

it isn’t an issue with what we have. It’s YOU that’s bored..

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YOU is part of WE, mind you.

Players have different perceptions of the content. This is in any kind of game... now, if there's a growing number of people dissatisfied with the status quo, it may be a problem for them. It's up to the company to see if they want to act upon it which may be a change of paradigm, like... talking (not revealing) about the changes before the Fanfests, for example, which can be seen as some sort of damage control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raikai

YOU is part of WE, mind you.

Players have different perceptions of the content. This is in any kind of game... now, if there's a growing number of people dissatisfied with the status quo, it may be a problem for them. It's up to the company to see if they want to act upon it which may be a change of paradigm, like... talking (not revealing) about the changes before the Fanfests, for example, which can be seen as some sort of damage control.

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Yoshi-P is going to talk about 8.0 in the future, and will not mention it before a 8.0 reveal because that WILL steal the thunder for the rest of the Patch 7.x cycle. For the graphics upgrade, we were shown that before 7.0, but it was a necessity because it affects everything in the game. Job identity is an aspect and feature for future game content, but it’s not in the same category as how the graphics needed to be upgraded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

Yoshi-P is going to talk about 8.0 in the future, and will not mention it before a 8.0 reveal because that WILL steal the thunder for the rest of the Patch 7.x cycle. For the graphics upgrade, we were shown that before 7.0, but it was a necessity because it affects everything in the game. Job identity is an aspect and feature for future game content, but it’s not in the same category as how the graphics needed to be upgraded.

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Spoiler: 8.0 was already in the planning stages before 7.0 released, because that's how live service game development works. By the time they start actually showing any part of 8.0, the majority of the bones will be set because they need to get to work on finalizing the concrete details for the rest of the patch cycle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

Yoshi-P is going to talk about 8.0 in the future, and will not mention it before a 8.0 reveal because that WILL steal the thunder for the rest of the Patch 7.x cycle. For the graphics upgrade, we were shown that before 7.0, but it was a necessity because it affects everything in the game. Job identity is an aspect and feature for future game content, but it’s not in the same category as how the graphics needed to be upgraded.

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How much is he paying you so we get once more presented with done deals even if they suck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

Yoshi-P is going to talk about 8.0 in the future, and will not mention it before a 8.0 reveal because that WILL steal the thunder for the rest of the Patch 7.x cycle. For the graphics upgrade, we were shown that before 7.0, but it was a necessity because it affects everything in the game. Job identity is an aspect and feature for future game content, but it’s not in the same category as how the graphics needed to be upgraded.

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I don't want to see what is the PLD new shiny gauge or how BLM will get a fourth polyglot stack because that's going to be the main resource for a new void rotation...

I just want communication on a more philosophical level. Let us know what issues you think the game has, let us know what kind of direction you plan. Nothing concrete, I just want to understand what those game designers are thinking.

They can do such a thing without spoiling anything, and if they're good with it, people will actually look forward to something in 8.0.

Didn't they also used to speak about jobs way more prior to implementations? If so, where's that degree of communication nowadays? Do they need people to praise them for creating StB Lilies to go back to that? Lmao.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

If doing content with the current action rotation is considering boring, it isn’t an issue with what we have. It’s YOU that’s bored.

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Hard not to be bored when you can clear a fight on, say, SCH and swap to any other healer and have zero learning curve to clear again.

If you're fine with the kits as they are right now, good for you, but not everyone is happy with everything that has been removed from the job kits over the years.

"just wait until fanfest" "just wait until launch" "just wait until next patch" "oops cant make any changes now because that would steal the thunder of the rest of the expansion so just wait for fanfest"