Warrior Rework to Balance the job

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Thrash mobs already die very fast when people are at the max item level for the content.

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Yes, but the problem is that trash just feels like busywork until you get to the boss. It feels like it's impeding your way to mechanically interesting stuff. WAR is the only job in the game right now that gives you a dopamine hit when dealing with trash, which is not necessarily WAR'S fault, but speaks to a bigger problem of the content in my opinion.

Criterion has some pretty interesting trash mechanics, they could be put into certain normal dungeons but be less punishing. Would also help for training people for criterion, soft version of something that hits way harder when doing the hard dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Criterion has some pretty interesting trash mechanics, they could be put into certain normal dungeons but be less punishing. Would also help for training people for criterion, soft version of something that hits way harder when doing the hard dungeon.

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When we introduce Criterion mobs into the conversation, we kind of solve the WAR problem then, don't we? Cause now we're not talking about healing off 6-15 enemies, we're talking about 3-5, which people in this thread seem to have established WAR seems fine at.

Not to dismiss your statement at all, I would love an easy version of Criterion trash in normal dungeons. Just pointing out that's something to consider, too.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

Yes, but the problem is that trash just feels like busywork until you get to the boss. It feels like it's impeding your way to mechanically interesting stuff. WAR is the only job in the game right now that gives you a dopamine hit when dealing with trash, which is not necessarily WAR'S fault, but speaks to a bigger problem of the content in my opinion.

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The fix to boring thrash mobs isn't to give WAR a godmode. And I strongly disagree with the demanding wider changes before accepting the removal of a godmode from an MMO.

The challenge to thrash mobs in FF for tanks is to optimize AD's and stuns, healers to bridge the difference between incoming damage and tank sustain. And for dps to kill the mobs fast enough so tanks and healers don't run out of their ogcd defenses and heals. WAR completely removes that dynamic.

And it's not only thrash mobs where WAR is far to strong. At bossfights WAR contributes far more then any other tank.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

When we introduce Criterion mobs into the conversation, we kind of solve the WAR problem then, don't we? Cause now we're not talking about healing off 6-15 enemies, we're talking about 3-5, which people in this thread seem to have established WAR seems fine at.

Not to dismiss your statement at all, I would love an easy version of Criterion trash in normal dungeons. Just pointing out that's something to consider, too.

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No we don't. It's impossible to solve the WAR issues while WAR has equal sustain against groups of enemies as DRK+WHM. Or when WAR has equal ogcd healing output as WHM in solo or small group content.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

The fix to boring thrash mobs isn't to give WAR a godmode. And I strongly disagree with the demanding wider changes before accepting the removal of a godmode from an MMO.

The challenge to thrash mobs in FF for tanks is to optimize AD's and stuns, healers to bridge the difference between incoming damage and tank sustain. And for dps to kill the mobs fast enough so tanks and healers don't run out of their ogcd defenses and heals. WAR completely removes that dynamic.

And it's not only thrash mobs where WAR is far to strong. At bossfights WAR contributes far more then any other tank.



No we don't. It's impossible to solve the WAR issues while WAR has equal sustain against groups of enemies as DRK+WHM. Or when WAR has equal ogcd healing output as WHM in solo or small group content.

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If you think WAR has as much healing as a WHM vs bosses, we won't agree on anything.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

WAR is the only job in the game right now that gives you a dopamine hit when dealing with trash, which is not necessarily WAR'S fault, but speaks to a bigger problem of the content in my opinion.

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The mental gymnastics lol

https://i.imgflip.com/8yk6f2.jpg

I think taking inspiration from criterion mobs is a reasonable idea, maybe throw in the aforementioned esuna/manoeuvre factors, combine with some unavoidable raidwide damage from them would make for some interesting gameplay independent of tank/healer balance. I'm always in favour of things not being a straight dps race.

I do think there would be a requirement to monitor and adjust (if and as necessary) the tank/healer balance if such change was implemented.

Aiqa - I do understand and agree with your concerns about WAR but now we've finally got the guy on side for balance changes, lets collaborate on our common ground, if we can get some consensus on content design maybe we can talk about tuning tank/healer balance to better fit that design. You do raise a good point about the bosses, the speed and mechanic design in better in DT than in EW but I would like to see more party mechanics that a tank can't just brute force, anyone got thoughts on that?

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

If you think WAR has as much healing as a WHM vs bosses, we won't agree on anything.

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You can just count the healing potencies, it's not that difficult. Including the +30% healing from healer trait, WAR and WHM have similar ogcd healing potential in solo and small group content, even when not including target scaling from bloodwhetting. That isn't an opinion.

So I was always of the opinion that there should be balance where the content demands it. I've made my opinion known in a few other places. That said, I also know for a fact that the dev team will always have two big questions: How realistic is this to do, and will this make as many people happy as possible? And my question to add on to that is: why does it matter?

A very common sentiment when tanks and healers didn't have all these tools was that there was a big imbalance on responsibility. When you feel like you have no agency over yourself, it becomes more frustrating to deal with other people who may or may not play well, so the XIV team delivered by giving all jobs the ability to heal themselves or otherwise mitigate damage, even though that's technically the job of the support players (technically, tanks have healing and healers have mitigation too). It makes all sorts of jobs less stressful to play, especially in scenarios like fates and solo duties.

Back to the matter - what's the real root of the problem? Healers feel like their role is being infringed upon, because tanks, WAR being the biggest offense of them, have tools that give them agency. Nerfing them is a very easy thing to do, but unfortunately, it violates infringing on players' enjoyment about what feels good about that job to them. And I know the dev team's inaction up onto this point is precisely because they hear players that LOVE WAR and don't want it to change to a job that sucks again. And to be honest, there is little else engaging about fighting trash in dungeons, we've been doing the same exact thing since stormblood. Keep in mind, contrary to belief, I don't believe you should be invincible to feel good playing a game.

So, we come back to the problem - healers feel useless. How do we make them useful? Give a healer something only they can do. WAR isn't invincible if a mob pack or boss puts a debuff on them that reduces the healing received, or they stack on poison that gets progressively worse over time. Healers feel needed, and tanks can keep their powerful tools. What's more, it's easier to retroactively place throughout the game (have *this* mob inflict *that* debuff in a dungeon) and even for Trust AI to deal with, and then we can expand on things, like bonus effects for cleansing, or different types of things to be cleansed. And it could be further expanded on in new expansions. Healers feel engaged and necessary, tanks feel like tanks, you can make previously boring enemies like trash more interesting, and you don't have to change people's kits to take away from them without giving anything back.

It's just one example they can come up with, but my point is that they need to balance a solution that makes as many people as possible happy while being realistic. I do believe that nerfs are called for when necessary. But there's problems in the content that goes beyond balance imo, especially regarding enemies who are frankly unmemorable busywork.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

When we introduce Criterion mobs into the conversation, we kind of solve the WAR problem then, don't we? Cause now we're not talking about healing off 6-15 enemies, we're talking about 3-5, which people in this thread seem to have established WAR seems fine at.

Not to dismiss your statement at all, I would love an easy version of Criterion trash in normal dungeons. Just pointing out that's something to consider, too.

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Cap lifesteal aoe anyway. But yeah I think trash doesn't need to always be a large group, having small elite enemies sometimes could be fun, easier to kite too so having to move them around for environmental hazards can actually be reasonable in roulettes.

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

Honestly my only problem with warrior personally is bloodwhetting's CD, really feels like it should be the 2 cd minute ability maybe 90 second because of how strong it is. I'm not completely opposed to it existing in its current form, only against it existing with such a short CD.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

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The only thing tanks got this expansion is an upgrade to the job specific 30% mit into a 40% + some extra healing or shield varying between 500 to 1000 potency per minute (ironically WAR is on the high end here due to Damnation being a hot).

Meanwhile Bloodwhetting on 5 targets is 19200 potency healing per minute and 960 shield potency per minute, for a combined 20000 potency. DRK is still heavily healer dependant and getting extra HPS equal to 3% of HPS of Bloodwhetting does not change that. GNB has more HPS potential than DRK and I have not seen anyone complaining about it, nor have I seen GNB run synced experts with 3 dps. If there is any tank that should be able to run dungeons without a healer it should be PLD, and only if they are hard casting Clemency a lot.

No, it's not "all tanks", yes WAR is unique in how overtuned it is.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

The mental gymnastics lol

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"Nice argument, unfortunately, I've made a meme depicting you as a Simpson character"

Let's make a quick exercise. If Warrior, the job, is broken, then it would be "broken" in all content, correct? But that's not the case.
When working with acid, the liquid, if your plastic bottle melts and cannot contain it, do you lessen the potency of your solution? Not necesseraly, you can adapt the container.

On top of that we're talking about dungeons of all things.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

You can just count the healing potencies, it's not that difficult. Including the +30% healing from healer trait, WAR and WHM have similar ogcd healing potential in solo and small group content, even when not including target scaling from bloodwhetting. That isn't an opinion.

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Quite a bad faith example, using WHM which mechanics revolves around Lilies and GCD rather than oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

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While it is expected that people get better tools as levels go up and power increases, is it not reasonable to expect the threats posed to increase an a manner commensurate with that player power increase? There is this strange phenomenon in this game where the first dungeon has more damage dealt to players than what came before and after, the damage drops off from there with rare exceptions and then in DT for the first time of noticing (having come to the game in EW) the post-story dungeons appear to do more damage than the story ones. It seems to me that the content designers are not increasing enemy power in line with player power very well, if at all.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If Warrior, the job, is broken, then it would be "broken" in all content, correct?

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Warrior is broken in dungeons, capping healing on Bloodwhetting effectively only affects Warrior in dungeons. Are you seriously trying to argue that because WAR isn't broken in all content it should not be fixed in the content in which it is broken?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Quite a bad faith example, using WHM which mechanics revolves around Lilies and GCD rather than oGCDs.

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Even with counting lillies the healing potential is similar. Here is a back-of-the-envelope calculation I did in the healerstrike thread.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

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I wish they'd focus on giving tanks more niche support skills at higher levels, rather than just engage in a damage-mit arms race. PLD's wings and cover don't get a huge focus as part of their kit, but feel amazing when they save someone, for example. Maybe give WAR an esuna or expedience, DRK a interrupt that charges Dark Arts if it actually disrupts a cast or the ability to zombie a dead player, or GNB a kardia or a player-targeting gap closer, for example. Those are probably bad examples, but stuff like that. I don't care if I only use it 1-in-10 fights or only when shit hits the fan, but give me the power fantasy of having just the right tool to save this run.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Warrior is broken in dungeons, capping healing on Bloodwhetting effectively only affects Warrior in dungeons. Are you seriously trying to argue that because WAR isn't broken in all content it should not be fixed in the content in which it is broken?

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I think way too much people are exaggerating with the use of "broken". Strong? Sure. Broken? No.
Broken would mean it breaks the game, if PLD could shield bash anything and nothing had resistance, it would be broken. If BRD could permanently root any monster and kill it safely from afar, that would be broken (something that actually happened in other MMOs).

If we nerf Warrior because of casual content people will move on to the next thing and nerf Paladin.
Plus, just let warriors having their funs, no one is actually harmed, just the ego of some healers.

It's just chill story more that would end up being easily cleared. Who cares if Warrior heals a million HP, for once we get something that steps out of the lines and people immediatly wants to nerf it.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I think way too much people are exaggerating with the use of "broken". Strong? Sure. Broken? No.
Broken would mean it breaks the game,

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Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it. All expert dungeons are for is grinding weekly tomestones, and if doing it without a healer is faster (and it is) then people will be doing that (and they have through the whole Endwalker). PLD at least has to trade DPS to cast Clemency so even if it can do the same content with 3 dps, it's not automatically The Best Way To Do Expert Dungeons TM.

Whether you want to call that broken or not is really irrelevant. Warrior is overtuned in dungeons, period. You either buff all tanks to the same level and then tune trash in every single dungeon from level 56 onward accordingly, which is a lot of work, or you just adjust one problematic ability on one job and the whole problem goes away.

I think something that also goes too often unmentioned is how detrimental it is to the actual fun of tanking dungeons as Warrior for a healing skill to be so powerful as to act 7 seconds of Benediction spam in AoE, not to mention so thoughtlessly.

Warrior felt better to play as (not just to play with) in Shadowlands when Nascent Flash's self-healing (now on Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting as well) was more constrained and actually varied with your actions.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it. All expert dungeons are for is grinding weekly tomestones, and if doing it without a healer is faster (and it is) then people will be doing that (and they have through the whole Endwalker). PLD at least has to trade DPS to cast Clemency so even if it can do the same content with 3 dps, it's not automatically The Best Way To Do Expert Dungeons TM.

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First, who cares about optimising dungeons.
Second, that's not a fact that's a lie. Any tank can do this kind of run. In Early Endwalker DRK was the pick of choice.

You can find the team compositions that speedrun each dungeons and will see that PLD and GNB are also in these type of composition.
PLD doesn't even need to press Clemency that much, it's just an option in case of emergency

Then finally, those runs saves at most 2 minutes and I'm really generous.
You need to run it 5 times, including Expert roulette, to cap. That's 10 poor minutes saved, your life won't change.

SE is slowly going in a direction to make the game harder. WAR is fine where it is right now especially since they intend to change the difficulty. You can't appease all people, some people complain it's too hard or too easy. Granted you're limiting yourself to dungeon only content so ofc it will end up being easy, most of it is for story anyways. Just because you limit yourself doesn't mean the rest of us need to be limited in higher end content.
The diversity of classes also is what makes the game interesting. WAR needs self sustain and healing so it can be the class it's meant to be and help with higher end content. It's playing as intended. You want a nerf on ONE class for dungeons of which people won't even really play. I really doubt people are spamming dungeons every day and that's all they do. Pretty sure dungeons are a means to an end and that's why SE is working on making criterion. Honestly, would love to see the proof of stats from svg to dungeon ratio because I think it's being under-recognized here.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

First, who cares about optimising dungeons.

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Almost everybody I run into in the game. If I don't do W2W pulls the dps gets bored, the healer gets bored, and it's only a matter of time before someone asks "hey can we pull more?"

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

In Early Endwalker DRK was the pick of choice.

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So now we're just making shit up? Early Endwalker DRK didn't even have self-healing on Living Dead.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Almost everybody I run into in the game. If I don't do W2W pulls the dps gets bored, the healer gets bored, and it's only a matter of time before someone asks "hey can we pull more?"

So now we're just making shit up? Early Endwalker DRK didn't even have self-healing on Living Dead.

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Well that was what we did with my group, it was the pick of choice due to its burst. For 6.2 I went GNB.
Dungeons in Endwalker used to hit even less.

In any cases, that's a laughable gain and PLD remains a pick at least equal to WAR in 3 DPS comp.
Proving furthermore that Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, with data to back it up.

Nerf Warrior in dungeons, people would just switch to PLD and the core problem remains.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Well that was what we did with my group, it was the pick of choice due to its burst. For 6.2 I went GNB.
Dungeons in Endwalker used to hit even less.

In any cases, that's a laughable gain and PLD remains a pick at least equal to WAR in 3 DPS comp.
Proving furthermore that Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, with data to back it up.

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Nobody went on a healer strike over DRK, quite the opposite, people complained about healing DRK being annoying: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...d_to_heal_drk/

I also find it funny that the answer to your "who cares about optimising dungeons" is also: you, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Nobody went on a healer strike over DRK, quite the opposite, people complained about healing DRK being annoying: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...d_to_heal_drk/

I also find it funny that the answer to your "who cares about optimising dungeons" is also: you, apparently.

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Yeah? And we were a minority and figured it barely saved any time. What's your point, just trying to score something?
We just wanted to do cap before savage release, it's not like we did it on a weekly basis.

Healers went on a strike because every healer is spamming 1 and refreshing a dot. Healing isn't engaging, with or without warrior.
It could be a PLD, healer strike would've still happened.

But let's go back to the main topic, Warrior and its dungeon healing.
You know, the point I've seen no answer to it? That Paladin would simply replace Warrior and that the actual problem would remain unsolved?

I don't get why you are against capping aoe bloodwhetting, Kardia isn't damage per mob = heal for a reason. No reason why capping it to 2-3 mobs for lifesteal isnt a fine enough fix. With the rampart buff and thrill of battle it would still be incredibly powerful in dungeons anyway.
Also PLD should be nerfed too, 100 cure potency per sword combo would be great for a 60 cd self heal. damage sacrifice for clemency is ok for that ability rn.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Yeah? And we were a minority and figured it barely saved any time. What's your point, just trying to score something?
We just wanted to do cap before savage release, it's not like we did it on a weekly basis.

Healers went on a strike because every healer is spamming 1 and refreshing a dot. Healing isn't engaging, with or without warrior.
It could be a PLD, healer strike would've still happened.

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I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias. Nothing particularly wrong with it, I have my own, though in my case I've leveled warrior to do casual content without healers in EW and got so bored with it I can't even bother leveling Warrior to 100.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

But let's go back to the main topic, Warrior and its dungeon healing.
You know, the point I've seen no answer to it? That Paladin would simply replace Warrior and that the actual problem would remain unsolved?

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If you are right, which you may very well be, then sure, there still will be a problem, but it will also be progress over the state of the game today. If both PLD and WAR are overtuned to varying degrees, the existence of PLD is not an argument against nerfing WAR. What that argument is is Whataboutism, a logical fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias. Nothing particularly wrong with it, I have my own, though in my case I've leveled warrior to do casual content without healers in EW and got so bored with it I can't even bother leveling Warrior to 100.

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The reason I want not to nerf Bloodwhetting is for multiple reasons:
-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.
-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.
-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

If you are right, which you may very well be, then sure, there still will be a problem, but it will also be progress over the state of the game today. If both PLD and WAR are overtuned to varying degrees, the existence of PLD is not an argument against nerfing WAR. What that argument is is Whataboutism, a logical fallacy.

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Okay mister fallacy, you're the one who brought, I quote:
"Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it."

To then I brought my counter-argument: PLD and GNB are also able to so similar things while being even more optimal for PLD.
That's not whataboutism or a fallacy since it's directly adressing Warrior capacity to do dungeons without a healer. My example, PLD and GNB, shares the same capacity.

It would've been whataboutism if I directly avoided the issue. For example, if I said "Why are you complaining about Warrior when Pictomancer can delete packs in dungeons?", because it shifts to another problem.

Again, you're just trying to score something.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.
-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.
-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

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- Does not make bloodwhetting not overpowered.
- Does not make bloodwhetting not overpowered.
- That balance doesn't matter in dungeons is just your opinion, not fact. A job being overpowered being fun is also subjective, I don't find it fun.

In a nutshell: bloodwhetting is overpowered, you know it is overpowered, you just don't care.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

In a nutshell: bloodwhetting is overpowered, you know it is overpowered, you just don't care.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias.

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Pick one.
I can't have a bias/appear to have some interest and not be caring.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Pick one.
I can't have a bias/appear to have some interest and not be caring.

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You like bloodwhetting at current power level because to you it is fun (bias), and you also self-admittedly don't care about balance in dungeons ergo don't care that it is overpowered. Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Terhix

You like bloodwhetting at current power level because to you it is fun (bias), and you also self-admittedly don't care about balance in dungeons ergo don't care that it is overpowered. Am I wrong?

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Incorrect.

I don't "like" or "hate" bloowhetting, I've already told you my point was to make players understand that nerfing Bloodwhetting won't solve the root problem.
I'm not even a Warrior main and you can easily check this information, I like the DT iteration but not for Bloodwhetting, otherwise I would have liked EW Warrior.

I do care about dungeon balance, have you missed all my posts about wanting to increase the damage received by the whole party? How I want dungeons to be actual tutorials?
I'm simply against the nerf mentality accusing Bloodwhetting of all the Healer's suffering.

Do you still want to make this about me? Why don't we go back to the actual topic?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Incorrect.

I don't "like" or "hate" bloowhetting, I've already told you my point was to make players understand that nerfing Bloodwhetting won't solve the root problem.
I'm not even a Warrior main and you can easily check this information, I like the DT iteration but not for Bloodwhetting, otherwise I would have liked EW Warrior.

I do care about dungeon balance, have you missed all my posts about wanting to increase the damage received by the whole party? How I want dungeons to be actual tutorials?
I'm simply against the nerf mentality accusing Bloodwhetting of all the Healer's suffering.

Do you still want to make this about me? Why don't we go back to the actual topic?

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Ok, thank you for clarity. I'm not trying to "make it about you", I'm trying to understand what your position is because I don't want to straw-man you, and it's frankly quite confusing when you say "I do care about dungeon balance" after talking about "content in which balance doesn't matter" 3 posts before.

There is one thing you still have not clarified though, and if you don't mind I'd like a straight answer: is Bloodwhetting overpowered in dungeons?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The reason I want not to nerf Bloodwhetting is for multiple reasons:
-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.

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I'm fine with that. With sufficient gradual polish that puts tank capacities under scaling that better simultaneously fit casual and harder content (and, ideally, thereby allows for more skill expression), we might finally get more engaging tanking, both in itself (for not being so overtuned relative to content) and as it impacts surrounding play.

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-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.

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Those aren't mutually exclusive, and of the two, the second is already getting the more discussion, by a huge margin.

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-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

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No, it's not. It makes that content more dull for those who are overpowered and increasingly grindy for anyone who isn't.

Each job having some area in which they far outstrip the others is good only if there's still net parity overall; otherwise, job choice increasingly dwindles down to Overpowered Job and Everyone Else.

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To then I brought my counter-argument: PLD and GNB are also able to so similar things while being even more optimal for PLD.

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Which doesn't even counter the argument. That X is possible on other jobs does not disprove that a given job is significantly advantaged, let alone that there is no detriment to the larger game from its being so advantaged.

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It would've been whataboutism if I directly avoided the issue.

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The only reason it isn't wholly a whataboutism is because it wasn't even a direct response.

• Others: "X is overpowered, to the subtle but noticeable detriment of gameplay for itself and far more noticeably for others."
  
  
• Your response: "Other options, too, are viable. Do you want to nerf them too?!!"

"Warrior will have 50% extra HP"

Before tank homogenization, Defiance used to give +25% (or was it 20%?) increased max HP and +25% increase to healing received. I doubt this will ever return, but I did like the idea of WAR having tons of HP - made them feel unique.

"Warrior heal 3% of their max HP of each attack action"

Sorry, but this will never happen. Not that I dislike it, but it will never be at thing. Heck, it would be better if DRK got this, but I still doubt it would happen. Why? It would be too strong. WAR has tons of self-sustain as it is, and none of them impact their ability to do damage (see Clemency for PLD). WAR doesn't need more self-sustain, in fact I think it has too much. Give some of that love to DRK.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

There is one thing you still have not clarified though, and if you don't mind I'd like a straight answer: is Bloodwhetting overpowered in dungeons?

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I've already adressed that specific point.
Yes, it is overpowered and that's fine, it doesn't hurts the game. You need a specific content and specific scenario to have Bloodwhetting overpowered. Ironically we've had dungeons where the Warrior couldn't massively pull and was limited to 3 targets. Was Bloodwhetting broken there?
Balance doesn't matter in dungeons but you still need to make them engaging. Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't make them more engaging, you can keep Bloodwhetting as it is for job fantasy while making dungeons entertaining for everyone. Many people already discussed taking the criterion approach.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[*]Your response: "Other options, too, are viable. Do you want to nerf them too?!!"[/LIST]

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"Other options can do similar performance, even if we happen to nerf them. We shouldn't slow down every car because the road uses bad materials, we should improve the road."

Using Paladin as an example is meant to show that even if Bloodwhetting was nerfed, Paladin would simply take its place because it can do the exact same things. And if you nerf Paladin, then Gunbreaker can take its place. The actors aren't the problem, it's the scene, dungeons are dull by default.

Whataboutism is deflecting a concern by bringing another unrelated concern.
"Concern A is important and should be the focus!" "But what about Concern B!"
But I'm still focusing on the same concern A, Warrior and Paladin are part of the same context (job balance), I don't avoid Warrior discussion and I compare it with Paladin, still adressing the original concern.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Other options can do similar performance

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Other jobs are not similar. PLD healing+mitigation is closer to GNB than WAR is to PLD.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

And sure, PLD should be toned down a bit too. In particular Divine Veil is far to strong.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've already adressed that specific point.
Yes, it is overpowered and that's fine, it doesn't hurts the game. You need a specific content and specific scenario to have Bloodwhetting overpowered. Ironically we've had dungeons where the Warrior couldn't massively pull and was limited to 3 targets. Was Bloodwhetting broken there?
Balance doesn't matter in dungeons but you still need to make them engaging.

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Okay, so it took us less than 12 hours to circle back from "I do care about dungeon balance" to "Balance doesn't matter in dungeons". If you think that Bloodwhetting being overpowered in dungeons is fine because balance in dungeons doesn't matter, that's fine, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. Just don't come back and tell me you care about balance in dungeons when you so clearly do not.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't make them [the dungeons] more engaging

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Sure, that is a true statement. Here is more true statements:

Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't fix the netcode in FFXIV.
Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't fix climate change.
Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't fix world hunger.

None of which are arguments for not nerfing Bloodwhetting.