Drk wasn't boring when every tank had something going for them, but War mains want to do everything and be the best at everything. So now War is just a better Drk in every regard. It's what yall have asked for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardeth
-
12-19-2023, 08:10 PMGoatOfWar
-
12-19-2023, 08:39 PMSomnolenceI think holy trinity is obsolete since people that do endgame no longer want to do heavy support roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asako
Older MMOs like Lineage 2 had pure support roles. Do you know how people played them even back then? By dual boxing on auto-follow. -
12-19-2023, 10:58 PMArdethOh, I'm not a Warrior main. I'm more of a Summoner main. But I also don't ask for anything involving class design in general. I think the only thing I said was having 3 more summons would be cool. I'm not like a min max authority. I'm just a guy, and those other 3 tanks aren't fun to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
-
12-20-2023, 01:11 AMMimilu
My suggestions for jobs I've at least touched:
Healers Overall
-Remove Repose
-Remove Rescue
AST
-Remove Undraw (it has no good purpose)
-Make Draw and Play one button
-Make Benefic upgrade to Benefic II
-Combine Celestial Intersection and Exaltation (Heal and 200% Barrier + heal when popped or effect ends) with 3 charges and 30 second cooldown.
-Honestly, they could remove Minor Arcana; as it is now, it's too random to be dependable
WHM
-Have Cure Upgrade to Cure II
-Replace Afflatus Solace, Rapture, and Misery with a button that turns Cure/Cure II, Medica, and Stone/Glare into them respectfully
-Combine Divine Bennison and Aquaveil (Barrier + reduce damage taken by 15%) with 3 charges and a 30 second cooldown
-Combine Asylum and Temperance (Damage reduction + Regen + Healing spell potency buff) with a 90 second cooldown
SGE
-Maybe they could combine Physis I/II and Kerachole, seeing as they are so often used together
SCH
-Combine Whispering Dawn/Angel's Whisper and Fey Blessing
-Honestly, I think they need to decide if they want SCH's main resource is either Aetherflow or the Faerie Gauge and remove the one they don't pick
DNC
-Have Devilment turn into Starfall Dance while you have Flourishing Starfall
-Have Flourish turn into Fan Dance IV while you have Fourfold Fan Dance
BRD
-Remove Barrage and have Raging Strike give you 3 Straight Shot Ready procs
-Have Blood Letter and Rain of Death upgrade to Sidewinder and Shadowbite respectfully, both with a 15 second cooldown
-Combine Battle Voice and Radiant Finale (Flat Crit and DHit increase + Damage increase per Coda)
-I can't decide if having the songs share a button would be good or not. Just have the rotation go Minuet > Ballad > Paeon > Minuet -
12-20-2023, 02:39 AMMoshaAs someone who plays SGE, I rarely use Physis I/II and Kerachole together as Aoe's rarely hit hard enough to warrant a HOT and the ticks from it would just be O.healing at least in normal content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
-
12-20-2023, 02:40 AMStarRosieAs an actual WAR main. No, I don't want to do everything and be the best at everything. That's a huge broad stroke accusation. I just wanna fell cleave stuff till its dead and be way too angry to die. I wanted WAR to feel like WAR again and hey, it feels like WAR again. Cause being too angry to die and self healing has ALWAYS been WAR's thing. Except in Stormblood when they took Bloodbath away from WAR, nerfed it, and handed it to all the melee DPS and gave us nothing to replace it. It's just back when Bloodbath belonged to WAR, stuff actually hit the tank pretty hard. So Bloodbath's self healing was balanced out. They tried tip toeing around returning WAR to its roots in ShB, but Nascent started too restrictive. You HAD to cast it on a party member. Only near the middle to tail end of ShB did they relent and allow WAR to cast Nascent on themselves. Now we have Bloodwhetting, which is problematic, but only because stuff hits like marshmallows. If things hit like they did back in HW, we'd for the most part be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
The issue isn't that WAR became a better DRK, it's that DRK became a worse DRK. The loss of stuff like Dark Arts, is one example of this. It is incredibly obvious that SE has no god damn clue what to do with Dark Knight. Stuff like Enhanced Unmend, is a VERY clear indicator of this. DRK has been leaning on its "Top DPS Tank" label as an identity for a while now. And now that SE finally decided to up both WAR and PLD's damage, but not DRK's damage, it led to Dark Knight falling to last place and losing its one thing. Which is now making the reality of how badly SE has been bumbling DRK be very apparent to a lot of people. It's not that WAR needs to be torn down, but DRK needs to be either built back up or rebuilt entirely to clean up the mess it is right now. -
12-20-2023, 02:47 AMLiumYes, please. All of this, with the exception of Minor Arcana. I do like having either the extra AOE heal or AOE damage during trash pulls, since AST doesn't have the stun that WHM has with their Holy spam. I use it quite often. Particularly on boss fights where Lady of Crowns can come in handy after raid/party wide damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
-
12-20-2023, 05:18 AMmallleableI would not like these suggestions as someone who active plays BRD. I think Barrage is the most archer-appropriate approach to handling high burst damage as you are nocking multiple arrows, and firing them off at once. I would rather they change is so that using Burst Shot/Ladonsbite grants a stack of like 'Barraged shot ready,' they can be stacked up to three times, and using Refulgent Arrow/Shadowbite consumes any available stacks adding a hit to each stack consumed. And then Barrage as a cooldown, doubles the number of hits of Barraged Shot ready skills making them hit up to six times. I'm not sure what they should do with Blood Letter/Rain of Death if they even need todo anything with them though. I'm kinda indifferent toward the idea of combining Radiant Finale, and Battle Voice. I like that the sound effect for Battle Voice triggers for every party member that it hit so I would not want to give that up. And combing all the songs into one button would be truly, truly awful. They don't need to be made anymore strict or janky to use or punishing to recover when you get killed. Just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
-
12-20-2023, 05:48 AMZiraZMost of those suggestions are awful and would end up handicapping those jobs for absolutely no gain, but I laughed at the idea of whm having 2 buttons and becoming a paper weight after dealing with 1 raidwide and having the mit of a dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
-
12-20-2023, 10:10 AMShurrikhanUnchained/Inner Release + Steel Cyclone self-healing honestly did for dungeons about all that Bloodbath did, and roughly the same (just more burstily) for raids if we actually somehow needed that extra healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarRosie
At the time, you also didn't lose any personal healing for doing so. It's just that not casting it on an ally, even after that change, wasted half the healing. But it was certainly unnecessarily clunky.Quote:
Nascent started too restrictive. You HAD to cast it on a party member.
But, yeah. This.Quote:
The issue isn't that WAR became a better DRK, it's that DRK became a worse DRK.
-
12-20-2023, 10:38 AMEusisLandaleYeah, stacking Physis and Kerachole is just weird after 78 since the latter gets a regen at that point. Better to just spread them out over time. Combining them like Mimilu is suggesting would just make the healing kit weaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosha
-
12-20-2023, 10:38 AMStarRosieValid, though I still didn't like that it got ripped away with no replacement. Though that's more a personal thing I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I never really felt this? Or maybe I do not remember it. I think I was just overall happy the clunky restriction was gone and didn't pay it much mind. So I'm curious what ya mean here.Quote:
At the time, you also didn't lose any personal healing for doing so. It's just that not casting it on an ally, even after that change, wasted half the healing. But it was certainly unnecessarily clunky.
Yeah...yeeeeaaahhhhh....two of my best pals have been DRK mains since HW. And I've listened to a lot of rants from them about DRK this expac...Quote:
But, yeah. This.
-
12-20-2023, 10:38 AMAbsurdityYou also had Inner Release + Inner Beast spam which I'd argue was stronger than Bloodbath ever was in raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I have brute forced my raid pugs into seeing new boss phases with it or managed to keep myself alive while someone was trying to scrape the healers off the floor.
That's simply the case for over half of warrior's kit in general, ripped out to be replaced with either "hurr durr big damage"-button or absolutely nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarRosie
Nascent Flash in ShB did basically just the same thing it does now, the healing could just be either stronger or a lot weaker than the current version depending on how good your dps output was.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarRosie
It wasn't really clunky, because the current NF isn't, and more so unnecessarily restrictive considering CBU3 removed the healing tools you had in Stormblood. -
12-20-2023, 11:00 AMShurrikhanThat... was the replacement, though: Inner Release allowing you at least two extra Inner Beasts, and Steel Cyclone granting huge amounts of healing in itself in AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarRosie
I meant just what I said. Using Nascent Flash on self just wasted Nascent Glint (half the total healing). You only got (and still only get) the same self-healing as when using it on an ally, without the 100% duplicated portion that would otherwise have gone to your ally.Quote:
I never really felt this? Or maybe I do not remember it. I think I was just overall happy the clunky restriction was gone and didn't pay it much mind. So I'm curious what ya mean here.
Exactly. Same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
-
12-20-2023, 11:28 AMStarRosieI...don't really see that as a replacement. That might be overall just a personal point of disagreement though. As that feels more a side effect of Inner Release's design, rather then direct intention. But again, that is just my look on it. I guess an agree to disagree part there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Ah, ok. I was thinking stupidly and didn't fully catch what you meant when reading that earlier. I was trying to think on how it effected the healing to me and came up blank. But, ok. Now my braincell has caught up.Quote:
I meant just what I said. Using Nascent Flash on self just wasted Nascent Glint (half the total healing). You only got (and still only get) the same self-healing as when using it on an ally, without the 100% duplicated portion that would otherwise have gone to your ally.
-
12-20-2023, 03:36 PMhynaku
Remove half the healing spells from healers.
-
12-20-2023, 04:58 PMJeeqbitTo be fair, it always felt in Heavensward like you were relying on the healer, especially in extreme and higher content. If the healer wasn't good or they died, the tank wasn't going to live for long. Whereas now they can simply brute force their way through half of an extreme trial completely solo while the rest of the party watches to get an advanced preview of all the mechanics. Regardless of healer design at the time, at least they weren't completely unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
It's useful between mob packs in dungeons. I often commend the DPS who use it when Sprint is on cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasingstars
Some mob packs do aoe circles that can be stunned so the DPS don't have to retreat.Quote:
Leg Sweep
It's actually that WAR and DRK have an identity clash. WAR was always about absorbing damage from its attacks with abilities such as Storm's Path and Bloodbath. DRK from other games was also about taking health from others. This presented a clash but they went with it anyway, allowing you to spam Abyssal Drain and use the Souleater combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
The MP cost of healing from Abyssal Drain was such that it wasn't meant to be spammed but if you were good at DRK you could keep the MP regenerating enough to spam it a lot. Then it got really spammed in Stormblood, so they nerfed that. They came up with a different way of doing it by absorbing the damage dealt into a shield, effectively achieving a similar result but making DRK a bit different.
It is difficult here because their identities clash quite a lot. But since they are now making jobs clones of eachother on a functional level, it's probably a waste bringing this point up anymore. Abyssal Drain will probably just increase in potency to be like Equilibrium eventually.
Dark Arts was meme'd out of existence tbh. I think Edge/Flood of Shadow is a good replacement in terms of animation and how it feels to use, but there is a bit too little interaction between actions now. The concept of fully absorbing damage into TBN to get an Edge/Flood attack is about the only interaction remaining. I felt that DRK was much more sophisticated than it needed to be in Heavensward, but they went a little over the top in how simple it was made in Shadowbringers.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarRosie
I liked to say it was the "shield" tank but when they put a shield that is 50% as good on Bloodwhetting in addition to its crazy healing potency and increased the raw mitigation on it to 20%, it really took away from that. In Shadowbringers, it actually felt like TBN was the best thing on tanks but now all the others have kinda surpassed it.Quote:
DRK has been leaning on its "Top DPS Tank" label as an identity for a while now.
I use those separately a lot. Especially useful if there are a lot of raid-wides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
Why? The Faerie Gauge is specifically for the regen while Aetherflow is for everything else. If everything else took from the regen meter, then the regen might end up not very effective when a lot of healing is required, such as during a big dungeon pull.Quote:
-Honestly, I think they need to decide if they want SCH's main resource is either Aetherflow or the Faerie Gauge and remove the one they don't pick
-
12-20-2023, 06:18 PMShurrikhanSomething being useful to press does not necessarily mean that it's useful/beneficial to the game, let alone as an additional button, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Do we really need a button specifically for out-of-combat permanent half-sprint? -
12-21-2023, 01:54 AMZiraZ
Peleton is pretty important in deep dungeons, which is an end-game activity when done solo and time becomes tight, also daily reminder removing something will never mean the devs add something back in return,they are actually really good at removing and not adding anything
-
12-21-2023, 02:24 AMStarRosieThat's overall what I mean by DRK became a worse DRK. The complexity and interactions between its kit were dumbed down in its own expansion, which is just...poetic irony. But I feel there is room to rebuild DRK in a way that lets it be complex again for those who want a tank with some form of complexity. One idea I had was having it basically be like BLM. You have your default state which is mostly what we have now, use dark arts to toggle into a different state where instead of abilities having MP costs, you just have your MP slowly draining while in that state. But your attacks get augmented to just hit like trucks and become things like Scourge, Delirium, and Power Slash as your GCD combo, Brimstone replacing Unmend, Tar Pit replacing Flood of Shadow. Then you swap back to default and use things like Blood Weapon and maybe a couple new things to regen the MP and then go back to Dark Arts state. TBN's shield breaking could allow you a free cast of a Dark Arts mode attack while in default, or if broken while in DA state, make the next ability used be a guaranteed crit or something. Is it a perfect idea? Likely not. But I feel like it having to balance and actively manage its MP, swapping between two states for high damage and recovery like BLM, would add something unique for DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
I would agree with the shield tank title, if the game did anything outside of savage that asked for all the extra mit DRK has. And, like you said, the other tanks didn't have stuff that makes TBN seem...weak. Whenever I do play DRK to shake things up, I never feel Oblation is ever needed. But I still just stack it, even if it feels like a waste...Dark Mind rarely feels like it comes up or is needed. DRK could have an identity as the mit stacking tank, if anything in the game really warranted that much mitigation outside of savage.Quote:
I liked to say it was the "shield" tank but when they put a shield that is 50% as good on Bloodwhetting in addition to its crazy healing potency and increased the raw mitigation on it to 20%, it really took away from that. In Shadowbringers, it actually felt like TBN was the best thing on tanks but now all the others have kinda surpassed it.
-
12-21-2023, 02:36 AMRolder50
Primal Rend and abilities like it (Where Button A unlocks the use of Button B) need to be consolidated such that Button A turns into Button B when activated instead of being a different button.
-
12-21-2023, 03:42 AMZiraZ
Devs need to add an unkippable tutorial that teaches people that modifiers/expanded hot crossbar exist apparently.
-
12-21-2023, 04:05 PMShougunThe preamble- In line with another comment, I don't think all role actions need to be the same and especially EXACTLY the same (visuals, name, and minor details at least, but sometimes, like sleep, it could be an opportunity for more diversity).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
On Peloton specifically though what if it had more interplay?
Like let's say for Bard it's called Adventurous Hum and once cast acts as a passive aura, with very seldom musical note effects as a special effect, granting an AoE minor speed boost to those around the Bard (in a fairly large radius). Players entering the radius might see a faint circle light up as they enter the bard's aura space and they gain the buff, if they leave the space their speed buff will gain a countdown of 15 seconds. While out of combat, if you activate it afterwards you gain additional movement speed bonus to the aura (energizing the hum), the bonus resetting every 30 seconds, the spell having a 15 second cooldown, but stacking up to 1 minute; however, the effect itself also stacks up to three times- essentially granting a permanent full speed sprint (130%) if you stack it over 45 seconds and maintain it there after.
The aura effect PAUSES in combat but automatically RESUMES when out of combat, if you want to fully cancel it then you specifically cancel the buff manually or change jobs (I feel adding an entire 'cancel' skill is a wasted slot when players could just manually cancel the buff if they hated running faster that much, alternatively a new right click mechanic to AURA spells which allows you to right click an aura ability and cancel it).
Now... when you enter combat it turns to Frenetic Chorus (keeping in mind the adventurous hum has paused) and it would temporarily greatly increase allies movement speed and rapidly degenerate over 5 seconds, if at the end of the duration they were not struck by a dodge-able AoE they then gain a 10% heal (worried about saying shield or offensive as it starts to demand people use it on cooldown, regardless of using it effectively to be a get out of dodge card). It doesn't have to relate to movement I suppose, or could be quirky movement, like grants a 10% speed boost to allies and damages nearby enemies 50 potency per tick UP TO X potency per enemy. (Meaning it's self balanced for 4 and 8 players).
I just think it would potentially be removing flavor if we ripped it out entirely. Now the thing is movement is a bit handy on each of those jobs so if we entirely killed it from the other two aiming jobs they might be miffed lol, iirc MCH solo DD was helped by it. So this might be one of those variant ideas where each job gets a new take on movement speed, but all generally helpful (yet thematic to them). -
12-21-2023, 09:31 PMGoatOfWar
I guess any and all healing on Pld and War now that they apparently need to do higher damage than the one tank that doesn't have any.
-
12-21-2023, 11:12 PMRithy255I want drk to do more damage as a PLD player, so i rather keep the healing (just remove holyspirit/conf combo healing), War should also do less damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
DRK also has pretty good self mitigation compared to most tanks (inside raids anyway by the nature of Dark Mind being magic only), but I do think it should be doing more then warrior. I actually disagree with PLD's buffs in 6.5 (and warriors buffs in 6.4)
In reality gunbreakers are laughing at everyone because they got really good everything and best DPS. -
12-22-2023, 05:59 AMDisasterGayofCrisis
Asking for tanks to not have healing is not something I'd support. Healing for any class can help take the ease off healers as well as offers sustainibility is the healer is down, in anything I feel we need better phoenix downs to address THAT issue so if a healer messes up a mechanic the answer to the fight is not stand still and wait for a wipe. I'm almost omni-90, I loved RDM and SMN solely because if the healer died it wasn't the end of a fight.
Let's be fair, not everyone is going to be optimal, almost every fight has a different range of unique mechanics that can be hard for some people to remember. That's why it's nice when some classes have healing or support mechanics. -
12-22-2023, 06:08 AMdsgawwewerfw
It's not a popular opinion but they should really replace ley lines with something else, as there is no way of playing Black Mage in high level content without someone in your party going:"Ugh solving these mechanics would be so much easier if we didn't have to cater to our BLM...".
You can really feel people sighing just by joining a party as this job. -
12-22-2023, 08:40 AMOizenGNB's sustain is around the same level that Dark Knight's is, and its party utility is basically identical, being borderline nonexistant outside of DM/HoL, and their short mit on an ally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Both fall very far behind in terms of healing and sustain, with WAR brining about 1.5x as much and PLD bringing 1.3x as much, based on statistics.
HoC is powerful but you're not going to pocket a non-tank indefinitely with it like you can Nascent or Intervention. More healing than DRK has with it, but then Living Dead is significantly better than Superbolide in my opinion, and TBN is available enough to where it basically evens out.
And content that demands more mit and sustain like Criterion Savage reflect this with DRK and GNB being played way less compared to WAR and PLD.
Tanks and healers in non standard content is probably the biggest balance disparity in the game. -
12-22-2023, 01:28 PMZairava
I don't feel like anything should be trimmed, that just sounds like it's being replaced with nothing which has been a major part of my criticism thus far. There's plenty that could be consolidated, though. Like Shoha and Shoha II as an example
-
12-22-2023, 03:22 PMRithy255Gunbreakers sustain is not the same as Dark Knight, Dark knights "sustain" that is shown on logs in a fight is because TBN counts as healing, The only sustain Dark Has is their Invul (and third combo which gunbreaker has but better and on their 2nd combo). You cannot count TBN has healing sustain, it's shielding, two separate things. those numbers aren't very accurate to Dark Knights actual healing sustain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Gunbreakers healing on HOC and aurora, are very comparable to what PLD/WAR has, War obviously beating both PLD/GNB out, PLD generally only heals more then GNB because of Divine Veil and magic attacks burst healing, Which is why I think out of the two I'd like to see PLD's magic burst healing removed if we were to dial down on PLD's self sustain abilities. If anything without that healing on req (which mind you isn't really fun because PLD can't even control that healing), PLD would have less sustain then GNB.
Why wouldn't you Use HOC in the same cases you use intervention/BW, Are we also forgetting GNB gets aurora to help out, I'm pretty sure I've easily sustained two DPS before as Gunbreaker, so it even has enough targetable sustain to keep others alive just like WAR/PLD, I'm In favour of buffing raid wides for GNB/DRK mind you, a 10% magic mit feels very underwhelming, Other then that It's hard to believe that Gunbreaker isn't still the more versatile and best tank, Pld can do with some small self sustain nerfs and I'm fine, Warrior can also do with the same especially it's AOE healing.
Criterion savage has balance Issues, if You look at Healers and DPS they're also suffering from major imbalances, if tanks like war/pld were so broken that they can replace healers then why would Whm/Ast play rates be so low compared to Sage?
what I disagree with is "No healing tools" I think PLD's healing/utility should be slightly better then your average tank in exchange for like marginally lower damage, Gunbreaker should remain the jack of all trades, Warrior should lean into being about big HP and Self healing but maybe lacking as much team abilities, Dark Knight should be reworked into something worthy of the "Dark Knight". The Point is why would the first answer be to remove everything like Sustain from tanks, It just makes every tank feel the same and we all know that's already a major issue with tank design as of current, I'm not saying we shouldn't have trade offs for higher sustain/mitigation ect. But this Idea of just removing everything about a tank and giving them nothing in place feels like we're just going to go over the same issues again and again.
I'm all for healers actually healing Fyi, hence why I'm against the hyper sustain of warrior or PLD's magic attack healing, I just don't think this "remove of sustain" solution is actually a solution that will fix healers, it will just make ruin more uniqueness about tanks.