M6s in PF is the most miserable and unfun high end fight in the game

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Agreed. SE should keep it up and then players will start to learn how to play and become better, then mechanics like this won't be such a surprise to them - like they weren't in Heavensward.

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I mean... I dunno, but even in the past two tiers, a lot of people struggled with some mechanics. I had to spend like 5 days with 12-14 hrs of pugs in PF last tier to finish M4s because people cannot count to 3 for some stupid reason.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

congratulations, i have only managed to get through the add phase ONCE, usually wipe to enrage squirrels or enrage boss because people just dont kill them fast enough.
I guess i have to wait for week 7 when people got the Tome Weapons to do more damage, i am close to throwing the towel.

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Twittania is an EU server right? If there was some kind of transfer I would offer to help...

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Twittania is an EU server right? If there was some kind of transfer I would offer to help...

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I had a pretty decent party today, dps was really good and everything died quickly. But the offtank kept dieing to the two yans... it is just impossible man

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I had a pretty decent party today, dps was really good and everything died quickly. But the offtank kept dieing to the two yans... it is just impossible man

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That's a mismanagement of cool downs. I did it as a healer, so I'd focus completely on healing on PF. It's too chaotic to tell. One thing that helped me clear was when I asked my cohealer and BLM to put a dot on the third wave yan. By the time we were cleaving the final Manta Ray it was almost dead and the OT didn't take that much damage.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I had a pretty decent party today, dps was really good and everything died quickly. But the offtank kept dieing to the two yans... it is just impossible man

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Tends to occur when the Healers are thinking that they can deal with the phase without using damage-losing Healing actions (eg GCDs on any non WHM healer, Cure2s and Regens as WHM). In that phase, I was maintaining Regen on both tanks as WHM pretty heavily in that phase, the log says across the whole fight I used 14 Regens total, 10 of which were split 5/5 between the two Tanks (presumably for the add phase). As SCH last night (on an alt), I was using a lot of Adloquium casts, too.

SE should add a phase in a boss fight where there's a buff/debuff combo status: Healing Actions reduced by 99%, Healing Spells increased by 10000%. So, GCDs work fine (the two effects cancel each other out), OGCDs don't work at all. Then maybe people will press their damn buttons

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

SE should add a phase in a boss fight where there's a buff/debuff combo status: Healing Actions reduced by 99%, Healing Spells increased by 10000%. So, GCDs work fine (the two effects cancel each other out), OGCDs don't work at all. Then maybe people will press their damn buttons

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The unfortunate consequence of them designing fights for 6 years now that can be solved exclusively with oGCDs, most people who still remember frequent GCD healing in savage probably don't even play the game anymore.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

that wont change the problem that the game targets in a circle instead of by distance.

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Don't know what your setup is, but Cone actually targets enemies in a cone in front of me.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Been on "Cone" for years at this point. Game does not target the enemy closest to you period.

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Wrong button. Don't use Tab for that, bind a key to Target Nearest Enemy (unbound by default).

I think it’s just a knowledge check. The adds dps check isn’t actually that hard at all. There is just a lot of basic things people do wrong:

-Healers aren’t putting dots on adds that live longer than 20 seconds
-AoEs being used poorly
-Jabber stunned outside the range of tethered healer…
-Adds being targeted poorly to where one dies way before the rest in the stack
-AoEs being used on groups of 2 adds…

There are classes that just excel during adds phase though: Viper, Black Mage, Astro, Sage to name the insane ones. If a healer isn’t at least double their normal DPS they are lost and don’t know what to do, good ones can even get 4x their damage in adds. Dancer is great for buffing viper. But yeah this tier viper is the Picto of last tier.

I get the frustration, but I think if you notice these core things I listed aren’t happening you need to stand up for yourself and your time. Say hey healers dot the cats on spawn. Dance partner the viper during adds phase. Focus the Yan to free up your tank to help cleave. You may not be the one causing the issues but if you don’t help out your PF group and let them know what’s going on it’s probably going to end up in frustration.

I healed that fight in PF. I didn’t get any decent pure healers in PF. And my decent whm definition is basically glare and use OGCDs to help out a bit… you occasionally get one that uses benediction but honestly the tanks just end up dying and I don’t see many healers using any of the “free” sections of their kits to help them out…

Sounds like healers forgot they're not just green DPS.
B-but mah parse

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Originally Posted by Valence

Sounds like healers forgot they're not just green DPS.
B-but mah parse

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It’s not even about the parse, they just hit glare and occasionally aoe heal…Very rarely can players think for themselves and make decisions without a guide. If it was about the parse they would have DOT uptime on the boss and multiple adds through the phase…I’m just tired of playing with them. If I try to mention one thing that would help them do better they take it as an attack and leave. Astro is leagues better than Whm but you can’t play Astro with macros and have high ping. I’m on the east coast and still drop stuff because a macro didn’t quite go off the way I wanted it to…

Even though I just use OGCDs when healing, I am able to snap out of that when actual healing is needed in certain rare big pulls in dungeons.

And in Savage, given you would think the goal is to actually clear (especially in a learning prog party), just literally keeping uptime on regens/shields might not always be necessary but at least people are less likely to die to stupid things like raid-wide damage so you can actually clear.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

SE should add a phase in a boss fight where there's a buff/debuff combo status: Healing Actions reduced by 99%, Healing Spells increased by 10000%. So, GCDs work fine (the two effects cancel each other out), OGCDs don't work at all.

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I don't think SE should do that. That would be in line with their strategy of forcing people to play properly by simlifying jobs ie. highlighting what button to press next on BLM, aligning buff windows by design, etc.

I think people should just actually play properly without the design forcing them into it. Because if the design forces them to do the mechanic right then what is the point of the mechanic? It would become far more trivial then.

I don't know why healers would bother looking at their combat excel sheets anyway. Whatever they do, they aren't going to be above the other roles.

It's seeming like people here just need to find players that have sense, and have the raid awareness to not get lost and confused after having been to the phase enough times.

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Please Square when considering fight design think of the average PF player since not everyone can static.

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This is coming from someone who plays exclusively in pf. These fights are made for guild progs - taking pf into account, which necessarily involves some unfortunate hazards due to a lower IG commitment, will result in a drop in level. But these are supposed to be tough fights.

If you want to progress effectively, join a guild. If not, then you need to be prepared for battles that are sometimes twice as tough as they need to be.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

This is coming from someone who plays exclusively in pf. These fights are made for guild progs - taking pf into account, which necessarily involves some unfortunate hazards due to a lower IG commitment, will result in a drop in level. But these are supposed to be tough fights.

If you want to progress effectively, join a guild. If not, then you need to be prepared for battles that are sometimes twice as tough as they need to be.

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Honestly they're clearable with PuGs and randos currently. They're supposed to be the toughest fights the game can offer, I don't want them to dumb them down ala Endwalker so more people can beat them.

6? PF can't even do 5.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

This is coming from someone who plays exclusively in pf. These fights are made for guild progs - taking pf into account, which necessarily involves some unfortunate hazards due to a lower IG commitment, will result in a drop in level. But these are supposed to be tough fights.

If you want to progress effectively, join a guild. If not, then you need to be prepared for battles that are sometimes twice as tough as they need to be.

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ff14 guilds =/= wow guilds. You don't need fc nor static to clear m6s. If you see what people do at adds and you know it's not worth it just leave group and try to find new pf. m6s changed nothing about pf being uphill battle vs random glue eaters.

Week 1 i was leaving group after 2-3 pulls. I instantly left group when i noticed melee went to not spawned toy location, stand still for a while then going to squirrel pack wasting time to do damage. (that was 4th add spawn group btw)

Honestly, the biggest reason some content in WoW is considered PUG-proof is because of instance lockouts being tied to group for mythic difficulty. If people could juggle party members like they can in XIV and for normal/heroic difficulty they'd take everything down without guild groups there as well.

I feel like the current XIV tier's difficulty is fine but between the class balance being awful at present and the previous tier being a bit of a joke by overall standards it's proving to be a bit of a rude awakening for a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by Robulite

It’s not even about the parse, they just hit glare and occasionally aoe heal…Very rarely can players think for themselves and make decisions without a guide. If it was about the parse they would have DOT uptime on the boss and multiple adds through the phase…I’m just tired of playing with them. If I try to mention one thing that would help them do better they take it as an attack and leave. Astro is leagues better than Whm but you can’t play Astro with macros and have high ping. I’m on the east coast and still drop stuff because a macro didn’t quite go off the way I wanted it to…

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The irony is that the guides I've watched actually make mention of adjustments and holding bursts, etc. People are just deaf to what they don't want to remember even from guides. They want to get into a fight and instantly proceed and follow to a set of instructions and not having to actually think and use their brains. This is literally what the battle content has come to since SHB+. Now we're reaping what we sowed.

I really hate myself for thinking Savage was going to be fun. This is the first time I started savage and I started the first tier late. I didn't clear M4S until a month before this tier dropped. I was told better players raid earlier, that's why clearing the last tier was so difficult, but M6S has been the death of me. Over 40 hours, and over 500 attempts (tomestone.gg stopped recording at 499 attempts for some reason). I feel like I've wasted my life. Whenever I have a team that's doing well on adds, they forget to dodge lightning. Whenever I find a team that can do adds, they don't know how to do lightning, or they don't dodge arrows, or clip each other on lightning spreads. And rather than wanting to stay and do it right, they all just quit after 3 or so tries, resulting in more time wasted in PF doing nothing (or crafting potions/doing fates). Tomestone.gg says I've been doing this fight for 40 hours, but that doesn't include time wasted in PF. Imagine having a full time job where you're supposed to attempt clearing M6S for 8 hours a day. (Note, I work two full time jobs in real life, and spend my time playing this game when I should be sleeping on most days).

Doing M6S has made want to stop playing the game. I'm starting to think doing Savage was a mistake. I used to enjoy this game until I started doing this, now it just feels like I'm playing because of the sunk cost fallacy.

i am agreeing with above. I have loved savage. M5S is simple. M6S is too, but it seems not for others. I havent touched in a week because I'm fed up. Its not a bad fight. But in party finder? Its time wasted. They did not consider PF when they made it. I dont want to have to spend 500 pulls attempting to clear because I got 'unlucky' with who else was in my party. And then have to spend all week trying to get a reclear every week after. Who has time for that?!

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

This is coming from someone who plays exclusively in pf. These fights are made for guild progs - taking pf into account, which necessarily involves some unfortunate hazards due to a lower IG commitment, will result in a drop in level. But these are supposed to be tough fights.

If you want to progress effectively, join a guild. If not, then you need to be prepared for battles that are sometimes twice as tough as they need to be.

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I’ve spent some time in PF with M6S (joined a static eventually lol) but it seems like the noticeable difference between a party that can do adds and a party that can’t is based on whether they can talk about wipes and adapt as needed. For example if someone says “it’s maybe be because of me that the jabberwock didn’t die fast enough, I didn’t use enough single target attacks that time.”

But this type of coordination and adjustment is not something players usually ever have to do in PF. In some raids there may be the rare discussion about raidwide mitigation or tankbusters, but most of of the time a party just agrees on a strategy at the start and then (as long as they’re good at the raid) clears it with no further communication needed.

Part of me wonders of the reason that mechanics are often designed the way they are these days (ie. being mainly about standing in the right spots), is to reduce the chance of needing actual party coordination other that “can you follow the agreed-upon strategy.”

Raiding in this game takes neither skill nor brain so there isn't much lost if you quit and do something useful with your life. Some of the best players came to this conclusion long ago. Personally I'm baffled how this garbage still passes through their QA department and how Yoshida is still with the company.

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Raiding in this game takes neither skill nor brain so there isn't much lost if you quit and do something useful with your life. Some of the best players came to this conclusion long ago. Personally I'm baffled how this garbage still passes through their QA department and how Yoshida is still with the company.

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You're taking over for the resident forum clown in being the perpetual sourpuss on a forum that requires an active subscription to the game to post here? I mean, it's obvious how YoshiP is still in charge, given that under his leadership he manages to keep eternal whiners subscribed for years.

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Originally Posted by -Xenia-

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

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My issue with savage is 4-fold, personally. 1, they're designing a game that is killing my preferred, favorite playstyle (core caster gameplay of memorizing bosses, minimizing movement, and finding pixels to hide in.) 2, they're doing it in a way that breaks their netcode (M5S is substantially harder with even 50 ping.) 3, they're massively ratcheting up multitasking and obscure boss mechanics. 4, they're killing job design to do it.

DT just happens to be the straw that's breaking the camel's back, but all of this started mid-ShB, and EW was when I knew something was deeply wrong.

The issue fundamentally comes down to the devs barking up the wrong tree in designing the game, and forgetting the limitations of their game and what made their best expansion the best expansion. By the way, it's stormblood. All of ShB's success is because of stormblood fixing HW's godawful mistakes.

For netcode itself, the devs learned this lesson in titan ex with weight of the land. How the heck can netcode issues sneak into the game still?

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Originally Posted by Taranok

For netcode itself, the devs learned this lesson in titan ex with weight of the land. How the heck can netcode issues sneak into the game still?

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I am kind of curious how many mechanics have violated their claim that no telegraphed mechanics would give less time to react then weight of the land did at this point.

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Originally Posted by Voryn

I’ve spent some time in PF with M6S (joined a static eventually lol) but it seems like the noticeable difference between a party that can do adds and a party that can’t is based on whether they can talk about wipes and adapt as needed. For example if someone says “it’s maybe be because of me that the jabberwock didn’t die fast enough, I didn’t use enough single target attacks that time.”

But this type of coordination and adjustment is not something players usually ever have to do in PF. In some raids there may be the rare discussion about raidwide mitigation or tankbusters, but most of of the time a party just agrees on a strategy at the start and then (as long as they’re good at the raid) clears it with no further communication needed.

Part of me wonders of the reason that mechanics are often designed the way they are these days (ie. being mainly about standing in the right spots), is to reduce the chance of needing actual party coordination other that “can you follow the agreed-upon strategy.”

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M6S is literally the anti raidplan fight from what I've seen. It goes against everything that the current raiding community does which is memorizing plans and executing a set of instructions to the letter. It requires people to think by themselves and talk with their party.

Is this a decent summary of it?

Haha they say M6S.

I've seen streamers hard stuck far more often on M7S in PF, with many just agonizing over it in reclears if not done on reset day.

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Originally Posted by Valence

M6S is literally the anti raidplan fight from what I've seen. It goes against everything that the current raiding community does which is memorizing plans and executing a set of instructions to the letter. It requires people to think by themselves and talk with their party.

Is this a decent summary of it?

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To be honest I would like more fights that test your knowledge of a job and game sense like M6S. People complain about it being a wall on PF but really the wall is just the lack of skill of the players. I'm not an amazing raider by any means, I got through adds phase as a healer, caster and melee, and finally cleared.

Raiders were asking for stuff like this for years, now we got it, and a bunch of people conditioned by ShB and EW want them to nerf it when there's no need. Next week this part of the fight is gonna be so easy the challenge will be very diminished.

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Originally Posted by -Xenia-

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

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Oh please.. as if Snek memes weren't a thing in p8s and most PF's that were "phase 2" were actually a snek prog in disguise. Give me a break..

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I am kind of curious how many mechanics have violated their claim that no telegraphed mechanics would give less time to react then weight of the land did at this point.

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It depends on how they test it. A really old claim is that they test the game at 250ms ping, but a fake 250ms ping where you just programatically delay a signal before sending it to a computer in the same room as the server is very, very different than a real world 250ms ping which can wildly fluctuate.

Likewise, weight of the land isn't the best mechanic, but it's a lot easier to react to than most mechanics in m5s and m6s I've seen. Take that for what you will, it's just my own opinion and observations.

It's also hard to even want to hold the devs to a standard this old when the game has changed. Weight of the Land even as an individually fast mechanic comes relatively slow, somewhere in the 2.5-4s timing between individual weights. Even funky floor can't say that, because even if they are identical timing, the mechanics happen for a solid 30 seconds of continuous movement, while weight of the lands is 2 dodges and done, meaning the mechanic overall is substantially easier and if the player runs into problems, it's all of 5 seconds of total time and the mechanic is done.

Then there's the relative distance moved (WotL is higher individually, funky floor is vastly higher overall) and even if it lives up to the standard, it's a marked increase in bad fight design because WotL breaking the netcode shouldn't be the bare minimum. There should be a very, very healthy buffer above that.

But you can't have a healthy buffer in 1/2/4/8 mechanics design where the only difficulty adjustments you can possibly do are pace, punishment, and raw distance required to solve. It eventually just gets extremely easy and players, rightly and wrongly, demand harder content because 1/2/4/8 is predictable and extremely boring when there's literally only 1 possible solution. Why wrongly? Because most players can't recognize that the real problem is how encounters are being designed. Driving the game harder into the corner of bad mechanics design cannot possibly fix the problem without alienating large swaths of the playerbase as it inevitably turns the game into not only something it isn't, but something it never can reliably be.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

To be honest I would like more fights that test your knowledge of a job and game sense like M6S. People complain about it being a wall on PF but really the wall is just the lack of skill of the players. I'm not an amazing raider by any means, I got through adds phase as a healer, caster and melee, and finally cleared.

Raiders were asking for stuff like this for years, now we got it, and a bunch of people conditioned by ShB and EW want them to nerf it when there's no need. Next week this part of the fight is gonna be so easy the challenge will be very diminished.

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The tragedy is i'd go back to raiding in a heartbeat if all fights were like this, or the majority of them. But right now I can't be arsed to trudge through the usual slop that are the 3 other fights. So it feels like they're trying new things and bring back old ideas but the target audience has already fled the game anyway, and they'll cover their lack of job AoE balance and internal testing for the fight and just say that they tried new things, but players didn't like it and were walled by it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The tragedy is i'd go back to raiding in a heartbeat if all fights were like this, or the majority of them. But right now I can't be arsed to trudge through the usual slop that are the 3 other fights. So it feels like they're trying new things and bring back old ideas but the target audience has already fled the game anyway, and they'll cover their lack of job AoE balance and internal testing for the fight and just say that they tried new things, but players didn't like it and were walled by it.

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M6S is hampered by 2 things really. 1, it's still a SHB/EW/DT fight. 2, it's way too fast paced and way too tightly tuned.

We got M6S as kind of a thing raiders wanted, but it's an overbaked cake that's half on fire and still breaks the game instead of a coherent, well designed fight. It has a lot of fun ideas. The knight from T5, baited aoe puddles akin to t13 earthshakers, but this time cast from adds. An epic game of keep away like A12S or T13 has. But it's all overbaked and too much. Meanwhile, the jumps are a bit too precise (both beginning and volcano,) desert as a sequence takes up an arena twice the size it should be (look at similar mechanics in TEA/UWU/UCOB) and the few sane mechanics like clock into random lite party stacks look laughably small and basic because of how silly the rest of the arena is despite being...oddly normal mechanics for the terrible encounter design EW/DT has thrown at players. Like I could see that mechanic in stormblood fights with maybe +1/2 seconds on it to help it fit stormblood's pace a tiny bit better.

The fight design has gotten so extra in FFXIV, it's just full of mechanics rot to the point where even if the devs do something truly interesting, they completely botch the execution and still make a miserable fight. Because they're focusing too much on the mechanics getting harder/more engaging and not enough on the jobs. So much so that they break jobs to fit the mechanics instead of fitting mechanics to the jobs. It's frustrating, because one enriches the game, and the other erodes it.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

True but good people in PF shouldn't be gated for weeks on end because a fight is designed seemingly only for statics or PF with week 7 gear. It makes good players who can't static and don't have 12 hours a day to PF week 1 want to unsubscribe. I kinda do right now. 2% for days now is killing me. I spent 10 hours progging TEA to clear and 15 hours doing this. TEA was fun even in PF. This blows.

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You are not losing anything apart from your ego if you finish it a bit later then others

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Originally Posted by Taranok

M6S is hampered by 2 things really. 1, it's still a SHB/EW/DT fight. 2, it's way too fast paced and way too tightly tuned.

We got M6S as kind of a thing raiders wanted, but it's an overbaked cake that's half on fire and still breaks the game instead of a coherent, well designed fight. It has a lot of fun ideas. The knight from T5, baited aoe puddles akin to t13 earthshakers, but this time cast from adds. An epic game of keep away like A12S or T13 has. But it's all overbaked and too much. Meanwhile, the jumps are a bit too precise (both beginning and volcano,) desert as a sequence takes up an arena twice the size it should be (look at similar mechanics in TEA/UWU/UCOB) and the few sane mechanics like clock into random lite party stacks look laughably small and basic because of how silly the rest of the arena is despite being...oddly normal mechanics for the terrible encounter design EW/DT has thrown at players. Like I could see that mechanic in stormblood fights with maybe +1/2 seconds on it to help it fit stormblood's pace a tiny bit better.

The fight design has gotten so extra in FFXIV, it's just full of mechanics rot to the point where even if the devs do something truly interesting, they completely botch the execution and still make a miserable fight. Because they're focusing too much on the mechanics getting harder/more engaging and not enough on the jobs. So much so that they break jobs to fit the mechanics instead of fitting mechanics to the jobs. It's frustrating, because one enriches the game, and the other erodes it.

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The problem is that this game doesn't even have classes, a class direction, class synergies, class mechanics or real class abilities. There's nothing they could focus on or improve. It doesn't matter if its called Job or class. The Jobs in this game are basically only a selection of which button sequence you want to hammer for hours on end with different accompanying effects.

Compare that to WoW, an actually good game, every class has a unique feel, every class has standalone skills that impact the game world in ways other than "deals damage", you make choices depending on the situation or assessment, not because something is the next logical step in your 123>4>resource1>56>resource2>8 fixed rotation that never changes and every class synergizes with each other class in unique ways.

And why would they change anything as long as theres still some people left who gladly eat up and pay. Look, they're already forming a line with their plates in hand to get the next Savtrash or Ultislop served out of Master P's soup pot.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Compare that to WoW, an actually good game, every class has a unique feel, every class has standalone skills that impact the game world in ways other than "deals damage", you make choices depending on the situation or assessment, not because something is the next logical step in your 123>4>resource1>56>resource2>8 fixed rotation that never changes and every class synergizes with each other class in unique ways.

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The illusion of choice, yes.
Even with talent trees there is one best talent tree that does the most damage and that is what everyone plays.

Really the only thing I didn't like in 6 was aiming myself for the wings is just a little finnicky on controller sometimes. I was initially having trouble with targeting the correct target on controller but swapping to cone and targeting the closest mob made it less awful.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Compare that to WoW, an actually good game, every class has a unique feel, every class has standalone skills that impact the game world in ways other than "deals damage", you make choices depending on the situation or assessment, not because something is the next logical step in your 123>4>resource1>56>resource2>8 fixed rotation that never changes and every class synergizes with each other class in unique ways.

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The only thing I disagree with is WoW's class design is almost exclusively procedural stuff. You press buttons on cooldown in an order, or proc in an order. Then default to '1, 1, 1, 1, 1' until the next cooldown/proc. Their tank and healer design at a meta level blows FFXIV out of the water, but some people like the consistency of a fixed rotation, myself included.

That said, I mostly agree otherwise. At the very least FFXIV could learn a lot from WoW's tank and healer design.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

That said, I mostly agree otherwise. At the very least FFXIV could learn a lot from WoW's tank and healer design.

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Certainly when it comes to how those classes achieve their primary purpose.

Every tank in XIV is just the same flat % mitigation cooldowns and then some slightly different flavour ability, which rarely ever change your mitigation plan.
Meanwhile the tanks in WoW achieve "mitigate damage to not die and smooth out damage spikes to make your healer's life easier" in very different ways.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Certainly when it comes to how those classes achieve their primary purpose.

Every tank in XIV is just the same flat % mitigation cooldowns and then some slightly different flavour ability, which rarely ever change your mitigation plan.
Meanwhile the tanks in WoW achieve "mitigate damage to not die and smooth out damage spikes to make your healer's life easier" in very different ways.

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It's all a binary pass-fail, and when every healer has 50,000 separate oGCDs as strong as a medica 1, it's no surprise healing and tank design from a role perspective is complete garbage.

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Originally Posted by Valence

M6S is literally the anti raidplan fight from what I've seen. It goes against everything that the current raiding community does which is memorizing plans and executing a set of instructions to the letter. It requires people to think by themselves and talk with their party.

Is this a decent summary of it?

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Not entirely. Everything before and after adds phase is still the usual “know the strategy, do it right, make sure the boss dies too” unless you count the random dodge’s during the cactuses and the lightning as exceptions.

Adds phase itself is still following a plan, mainly just needing adjustments based in how things are going. As either MT or OT I’m still grabbing specific adds and taking them to specific places. The things that end up varying are
-When to spend resources and when to use either single target or aoe attacks so things die. This needs to be adjusted a bit based on the team, and also potentially each pull based on where the cat is randomly jumping to.
-How to move around, if there are more manta puddles than there should be. Sometimes they can take longer to die
-How to mitigate and heal, because if things die either sooner or later then the tanks will have taken either less or more damage. We also finally have to care about the which tanks and which healers are in the party

So it’s not like it’s the complete opposite of the usual Savage raid. More so that the adds phase takes several steps in a different direction, which is fun but also hard when a lot of players haven’t done it as much before, and then more so when in PF and playing with completely different players every time