Tanks holding fights hostage in Roulettes

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Simple solution. If only one player is alive bosses enrages after 10 seconds. 400% increase in dmg output good bye tank.

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This the only solution. There's no guarantee a tank would even use raise if they had it.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Simple solution. If only one player is alive bosses enrages after 10 seconds. 400% increase in dmg output good bye tank.

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Good solution but maybe make it at least a minute, 10 seconds is a bit fast. Otherwise, I'm totally down with this!

I love how everyone is talking about tanks like we're some organized crime syndicate that holds meetings in our clubhouse over poker on how to F over the community with a new evil plot. Like "Holding them hostage" in a fight.

*Punches in Tank crime syndicate card* #tankcrimes

I think I WILL join my tank brothers and sisters to prolong the next fight when I'm the only one alive. muahahahah...haa...haaaaaa.

Duo'd Zeromus as DRK with a GNB partner a few months ago.

It was the... 7th pull or something? I explained the mechanics several times, and even announced his actions in chat. We used signs and everything. The MCH picked up, but they won't live without healers. At this point us tanks silently agreed we were going to just get it over with and did the entire fight from 40-50% ourselves despite some party members griping about it... But at that point, what am I to do? Do I leave and piss people off because it was late and getting another tank for Zeromus would've been way more annoying? Or do I eventually have this party run the timer out, forcing a group of people who might not even requeue to requeue and robbing people of their msq progression that day? What about the few in party chat that *did* just want to have it taken care of?

Imo if we're not allowed to do this, then they should kill the ability for us to do this. Does it suck? Yeah. But I'm still from the era where praetorium cutscenes wouldn't play normally because people were going too fast. Sometimes you just need to suck up the fact you're not playing with bots.

We *should* be complaining about how this is possible. We should ***not*** be blaming each other. Blame the game.

Just give tanks raise and remove it from casters
it's the obvious solution no one wants to accept

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Originally Posted by Ketojan

There is unavoidable dmg, if your healer gets a stack marker but your little baby team don’t stand with you then the healer will die,

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Jepp, and that is the problem. If a party is already completely overhelmed how to handle the stack marker and lets the healer die, how high is the propability, that it will get better after the next wipe? And how many additional wipes are you ready to accept if you have such skilled players in your party? 10 wipes? 30? 50? Or is it better to kill the boss alone?

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

I love how everyone is talking about tanks like we're some organized crime syndicate that holds meetings in our clubhouse over poker on how to F over the community with a new evil plot. Like "Holding them hostage" in a fight.

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Yes. If the tanks would really want to troll the players, they would bring the boss down to 1% and then die. This is high quality trolling. :eek:




Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Jepp, and that is the problem. If a party is already completely overhelmed how to handle the stack marker and lets the healer die, how high is the propability, that it will get better after the next wipe? And how many additional wipes are you ready to accept if you have such skilled players in your party? 10 wipes? 30? 50? Or is it better to kill the boss alone?

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Well the same way you can assume it will take 10>30>50 wipes, I will assume it will take only 1 or 2? At worst I have personally experienced 5 on Zeromus normal just a month ago which DID end up being 2 tanks trying to keep the single healer alive at 15% left, but it was very cool with the whole team cheering for the clear. People naturally see one thing, die to it and then think "oh wtf happened I died to that, silly me" and remember next time the mechanic comes up. If they don't then extra help is recommended.

If he refused to wipe, I wouldn't hang around to watch that.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

I love how everyone is talking about tanks like we're some organized crime syndicate that holds meetings in our clubhouse over poker on how to F over the community with a new evil plot. Like "Holding them hostage" in a fight.

*Punches in Tank crime syndicate card* #tankcrimes

I think I WILL join my tank brothers and sisters to prolong the next fight when I'm the only one alive. muahahahah...haa...haaaaaa.

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Of course, everyone heard of the 'Ntankheta.

This has been a thing since Paladins acquired Clemency. Tanks need a balancing pass to bring them back in line with their actual role in the group, tanking. Not a slightly weaker dps that has better sustain and durability than most dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Have you tried not dying?

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Do not die and you will never have this problem.



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Karious

The people who can't clear the fight seem to actually have the skill issue.

Cheers

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How are we in August and there are still brainlets who don't comprehend the idea of DPS dying to raidwides cos healers are dead.

90% of the time it isn't a skill issue. You die to a noob terrorizing you during spreads and get doubled. Or people running away from your stack marker. Or healers just flat out incapable of healing you because they were having a panic attack IRL after 1 single person died and went down to 2 APM.

It used to be healers have the biggest ego for playing the most braindead role, but now it looks like tanks are having an ego moment in Dawntrail for playing the second most braindead role.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

How are we in August and there are still brainlets who don't comprehend the idea of DPS dying to raidwides cos healers are dead.

90% of the time it isn't a skill issue. You die to a noob terrorizing you during spreads and get doubled. Or people running away from your stack marker. Or healers just flat out incapable of healing you because they were having a panic attack IRL after 1 single person died and went down to 2 APM.

It used to be healers have the biggest ego for playing the most braindead role, but now it looks like tanks are having an ego moment in Dawntrail for playing the second most braindead role.

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Because most of the people making such remarks aren't interested in actual discussion, they just want to make their pithy little statements and feel superior to the plebs who dared die to a raidwide

Did they kill it? I don't mind watching the mechanics (I mean you are dead for a reason)...especially if they manage to kill it.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Did they kill it? I don't mind watching the mechanics (I mean you are dead for a reason)...especially if they manage to kill it.

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Don't know, but the tank was certainly.... killing it.

I'll see myself out.

Don't die, Git gud

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Originally Posted by gllt

Not holding up gameplay for an inordinate amount of time, it's against the rules. You are preventing other people from playing.

And no, people learning the content isn't the same as holding you back from playing. DPSes wiping multiple times while trying to learn are correctly trying to engage with the content. They're not holding up gameplay on purpose even if it means you clear the dungeon a bit later. If they ARE by griefing, not doing their job, standing in damage, etc then you might have an angle but otherwise you don't. If it takes longer to clear because you have to let other people learn the content instead of soloing it, it's your job to deal with that reality.

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It is not against the rules ro actively try and kill the boss. The ToS does not state a player must give up because people died to the boss.

A player ia not obligated to kill themselves because their party members died. Never said the other players were holding the party hostage for not knowing the fight. What I am saying is the tanks in question are under no obligation to stop trying so they can die just to give others a chance that ia not holding the group hostage either.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

The obligation of being a normal social human being with common sense? But I guess we are in 2024 ...

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Common sense is not shared. For some it may he common sense to try your best and nor give up. Standing their waiting to die is giving up. Idk

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Originally Posted by Lorika

It depend of the situation.
If it's after multiple wipe, only 10 minutes left on the timer and the boss only have around 5% left, well okay, i even encourage and root for the tanks
Otherwise i think that the tanks should just reset.

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Don't get me wrong I do agree but not everyone has the same standard. I also don't think it is against the rules to try and finish the fight. I doubt anywhere in the ToS states that trying to finish the fight is holding the group hostage like some people in this thread have stated.

Imagine needing 10 pages to determine tanks have become entitled A-holes.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Imagine needing 10 pages to determine tanks have become entitled A-holes.

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Imagine having 800 pages to explain Healers are fed up with the balance of the game, only to be surprised that tanks are getting away with new creative nonsense due to poor balancing. Might as well buckle up, gonna get alot worse before it gets better.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Imagine needing 10 pages to determine tanks have become entitled A-holes.

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But no need, just play healer and you'll automatically encounter a bunch.
A good exemple : 2 weeks ago i did a Doma Castle with a WAR.
From start to end he didn't used a single mit and a single Shake-it off.... Only Equilibrium and raw Intuition.
A bit suprised and curious i asked why.... The answer he gave me was atonishing : Since all the healer are only good for complaining on the forum (refering to the Healer Strike post), he wanted to give me a bit of "fun".

It was pure troll and It left me speechless.... but the worst part it that i didn't have to heal him that much....

So yeah, they are more and more tanks (and particulary WAR) that think they are immortal.... And it leads sometime to wipe, due to the carelessness that this mindset give, and everything fall back on the healer when this happen.

Just play healer and do the mechanics and you will be fine. Can't hold you hostage if you are still alive.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Just play healer and do the mechanics and you will be fine. Can't hold you hostage if you are still alive.

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You missed their point. Even in normal, solo tanking a stack mechanic as a healer because all others failed and died before usually results in death anyway, and it can happen. Hence only tanks remain.

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Originally Posted by x037x

Don't die, Git gud

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Why some people keep posting this stupidity? It’s not a “git gud” issue. “Git gud” is a matter individual to players. Here it is a game design and behaviour problem. More specifically, there is a problem with the excessive survivability (collecting vuln stacks? No problem!) and sustainability of tanks. Unfortunately some people are selfish jerks and the situation is exacerbated by the fact that they know there is no enrage timer. They survive the situations mentioned in this thread because of their role, not because they’re better. They’d be dead too if not on a tank. The few times I carried a group while tanking when the boss was at >10% was after several wipes and asking what other players wanted me to do before pulling. It’s group content, not a trust. Trying to explain the fight always comes first too.


People can die through no fault of their own. For example, if the healers go down early, you can expect dps to soon follow due to unavoidable damage, you can get killed by another player, including a tank: failure to stack (a classic in Valigarmanda with beginners that can kill experienced healers too), cleaving the group, etc. There are many situations where one can get killed (the best was probably this healer killing 3 alliances save the tanks in one shot in Thaleia by pulling a tank with a giant aoe tankbuster right in the middle of the group). Also, this is a new expansion and every time I play I run into people unlocking duties. Finally, mistakes happen and everyone makes them.

Tanks alone should NOT be able to clear current 8m group content as is currently the case.

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Originally Posted by Teno

You missed their point. Even in normal, solo tanking a stack mechanic as a healer because all others failed and died before usually results in death anyway, and it can happen. Hence only tanks remain.

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Then make the normal content harder.

This screams "you don't pay my sub" behavior.

No tanks don't have to kill themself to reset a fight. No healers don't have to raise you. No you don't have to wait for the newbie to watch their video. No you don't have to learn your rotation, just press whatever button you want. No you don't have to press your mitigations. No you don't have to do big pulls. No healers don't have to dps. No there is no such thing as early pulling...

It all boils down to being a teamplayer - or not.

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Originally Posted by Tint

This screams "you don't pay my sub" behavior.

[...]

It all boils down to being a teamplayer - or not.

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Nailed it, methinks.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

How are we in August and there are still brainlets who don't comprehend the idea of DPS dying to raidwides cos healers are dead.

90% of the time it isn't a skill issue. You die to a noob terrorizing you during spreads and get doubled. Or people running away from your stack marker. Or healers just flat out incapable of healing you because they were having a panic attack IRL after 1 single person died and went down to 2 APM.

It used to be healers have the biggest ego for playing the most braindead role, but now it looks like tanks are having an ego moment in Dawntrail for playing the second most braindead role.

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Maybe the issue is that the single point of failure is entirely dependent on if the healer dies or not, and instead of nerfing an already unpopular role instead they should look into a format where that isn't the case. A good Red Mage is going to solve this scenario 90% of the time.
Now imagine if revivng people was something every job could do in normal content, either through some action like Criterion, or just by consumables like Phoenix Downs, which already exist jsut have a stupid "no combat" restriction. This wouldn't even have to be applied to Extreme+ content.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Just play healer and do the mechanics and you will be fine. Can't hold you hostage if you are still alive.

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Play Healer.

Die once.

Punishment? You get to lose 10-15 minutes of your life watching the Tank slowly wittle the boss down.

Play Tank.
Watch the healer die once.
Punishment? Be expected to kill yourself so you can maybe just watch them die again.

nah

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Play Tank.

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Nah, you proc solo unsync if you want to feel almighty.
TEAMPLAY it's what is al about... If you can't understand that, then your don't belong in a MMORPF

How about, if everyone but the tank(s) are dead for more than 1 minute, the tanks get a huge damage buff so the fight doesn't take so long. It'll satisfy the tank's main character syndrome and spare people from watching for too long. Easy clap.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Nah, you proc solo unsync if you want to feel almighty.
TEAMPLAY it's what is al about... If you can't understand that, then your don't belong in a MMORPF

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Is it? I just want the DF rewards for tomestones.

I'll play as a team in content that requires it.

I'm so glad to see such a lively discussion around this whole situation.

Even happier to see that the overall consensus is that it's a problem the dev team needs to fix and rethink.

Let's keep rattling the cage, and hopefully we get the community teams attention. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

I'm so glad to see such a lively discussion around this whole situation.

Even happier to see that the overall consensus is that it's a problem the dev team needs to fix and rethink.

Let's keep rattling the cage, and hopefully we get the community teams attention. ^_^

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That's the good energy right there.

Clearly tanks are not survivable enough and it's a bad thing to be dependent on a healer. Tanks need significant buffs.

All other classes will be changed to camera operators that watch tank players play the game instead.
Healers still have to constantly press 1 button though or their game will turn off.

This should honestly be a thread constantly kept on the front page at all times. I don't play on JP but I imagine they have better manners when it comes to casual content, so it is likely not an issue over there. The devs may not know this exists, after all how many of them do normal content in NA/EU duty finder? I would honestly be surprised if that number wasn't 0.

Please do try to be civil. Saying 'don't die' is dismissive of someone's issue, and saying 'you're selfish' is reinforcing of people playing lone-op style, which increases the problem. If you believe in teamwork and collaboration to fix this, demonstrate that with empathy. If you believe this issue can be overcome with skill, consider showing the skill of not belittling others grievances. This is, after-all, to place to air grievances, non?

As to lone players in an MMO, that is a matter best directed to CBU3, whom has openly stated they want to draw both loner players and group players. Critiquing people for being 'lone wolves' is a bit counter-intuitive, given FFXIV itself is pushing to encourage and gather those types of players as well.

It's not a desirable behavior we're seeing, but with enough conversation and attention drawn to it perhaps we can pressure for the balancing changes that would stop this kind of behavior from being enabled.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

If you feel the fight is doomed, then leave.

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And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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This is also an existing recurring occurence (but generally it's after 2 or 3 wipe.... Or right away if it's Ramuh EX)

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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Already exists, absolute non-issue, there's very very few people coming to the forums in tears because any given role decided to abandon duty.

Hell, people barely even care as is if a player leaves immediately upon entering a duty when they don't get what they like in a roulette.

Those tears won't exist.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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Getting sick of reading this too.

If the tank is leaving after a single goddamn wipe chances are the party is better off without them anyway.