The Tragedy about Manderville vs Brilliant Relics

The thing with Eureka and Borza weren't just useful for relic. Tbh I don't care much about the open word portion much, they're just Fate on steroid. But the Borza raid were insanely fun for me, I continued to play them in ShB even after I had gotten the relics I want.

It's interesting that Diadem failed twice. Eureka is very opinionated on how it went. Bozja was considered a failure by the devs. If we put Diadem and Bozja together in terms of failure by SE, Field Content has failed multiple times on their end.
Bozja's major boon which is often not talked about is how good it was for leveling.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

IBozja was considered a failure by the devs.

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Source please?

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

People complained ARR relic was to RNG.
People complained the Heavensward relic had too many objectives.
People complained Eureka was boring and grindy.
People complained Bozja forced you to do long instances with pointless actions

They were all engaging in different ways, but the playerbase complained, and so they were given what they wanted this time.

You can have a fun engaging relic, but the majority of players don't want it. They want fast and easy.

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1) ARR WAS too RNG grindy. Atma drop rates sucked, the books sucked. Both are actively loathed to this day 9 years later.
2) HW, certain steps did suck. Requiring 27000 poes for a single relic is insanity. Especially when the cap at that time was 1000 poes.
3) Eureak was grindy. The light grinds sucked and Pagos was the developers actively punishing us for not playing their "preferred" way in Anemos
4) Bozja was pointless because it was much more efficient to grind for your relic outside of the instance than inside of it due to Bozja Fate RNG vs 100% drop rate outside. Also, the proofs of mettle were largely irrelevant outside of the DPS ones and marginally the tank ones. Those two helped inside Bozja but the healing ones and tank ones were worthless inside the instances of DR and Castrum because 2 hits was an instant death. No amount of HP or healing changed that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

1) ARR WAS too RNG grindy. Atma drop rates sucked, the books sucked. Both are actively loathed to this day 9 years later.
2) HW, certain steps did suck. Requiring 27000 poes for a single relic is insanity.
3) Eureak was grindy. The light grinds sucked and Pagos was the developers actively punishing us for not playing their "preferred" way in Anemos
4) Bozja was pointless because it was much more efficient to grind for your relic outside of the instance than inside of it due to Bozja Fate RNG vs 100% drop rate outside. Also, the proofs of mettle were largely irrelevant outside of the DPS ones and marginally the tank ones. Those two helped inside Bozja but the healing ones and tank ones were worthless inside the instances of DR and Castrum because 2 hits was an instant death. No amount of HP or healing changed taht.

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Why is Bozja made pointless because of the relic being more efficient to do outside of Bozja, isn’t that the best case scenario for everyone including the people who whined they wanted a relic but didn’t want to do eureka

As for the valours I’m not really sure what the problem is there, they were totally optional and they required a long grind if you wanted them, the healing valours were probably the least useful but they still had their edge cases that made them worth getting, things like on 10/10/10 you can pretty effectively heal through profane because profane is only 70% down and with twice the healing output you really only suffer about 50% which is salvageable, healing valours also makes saviour a fantastic essence for support oriented tanks and DPS, hell you can hold agro as a tank on saviour with your stance off by sitting there and casting saviour cure 3 on 10/10/10, you generate near infinite agro that not even a stance tank can pull them off you

ARR I agree was too RNG with atma but I think the book steps were good in their time for keeping the endgame zones populated and keeping the dungeons involved, HW steps were a little excessive on patch but I do like the idea of a relic that grows alongside you over the course of a patch that strongly discourages grinding day 1 for it, eureka was eureka, pagos was a mess on launch, the current nerf is too extreme

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why is Bozja made pointless because of the relic being more efficient to do outside of Bozja, isn’t that the best case scenario for everyone including the people who whined they wanted a relic but didn’t want to do eureka

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This is kind of the problem with many people who post on forums (I'm not talking about you, talking about people similar to who you responded to). People like that see choices at 'illusions' because they believe everyone floats towards efficiency in a video game. Some people like to play that way but the critical point though is not everyone does. Bozja does offer decent exp as well as cosmetics, so some people see all of that as a win together while working towards a single overall goal. That's the whole point of choice, to cater to as many people as possible, especially when it comes down to something entirely cosmetic at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

1) ARR WAS too RNG grindy. Atma drop rates sucked, the books sucked. Both are actively loathed to this day 9 years later.
2) HW, certain steps did suck. Requiring 27000 poes for a single relic is insanity. Especially when the cap at that time was 1000 poes.
3) Eureak was grindy. The light grinds sucked and Pagos was the developers actively punishing us for not playing their "preferred" way in Anemos
4) Bozja was pointless because it was much more efficient to grind for your relic outside of the instance than inside of it due to Bozja Fate RNG vs 100% drop rate outside. Also, the proofs of mettle were largely irrelevant outside of the DPS ones and marginally the tank ones. Those two helped inside Bozja but the healing ones and tank ones were worthless inside the instances of DR and Castrum because 2 hits was an instant death. No amount of HP or healing changed that.

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Your bozja take shows you didn't play the content much. With proof of mettle and actions, it 100% makes a difference. I mean I used to tank DR as a dragoon all the time back when it was current content and we had no tank.

Also for the anima weapon, you do know there's other options at times other then poetics. And even then, the game gives you poetics like crazy. Generally I only ever hear new players complain that it's to much.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Your bozja take shows you didn't play the content much. With proof of mettle and actions, it 100% makes a difference. I mean I used to tank DR as a dragoon all the time back when it was current content and we had no tank.

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You could have done that day one with the right actions (the tank ones) and not much mettle.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

This is kind of the problem with many people who post on forums (I'm not talking about you, talking about people similar to who you responded to). People like that see choices at 'illusions' because they believe everyone floats towards efficiency in a video game. Some people like to play that way but the critical point though is not everyone does. Bozja does offer decent exp as well as cosmetics, so some people see all of that as a win together while working towards a single overall goal. That's the whole point of choice, to cater to as many people as possible, especially when it comes down to something entirely cosmetic at the end of the day.

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It's not much of a "choice" when one iteration gives you 100% of a drop, and the fates in Bozja were sub 20% (sub 10% on launch)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You could have done that day one with the right actions (the tank ones) and not much mettle.



It's not much of a "choice" when one iteration gives you 100% of a drop, and the fates in Bozja were sub 20% (sub 10% on launch)

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I mean still it doesn’t matter, I prioritised Bozja over my relic and I got the relic passively by doing other things, if you focus was the relic then the choice was clear, but relics have always been a thing you generally hey passively if you actively engage with the content, Bozja just was better because it gave you options if you truly hated Bozja

It really comes down to personal priorities.

At launch, the 3 colored memories & the ones after that were straight up more efficient to be farmed outside BSF. For players who wish to have relic but despise how Eureka handled its relics, those HW fates & Antitower were the safe haven to them. Not to mention when there’s also an overlapping reward that one can gain.. say, HW relics. In term of return, everything just worked against BSF itself at its inception. It’s not until they allowed those memories to drop from normals mobs within the zones that the gain rate somewhat evens out. Even more profitable in fact if you wish to sell the cluster loots/frags into MB as a side hustle while also grinding your relic, or if your cluster farm party is very good.

They did not do this in its inception, which was a bizarre decision.

Considering the timing was also when they expanded free trial up to patch 3.5, my wild guess was because they tried to fire up the activity of older zones for FT players to witness: “Wow this game is pretty alive! I think I’m really gonna sub, for real!”. From a marketing standpoint, at least. But I’m no expert, lol. :p

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

It really comes down to personal priorities.

At launch, the 3 colored memories & the ones after that were straight up more efficient to be farmed outside BSF. For players who wish to have relic but despise how Eureka handled its relics, those HW fates & Antitower were the safe haven to them. Not to mention when there’s also an overlapping reward that one can gain.. say, HW relics. In term of return, everything just worked against BSF itself at its inception. It’s not until they allowed those memories to drop from normals mobs within the zones that the gain rate somewhat evens out. Even more profitable in fact if you wish to sell the cluster loots/frags into MB as a side hustle while also grinding your relic, or if your cluster farm party is very good.

They did not do this in its inception, which was a bizarre decision.

Considering the timing was also when they expanded free trial up to patch 3.5, my wild guess was because they tried to fire up the activity of older zones for FT players to witness: “Wow this game is pretty alive! I think I’m really gonna sub, for real!”. From a marketing standpoint, at least. But I’m no expert, lol. :p

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Even then I don’t think Bozja being the worse option was actually bad because Bozja offered a multitude of other rewards

If you offered someone “HW fate grinding” or “earn experience on your 71-80 classes, get rare and expensive drops and progress the current relic zone with zero penalty” then who in their right mind would pick the HW fate grind unless they were trying to pair it with anima relics

The choices had to be biased to be balanced so to speak

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Even then I don’t think Bozja being the worse option was actually bad because Bozja offered a multitude of other rewards[...]

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The incentives to do the 'Bozja route' when that specific step was at its current patch were:

1. Memories from skirmishes (and CE IIRC), obviously. But not guaranteed.
2. Mettles, if you somehow lose them and want to re-cap them at R15.
3. Field notes, at which time they offered nothing but an achievement for completing all of it. (No Al-iklil yet back then!)
4. Tiny coin gains (1-3 per skirmish) from skirmish zerging, not including the ones you can trade with dupe field notes.
5. Lockboxes that gives more prisms 8 out of 10 times on top of general purpose dyes, old random crafted glams that quickly crashes the market price, and on rarest occasion gives you mounts.
6. Quick experience gain for lv71-80 jobs.

Meanwhile 'HW FATEs zerging' route offered:

1. Memories but guaranteed (???) per FATE.
2. Can be BLU-cheesed for faster completion rate.
3. Overlaps with HW Relic's starting quest.

For players who had purely the interest for relic completion, it becomes clear which one would attract them more. Doubly so if they were somebody like myself who already lv-capped all jobs (or does not bother to) at its inception. Or they have to really hate Field Contents to avoid them. I'm also guilty of using HW FATEs for these reason, and only come back into the zone after I've cleared my priorities. A shame the fix did not get implemented faster.

I just never understood why they never made it BSF Route > External Route from very beginning. :confused: Outside Loathsome Memories in its inception, every subsequent steps did not have this issue. I'd just chalk it up that they learned from their mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You could have done that day one with the right actions (the tank ones) and not much mettle.

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You could at that point but you had to rely on healers to shield you for the tank buster on the first boss otherwise you die (even with tank actions).
Also, if you used the pure tank actions as a dragoon tank, you wouldn't be able to generate enough DPS to keep aggro. Pure essence of the duelist was actually the way to go but even with that you could barely take 1 tank buster. That's where the proof of mettle was useful for sure. Niche yes, but still useful where there's no guarantee of a good party comp.

With how easy it is to get EW's relics, I'm curious as to where the final versions of the relics are going to stand in terms of power and itemization. (*´∀｀).。o○( ? )
In the past, the last tiers of relics were on par with the last tier of savage weapons in terms of iLevel and damage, with relics having customizable substats.
I can't really see them doing that with EW's relics, seeing as how you can get them without even actively trying. ( ´△｀)
Can we even say they'd should justifiably be on par with the augmented tome weapons? Those require you to do more to get, requiring Solvent which you have to: A) Do Savage, B) Do the three 24-man raids, and/or C) Hunts.
Will they be on par with the upcoming trial's weapons like the Majestic Manderville weapons are with the Voidcast weapons from Golbez EX?
Not to mention that we're supposedly going to be getting gear from the upcoming Variant/Criterion dungeons in 6.51.
They're in dangerous territory because if the relics are too easy to get and powerful, why should we bother with any of these other rewards? (；๏д๏)

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

With how easy it is to get EW's relics, I'm curious as to where the final versions of the relics are going to stand in terms of power and itemization. (*´∀｀).。o○( ? )
In the past, the last tiers of relics were on par with the last tier of savage weapons in terms of iLevel and damage, with relics having customizable substats.
I can't really see them doing that with EW's relics, seeing as how you can get them without even actively trying. ( ´△｀)
Can we even say they'd should justifiably be on par with the augmented tome weapons? Those require you to do more to get, requiring Solvent which you have to: A) Do Savage, B) Do the three 24-man raids, and/or C) Hunts.
Will they be on par with the upcoming trial's weapons like the Majestic Manderville weapons are with the Voidcast weapons from Golbez EX?
Not to mention that we're supposedly going to be getting gear from the upcoming Variant/Criterion dungeons in 6.51.
They're in dangerous territory because if the relics are too easy to get and powerful, why should we bother with any of these other rewards? (；๏д๏)

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They are going to be the BIS in 6.55, they always are, square doesn’t see “them being too easy” as a reason to make them weaker, they will stick to their rigid schedule and design as they always do

The relics will be BIS

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

With how easy it is to get EW's relics, I'm curious as to where the final versions of the relics are going to stand in terms of power and itemization. (*´∀｀).。o○( ? )
In the past, the last tiers of relics were on par with the last tier of savage weapons in terms of iLevel and damage, with relics having customizable substats.
I can't really see them doing that with EW's relics, seeing as how you can get them without even actively trying. ( ´△｀)
Can we even say they'd should justifiably be on par with the augmented tome weapons? Those require you to do more to get, requiring Solvent which you have to: A) Do Savage, B) Do the three 24-man raids, and/or C) Hunts.
Will they be on par with the upcoming trial's weapons like the Majestic Manderville weapons are with the Voidcast weapons from Golbez EX?
Not to mention that we're supposedly going to be getting gear from the upcoming Variant/Criterion dungeons in 6.51.
They're in dangerous territory because if the relics are too easy to get and powerful, why should we bother with any of these other rewards? (；๏д๏)

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What do you mean? it should be easy to get BiS now and it should be open to casuals to catch up in ilvl, this is the catchup patch where casuals are able to easily catch up in gear to the savage raiders before the next expansion.
What content is there exactly that would necessitate keeping casual players at a low item level compared to raiders?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

What content is there exactly that would necessitate keeping casual players at a low item level compared to raiders?

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On the flip side, I don't really see why 'casual players' would even need to attain a bis-comparable item level. Casual duties have a low ilevel requirement, and are generally actually tuned to a difficulty below the actual requirement. The first dungeon of a new expansion is like 30 item levels below the previous expansions BiS.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

With how easy it is to get EW's relics, I'm curious as to where the final versions of the relics are going to stand in terms of power and itemization. (*´∀｀).。o○( ? )
In the past, the last tiers of relics were on par with the last tier of savage weapons in terms of iLevel and damage, with relics having customizable substats.
I can't really see them doing that with EW's relics, seeing as how you can get them without even actively trying. ( ´△｀)
Can we even say they'd should justifiably be on par with the augmented tome weapons? Those require you to do more to get, requiring Solvent which you have to: A) Do Savage, B) Do the three 24-man raids, and/or C) Hunts.
Will they be on par with the upcoming trial's weapons like the Majestic Manderville weapons are with the Voidcast weapons from Golbez EX?
Not to mention that we're supposedly going to be getting gear from the upcoming Variant/Criterion dungeons in 6.51.
They're in dangerous territory because if the relics are too easy to get and powerful, why should we bother with any of these other rewards? (；๏д๏)

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On the contrary I fully forsee the relics being on par with savage weapons. Draw whatever conclusions you will in regards to the value of effort invested into the higher difficulty content the game has to offer.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

On the flip side, I don't really see why 'casual players' would even need to attain a bis-comparable item level. Casual duties have a low ilevel requirement, and are generally actually tuned to a difficulty below the actual requirement. The first dungeon of a new expansion is like 30 item levels below the previous expansions BiS.

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It's not the casual players wanting BiS essentially for free, it's the lazy entitled people that think everything in the world they want should just be given to them without any effort on their part just because they exist or use a service.

You know... like those people that demand free cellphones or upgrades just because they choose to use a carrier. Those people demanding something ridiculous at a bank teller just because they have an account at that bank. Demanding the store workers carry their groceries out to their car for them because they chose to shop at that store. Demanding law enforcement arrest someone they don't like that did nothing wrong just because they supposedly pay taxes. And so on...

In this case it's basically demanding to have the best things in the game handed to them because they apparently choose pay a subscription to a game they have no desire to actually play...