Positionals

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Personally, I just don't see any fun or value in positionals in the current game state. I can live if they stay as is, it doesn't overly detract from my fun. It just adds zero meaningful contribution to my engagement with the game in their current state and would rather their slow death just be finalized and replaced already. I agree that given SE's track record on combat design and iteration it is unlikely we'll see anything meaningful in regard to positionals for the foreseeable future.

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Trying to get all positionals in fights where it's more of a challenge in high end content is quite fun and engaging on DRG.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Finding the difference between consistency and homogeneity here feels very much like hair-splitting. Please elaborate as both heavily imply sameness between different items.

I can't speak for others, but I don't use or look at my parses. My issues are with the unneeded consistency in giving all melee jobs positionals regardless to whether it aligns with their class fantasy or not. I would actually be okay with positionals being an all or nothing thing if they aligned with class fantasy.



What would make something a functional argument, here? What makes something a non-functional one? Is there a reason that the disadvantage of positionals couldn't be accommodated for since they're already accommodated for with RPhys?

Also, I don't know what you mean by pure spam melee class.

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I'm saying that this mechanic exists in melee because it just makes sense. No, not everything in the game is based on realism, but thereorerically someone attacking another person or thing at melee range does have to consider their positioning to some degree. So it just feels natural as an idea. That's probably why it's inherent to the class.

Suggesting that we make it like rphys btw, is homogeny at work. So far positionals are consistent because (with the very tiny exception of early NIN) they're just inherent to the role. It is intentional. Subtracting that away might differentiate it from some melee, but then it makes them functionally like other jobs in the game. Hence, homogeny.

What do I mean by spam? I mean that a melee that does not have to consider positionals is basically a spam attacker in comparison to one that does, rotations notwithstanding. It's a very similar concept between SMN and BLM. There's a reason their DPS is distinct (well, a few reasons, to be fair).

Positionals were fine in the past, but once you have bosses spinning every 2s with their super sized hitboxes it just becomes annoying. Either keep big boss hitboxes and get rid of positionals or vice versa. Both just don't work together.

Bring back Tank responsibility in positioning and stop having bosses reset themselves to center facing south.

"Removing positionals would alienate a portion of the melee dps playerbase" lool. You'd get over it in a day or less unless you wanted to complain. Then it's a good thing, because you have something to complain about and that's what you want to do.

If they remove positionals they can redesign the ugly target circle that is designed around positional indication on top of removing true north. Those two reasons alone justify it entirely. It would also make encounter design much more streamlined and enable them to put the "difficulty" of positionals in more meaningful areas of gameplay.

Positionals hold the game back largely and this is very understated in the community.

Removing positionals doesn't make melee spam attackers either. Rotations would still be as complex and rigid as they are currently. You could simply focus more on execution of the rotation itself and everyone would be playing at a higher level. Melee is melee, you hit the enemy with a melee weapon at melee range. Ranged is ranged, you're either a caster or using a ranged weapon to attack the target from range. There is no homogenization.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Positionals were fine in the past, but once you have bosses spinning every 2s with their super sized hitboxes it just becomes annoying. Either keep big boss hitboxes and get rid of positionals or vice versa. Both just don't work together.

Bring back Tank responsibility in positioning and stop having bosses reset themselves to center facing south.

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The original post doesn't really address this but I think it has become central to the thread. Are positionals a problem or is it encounter design? This is a very important consideration* before suggesting deleting something from the game based on very very end game content.

If you want a melee without positionals, play as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Are positionals a problem or is it encounter design?

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Yes.

EW encounter design has the issue where melee can punch and stab and hack at the boss while standing out in Narnia. :confused::confused::confused:

Positionals as a mechanic has the issue that it's mechanic devoid of impact and feel. Pugilist/Monk is an easy example here. If you're running through Duty Finder content, positionals are irrelevant. Failing every single one has no meaningful impact on an encounter or your rotation (whatever passes for such in Duty Finder). Worse, even if you're trying to do the positionals correctly, they're so infrequent in the rotation that they don't convey the feel of a fleet-footed individual dancing around their opponent.

The game, as a whole, needs to commit to something, instead of the current middle ground of apathy.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I'm saying that this mechanic exists in melee because it just makes sense. No, not everything in the game is based on realism, but thereorerically someone attacking another person or thing at melee range does have to consider their positioning to some degree. So it just feels natural as an idea. That's probably why it's inherent to the class.

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I would agree if we were mostly fighting same-sized humans, but I'm the game as is, I'm several feet away and attacking something's leg or the air below something. Who even knows where the week point is on a pudding.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Suggesting that we make it like rphys btw, is homogeny at work. So far positionals are consistent because (with the very tiny exception of early NIN) they're just inherent to the role. It is intentional. Subtracting that away might differentiate it from some melee, but then it makes them functionally like other jobs in the game. Hence, homogeny.

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I'm not suggesting making it like rphys, that would imply getting rid of the melee requirement. I'm saying that they've already find ways to account for positionals being required for some jobs and not others - a direct response to you starting that they would have to do so. I'm agreeing with you that they would, but also saying that they have in the past.

I also don't generally get hung up on role based distinctions beyond the Trinity. Within those, I care about individual class identity.

NIN, it's mudras
MNK, stands and solar/lunar
RPR, nothing
DRG, jumps and needs more of them
SAM, coins and could use something else

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

"Rotations would still be as complex and rigid as they are currently

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And that's where I stop reading.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

I would agree if we were mostly fighting same-sized humans, but I'm the game as is, I'm several feet away and attacking something's leg or the air below something. Who even knows where the week point is on a pudding.



I'm not suggesting making it like rphys, that would imply getting rid of the melee requirement. I'm saying that they've already find ways to account for positionals being required for some jobs and not others - a direct response to you starting that they would have to do so.

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I was implying/assuming as I've said, that classes which are positional absent would simply get potency nerfed. That's the inevitable tradeoff. The devs are not going to habe a subdivision of melee who work harder to maintain dps but not reap any kind of reward for that. One person might find it annoying, other people ITT have explained it makes encounters more fun for them.

What I mean when I say they become homogenous with Rphys is not removing melee distance, but rather pointing out that aside from distance and every jobs rotation, the gameplay will feel more samey than it did before. Getting rid of positionals only makes melee more like rPhys, not less.

And you may say "well it's only 20% more samey feeling" yet, imo, that's too much in a game where nearly everyone feels that jobs feel more and more like one another every expansion.

And this is also why I say looking at positionals and how they can make them more fun/more unique > getting rid of them altogether or even in part. Encounter design revisions could help to bridge the gap.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

...with the huge hit boxes and constant turning of current boss design it's more of a hassle then anything.

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I hope you know that you don't need to stand outside and on the very flank or very back to hit your positional. The only thing that is bad with big hitboxes in context with positionals is if you stand inside it can be harder to see if you are at the back or flank or front

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Originally Posted by VeolE

And that's where I stop reading.

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Did a positional ever change the button input? Nope it did not.

A big no to removing positional. Games already dumbed down enough

All removing positionals would do is remove some of the last of the brain power required to optimize dps. Unless they decide to actually replace positionals with anything worth calling engaging/interactive I'd like them to stay.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Did a positional ever change the button input?

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It often does. If an upcoming boss mechanic such as a cleave temporarily denies access to a particular positional direction, then you can alter your combo set order or introduce in a GCD offset so that the positional now occurs at a point when you have access to it. You can burn TN as well, but a simple adjustment may allow you to save it for a more beneficial place later. This is Melee 101.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Did a positional ever change the button input? Nope it did not.

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movement is also button input

Instead of calling for the complete removal of positionals from the melee role and alienating the people who enjoy the act of hitting those positionals, why not instead ask for RPR to not have positionals? RPR already barely has to think about positionals, it also feels like a system that doesn't really belong on RPR.

As for a replacement system, maybe using any of the avatar's attacks will latch the avatar onto the enemy and using any attack that consumes soul reaver stacks from the same position as the avatar will cause it to attack too. Basically you can control where this "positional" is, it also allows you to just camp one side and just never move if you want.

What about looking to something like old DRG jumps as a potential positional replacement on a single melee

Rather than an attack that has to be executed from a particular angle you have attacks that cause self negative debuffs or animation locks

So x attack can be executed from anywhere but it generates a rather long animation lock or an attack that after you used it it slowed your movement speed for 5 seconds after. Then you could introduce something like a SAM style rotation where if you are in a phase you physically cannot afford a movement penalty you could move around when you use that attack

So rather than organising where your positionals sit you organise when you can afford a “dangerous” attack and when you need to move it around for a different dangerous attack

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Instead of calling for the complete removal of positionals from the melee role and alienating the people who enjoy the act of hitting those positionals, why not instead ask for RPR to not have positionals? RPR already barely has to think about positionals, it also feels like a system that doesn't really belong on RPR.

As for a replacement system, maybe using any of the avatar's attacks will latch the avatar onto the enemy and using any attack that consumes soul reaver stacks from the same position as the avatar will cause it to attack too. Basically you can control where this "positional" is, it also allows you to just camp one side and just never move if you want.

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At the end of the day, people should play jobs because they enjoy the rpg fantasy of it, not because it doesn't have an annoying gameplay mechanic. Alienating people who want to play samurai or ninja is far worse than alienating people who want to move left or right for half a second once or twice in their entire rotation.

I will just not do positionals regardless and the overall level of play will be lower in the community because it's simply not fun. I'm not going to play a job I don't want to play just because it doesn't have positionals. I will just pretend the job I want to play doesn't have positionals and nobody will notice because they are going to be too focused on their own gameplay.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

At the end of the day, people should play jobs because they enjoy the rpg fantasy of it, not because it doesn't have an annoying gameplay mechanic. Alienating people who want to play samurai or ninja is far worse than alienating people who want to move left or right for half a second once or twice in their entire rotation.

I will just not do positionals regardless and the overall level of play will be lower in the community because it's simply not fun. I'm not going to play a job I don't want to play just because it doesn't have positionals. I will just pretend the job I want to play doesn't have positionals and nobody will notice because they are going to be too focused on their own gameplay.

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It may be annoying to you, but enjoyable to others. That's what preferences are. Most people pick the job they want to play according to the playstyle of the job, like it or not, positionals are part of the playstyle of the melee DPS role. People who want to play samurai and ninja are not being alienated by positionals existing as they can completely ignore them, but a mechanic of a job/role being taken out will alienate people.

In the end, nobody sane is demanding that randoms in their party hit all their positionals or get kicked, so if you personally hate the existence of positionals, you can safely ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Instead of calling for the complete removal of positionals from the melee role and alienating the people who enjoy the act of hitting those positionals, why not instead ask for RPR to not have positionals? RPR already barely has to think about positionals, it also feels like a system that doesn't really belong on RPR.

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RPR or VPR, either one would be fine by me. As soon as reaper launched I already commented how I liked that the positionals are not tied to it's main combo. It's already doing the least damage out of melees so it's not being rewarded for having positionals as it is. Or make viper not have positionals, and the people saying "just play rphys" can "just not play viper".

When it comes to the concept of “making a melee without positionals would just create a two tiered system with either an enforced damage difference or the positional melee working harder for the same result” doesn’t this functionally already exist with the melees

Like I mean monk without its positionals is still harder than RPR with reapers positionals, couldn’t by that logic you are that MNK (I’m not saying MNK itself I more mean as a hypothetical) doesn’t actually need its positionals to fit into the melee meta as it would still be harder than RPR without them

Couldn’t VPR just be as complex as say MNK then without positionals do something akin to RPR’s damage (as an example)

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I will just pretend the job I want to play doesn't have positionals and nobody will notice because they are going to be too focused on their own gameplay.

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Highlighted the crucial key parts. If more people can think like that, then maybe we wouldn't need to bring up these "positional" threads in the first place.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ap6LSaSeQ...t-to-laugh.gif

Add more positionals please! (especially to Monk)
And give me some juicy feedback when I hit them, because it's difficult to tell that currently.

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Originally Posted by VeolE

Highlighted the crucial key parts. If more people can think like that, then maybe we wouldn't need to bring up these "positional" threads in the first place.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ap6LSaSeQ...t-to-laugh.gif

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Sadly I wish this were true, I had a Tank call me out on not doing positionals the other night and he blamed me that the dungeon was taking "noticeably longer", This is why I came to the forums to see if there were likeminded people like me who would like to play melee but dont have the physical dexterity to pull off all the positionals, guess ill just get shoehorned into RDPS and be alienated from playing melee.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Sadly I wish this were true, I had a Tank call me out on not doing positionals the other night and he blamed me that the dungeon was taking "noticeably longer", This is why I came to the forums to see if there were likeminded people like me who would like to play melee but dont have the physical dexterity to pull off all the positionals, guess ill just get shoehorned into RDPS and be alienated from playing melee.

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Positionals are not required to clear any content, and especially not dungeons. For those, AoE is what will make things noticeably faster during trash pulls and just normal single target rotations during bosses. That tank was just being a bit silly.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

At the end of the day, people should play jobs because they enjoy the rpg fantasy of it, not because it doesn't have an annoying gameplay mechanic. Alienating people who want to play samurai or ninja is far worse than alienating people who want to move left or right for half a second once or twice in their entire rotation.

I will just not do positionals regardless and the overall level of play will be lower in the community because it's simply not fun. I'm not going to play a job I don't want to play just because it doesn't have positionals. I will just pretend the job I want to play doesn't have positionals and nobody will notice because they are going to be too focused on their own gameplay.

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At the end of the day, people should play a job for whatever reason they want. Its a videogame.

I like positionals. And to me, fun gameplay is more important than aesthetics. Why would the preferences of positional enjoyers be less important than the preferences of positional dislikers?

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Sadly I wish this were true, I had a Tank call me out on not doing positionals the other night and he blamed me that the dungeon was taking "noticeably longer", This is why I came to the forums to see if there were likeminded people like me who would like to play melee but dont have the physical dexterity to pull off all the positionals, guess ill just get shoehorned into RDPS and be alienated from playing melee.

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I just can't believe this happened just purely because of positionals, mostly because it seems almost impossible to keep track of people doing positionals in a dungeon because it's mostly AOE, and also because just by being on the rear side of the boss you're getting most positionals automatically anyways, I mean unless you were dpsing from the front standing next to the tank all boss fight long?
If so you have bigger problems than just not doing positionals and he was probably just not happy with a dps standing next to him which is understandable, that's just not a good idea in general even if dungeon bosses don't cleave often.

Functionally, Positionals encourage Non-Mandatory movement for Melees and how Tanks pull bosses. Removal only serves to simplify the game further. Hitting Positionals isn't hard to do, but landing them all the time? takes at least something. The Mathematical DPS gain/loss is negligible to not even account it as a game issue.

- Do Positionals gatekeep anyone?
No. Not from playing Melee jobs nor clearing Content as landing them is optional. The false conception that landing all Positionals mattering to clear x content = asinine.

- Do Positionals hold back Encounter Designs?
No. No proof that Dev's are & the past shown us that Square will make encounters/mechanics without taking into account if you can land positionals comfortably or at all. Managing/Wasting True North resources and thinking it matters is up to the players, even if the boss mindlessly teleports to the center of the arena.

- How much Fun is positionals?
This is subjective. For me? The thought of needing to do less for equal or more DPS output, isn't rewarding and is less Fun. If optional movement for tiny DPS gain isn't your cup of tea? great. Not for me. I care very little for Class fantasy after Square lawnmowed my Samurai's animations down to being a stabbing machine anyways. My Job is also dumb enough as it is. So I don't understand the obsessive fetishization many have on how optimally we all can collectively streamline XIV further in the hopes Square will replace anything we suggest to remove with something better... when they shown no track-record to me that they actually done so, but that's of course a lukewarm take.

- Conclusion?
Positional Topic is as non-issue as it is landing them all in Raids to me... i.e? about the last thing I'd worry about. Can it be better? Yes, though knowing Square, it probably wont? but its removal would erase that possibility completely. XIV has plenty of Gameplay/Job-issues to worry about in general. Positional removal is just another step down dunce-lane when Square ran multiple marathons through it already, mhm. I also don't like the idea of Tanks being encouraged to spin every Boss 360 degrees even more then it already is cause I care oh-so-much about my immersion...

https://i.ibb.co/rmH9z0x/sup.gif

A step in the right direction is a clearer indication if you hit the positional correctly. Even just an asterisk after the HP damage number would go a long way in helping players know if they're properly executing the attack.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

I just can't believe this happened just purely because of positionals, mostly because it seems almost impossible to keep track of people doing positionals in a dungeon because it's mostly AOE, and also because just by being on the rear side of the boss you're getting most positionals automatically anyways, I mean unless you were dpsing from the front standing next to the tank all boss fight long?
If so you have bigger problems than just not doing positionals and he was probably just not happy with a dps standing next to him which is understandable, that's just not a good idea in general even if dungeon bosses don't cleave often.

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People like to think they pay better attention than they do to be fair. I once had some guy get on my case for not using battle voice on cooldown for trash pulls in a dungeon. He was a total jerk about it, but he was right, so i fixed it immediately, but he continued to whine and moan and made some snarky comment on the final boss about how id "finally done it once." Stuck in my head as one of the nastiest people I've encountered in this game - a rarity, thankfully.

Anyway some people are jerks and like to fixate on stupid things to be jerks about. Id fully believe it of someone picked "this guy isnt shuffling back and forth enough" to be The Thing for them.

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Originally Posted by avaule

One thing that might be nice about removing positionals is that perhaps you'd see the melee spread out a bit more instead of being stacked on top of each other at the rear-flank boundary. Looks kinda silly when it happens. I'd still prefer to keep them, though.

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I'd prefer they stay, but if they do get removed I hope we get more interactive bosses like P2.

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Originally Posted by Asako

I'd prefer they stay, but if they do get removed I hope we get more interactive bosses like P2.

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P2S is a watered down ( no pun intended ) wall boss in disguise to me. The supposedly unique Arena design players praise? did not make it any more enjoyable besides it having a gigantic hitbox and despite it having a cool looking Limit Cut, or at least for me from my Samurai's PoV cause. I care a lot more about how my Job feels during a fight. Like are my Iaijutsu cast times really that tight? but in P2S, I stand still to long for mechanics to resolve, nothing feels tight at all its very forgiving which boils down to it becoming a striking dummy for a lot of the fight until we roleplay Bumper-Cars which isn't interactive - despite its unique arena design which looked great.

That doesn't mean Fights without Positionals or Wall-Bosses can't be great... even though I coincidentally find P7S / P8S p2 / P12S p2 the least fun yet ironically P10S a wall boss a lot of Fun. I also don't see how giving up Positionals promises us more interactive bosses or more simplifications as Endwalker Savage has proven us pretty differently. I find ShB Savage more interactive then EW like the comparison between E11S and it's discount version P11S

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Originally Posted by hunter2

Add more positionals please! (especially to Monk)
And give me some juicy feedback when I hit them, because it's difficult to tell that currently.

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sounds good. i dont play monk often but when i do i still do the old positionals unintentionally xD
but thats still more egaging than just standing there or jumping around without aim

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

I just can't believe this happened just purely because of positionals, mostly because it seems almost impossible to keep track of people doing positionals in a dungeon because it's mostly AOE, and also because just by being on the rear side of the boss you're getting most positionals automatically anyways, I mean unless you were dpsing from the front standing next to the tank all boss fight long?
If so you have bigger problems than just not doing positionals and he was probably just not happy with a dps standing next to him which is understandable, that's just not a good idea in general even if dungeon bosses don't cleave often.

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You can choose to not believe it all you like, it happened the guy was abit of a douche about it aswell, as I had only just returned to the game I asked my husband what the heck he was on about as I had genuinely forgot that positionals were the crappy part of melee, honestly i havent done a dungeon since and if I will again ill go RDPS.

What if they replaced postionals with directionals. Like you can have attacks that deal more damage while you are strafing or attacks that deal more damage while moving forward. This way, the positioning minigame is character relative, and will always be present no matter what shape the boss's hitbox is. A new UI element could be created to indicate what direction inputs you have active for visual clarity like how we have a cast bar. True North can can still exist for when you should not be moving.

I think some roles just naturally attract different types of players. Tanks always have some potential to cause wipes. FFXIV has tried its hardest to design the anxiety out of tanking. You have auto-healing tanks who don't have to worry about losing aggro, coupled with auto-positioning bosses and an excess of defensive actions including invulns. And still, to this day, players talk about tankxiety and refuse to tank because of it.

If you're the sort of player who is actually determined to tank, then you never would have needed any such changes to get into the role in the first place. You'll wipe countless times and learn from your setbacks every time, because you naturally have thick skin and are driven to succeed. That's not something that can be taught.

Simplifying a role does not draw in new players who were not already determined to take up the mantle in the first place. Simplification only devalues their effort and devalues their experiences.

Melee DPS likewise draws in players who tend to be very obsessive about their performance. You'll find that solitary pixel that lets you maintain uptime, knowing that the slightest offset will instantly kill you. You'll stay on the boss until the very last instant before disengaging, to the point that you'll send your healers into a panic. And you'll know the fights to the point that you can recall every single movement and rotation the bosses make from memory.

And if that sounds like a horrible, awful way to play the game, then that's probably true - for you. No amount of change to the role will ever convince you to stick with it. You'll try it out, level it up, and then eventually drop it in favor of the roles you've naturally shown a preference towards in the past. After all, you didn't need any convincing to play them in the first place.

Design roles for the people who love it, not for the people who hate it.

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Originally Posted by hunter2

Add more positionals please! (especially to Monk)

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I'd like more positionals for monk also. I could then organize my action bars into flank and rear positionals.

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Originally Posted by hunter2

And give me some juicy feedback when I hit them, because it's difficult to tell that currently.

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Yes, please! Increase the number of postionals for monk, then provide obvious, visual feedback telling us if we hit or flub a positional.

I wasn't specific enough in my original post. When I said EW in particular feels anti melee is because there's way too many moments in bosses or even trash where you're just constantly forced to stand out of range until a mechanic is over or you have to run out of point blank aoes as soon as you try to do some damage. It's frustrating and just feels like bad game design. It's been mentioned many times in this thread but it's pretty pathetic when people are defending positionals as some engaging form of gameplay. If we had better Job design and more interesting rotations Noone would bat an eye at the removal of positionals. Outside of a couple of rogue abilities, wow never had positionals on anything and it's never been an issue. People Def don't play melee to do flank and rear attacks either Lol and as mentioned in the thread there's no indicator showing you actually landed it. If they want to keep them in the game, give indicators they landed and make them more important.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Melee DPS likewise draws in players who tend to be very obsessive about their performance. You'll find that solitary pixel that lets you maintain uptime, knowing that the slightest offset will instantly kill you. You'll stay on the boss until the very last instant before disengaging, to the point that you'll send your healers into a panic. And you'll know the fights to the point that you can recall every single movement and rotation the bosses make from memory.

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Yes, doing high damage whilst maximizing uptime in melee range is the point of melee jobs. The fact that none of the above actually describes positionals should tell you why there exists melee players who are drawn to the role but would enjoy it more without a clunky mechanic with zero in-game feedback.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Design roles for the people who love it, not for the people who hate it.

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Design jobs for the different people enjoying the same role, not for gatekeepers or players who want to homogenize jobs within the same role. Hopefully viper or the melee after that will have no positionals. :)