M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

playerbase incompetent, make whole role into training wheels

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It unfortunately HAS to be this way, healers are literally that bad at the game.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Can ask what should be the "solution" to this, but it would just be "lets remove all forms of healing/utility" on non-healer roles most likely which is generally what i hear. I can understand why people who main healer would want that, but I also think you have to acknowledge that it would hurt tank/dps design quite a lot by limiting what they can do, in how a job can bring something unique to the table.

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It doesn't have to be outright removal to make actual healers more appealing. They could just make the party healing not completely lossless.

Imagine if Nascent Flash costs 50 beast gauge, maybe Shake it Off only has the shield and consumes 25 beast gauge for the heal and another 25 for the regen. Maybe Earth's Reply costs a GCD to use.

And there you have it, tanks and DPS still have agency and survivability but healers are much more appealing because they can sustain the party for cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ah yes people build a specific comp around having no healers and clear... that's so wild, I'm not going to pretend this is shocking because clears without healers have been a pretty common trend.

I think if anything the trinity system needs to be actually reworked because it's clearly not working for support jobs (both tanks and healers).

Can ask what should be the "solution" to this, but it would just be "lets remove all forms of healing/utility" on non-healer roles most likely which is generally what i hear. I can understand why people who main healer would want that, but I also think you have to acknowledge that it would hurt tank/dps design quite a lot by limiting what they can do, in how a job can bring something unique to the table.

I'm personally against removing all forms of "non-healer" healing, but i think theirs cases where it can be tuned down, or give healers more advantages, Tank healing in some cases can be tuned down I don't think shake it off needs a regen, I don't think bloodwhetting should be per enemy ect, but in general some non-healer healing cooldowns I think are fine.

But I do think the "trinity system"... the current job designs needs a entire rework anyway.

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DPS should simply not have group heals, period. They should get their self-healing skill and maybe a mitigation tool and that's that. If some of them have heals for flavor they should have a GCD cost to them at the very least, and not be so potent that stacking them replaces a healer.

Tanks I could see having limited heals but Warrior and Pld group heals are too much for the damage output we have.

Tanks should not be able to survive on their own for a half hour at a time. They should get overwhelmed without any assistance.

Lots of games did the trinity system without invalidating the healer role.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

That's my point...

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It's like talking to a wall at this point

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

It unfortunately HAS to be this way, healers are literally that bad at the game.

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When you cater to the absolute bottom tier of player, you GET the absolute bottom tier of player. If they actually had to put in effort in the first place, they could have either grown, or be filtered out of the role, like they should be. We should not be designing roles of responsibility for the players who don't want to put in any effort. That's asinine game design, and always has been.

I wish I could go back in time and clear ARR, HW, and SB content without healers just to spite you people. Literally a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

>YOU NEED TO PLAY SAVAGE THEY AMPED UP THE DAMAGE THE BOSSES DO, HEALING IS SO NEEDED NOW

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Alright then, go do Savage without a healer.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I wish I could go back in time and clear ARR, HW, and SB content without healers just to spite you people. Literally a non-issue.

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I wonder why we didn’t have extensive discussions about job healer clears of old content when it was current

Maybe it was because besides that one 8 tank clear of A12s who had a notoriously weak DPS check it didn’t happen

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This...is just a sad cop-out that says you know you can't actually refute the point being made.

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There is no effort to refute your point because it has been refuted long time ago.

You say its because they are top players (despite this kind of clears because a common ocurrence) when the problem is that is mathematically possible when the tier is still at its peak power.

No matter how many top players you bring, you wont clear the dps check without dps or survive the tankbusters without a tank this early in the tier. The design demands for the unique traits of those roles but the same can't be said about healers.

This kind of clears show a fundamental disconnect between the healer design and the fight demands. Glaring issues to anyone who is willing to see them

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I wish I could go back in time and clear ARR, HW, and SB content without healers just to spite you people. Literally a non-issue.

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To spite on what?
A coffin with already some dirt on it?

This post just show how a mess healing is in this game.
People can say whatever : *it"s just elite hardcore gamre that can do it*, * casual can't do it* etc... etc...
The simple fact that some free-healer party can do it is just plain wrong.

And when people say : healer player are bad.... yeah they never played actively healer then.
Because, seriously, all the dungeon/raid/trial that gone bad were mainly due to Tank fighting for the aggro or grouping boss + add together or don't swapping or just plainly tanking the boss in the middle and cleaving everyone..... DPS who prefere maximising their parse and standing in AOE, dismissing entire mechanics etc... etc...

And, we, healer, we are in the middle of this, trying yo keep everyone alive.... And when it doesn'y work we are the culprit.... "yeah it's the healers fault not us"

Stop BSing... The Healer role is in the pit because of SE, because of a part of the player that don't want to make an effort and never assume their shortcomings.

But, yeah.... Stay like this, stay on "it's the healer fault"... One day people will start wondering why almost no instance proc, why they must do everything with trust or getting caried unsync, why the skill level is so low that level 100 can't even do a basic mechanic (

Disclaimer : This post contains a lot of overexagered and over dramatic bait in purpose. But some are still within the realm of possibilities.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again

You can’t 0.1% your way out of the fact that nobody but tanks can survive tankbusters and you need DPS to clear on patch DPS checks

There is no 0.1’ing yourself out of that

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again

You can’t 0.1% your way out of the fact that nobody but tanks can survive tankbusters and you need DPS to clear on patch DPS checks

There is no 0.1’ing yourself out of that

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However, multiple groups have proven you only need 1 tank. I am awaiting the run where it is 1 tank 7 dps.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I wish I could go back in time and clear ARR, HW, and SB content without healers just to spite you people. Literally a non-issue.

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Yes, I would love to have seen you try to clear O12S on content with no healer.

A fight where the top players couldn't clear with 0 GCD heals with 2 healers in the party.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Yes, I would love to have seen you try to clear O12S on content with no healer.

A fight where the top players couldn't clear with 0 GCD heals with 2 healers in the party.

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Don't challenge them. You'll say some #)%*# like that, and they'll patch some nonsense in to make it possible.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Yes, I would love to have seen you try to clear O12S on content with no healer.

A fight where the top players couldn't clear with 0 GCD heals with 2 healers in the party.

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You can't clear all fights without healers. Couldn't back then, can't now.

Available Party Healing/Mitigates from the roles:
(I didn't watch the video..but i checked up the roles they had, and what they could bring)


PLD:
- Cover
- Divine Veil
- Clemency
- Intervention
- Passage of Arms

WAR:
- Shake It Off
(A lot of self-heals)

DNC:
- Shield Samba
- Curing Waltz
- Improvised (Improvised Finish)

SMN:
- Lux Solaris
- Rekindle
- Everlasting Flight


MNK:
-Earth's Reply

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You already have this with tank. For example in M3S..
So why can't you have some mech that will put the onus on the healer?

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The change would be global and not only for savage or ultimate. The game has to answer if it wants to go the WoW route or not. FFXIV avoids putting responsibilities and requirements on players and is anti-parsing and anti-judging of players' performance.

They could copy some healing checks from ultimate into savage and call it a day too, but it won't solve any problems, just put log checks to any invite in PF and the need to use the convoluted ATC logging for everything so you have logs to prove someone's healing capabilities etc.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

The change would be global and not only for savage or ultimate. The game has to answer if it wants to go the WoW route or not. FFXIV avoids putting responsibilities and requirements on players and is anti-parsing and anti-judging of players' performance.

They could copy some healing checks from ultimate into savage and call it a day too, but it won't solve any problems, just put log checks to any invite in PF and the need to use the convoluted ATC logging for everything so you have logs to prove someone's healing capabilities etc.

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Why has this not happened for tanks then

If what you say with healers actually happened right now people would be kicking tanks left right and centre from M3 because the tank doing the buster wrong kills half the party

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

It unfortunately HAS to be this way, healers are literally that bad at the game.

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Only because the game never freaking challenges them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wiping in content, let it happen so people can learn

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

-elite players

-not optimal comp

-PF too stupid to do this

-can you do it

Upvotes to the left thanks

(/s just for safety)

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I don't get it, the updoots are on the right...

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why has this not happened for tanks then

If what you say with healers actually happened right now people would be kicking tanks left right and centre from M3 because the tank doing the buster wrong kills half the party

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Both healers and tanks are void of bigger responsibilities. Tanks are hard to kill and can compensate for a weaker healer. Good healers can compensate for noob tank and so on. It works, but it's not something for competitive content or competitive WoW-style MMO.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Both healers and tanks are void of bigger responsibilities. Tanks are hard to kill and can compensate for a weaker healer. Good healers can compensate for noob tank and so on. It works, but it's not something for competitive content or competitive WoW-style MMO.

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They aren’t remotely compensating for each other when one of the two just does both roles by itself and the other is inferior in literally every conceivable category

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why has this not happened for tanks then

If what you say with healers actually happened right now people would be kicking tanks left right and centre from M3 because the tank doing the buster wrong kills half the party

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Most tank busters can kill a dps if the tanks dont do their job and half of them can wipe the group. Looking forward to seeing tanks reduced to 1 button spam and 25 mitigation buttons. /s

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They aren’t remotely compensating for each other when one of the two just does both roles by itself and the other is inferior in literally every conceivable category

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Ah, i disagree.... We can Esuna better than a Bard XD

People acting like this is proof that healer balance is bad. Guys, we already knew that.

I'll be a lot more concerned for the immediate state of game balance when this becomes the standard comp.
People can go on and on about how "easy" it would be to replicate this.
PF is constantly pushing new strats because it's "easy", but why are they not recruiting this comp?
Because taking healers is just easier for your average PF.

Changes need to happen, but as-is people are going to continue using the default comp. You're not seeing world racers run 4 tanks. You're not gonna see people tackling the next Ultimate with no healers during prog.
The case is also a lot different when not having the standard comp causes heavier RNG with mechanics that normally spawn on the missing roles.

I...I have the feeling this will backfire and somehow end up with the next tier of content having so much damage everywhere and unavoidable raidwide damage that will leave my SMN/Picto/BLM at 5% HP constantly if the healers are not spamming cures xD

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Originally Posted by KariArisu

People acting like this is proof that healer balance is bad. Guys, we already knew that.

I'll be a lot more concerned for the immediate state of game balance when this becomes the standard comp.
People can go on and on about how "easy" it would be to replicate this.
PF is constantly pushing new strats because it's "easy", but why are they not recruiting this comp?
Because taking healers is just easier for your average PF.

Changes need to happen, but as-is people are going to continue using the default comp. You're not seeing world racers run 4 tanks. You're not gonna see people tackling the next Ultimate with no healers during prog.
The case is also a lot different when not having the standard comp causes heavier RNG with mechanics that normally spawn on the missing roles.

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Trust me, no healer is in fear of not finding groups to clear with. The problem is that when you are a healer in a normal group your gameplay consists mostly of spamming your singular damage button.

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Originally Posted by royox

I...I have the feeling this will backfire and somehow end up with the next tier of content having so much damage everywhere and unavoidable raidwide damage that will leave my SMN/Picto/BLM at 5% HP constantly if the healers are not spamming cures xD

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That risks a potential for failures that could make people feel bad. They won't do that.
No, what they're going to do is make it so even premade groups can't go into anything without at least one healer unless it's a full Limited Job party.

So this thread asks for content to be tightened around healers being essential and I am just here thinking maybe be careful of what you wish for.

Be careful wishing for what? A fun and fulfilling gaming experience as a healer? I'll wish for that all day, every day.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

So this thread asks for content to be tightened around healers being essential and I am just here thinking maybe be careful of what you wish for.

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Yeah how dare a role ask to actually not just be a system enforced burden and actually wants to meaningfully contribute to the raid

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yeah how dare a role ask to actually not just be a system enforced burden and actually wants to meaningfully contribute to the raid

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My reasoning behind saying this is that sometimes we complain about something and the dev team looks at the feedbacks and decides to make it worse. Look at aggro, vipers, etc, so just beware of what you wish for.

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Originally Posted by KariArisu

People acting like this is proof that healer balance is bad. Guys, we already knew that.

I'll be a lot more concerned for the immediate state of game balance when this becomes the standard comp.
People can go on and on about how "easy" it would be to replicate this.
PF is constantly pushing new strats because it's "easy", but why are they not recruiting this comp?
Because taking healers is just easier for your average PF.

Changes need to happen, but as-is people are going to continue using the default comp. You're not seeing world racers run 4 tanks. You're not gonna see people tackling the next Ultimate with no healers during prog.
The case is also a lot different when not having the standard comp causes heavier RNG with mechanics that normally spawn on the missing roles.

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We had this happen before with Ramuh Titan egi, and we still drink the kool aid that PF somehow won't try and figure it out when it is significantly faster and easier to do

Surely they will simply sit there and drool this time instead of recreate the Heavensward PF experience that they did before.

Also OP is based for making this thread for popcorn munching

Someone cleared all 200 floors of Palace of the dead as a conjurer. A CONJURER.

Just because something is possible, does not mean it's normal.

I don't think anyone is claiming that doing savage and ultimate without healers is going to become the new normal.

What people are saying is that it's bad design for the current high-end content to be possible to clear with one role of the trinity removed from the party.

The former is easy to argue against while the latter is impossible to argue against, so it seems like people tend to lump all arguments as the former so they can argue against ghosts.

Man, remember the SE that enforced the two tank meta by adding mechanics that required two tanks, because they were tired of us single tanking everything? Where's that design philosophy for healers, when you don't even need one healer?

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Originally Posted by Isala

Man, remember the SE that enforced the two tank meta by adding mechanics that required two tanks, because they were tired of us single tanking everything? Where's that design philosophy for healers, when you don't even need one healer?

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They're there, given to the tanks. SE is purposely slowly removing the healer role otherwise none of this would've been happening starting Shadowbringers.

No healers but 2 paladins, which is close enough.

If this situation was reversed and tank was the irrelevant role, both the forums and the dev team would lose sleep from ranting and rushing to fix the problem.

The fact is there's just no energy behind the healer problem from the dev team for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They aren’t remotely compensating for each other when one of the two just does both roles by itself and the other is inferior in literally every conceivable category

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If you get both a good healer and a good tank then the healer role is diminished, but that will usually happen in good pre-made groups and randomly in DF. On average in DF this won't be the case and as the game has a wide range of accepted player behavior/performance it has to be that way. Inception.

Changing this would be rather severe across all of the content. Even increasing savage, ex, and ultimate healing requirements would trickle down to other content having overturned healers that in the end-game content would have to be pure heal bots which still could be perceived as "not fun" / #healerstrike.