Frontlines: There should not be ANY rewards for 2nd or 3rd place

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapaxInfiniti

Amazing how bad a take this is and how many people are salivating over it.

---

In fact, it's the same story as the drama in chaotic raids. Only now the group of people who like PvP and the group who visit FL once for the sake of roulette intersect.

PvP players interested in more quality matchaces, like hardcore players interested in fast and clean progs and clears. But, in PvP case you can't offer players more soft type of content. So we get terrible matchmaking situation.
These are literally two completely different categories of players and mixing them in one place is a bad idea from the start.

Most likely, it assumed that the player should grow in many ways?

The path of prohibitions and punishments leads nowhere.
No matter how much someone would like to kick and ban everyone in a row (even if deservedly so), it is not the fault of these players that the developer gave them the opportunity to participate in matches for rewards.

Moreover, it is still the only way to keep the FL queue alive.

What's funny is that I encountered this problem for the first time in FF14, which is not surprising, because the game does not sell itself as PvP-oriented.
In other games of this genre this problem does not exist, simply because they all by default assume that you will inevitably participate in PvP. Therefore such discussions do not arise, and if they do, then usually for such players they usually open a "peaceful" server.

And so, if in ranked CC games devs separated PvP players from the rest, but in casual FL matches, i really no idea how to do that.

So OP is thinking in the right direction. He wants to improve the quality of matches, not take away awards, but proposed most simple and rude way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolks

When I tank a dungeon, the amount of times I'm puzzled that one of the mobs dies faster than the others, and then realize it's because the DRG is single targeting drives me nuts. I brought it up once, and the guys said, "my single target does more damage." No it doesn't. I took the time to explain it to him, and he was like IDGAF, single target more damage. So I gave up, roll my eyes, and quietly steam as the trash mobs take FOR - EV - ER.

---

I can sympathize with the frustration, but the truth of the matter is, that you too enable this kind of behavior by not stopping the run then and there and insisting that either that DRG be kicked, or you. At the end, this player got their way 100%. And it mustn't matter how far the dungeon is, even before the last boss. We have the same kind of arguments and behaviors in Frontline as well, which is where the whole problem originates from in the first place. That's why I advocated that every enabler should also receive strikes for any statement that excuses such behavior.

People on this game are too soft. Wherever these morons are, be that AR roulette, in your duty, in Frontlines. Kick their asses out. If this were any other MMORPG you'd get reamed out for deliberately playing like trash, clowned on, thrown out of the dungeon, and added to raiding blacklists. Nobody has got time to waste dragging these dead weight losers around, and their friends who enable this behaviour should get the same punishment. It's okay to hurt these peoples feelings because they most certainly don't care about anyone else around them.

Let's not even pretend that they are "Participating" in anything. They're not. They are wasting a spot someone else could have filled on your team who would have actually at the very least made a half hearted attempt at participation. The more these lethargic losers get kicked for their crap gameplay, the longer the penalty should be. Get kicked from Frontlines 3 times for lethargic behaviour? Week long penalty. Keep doing it? Watch that number grow into months. I love to see the tears falling from the faces of people who think that asking people to perform the bare minimum expected of them in a duty is unfair. If you can't handle the heat get the hell out of the kitchen and go back to AFKing in venues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archeron

People on this game are too soft.

---

More like current frontlines is awful game mode

1) 1v1v1 is unfair
2) randomness of pve towers spawn is unfair (magnified by 1, i saw a bunch of games ended from literally start based on spawns)
3) battle high is unfair (magnified by 1)
4) people figured out matchmaking is trash, so you can easy meet premades consisting of multiple groups in same team = fair for them (magnified by 1) and 3) )
5) overall class balance is bad, doesn't help that ff14 doesn't have basic things wow CLASSIC has and i am not covering lame +dmg -dmg for frontlines (magnified by 4), meta stacking)
6) this should be in 5), ff14 netcode is trash

Just remove frontlines and spread devs workload (which is nearly zero just by looking at what they are doing) elsewhere.

1) 1v1 would be even more unfair since you'd remove the single lever mechanic allowing for both losing teams to focus on the winning one. No matter what you say about clowns that keep fighting each other instead of attacking the first team, in most FL games I've seen, people actually do go after the first team.
2) rng is what make games less of the same and different every time. The lack of rng is exactly what made Secure stale and current Shatter incredibly dull and predictable. I do think that their rng could be tuned better so that it doesn't spawn completely lopsided but more balanced across the maps.
3) battle high is a reward that rewards people actually engaging into pvp instead of only going for objectives. The day people will understand that, they'll understand how FL are meant to be played effectively.
4) matchmaking in all pvp modes definitely needs improvement.
5) 7.2 and their vaunted, promised FL rework and balancing cannot come soon enough. Kinda curious to see how it's gonna go.
6) yep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

1) 1v1 would be even more unfair since you'd remove the single lever mechanic allowing for both losing teams to focus on the winning one. No matter what you say about clowns that keep fighting each other instead of attacking the first team, in most FL games I've seen, people actually do go after the first team.
2) rng is what make games less of the same and different every time. The lack of rng is exactly what made Secure stale and current Shatter incredibly dull and predictable. I do think that their rng could be tuned better so that it doesn't spawn completely lopsided but more balanced across the maps.
3) battle high is a reward that rewards people actually engaging into pvp instead of only going for objectives. The day people will understand that, they'll understand how FL are meant to be played effectively.
4) matchmaking in all pvp modes definitely needs improvement.
5) 7.2 and their vaunted, promised FL rework and balancing cannot come soon enough. Kinda curious to see how it's gonna go.
6) yep

---

Wanted to endorse this point explicitly as a small contribution to preventing the devs from reducing FL RNG. It's precisely what gives PvP a different flavor from PvE. The lack of it in Shatter does indeed make that map (for me) unplayable.

Also a general point: there is nothing "unfair" about randomness in a mode in which one gets to play from all spawn positions and experience all node spawn combinations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archeron

People on this game are too soft. Wherever these morons are, be that AR roulette, in your duty, in Frontlines. Kick their asses out. If this were any other MMORPG you'd get reamed out for deliberately playing like trash, clowned on, thrown out of the dungeon, and added to raiding blacklists. Nobody has got time to waste dragging these dead weight losers around, and their friends who enable this behaviour should get the same punishment. It's okay to hurt these peoples feelings because they most certainly don't care about anyone else around them.

Let's not even pretend that they are "Participating" in anything. They're not. They are wasting a spot someone else could have filled on your team who would have actually at the very least made a half hearted attempt at participation. The more these lethargic losers get kicked for their crap gameplay, the longer the penalty should be. Get kicked from Frontlines 3 times for lethargic behaviour? Week long penalty. Keep doing it? Watch that number grow into months. I love to see the tears falling from the faces of people who think that asking people to perform the bare minimum expected of them in a duty is unfair. If you can't handle the heat get the hell out of the kitchen and go back to AFKing in venues.

---

Naw this take is 100% valid. We got ppl crying that msq is too hard, lvl 100 dungeons too hard, normal raid arcadian too hard, pvp too hard, learning viper was too hard, weaving rotations too hard, damn allot stuff in ff14 seems to be too hard lately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Naw this take is 100% valid. We got ppl crying that msq is too hard, lvl 100 dungeons too hard, normal raid arcadian too hard, pvp too hard, learning viper was too hard, weaving rotations too hard, damn allot stuff in ff14 seems to be too hard lately.

---

They'll be begging for the game to have auto-play like some mobile game any day now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

It's precisely what gives PvP a different flavor from PvE.

---

Woah i must be a strange person coming from wow and thinking that pvp even in bgs should be about of outplaying enemy by your skill not by literally first spawned rng towers (i had like 500 points lead win against 2 teams in that 700 points map (yes i really dont care about naming of these obnoxious battlegrounds)).

Rng towers can be fine, but as i said, 1v1v1 makes it worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

Woah i must be a strange person coming from wow and thinking that pvp even in bgs should be about of outplaying enemy by your skill not by literally first spawned rng towers (i had like 500 points lead win against 2 teams in that 700 points map (yes i really dont care about naming of these obnoxious battlegrounds)).

Rng towers can be fine, but as i said, 1v1v1 makes it worse.

---

RNG towers can't be fine because Square Enix isn't capable of making competent changes to Frontlines at this point. Anytime Square Enix has changed something about Frontlines, it has catastrophically fucked it up. Shatter was a favorite map, and instead of reworking Seal Rock, Or Borderland Ruins, they ruined a map most people looked forward to playing on. I don't want SE to put their grubby hands on any other maps since we know all they'll do is neuter them with their incompent game design. Almost universally every change that came after 6.1 has been bad for Frontlines and that trend is going to continue until the mode is completely drained of anything resembling competitive PvP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

Woah i must be a strange person coming from wow and thinking that pvp even in bgs should be about of outplaying enemy by your skill not by literally first spawned rng towers (i had like 500 points lead win against 2 teams in that 700 points map (yes i really dont care about naming of these obnoxious battlegrounds)).

Rng towers can be fine, but as i said, 1v1v1 makes it worse.

---

Rushing to capture the first-spawned towers is frequently a mistake. The team with favorable early spawns has less opportunity to get BH and frequently becomes targeted by the other two. (This is less true on Shatter, but who cares about Shatter.)

Not sure where I suggested PvP should be anything other than attempting to outplay the enemy. The issue is predictable objective spawns makes the game dull. Hence RNG is critical to the PvP experience.

Unfortunately, the largest random fact remains which team you get assigned to, but again that evens out over time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IceEyes

And so, if in ranked CC games devs separated PvP players from the rest, but in casual FL matches, i really no idea how to do that.

So OP is thinking in the right direction. He wants to improve the quality of matches, not take away awards, but proposed most simple and rude way.

---

Thanks! I think after starting this thread, I realised that there definitely are 2 types of player, and I didn't realise how much of a "hardcore pvp player" i am. Funny how that happens.
I think casual gamers are super valuable, and if casuals get completely overlooked - the "hardcore" community will quickly die, because there would be more hardcore players quitting the game thatn new players getting sucked in.

I still think balancing reward structure slightly to encourage better games and not nerf the rewards completely might be good enough to keep the casuals interested enough, and games to be more OK for hardcore group.

[edit]
AND custom FL games for those discord qsyncs, that wouldn't have any rewards/achievements at all. Those are usually for hardcore pvp players who probably have all the rewards anyway and just want to have fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

More like current frontlines is awful game mode

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

Just remove frontlines and spread devs workload (which is nearly zero just by looking at what they are doing) elsewhere.

---

Sir, this is Wendy's :D - it's a thread about how to make frontlines a better game mode by changing reward structure.
I thought to counter your points, but as an OP, i don't want to derail the conversation about general frontline mechanics - there are other threads that discuss it.
[edit] However I see where you are coming from and I genuinely believe that changing reward structure to encourage play to win behaviour would alleviate your criticisms of the mode in all instances aside from netcode. That it wont' change. [/edit]

I won't be responding to any attempts at personal attacks in a previous message, because I see them as an attempt to derail the conversation, and are frankly beside the point.
I am not some evil mastermind that is ruling the EU frontlines with premades - chill your beans :D. If you play on Light/Chaos regularly, we might have played together. I queue frontlines with friends sometimes, but 80-90% of my 2.5k games are solo.

If you don't like frontlines - I encourage you not to queue for it. As i said - it's my favourite game mode.
There are plenty of other ways to get your exp, tomes etc. This game provides with ample opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TofuLove

If you don't like frontlines - I encourage you not to queue for it. As i said - it's my favourite game mode.
There are plenty of other ways to get your exp, tomes etc. This game provides with ample opportunities.

---

This message should pop up whenever someone queues for FL. Similarly, if you queue into alliance roulette, maybe the warning "There is a possibility you are about to enter a Crystal Tower raid. Please don't whine if this occurs."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This message should pop up whenever someone queues for FL. Similarly, if you queue into alliance roulette, maybe the warning "There is a possibility you are about to enter a Crystal Tower raid. Please don't whine if this occurs."

---

Remove frontline roulette and xp gained from just playing it. Don't like my ideas? Go play other games with better pvp. As i said before and repeat again, op is just a premade baiter. If someone is not a baiter in this topic but just too dense, again, please try to play other pvp games where skill matters, lose matches there and rethink if someone should get nothing for 2/3 place.

I don't think i need to give you examples from the same wow classic (especially 2019) and some clownfiesta that was in sod. You all just have never encountered people from private server era that went to classic and will just stomp anything anywhere 24/7.

Want people be more interested in bgs? Make it less rng/which premade horde is better dependant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

Remove frontline roulette and xp gained from just playing it. Don't like my ideas? Go play other games with better pvp. As i said before and repeat again, op is just a premade baiter. If someone is not a baiter in this topic but just too dense, again, please try to play other pvp games where skill matters, lose matches there and rethink if someone should get nothing for 2/3 place.

I don't think i need to give you examples from the same wow classic (especially 2019) and some clownfiesta that was in sod. You all just have never encountered people from private server era that went to classic and will just stomp anything anywhere 24/7.

Want people be more interested in bgs? Make it less rng/which premade horde is better dependant.

---

That's a very... self-assured demand. The goal here is airing ideas that might make FL better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stasya

1) 1v1v1 is unfair
2) randomness of pve towers spawn is unfair (magnified by 1, i saw a bunch of games ended from literally start based on spawns)
3) battle high is unfair (magnified by 1)
4) people figured out matchmaking is trash, so you can easy meet premades consisting of multiple groups in same team = fair for them (magnified by 1) and 3) )
5) overall class balance is bad, doesn't help that ff14 doesn't have basic things wow CLASSIC has and i am not covering lame +dmg -dmg for frontlines (magnified by 4), meta stacking)
6) this should be in 5), ff14 netcode is trash

Just remove frontlines and spread devs workload (which is nearly zero just by looking at what they are doing) elsewhere.

---

1.) People don't have time for blowout games. Pushing for 1v1 severely amplifies those that want to surrender from a bad start.
2.) You can't fully blame RNG if folks are not willing to fight/defend.
3.) You can thank those that complained about losing battle high entirely upon death a long time ago.
4.) Team balanced is done solely by group size, not stats. That's why hunting premades are still dominant all round.
5.) Things will probably go smoothly if they took a look at healing in general, Recuperate included.
6.) No disagreeing with you there.

I am starting to get slightly annoyed with people calling for the removal of pvp. That is main content for me. I refuse to go back to doing dailies, not when I have to play frontlines in a PvE dungeon because the tank decided to overpull and everyone wipes because the healer couldn't keep up.

I have never liked PvP and used to AFK just for the glam and exp. I got bored of AFKing and started actually putting abilities in my crossbarr and using them. I still don't find it particularly fun but it's the only place where jobs feel different and it isn't any worse than running any other boring roulette. But I definitely wouldn't touch it if I didn't get any reward out of it most of the times. Glam is cool but not that cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This message should pop up whenever someone queues for FL. Similarly, if you queue into alliance roulette, maybe the warning "There is a possibility you are about to enter a Crystal Tower raid. Please don't whine if this occurs."

---

Should also warn you you’re about to enter a more raid to.

In the last few days I had some trash tier games.
Yesterday night was particularly bad. I think Seal Rock is actually somehow worse than Shatter sometimes for casual performance. Shatter is bad because of the ice "distraction", but on seal rock because the map is so big, people get super lazy, and some more casual players think it's okay to "guard" nodes and not engage in any pvp (let them fight meme). Yesterday I queue'd in, and in the first encounter I realised we are only like 5 people pushing against 24. I was playing BLM and whilst i can go into ice phase, it's a class that's really not super designed for holding the frontline. Our team just refuses to go in and when I decide to maybe throw some objectives down into alliance chat. Get told to shut up almost immediately and stop crying and that this mode doesn't matter. This wasn't just 1 person, but more like 10 people. Ok. I am experienced enough in blacklisting people, not much offends me :D

After we obviously lost the game coming in at deep third, I find myself on the top for damage with many deaths. I scroll down the scoreboard to see people barely doing 100k damage and dying. That checks out. These people shouldn't be getting a free pass at the expense of wasted time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moqi

I have never liked PvP and used to AFK just for the glam and exp. I got bored of AFKing and started actually putting abilities in my crossbarr and using them. I still don't find it particularly fun but it's the only place where jobs feel different and it isn't any worse than running any other boring roulette. But I definitely wouldn't touch it if I didn't get any reward out of it most of the times. Glam is cool but not that cool.

---

I read your comment whenever you posted it and it kinda stumped me. If you don't mind, could you answer some questions so i can get an understanding:
What modes/mini games do you enjoy?
Does exp matter that much because you can literally get exp for stuff you probably enjoy more?
As for glam are you talking about series rewards?
Would you find it to be more fun if you were more experienced at it, kinda like when you know the rules of the game - it can be more interesting to play it?

Just wanted to add to the conversation, to capture an exchange i had with a friend about this thread, as I think they raised an interesting point. They aren't subbed right now and apparently you can't comment without sub...

Their take is that my proposal is NOT a good idea. They said rather than taking rewards away, there should be more incentive for winning, because otherwise you are risking with killing queues.

Their suggestion was that the following rewards is what MMO players care about:
GOOD gear
Mounts
Minions

So something from that list would be good. They also said titles are terrible rewards.

There was another conversation that I was part of recently, that it would be great if it was possible to get raid level gear via pvp. And I think that would also make good rewards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TofuLove

There was another conversation that I was part of recently, that it would be great if it was possible to get raid level gear via pvp. And I think that would also make good rewards.

---

Not a fan of this idea. Doesn't make sense to blend raiding and pvp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Not a fan of this idea. Doesn't make sense to blend raiding and pvp.

---

I guess raiders may be more inclined to actually participate than the usual "gimme my rewards" crowd, but agreed, rewards associated with PvP should be somehow related to PvP. Another reason the current gear coffer was a bad idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I guess raiders may be more inclined to actually participate than the usual "gimme my rewards" crowd, but agreed, rewards associated with PvP should be somehow related to PvP. Another reason the current gear coffer was a bad idea.

---

Raiders would probably contribute quite a bit to the premade groups that many here complain about now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menriq

Raiders would probably contribute quite a bit to the premade groups that many here complain about now.

---

Yeah I guess they're more likely to have a static ready to go. I'm not fond of premades, but the solution to them is competent players on opposing teams IMO.

In front lines no its to rng based, and parties can legit stun lock people to death with how many people exist in front lines, Now IN CC I agree with you but not in something as horribly designed/ rng and stun lock gameplay like frontlines is.

I would be okay with it if 2 things happened

You halfed the amount of people in each team
and 2. you remove the rng from the frontlines

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daughterofdeath

In front lines no its to rng based, and parties can legit stun lock people to death with how many people exist in front lines, Now IN CC I agree with you but not in something as horribly designed/ rng and stun lock gameplay like frontlines is.

I would be okay with it if 2 things happened

You halfed the amount of people in each team
and 2. you remove the rng from the frontlines

---

What's the random number generated in Frontline?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exmo

Not a fan of this idea. Doesn't make sense to blend raiding and pvp.

---

Truth be told I am not sure about this suggestion myself, but thought it's interesting enough to mention. Raid gear treadmill is a whole other thing...
What "good" gear means, is different to different players i suppose. Is it a glam, or is it the ilvl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daughterofdeath

In front lines no its to rng based, and parties can legit stun lock people to death with how many people exist in front lines, Now IN CC I agree with you but not in something as horribly designed/ rng and stun lock gameplay like frontlines is.

I would be okay with it if 2 things happened

You halfed the amount of people in each team
and 2. you remove the rng from the frontlines

---

From the mention of frontline rng, I always assume a person is quite new to frontline as a game mode. I assume RNG you are talking about is node spawn patterns. From my personal experience the only real impactful RNG is how good your team and enemy is at PVPing and strategy. If everyone is equally good at pvp (yourself and enemy), node spawn can become a factor and is actually what creates the fun. Look at shatter - the lack of RNG in node spawn is not well received by a lot of players, as it's seen as boring and repetitive. Though in shatter like in other maps, what usually decides the victory is how good people are at killing.

"Stunlock gameplay" is a whole other thing, and crowd control abilities are too many in FL, and something that has been mentioned by a lot of players. This is because skills have been designed for CC and not Frontline. Thankfully all enemies have them and it's not just one team, so this isn't really relevant to this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TofuLove

From the mention of frontline rng, I always assume a person is quite new to frontline as a game mode. I assume RNG you are talking about is node spawn patterns. From my personal experience the only real impactful RNG is how good your team and enemy is at PVPing and strategy. If everyone is equally good at pvp (yourself and enemy), node spawn can become a factor and is actually what creates the fun. Look at shatter - the lack of RNG in node spawn is not well received by a lot of players, as it's seen as boring and repetitive. Though in shatter like in other maps, what usually decides the victory is how good people are at killing.

---

Yup, exactly this. I understand it can be frustrating when two S-ranks spawn right next to an enemy team near the end of a match and you lose what looked like a sure win, but that evens out over time and is a rare occurrence anyway. What the spawns do is prevent the repetitive, scripted gameplay that nearly all the combat in 14 suffers from. The predictability of Shatter is precisely why I don't play it.

It's mogtome season!

I notice that during mogtome, the player participation in online communities around pvp rises quite a lot. Which is encouraging that a lot of people are trying to win and trying to get better or trying to get into RW or FL. It's great!
However, I wouldn't be OP if I wouldn't complain about reward structure during mogtome :D
IMO the current 5 mogtomes per win and 3 mogtomes per loss, is... slightly misbalanced.

I think mogtome is a great example of what additional rewards many commenters on this thread have suggested to encourage playing to win behaviour.
However, playing to win sometimes would take longer games, which makes farming a loss way more efficient way to get more mogtomes quicker. The thinking is along the lines of: "ok if i lose 2 x 7 minutes games quickly, this gives me more mogtomes than 1 x 15min game which we might not even win. So let's just aim for a loss!"

I think balancing mogtomes 5 per win and 2 per loss would have been better. Or would it have been better if there was 0 tomestone rewards for loss, as you already get rewarded with exp/tomes/series?

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TofuLove

It's mogtome season!

I notice that during mogtome, the player participation in online communities around pvp rises quite a lot. Which is encouraging that a lot of people are trying to win and trying to get better or trying to get into RW or FL. It's great!
However, I wouldn't be OP if I wouldn't complain about reward structure during mogtome :D
IMO the current 5 mogtomes per win and 3 mogtomes per loss, is... slightly misbalanced.

I think mogtome is a great example of what additional rewards many commenters on this thread have suggested to encourage playing to win behaviour.
However, playing to win sometimes would take longer games, which makes farming a loss way more efficient way to get more mogtomes quicker. The thinking is along the lines of: "ok if i lose 2 x 7 minutes games quickly, this gives me more mogtomes than 1 x 15min game which we might not even win. So let's just aim for a loss!"

I think balancing mogtomes 5 per win and 2 per loss would have been better. Or would it have been better if there was 0 tomestone rewards for loss, as you already get rewarded with exp/tomes/series?

Thoughts?

---

I'd remove FL from the mogtome event altogether. Not only would that get a bunch of people exposed to RW, it would avoid the miserable matches in FL we get during the event.

Typical observation from yesterday: seven players with less than 70k (!) damage dealt, with two riding together round the edge of the map not engaging at all.

I like that the premise of additional rewards brings more people into PVP. And I know for a lot of people this was the gateway into becoming pvp regular: They started playing during mogtome and stuck around because they enjoyed it.

I don't like that farming 2nd or 3rd place is used as a tactic to farm rewards.
A friend told me that when mogtome was first run, any participation in frontlines was rewarded the same - 5 tomes. They said that during that time the matches were being thrown very heavily and there was 0 effort from players because they knew that they would get rewarded the same anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TofuLove

I like that the premise of additional rewards brings more people into PVP. And I know for a lot of people this was the gateway into becoming pvp regular: They started playing during mogtome and stuck around because they enjoyed it.

I don't like that farming 2nd or 3rd place is used as a tactic to farm rewards.
A friend told me that when mogtome was first run, any participation in frontlines was rewarded the same - 5 tomes. They said that during that time the matches were being thrown very heavily and there was 0 effort from players because they knew that they would get rewarded the same anyway.

---

Funny thing about the lengths some people go to min-max rewards is that they're frequently nonsensical.

For example, let's suppose you're playing Onsal and after 5 minutes your team is trailing by ~400 points. That can be overcome, but even when the third place team does make such a comeback, the match is going to be long.

Rather than attempting to throw (which, unless you're Q-synching with similarly deranged individuals is quite difficult, at least in a way that markedly shortens the match), the mogtome min-max is probably to quit, and during the 30-min penalty run a couple of GATEs at the saucer.

It's an infuriating FF14 paradox.

1. For people to engage in content, the content must offer rewards.
2. When rewards are offered, people who hate the content feel FOMO-compelled to engage with it.

And round and round we go.

The only positive I've noticed recently is more vote kicks are getting through.

If this change went through I would simply not play it.

Competitive Matchmaking should never be unrewarded.

The rewards should be equal for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in frontlines, and equal for win or lose in rival wings, because both frontlines and rival wings are plagued with match fixing all event long, like way worse than normal and the whole reason is people are so selfish and impatient and want the slightly faster rate of tomes from winning. Equal rewards = much less reason to fix matches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waaltar

The rewards should be equal for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in frontlines, and equal for win or lose in rival wings, because both frontlines and rival wings are plagued with match fixing all event long, like way worse than normal and the whole reason is people are so selfish and impatient and want the slightly faster rate of tomes from winning. Equal rewards = much less reason to fix matches.

---

What do you mean by "match fixing"? I have played this mode for few years now, and have never seen win trading or anything of the sort. I have seen spite pushing, griefing and non participation, but never actual win trading, even in qsyncs. Could you provide some examples?

Non participation to me is the ultimate problem, really. If you less rewards for throwing - you'd be encouraged to actually play. To me it's common sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TofuLove

What do you mean by "match fixing"? I have played this mode for few years now, and have never seen win trading or anything of the sort. I have seen spite pushing, griefing and non participation, but never actual win trading, even in qsyncs. Could you provide some examples?

Non participation to me is the ultimate problem, really. If you less rewards for throwing - you'd be encouraged to actually play. To me it's common sense.

---

You will occasionally see Discord collusion that impacts the outcome, but it's rare. And it probably doesn't even reach the level of win-trading, merely a side effect of padding and personal vendettas.

Lethargic play is the central problem. But as I've said before, carrots haven't worked in reducing it. We need a big stick.

I wrote it long time ago and I write it again.
Frontline second and third Place should get only 3-5 Poesie and nothing more.
Not even Exp. Maybe Players will putt then some efford into PvP and stop to beeing afk or with super less damage, for Millions of free Exp and tons of other Rewards.

Hi All!

I thought to ping this post with my current thoughts on BH changes and how these are affecting and will further affect the gameplay. Overall I think the changes are good and make the game more fun when everyone is participating. Also it's nice to see a lot of players returning - it really evens out the games when there are more good players across all teams. Games are more fast paced and dying isn't as punishing since it's easy to regain BH.

However, on a number of occasions I was queued into grand company where majority of players were clearly only there for exp/new seasonal rewards/tomes.
Due to BH change - it's super easy for grand company that's trying to win to get more BH quicker. Which effectively means in grand companies where people are not participating - throwing can happen even faster and more brutal. The contrast is very stark. After which it's quite difficult to catch up with the team that just doesn't want to win.

Again, I think BH change is a positive change, but I think rebalancing/additional incentives for winning and disincentives for losing are a must.

We are only in the first week of updates, and once good pvp players drop off and stop participating - I feel like this contrast between those not wanting to participate and wanting to win will only get starker.

I'm very miffed about those BH changes. I do agree with shifting the gains over toward assists and less toward kills, but the sheer gains are what I find very frustrating. It's so easy to gain that there is no sense of accomplishment anymore. They need to dial down the overall gains. 2 per assist was fine, it's 10 per kills that wasn't. Perhaps 3 per assist and 6 per kill would be better if they don't want to create a fairer system where the points are split between all assists.