How would you feel is level caps were integrated with the Main Story quests?

I would love for some time of level capped content...

But for this game...I can't see it working. You don't really spend enough time in mid levels to actually validate having level caps in mission lines.

I'm all for it.

Level capped stuff in xi was great. BCNMs ENMs, Garrison, all great. fun to do and level capped content. what I liked about them was I could take my friends to do bcnms etc even if they weren't 75 like me. It was great.

CoP was also awesome. CoP was one of the most memorable experiences I had in final fantasy xi, running through the 30caps 40 caps 50 caps etc. it was imo a truly amazing experience and I loved every minute of it.

If I could simply have hit 75 and blast my way though promy's, the aquaducts and sacrarium effortlessly then I honestly think I wouldn't have enjoyed it half as much or had even close to the sense of satisfaction from it all

Level capped stuff is great it keeps a challenge and it gives low level players stuff to do on their journey to the end game.

What they need to go is give incentives for people to go back and help others. this is evident even in the current game and level 50 contents. a common example I see in shouts is "united we Stand" I see loads of shouts for this and people don't go back and help. this is a clear example of how level caps aren't the real reason people get left behind and quit.

I would say with a fair degree of certainty if players got rewards for going back and helping others they'd be more willing to. If for example players got the 5k seals or something for going back and helping people do "United we Stand" those people shouting in ul'dah would fill there parties much faster. and the same would be true with level capped content.

level cap is great, what the games needs is an incentive that encourages people to play with and help others.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

actually you are off base here. i see many people shouting for help on lower level content all the time. normally it's a high level player that will go help them run it just because it won't take long to go in and steamroll something. i'm glad to go help someone do toto-rak because i can run through it and knock it off their list quickly, but i won't be as willing to do it if it takes a long time. adding a level sync is just a good way to stop me from being willing to go help someone do lower level content when they can't find a group their level to go do it.

is it as much fun for the low level player to get a high level person to go do the content for them? no, but i can assure you it's more fun than sitting there for hours and not being able to get anyone to help them at all.

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I agree with you, and if there was a level cap i guarentee I would not be helping any low levels period.

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

Only if I can wear my level 50 gear and have it scale down to the cap. I don't think anyone wants to have to keep gear sets for different levels when we already have 7 classes to keep track of.

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Ahhh someone who hasn't played FFXI LOL

I like the idea of level sync ... Allow the players to level their class however they like, but SE must make gears scale accordingly to the quest/mob level.

How many items are in this game? Thousands? How much inventory space do we have? 200? The bigger issue that needs to be addressed here is the lack of inventory space for all these different items that we already have in game. Without gear scaling, then placing caps will only alienate players from other players that aren't at their level range.

jc

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I agree with you, and if there was a level cap i guarentee I would not be helping any low levels period.

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If the repeatable content offered you, say, a seal reward? Would you then?

its a question of game design... maximum cap lv 35 for toto-rak it still would be much easier to clear it.. but seriously not lv 50 or in the end maybe lv 79 and one hit kill ifrit or somethin.

for what do you play this game? getting fast to max level and dont see anything from content? way to lv 50 is also end content.

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Originally Posted by Jocko

If the repeatable content offered you, say, a seal reward? Would you then?

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guys like him seriously would..



And i can speak about my linkshell.. our leader has maxed his jobs/classes REALLY fast.. while we have been leveling still with our second or third jobclass in the mid range of lv 25. we often never really could do something together with our LS leader.

"well we are going the first time to toto-rak, do you wanna come with us? oh i forgot.. all your classes are lv 50.." it was kind of like that. and we wanted to have challenge.. we wanted to receive exp while clearing that instanced dungeon..


ok now in 2.0. you have the choice of having more than just one character. it will lead players to make even more twinks, so that they can do low level stuff with new players of their LS again. Which i think sucks. in FFXI it worked so quiet well, WITHOUT creating a twink char..

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Originally Posted by Krausus

you think if they add level caps and sync then high levels will want to help low levels more? what game are you playing because in the one I play its hard enough to get a 50 to run you through content (unless in a good LS which I am) and that is quick, let alone get a 50 to come do that same content in a longer amount of time.

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well maybe it is.. because it is just a stupid task to one hit all low level monsters in it?
from time to time its fun to re-live old content stuff.

it worked in FFXI for many years. and Garrison, Avatar battles still have been very fun, after years. and maybe BECAUSE it was MORE than just running over the mobs like a tank.

personally i dont want to re-visit toto-rak with my lv 50 dragoon.. what should i do in there? kill all mobs with one aeo jump? that i can do in the openworld in front of ul'dah too, if i wan it.

Everyone seems to be complaining about "not wanting to do low level content", but in reality people don't help others do content that they're already levels above (even something as easy as getting 4/4 to enter ifrit).

I think the issue is the incentive to do more level capped content. Perhaps more rewards/seals for clearing, or scaled experience points earned in the instance (i.e. a lv30 will receive 600 exp, while a lv42 when scaled will receive 680).

There are a few things why level cap can work and would not work as stated before it breaks up the player base making it harder to get people to do higher level quests because people have to do level cap quests so progression is slower. The idea of level capped quests/story lines make the game harder than it needs to be if the quest is for a level 25 and i am level 50 that should mean the quest should be easy for me since i out level it. syncing again would split up the player base even more since after the boom of new quests and story lines are over with a few months later people who have finished those quests with a lot of sweat blood and tears (im looking at you CoP) wont want to go through that again for a new person cutting off new players way to join in in LS events or just to see what happens in the story because of a needless system.
the problem with level syncing in parties is mid level gear would become useless like in ffxi you could stay in the dunes until level 75 if you really wanted too wearing level 15 gear that cost 3k for the whole set from npc's this would hurt crafters since making mid level gear would just be wasting mats.

The system does have its plus sides it slows down RMT's since they would have to break caps on each char they make meaning a better economy and less NM's being over camped by lightning fast bots(i know right now this isn’t much of a problem but come 2.0 who knows).
Level sync was a welcome system to FFXI making parties were hassle free it made it possible for people who like to party together stay together no matter what level they were or time they had to play.

Well after that wall of text my answer to level caps are No this is a game and all people who play it should be able to advance the way they want how fast they want not being blocked at every turn.

They way i see it is capping in quest and story lines can be good in some situations but mostly hurts the endgame player base and in effect is just time sync to the everyday player and the hardcore players and a game killer to the casual player making it frustrating to break through into end game content.

I love how every single arguments against level caps is instantly solved by the Content Finder this community is so in love with..

Except, y'know, the asinine assumption that if you level cap some thing, naturally everything will be level capped...

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Originally Posted by Zante

They way i see it is capping in quest and story lines can be good in some situations but mostly hurts the endgame player base and in effect is just time sync to the everyday player and the hardcore players and a game killer to the casual player making it frustrating to break through into end game content.

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Hmm.. Time sink playing through actual story based content that involves meaningful progression, or time sink at end game where you fight the same guy a thousand times for one piece of armour that is instantly useless a month later...

What to choose, what to choose...

Scaling cap is an efficient strategy to make every content created challenging, while making it and accessible to all the community. I could go on forever with all the advantages.

The arguments presented against a level cap do not hold with a scaling cap. It's like comparing an apple and a steak.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

its a question of game design... maximum cap lv 35 for toto-rak it still would be much easier to clear it.. but seriously not lv 50 or in the end maybe lv 79 and one hit kill ifrit or somethin.

for what do you play this game? getting fast to max level and dont see anything from content? way to lv 50 is also end content.



guys like him seriously would..



And i can speak about my linkshell.. our leader has maxed his jobs/classes REALLY fast.. while we have been leveling still with our second or third jobclass in the mid range of lv 25. we often never really could do something together with our LS leader.

"well we are going the first time to toto-rak, do you wanna come with us? oh i forgot.. all your classes are lv 50.." it was kind of like that. and we wanted to have challenge.. we wanted to receive exp while clearing that instanced dungeon..


ok now in 2.0. you have the choice of having more than just one character. it will lead players to make even more twinks, so that they can do low level stuff with new players of their LS again. Which i think sucks. in FFXI it worked so quiet well, WITHOUT creating a twink char..




well maybe it is.. because it is just a stupid task to one hit all low level monsters in it?
from time to time its fun to re-live old content stuff.

it worked in FFXI for many years. and Garrison, Avatar battles still have been very fun, after years. and maybe BECAUSE it was MORE than just running over the mobs like a tank.

personally i dont want to re-visit toto-rak with my lv 50 dragoon.. what should i do in there? kill all mobs with one aeo jump? that i can do in the openworld in front of ul'dah too, if i wan it.

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right now I dont mind rushing someone through toto-rak. why? because it takes me 10 minutes or less to do it. If it was gonna take me 20 min + then I would tell you to find others that need it.....good luck. Do people really want to widen the gap between high level and low level players? All for the sake of feeling accomplished by beating toto-rak in a level appropriate group? That they will do once. Really?

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Originally Posted by Krausus

right now I dont mind rushing someone through toto-rak. why? because it takes me 10 minutes or less to do it. If it was gonna take me 20 min + then I would tell you to find others that need it.....good luck. Do people really want to widen the gap between high level and low level players? All for the sake of feeling accomplished by beating toto-rak in a level appropriate group? That they will do once. Really?

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what if the rewards are better? what if you got 500-750 seals on top of loot for every run that took 20 minutes with a level cap? you don't feel accomplished because the rewards are not appropriate. if there was a 500-750 seal reward for every time i helped someone do it, i'd be helping just about everyone do it that shouted.

i'm assuming you hate Darkhold. little to no reward for repeats (i'm talking about helping someone, not speed runs with people that know wtf they are doing). takes forever.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

right now I dont mind rushing someone through toto-rak. why? because it takes me 10 minutes or less to do it. If it was gonna take me 20 min + then I would tell you to find others that need it.....good luck. Do people really want to widen the gap between high level and low level players? All for the sake of feeling accomplished by beating toto-rak in a level appropriate group? That they will do once. Really?

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aha ok.. well i can speak from my ls... my ls leader was very early capped in all jobs and classes... so now we wanted to do toto-rak with some LS members.. he did not come with us in the end.

why? because we wanted to gain experience points while we clear that dungeon and not for zero exp. and to enjoy this dungeon again.. and not to just finish it like on a "to do" list..


i would not go inside this dungeon again, with my lv 50 char.. because for what? i play this game for having experiences.. and when i would be downgraded again.. like in FFXI toto-rak could be again.. FUN


and because you are just a person who is doing things because of rewards, doesnt mean i am like that. in our ls we do thinks because of fun. if i could level sync with low level members and level in a low level dungeon. i would do so. but like we have it now. i cant.

its from time to time fun, to enjoy low level content again.


think of toto-rak being a challenge for you again..

And as i said. it is just ridiculous, RIDICULOUS to beat ifrit in less than 30 secs.. even in story mode..
that'd be much fun for your new LS players in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

what if the rewards are better? what if you got 500-750 seals on top of loot for every run that took 20 minutes with a level cap? you don't feel accomplished because the rewards are not appropriate. if there was a 500-750 seal reward for every time i helped someone do it, i'd be helping just about everyone do it that shouted.

i'm assuming you hate Darkhold. little to no reward for repeats (i'm talking about helping someone, not speed runs with people that know wtf they are doing). takes forever.

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no because I can get 1000 seals from doing caravan. Its not about the reward its about helping the low level player get through the quest, most people I know dont care about the dungeon, they just want to get it out of the way because the true game doesn't start until 50. I have spent more then my fair share of time in darkhold. I still dont mind doing it every now and then to help folks get their quest done because it can also be done in a short amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

no because I can get 1000 seals from doing caravan.

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Can't get 1k every time. can't even get in every time depending on who's there. there are only 3 places to do this, and they are almost always camped. i dont' know if things are different on Gungnir, but in my experience caravan is not that reliable. I've gotten most of my seals from soloing the low level caravan and camping NMs.

not to mention caravan is retarded boring.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

Its not about the reward its about helping the low level player get through the quest, most people I know dont care about the dungeon, they just want to get it out of the way because the true game doesn't start until 50. I have spent more then my fair share of time in darkhold. I still dont mind doing it every now and then to help folks get their quest done because it can also be done in a short amount of time.

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A lot more people would help lowbies/newbies if there were better rewards for repeats. Not everyone is willing to help just because. Especially if they don't know the person. better rewards for repeats will alleviate this.

I only help LS members on totorak/DH runs because i have all of my AF from there, the gear is crap, and i've completed the mission. it's not about you, it's about everyone else. It would be nice if there was additional incentive for helping people complete DH/Totorak so that way it would be easier to form pug groups. not everyone wants to join an LS (I'm not one of them. I'm in an LS and i enjoy the company they provide as well as the sense of community) and they want to be able to hop on, shout for a group, and get content done. that's not possible at the moment.

When I see someone shouting for hours in Uldah for a DH AF run i just think 'well...that sucks for them' and i continue on my way, because i have no incentive to help them. (unless i'm just feeling nice and i have nothing better to do with my time. and that's very very rare)

It seems the only standing argument for not level syncing content is for the people who really just want to rush through the game.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

Can't get 1k every time. can't even get in every time depending on who's there. there are only 3 places to do this, and they are almost always camped. i dont' know if things are different on Gungnir, but in my experience caravan is not that reliable. I've gotten most of my seals from soloing the low level caravan and camping NMs.

not to mention caravan is retarded boring.

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maybe things are that different on Gungnir as getting into caravans is usually not an issue and getting 1000 seals is more common then not. Also Toto-rak is equally as boring.

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A lot more people would help lowbies/newbies if there were better rewards for repeats. Not everyone is willing to help just because. Especially if they don't know the person. better rewards for repeats will alleviate this.

I only help LS members on totorak/DH runs because i have all of my AF from there, the gear is crap, and i've completed the mission. it's not about you, it's about everyone else. It would be nice if there was additional incentive for helping people complete DH/Totorak so that way it would be easier to form pug groups. not everyone wants to join an LS (I'm not one of them. I'm in an LS and i enjoy the company they provide as well as the sense of community) and they want to be able to hop on, shout for a group, and get content done. that's not possible at the moment.

When I see someone shouting for hours in Uldah for a DH AF run i just think 'well...that sucks for them' and i continue on my way, because i have no incentive to help them. (unless i'm just feeling nice and i have nothing better to do with my time. and that's very very rare)

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only if the rewards are better then alternatives. Also not sure why DH was brought up in the first place since it wouldn't fall under level cap/sync. Also why are people so dead set on making the same content more repeatable, give me more new content if you ask me.

All I'm saying is be careful what you ask for, you might get it and I'm willing to bet new players will have a harder time finding help with low level content if they add caps.

Most people will not have every Class at cap. Level capping would allow people to XP while helping people complete lower level content. When you get level capped you gain XP for the level you are capped at.

The only reason people would not want level caps is because they dont actually want to play the game, they just want to gear grind on repeatable Endgame Content.

Content Find would eliminate the problem of finding Content Parties.

XP and Seals and Gear would Serve as rewards.

People would actually learn how to play before hitting level 50.

The game would actually offer challenging content.

There really are no Cons.

What's the point of Rushing to the End of a Game where all you do is repeat the same thing over and again?

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Originally Posted by Krausus

only if the rewards are better then alternatives. Also not sure why DH was brought up in the first place since it wouldn't fall under level cap/sync.

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I think the fact that Darkhold doesn't come under the level sync and people still struggle with getting help so much only goes to prove that level caps wouldn't be the thing holding people back.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

no because I can get 1000 seals from doing caravan.

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True but caravan is boring. If I help with into the dark/af in DH then its an extra 5 mins to kill baatraal and if I walk away with 1 boss drop i've got 1500 seals for my time. It's for that reason I'm more willing to help people get af in dh than cc.

the only thing that holds people back is that there really is no incentive to help anyone.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

Also why are people so dead set on making the same content more repeatable, give me more new content if you ask me. .

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Everything in the game at present is spammable to crap thats partly why the drop rates suck ass. if drops were decent you could burn 15-16 avs in a day and have everything you want.

old content new content its all the same. spammable as hell with low drops and something i hoping 2.0 fixes. i'd gladly take a 12 hour reentry timer in exchange for decent drop rates...

First i'd like to point out that soemwhere the Dungeon has changed from Toto-rak (an actual low level dungeon), to Dark Hold, which though easy by current standards, is not a low level dungeon, its just a very esay late level/cap dungeon.

Unless we're discussing DH being the lvl 50 cap quest, then lets try not to confuse the issue. You can get over 1000 Seals from DH, that doesn't help a lvl 30 at Toto-rak though. which should be the main issue cause that would be the main problem.

You can be lvl 50 in DH and still chance a death. Level sync need not apply.
You can currently run past most everything to get people AF, Long dungeon adventure doesn't really apply here.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

A thought occurred to me, although probably one of the more unpopular ideas, what if things such as level caps were integrated into the progression of the Main Storyline? It would allow for IMO, a much more "Final Fantasy" feel to the game (initially anyway). This could allow for a much deeper story filled with more boss battles and team oriented challenges (at-least for players starting from scratch).

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I'm not sure how putting in lvl cap story missions will make it more FF like... ?? I mean really you lost me on that point there since as far as I remember playing all the FF games only FFXI had lvl cap story. You could actually grind out and out lvl almost any boss in the game if you really wanted to and plow through it in almost every FF game... so tell me how that makes lvl capping FF feeling?

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Jocko

Level caps having nothing to do with that

People seem to misunderstand the point of level caps. You're not forced to do a piece of content before you hit a certain level, it simply reverts your character to the appropriate level when doing said content. IE, when doing Totorak, you'd sync to level 30 instead of being able to bum rush it at 50, therefore keeping the content balanced at it's intended difficulty

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The problem is OP's post is ambiguous. It could be read that they're asking for Promythion-style caps that simply sync you down to a level (a la Rift's Mentoring or XI's own level sync and capped zones), it could also be that they're advocating Limit Breaks, and that's part of the issue and confusion here: there's two different issues being argued, and nobody is on the same page.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

A thought occurred to me, although probably one of the more unpopular ideas, what if things such as level caps were integrated into the progression of the Main Storyline? It would allow for IMO, a much more "Final Fantasy" feel to the game (initially anyway).

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Originally Posted by Firesped

One of the things you could do in the older Final Fantasy games, was to out level the content so you could beat it easier. I don't think we should have level caps at all.

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Assuming you're referring to FFXI Limit Break style caps (that is, you need to beat certain quests to be able to advance your level), as Firesped mentions, this has never been an element in FF games. You've almost always had the option to grind (although to be honest, I haven't beat XIII/XIII-2, so maybe you can't in recent titles) and push ahead, you've rarely had to advance the story to specifically advance your characters and level (only specific instances, like unlocking the upgraded jobs in the original FF, come to mind).

In my original post, I should have worded it to be "level synced content".

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Originally Posted by Viritess

First i'd like to point out that soemwhere the Dungeon has changed from Toto-rak (an actual low level dungeon), to Dark Hold, which though easy by current standards, is not a low level dungeon, its just a very esay late level/cap dungeon.

Unless we're discussing DH being the lvl 50 cap quest, then lets try not to confuse the issue. You can get over 1000 Seals from DH, that doesn't help a lvl 30 at Toto-rak though. which should be the main issue cause that would be the main problem.

You can be lvl 50 in DH and still chance a death. Level sync need not apply.
You can currently run past most everything to get people AF, Long dungeon adventure doesn't really apply here.

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Sorry. Personnally my refences to Darkhold have been in relation to the arguement that having level capped content would prevent players making progress and drive them to quit.

I referred to darkhold and united we stand in my earlier posts because they show that level caps are not what prevents people making progress as even without level caps on these 2 examples people are struggling to get through them and thus they are prevented from progressing

Thus imo using the arguement that level capped content would prevent progression is total bs as proved by the examples above and plenty of others. the real obstacle that hinders progression is the lack of incentives for people to help. and nothing to do with levels or possible caps etc.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Sorry. Personnally my refences to Darkhold have been in relation to the arguement that having level capped content would prevent players making progress and drive them to quit.

I referred to darkhold and united we stand in my earlier posts because they show that level caps are not what prevents people making progress as even without level caps on these 2 examples people are struggling to get through them and thus they are prevented from progressing

Thus imo using the arguement that level capped content would prevent progression is total bs as proved by the examples above and plenty of others. the real obstacle that hinders progression is the lack of incentives for people to help. and nothing to do with levels or possible caps etc.

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Fair enough, though how would adding additonal hinderances at lower levels help the situation? Thats what i'm wondering.

As far as rewards the constant issue is if its good enough to pull a large amount of people that wouldn't help to it, then Its possibly more rewarding than suitable level stuff.

If we're discussing rewards such as seals at this point, you could run through DH and get say 1000 seals, or toto rak and get 300. well if you bump up the pay out of toto rak, then the ease of toto0rak becomes an easier farm.

Level sync is fine, and i think a good mechanic for those who want to run a dungeon at the intended level. And i'd support such a feature. The question is why does that feature need to be hand in hand with stopping a newer player at X levels?

Peehaps its because we're so many pages in that we have multiple points now being discussed, but we are in a thread discussing Level cap quests. Which i don't support. Level-sync for dungeons is a fair mechanic on its own, however, I don't think its existance need hinge on Level caps.

Nor do i think we would need a level cap quest system for some system of Level-sync to benefit the community of players.

Even the GC quests you've mentioned has frustraited folks, including myself, so far due to getting a group together. But atleast i could go work on some levels while i tried to find folks to join. And thats a progressive story sort of "on the side" of a basic gaming activity. So if GC quests gate via groups, and levels gate via groups, We stand to have a percentage of players crafting because they can't do much else.

I understand you like the idea. And perhaps enjoyed it in FF11. But i honestly don't think Putting Level caps in is a good idea. You can adjust rewards, Add rewards, add a level-sync, Give medals, handshakes. Have NPC Girlies come and kissem. But if people have something else they want to be doing, its still going to be tougher to get people to help.

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Originally Posted by Viritess

Fair enough, though how would adding additonal hinderances at lower levels help the situation? Thats what i'm wondering..

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I guess thats a perspective issue. To relate to the level caps of XI and CoP. did I consider them hinderances? No. For the most part I had jobs above and beyond the level caps of CoP but I ran alot of the story with friends who were newer to the game. They'd hit level 30 and they'd have something to do the beginning chapter of an epic story. Then they'd hit 40 in drive to find out what happens next and they had the next chapter waiting for them. at 50 they had chapter 3 etc. It was never a hinderence it was a goal. it gave people something meaningfull to do in between levelling.

kind of ties in with one of the major complaints about this games there is no low-mid level content and pretty much the only thing you have to do before 50 is level to 50. borrriiiiinnnnnngg. and i also stand by what i had originally said in that CoP would never have been so epic if you could simply hit 75 and faceroll your way to chapter 8. and CoP was widely regarded as the best story xi had partly because of that epicness.

any low-mid level content they put in is going to be worthless if you can simply trounce it as a level 50. and another example of capped contents could be things like bcnms / enms etc,

i kinda also feel that most of the people against capped people are the ones who wantto hit max level trounce all the content effortlessly get to the end and complain theres nothing to do......