What is Midcore? Why does it matter?

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Yeah, I figured..

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Not sure what that has to do with anything.



Have you completed bozja? Do you have all the big fish? Have you done potd or hoh to 200 and 100 respectively?


Do you have multiple arr relics? All of the Heavensward ones?

50-100 in PotD already are casual floors. That was part of what gave it longevity. First it was having just 1 to 50 available. Then the other half came out with 50 more floors to keep people busy.

It's above 100 that requires a fixed party but IIRC the party has to start at 50.

I don't really know how they could make a roulette, though. Whole idea behind them is progressing one set of floors at a time and losing your progress if you fail and a roulette would let someone skip around in floors instead of doing that build up. Though it would be nice for being able to see those sets of floors nobody is ever running.

I see Midcore as being the stepping stone between Normal difficulty and Hard difficulty . It needs to be the testing ground for a player to decide if advancing into Hard content is right for them, and provide some challenge for those who want greater than Normal difficulty but may not be able to commit to a group for Hard difficulty progression.

Normal - should be MSQ dungeons and trials. That's content everyone is intended to be able to experience.

Midcore - normal raids/EX trials. Add some more bite to the normal raids. They are the best training ground for Savage since they share some of the same mechanics already. If worried about players being able to see the raid story, add solo duties where the raid bosses would be with tomestones for rewards but no gear. Players can choose if they want to go the solo route or the raid route. Alliance raids can always be the "normal" raid for everyone to experience.

Hard - Savage

Ultra-hard - Ultimate

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I did every bozja relic. It was very casual.

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That's where you problem is. You really think casual players have done all the relics. Even one? Hell no. If that's your idea of a casual player, you're wrong.

Casual, midcore and hardcore content are short term for "content for casual players, midcore players and hardcore players". It sure is easy enough content, but that doesn't make it casual. I think midcore content is not only about difficulty, but also accessibility and time commitment asked. It's the way you play the content that determine what it is. I like the the bozja example : running it once for the storyline is casual content, running it to get all the field notes, or working or your relic is midcore content.

Midcore would tends to be routine. This is what separates them from casuals. Players in this category would:
Cap tomestomes for the week
Stay current in the story
Do roulette until capped or daily
Some players do Extreme for gear/ mounts

Once you dedicate enter content the involves studying, planning, and communication with progression track that scales like climbing a mountain. The point where the more energy you give makes it harder and more painful to give up because there is no guarantee you will ever clear. Then you have entered hardcore.

Midcore would tends to be routine. This is what separates them from casuals. Players in this category would:
Cap tomestomes for the week
Stay current in the story
Do roulette until capped or daily
Stay current on alliance raids (maybe weekly)
Stay current on normal raids
Some players do Extreme for gear/ mounts

Once you dedicate enter content that involves studying, planning, and communication with progression track that scales like climbing a mountain. The point where the more energy you give makes it harder and more painful to give up because there is no guarantee you will ever clear. Then you have entered hardcore.

ITT: Nobody wants to admit the content they don't do can still be engaging and challenging for others. And most are unwilling to look at the broader audience, only themselves.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I do in fact think they were engaging with you in good faith. I can see how you interpret them as condescending, but I disagree greatly with that interpretation. The meme responses however....

It's all a matter of perspective really. Ask someone who does Ultimates what mid is and they will probably say Extreme. Ask someone who never does anything beyond normal raids what Hard is and they will tell you Extremes. I actually really like the food level analogy we got a few pages back. I'll probably start using that myself especially because it defines an experience as opposed to a person, which is more likely to avoid the interpretation as being an attack.

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That's fair - I was a bit harsh. I guess I tend to see things a little differently when I know the posters are dirty baiters. lol

I think the Food example is good, I'd probably put myself at Cafe - Restaurant level. Can I get a Cafe with Fine Dining quality food though? I'm not interested in microwaved quiche, and I don't want to sit down for 2 hours when I just want to eat a quarter of a steak at a time.

I think my needs are starting to mostly become more a question of design flexibility, and less of a difficulty issue. If you can throw me in content that's the absolute most difficult bullshit you can, but don't require body checks - I would LOVE to run against that wall over and over. It lets me dip my toes in without forcing the rest of the group to suffer at my expense, potentially causing some social issues along the way. (And boy does XIV have some of them social issues)

I'm also feeling very attacked with all of these "Casuals" being thrown around like XIV only has 2 pieces of content that ever qualifies for Mid-Hard to them. So I drew up a scale. I won't fill it in, because I'm an incapable Casual - But if anyone wants to give it a shot, go for it. I'm actually curious how other people would scale content. lol



https://i.imgur.com/BVhFhpj.png

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Originally Posted by R041

I think my needs are starting to mostly become more a question of design flexibility, and less of a difficulty issue. If you can throw me in content that's the absolute most difficult bullshit you can, but don't require body checks - I would LOVE to run against that wall over and over. It lets me dip my toes in without forcing the rest of the group to suffer at my expense, potentially causing some social issues along the way. (And boy does XIV have some of them social issues)

I'm also feeling very attacked with all of these "Casuals" being thrown around like XIV only has 2 pieces of content that ever qualifies for Mid-Hard to them.

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I can really only think of a few pieces of content where you can run solo and have some sort of difficulty attached to it, and that's all deep dungeons. Running deep dungeons solo has been a pretty fun experience but if I were to refer to your list later, the difficulty scaling on the later floors(150-200 potd, 70-100 on everything else) would be pushing the echelons of "hardcore" gaming, because you need to be prepared with pomanders, know the mob abilities, boss abilities etc etc along with spending significant amount of time on each set of 10 floors. Other content I can think of that might qualify would be... not that much honestly, solo queueing for older extremes to see if you can clear it? BLU Carnivale maybe without looking at guides. If they allowed criterion dungeons to be soloed, I'd be all over that, I think the content itself is nice but I hate being pigeonholed into healer because no one else wants to play it. Oh I suppose duels in bozja and zadnor but that requires quite a bit of preparation and rng to get into(let's not talk about how many times I got passed over before they introduced the fame counter).

Casuals are content with normal and extreme difficulties.

Midcore are those building up to Savages. Extremes aren't a challenge for them anymore.

The Hardcore are those that beat the Savages and doing or trying to do Ultimates.

That's for just dungeon/raid/trial content.

Crafters are an entirely different beast when it comes to this. Then there are the House owners and the RPers.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Casuals are content with normal and extreme difficulties.

Midcore are those building up to Savages. Extremes aren't a challenge for them anymore.

The Hardcore are those that beat the Savages and doing or trying to do Ultimates.

That's for just dungeon/raid/trial content.

Crafters are an entirely different beast when it comes to this. Then there are the House owners and the RPers.

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I wouldn't say casuals do Extremes. Extremes as "casual" shows probably you are harder core and view these as super easy for the people who play sporatically and aren't that invested in the game, or just like chill content.

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Originally Posted by Cyanamists

I can really only think of a few pieces of content where you can run solo and have some sort of difficulty attached to it, and that's all deep dungeons. Running deep dungeons solo has been a pretty fun experience but if I were to refer to your list later, the difficulty scaling on the later floors(150-200 potd, 70-100 on everything else) would be pushing the echelons of "hardcore" gaming, because you need to be prepared with pomanders, know the mob abilities, boss abilities etc etc along with spending significant amount of time on each set of 10 floors. Other content I can think of that might qualify would be... not that much honestly, solo queueing for older extremes to see if you can clear it? BLU Carnivale maybe without looking at guides. If they allowed criterion dungeons to be soloed, I'd be all over that, I think the content itself is nice but I hate being pigeonholed into healer because no one else wants to play it. Oh I suppose duels in bozja and zadnor but that requires quite a bit of preparation and rng to get into(let's not talk about how many times I got passed over before they introduced the fame counter).

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That's the problem - It's not that I always want to be solo, or solo at all. I just want the flexibility to be with people, but not force them to rely on me for my weekly constraints. That's not even a per minute thing really, it's mostly that I have to PUG, so anything requiring a dedicated group gets very fuzzy. Most things you can PUG/Duty Finder in XIV right now are so easy that nobody even wants to talk, because they know they're just going about their casual day. So I'm also asking for more random peer to peer engagement through difficulty.


This is roughly what I'm asking for:

- Less constrained (stop group locking) POTD hard floors
- Min iLvl Synced/harder Wondrous Tails that span more content overall
- Critical Engagements in open world
- Don't cycle out Unreal (Isn't this FOMO?)
- Difficulty Modifiers for Dungeons that actually change rewards.

Wondrous Tails without any form of required Sync just diminishes it so significantly, it's really frustrating.

I also think a Min iLvl Dungeon Boss Rush would be really fun, take a series from a couple dungeons and run them back to back. I genuinely think we just need to get rid of hallway trash entirely at this point though. lol

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Have you completed bozja? Do you have all the big fish?

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See... the fact that you're comparing those two in the same sentence tells me that you really have no idea what midcore means to the people who want that kind of content.

As for your questions: Yeah, I have completed Bozja and Eureka. I don't have all the big fish, and I've got to floor 70 in HoH but that's about it, since going higher as a SCH is a bit on the... ehem, hardcore side of things. I do have a bunch of Animas, some of them made when the content was current, but not all of them as they, well... require a lot of investment and time. And I'm sorry, but the fact that you're judging Eureka as a whole without even engaging with the content is making it hard to take you seriously and further cements the fact that you have no idea what a midcore player actually wants. So yeah, I figured you wouldn't even have your Elemental Armor, and I was right.

It's a bit sad that you advocate for less content, as you seem to think that a single EX and a fight or two of Savage every four months are enough for midcore players, even though you've clearly demonstrated you don't even know what that kind of player actually wants.

Either way, I'm out. Take care.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I wouldn't say casuals do Extremes. Extremes as "casual" shows probably you are harder core and view these as super easy for the people who play sporatically and aren't that invested in the game, or just like chill content.

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Anybody can clear Extreme, when I did a tiny bit of raiding and content a few months back, I was done with the ex in about an hour or so, just by doing PF

Extreme isnt hard, it's casual content at its best, even ultimates and savage can be PF'd, technically making them midcore content and not hardcore content, there is no time constraint, no time schedule to respect, log in, jump into PF and do savage/ultimate

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

See... the fact that you're comparing those two in the same sentence tells me that you really have no idea what midcore means to the people who want that kind of content.

As for your questions: Yeah, I have completed Bozja and Eureka. I don't have all the big fish, and I've got to floor 70 in HoH but that's about it, since going higher as a SCH is a bit on the... ehem, hardcore side of things. I do have a bunch of Animas, some of them made when the content was current, but not all of them as they, well... require a lot of investment and time. And I'm sorry, but the fact that you're judging Eureka as a whole without even engaging with the content is making it hard to take you seriously and further cements the fact that you have no idea what a midcore player actually wants. So yeah, I figured you wouldn't even have your Elemental Armor, and I was right.

It's a bit sad that you advocate for less content, as you seem to think that a single EX and a fight or two of Savage every four months are enough for midcore players, even though you've clearly demonstrated you don't even know what that kind of player actually wants.

Either way, I'm out. Take care.

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I said I didn't complete the relic. I've been all the way to hydatos. I just never found the content engaging.





All these definitions are are about time investments. You have to set a limiter on the period though, or it becomes hazy.



For me, the limiter is weekly. How often do you do x content per week?



Relics are casual, you don't need to spend tons of time per week to get them all.



EX fights don't take much time either. They can be done casually.



I'm what I consider a midcore savage player. I spend roughly 7 hours a week in savage. No more. Hardcore players do twice that a day the first week of savage.



I don't advocate for less content. I'm just presenting that you have more available content than you think you do.

Gonna guess you mean the Zepla video sooo yeah, the lack of a Bozja/Eureka zone in EW was very noticeable. Part of the reason I liked those zones was it provided content that wasn't just braindead dungeons, a few fights were on par with EX with a couple of Bozja/Zadnor duels and DRS being comparable to the weakest Savage fights. But more importantly for me I like having a zone where it feels like an MMO outside of Limsa. Outside of hunt trains when's the last time you saw a massive group of people in Garlemald? Maybe the launch month? I just like having a zone where you see people farming mobs, doing CE's and watching people duel. You don't get that in Garlemald or in Limsa...you get RP venue spam....yay.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I wouldn't say casuals do Extremes. Extremes as "casual" shows probably you are harder core and view these as super easy for the people who play sporatically and aren't that invested in the game, or just like chill content.

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Yeah I agree on this. Casuals don't tend to do things that live in PF. And I need to go back and do the previous ones this expansion but Golbez with his body checks definitely isn't something that more casual players are going to be tackling.

I think part of the issue is the idea that it's just time or commitment that determines the type of content something is. You can PF EX, Savage, and even some early Ultimates now I think I've seen in PF. But those pieces of content aren't casual just because they're possible with a random group in PF because there is still prep work and coordination required to be successful at them. I do think we tend to judge content level based on where we are ourselves and our own perceptions of what we are, too. I'm doing Savage this tier and having a blast but it's been very difficult to not still think of myself as casually minded because what I want most of all out of content is being able to engage with it when I want to and not feeling it's something I have to do or is a chore I need to get through.

IMHO Arguing about what defines Midcore vs Casual or Hardcore is kind of missing the issue here.

The big problem is there isn't really any kind of consistent step up group combat content to build a new player up into Extremes and beyond. Roulette dungeons, alliance and normal modes are a face roll with next to 0 personal responsibility. Flail about on the floor as much as you want, it won't matter outside of potentially making things slower.

Suddenly you hit Extremes where enrages are a thing, personal responsibility is a thing and the need to communicate.... is also a thing. All of these pressure points all land at once.

SE have done better here. In 2.0, dungeons taught you personal responsibility, they taught you about enrages and they taught the need to communicate but most importantly, they spread these lessons out across multiple bosses and dungeons.

IMHO Alliance raids should reward players for a basic level of contribution. It doesn't have to be orange logs for loot. Just enough of a nudge to let players know what is an acceptable standard of play and what isn't. This could be something like a potency per second ranking at the end of the instance to remove gear from the equation and the reward could be as little as a simple S-F style tier ranking or as much as getting drop token towards an armor piece perhaps with more being granted for better performances? I don't think the level of the reward matters, what's important is letting players know what the game is going to expect of them as they progress through the tiers of endgame content so they are better prepared as they step up to Extremes etc.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

IMHO Arguing about what defines Midcore vs Casual or Hardcore is kind of missing the issue here.

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It is sort of relevant because it is actually fair to say that extremes are pretty midcore and many people do them that wouldn't do savage.

The problem is when someone says they are not doing any "high-end" content, either due to time or anxiety, and are left with practically nothing else to do. The problem is also when a raider wants to relax and not do something as serious or organized as a raid, but that isn't as boring and samey as the same expert roulette dungeon for months.

Having something that transitions people from the normal content to high-end content would be good and all, but it's not even all about getting them to do the high-end content, because some people just want normal content that requires more effort and time and teamwork, but that isn't asking you to go and form a static or suffer PF wiping to the same mechanic for months when you can get through it easily. What they achieved with Eureka and Bozja was something that fit that pretty well and it made the expansions feel alive, unlike where we are now where we can solo a lot of the EW content and also be done with it pretty fast.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It is sort of relevant because it is actually fair to say that extremes are pretty midcore and many people do them that wouldn't do savage.

The problem is when someone says they are not doing any "high-end" content, either due to time or anxiety, and are left with practically nothing else to do. The problem is also when a raider wants to relax and not do something as serious or organized as a raid, but that isn't as boring and samey as the same expert roulette dungeon for months.

Having something that transitions people from the normal content to high-end content would be good and all, but it's not even all about getting them to do the high-end content, because some people just want normal content that requires more effort and time and teamwork, but that isn't asking you to go and form a static or suffer PF wiping to the same mechanic for months when you can get through it easily. What they achieved with Eureka and Bozja was something that fit that pretty well and it made the expansions feel alive, unlike where we are now where we can solo a lot of the EW content and also be done with it pretty fast.

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Another good take - definitely need some transition content between being able to essentially be carried by competent players and your presence not even mattering in all the normal-level content, and content where your personal accountability and skill needs to be at a certain level - while at the same time not being so challenging that people can't figure it out within a couple hours and succeed in a pug.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

<snip>

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Dropping the Bozja ball this expansion was a mistake for sure =(

Hopefully the positivity in the recent Famitsu interview results in us getting one for 7.x++

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Casuals are content with normal and extreme difficulties.

Midcore are those building up to Savages. Extremes aren't a challenge for them anymore.

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Wut? o.O

"casuals" and "extremes"?

I think this is an example of someone being far enough out of the mainstream that they think the mainstream is more like them than it is.

Extremes are midcore content, and (depending on who you ask) on the higher end of midcore. No Savages are midcore aside from some of the 1/5/9 entry bosses for a tier. Generally speaking, casuals don't touch Extremes at all.

This is kind of like hearing a person who makes $500,000 a year commenting how everyone makes and spends at least $200,000 a year, not realizing the vast majority of the public doesn't even make six figures, and the poor sometimes don't even make 5. (There are tons of people that legitimately make less than $10k a year).

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

IMHO Alliance raids should reward players for a basic level of contribution. It doesn't have to be orange logs for loot. Just enough of a nudge to let players know what is an acceptable standard of play and what isn't. This could be something like a potency per second ranking at the end of the instance to remove gear from the equation and the reward could be as little as a simple S-F style tier ranking or as much as getting drop token towards an armor piece perhaps with more being granted for better performances? I don't think the level of the reward matters, what's important is letting players know what the game is going to expect of them as they progress through the tiers of endgame content so they are better prepared as they step up to Extremes etc.

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I don't see this ever happening because SE expects more experienced players are going to help the less experienced players. This runs counter to that idea. They let their encounter design determine any standard of play that they want to establish. Any other standards are community driven and I find it unlikely they're going to start implementing in-game recognition of that, especially because these standards deviate widely depending on the segment of the playerbase being considered.

Rightly or wrongly I just considee a midcore player to be a casual player who occasionally engages with the harder content associated with hardcore players.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

See... the fact that you're comparing those two in the same sentence tells me that you really have no idea what midcore means to the people who want that kind of content.

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The cracks are starting to show.. I even think Mr. Happy might be out of touch with what Medium / Midcore content actually looks like in an MMO - And what people may want.

I think Savage is used by Raiders to depict Midcore, sometimes even out of spite. But I accept their definition of EX and first tier as being a form of Midcore - So least we can agree there's not enough out there.

But I think it's really weird for people to consider Eureka and Bozja as Casual, when we all admit that only a about a quarter of the community has even managed to get through parts of it, whether out of some form of difficulty, or general frustration of the grind itself.

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Originally Posted by R041

The cracks are starting to show.. I even think Mr. Happy might be out of touch with what Medium / Midcore content actually looks like in an MMO - And what people may want.

I think Savage is used by Raiders to depict Midcore, sometimes even out of spite. But I accept their definition of EX and first tier as being a form of Midcore - So least we can agree there's not enough out there.

But I think it's really weird for people to consider Eureka and Bozja as Casual, when we all admit that only a about a quarter of the community has even managed to get through parts of it, whether out of some form of difficulty, or general frustration of the grind itself.

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Probably because there's a real distinction between a casual/midcore/hardcore player and casual/midcore/hardcore content. And that's not even getting into time based distinctions (how long do you play the game for, log in daily for several hours to once a week/fortnight).
If EX is midcore, I don't know what to say. Maybe some of them, maybe they used to be. EXs that require specific timed movement that results in party wipes (not just individual player deaths) if even just one person messes up, is not what I would call midcore content. But a hardcore player, used to savage and doing EX on release, will look at that and go: "yea, its easy, what's the problem?".

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Probably because there's a real distinction between a casual/midcore/hardcore player and casual/midcore/hardcore content. And that's not even getting into time based distinctions (how long do you play the game for, log in daily for several hours to once a week/fortnight).
If EX is midcore, I don't know what to say. Maybe some of them, maybe they used to be. EXs that require specific timed movement that results in party wipes (not just individual player deaths) if even just one person messes up, is not what I would call midcore content. But a hardcore player, used to savage and doing EX on release, will look at that and go: "yea, its easy, what's the problem?".

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The problem is "Casual" doesn't mean bad. it just means "doesn't play as much".


You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.


This has always been a problem in XIV for some reason. People use casual for "easy" and not time invested.

I think this may be influenced by when you first started playing. In ARR, everyone did everything. If you wanted to experience the Coil storyline, you did the Coil fights. So everyone and their chocobo did them, regardless of whether they were 'casual' or 'hardcore'. If you struggled with a fight, your friends helped you out at the end of the tier. The distinctions in playstyle came from how quickly you progressed through content, not based off whether you even tried them in the first place.

While Gordias may have put some people off of raiding, every tier released from Creator on has been very clearable on release for the average player, if you're willing to spend some time learning. It might take you a couple of days or six months, but you can get through it if you stick with it. I just think that rebranding the content as 'Savage' probably put some of the newer iterations of players off even trying at all, though, despite it being incredibly accessible. You do have to get over your fear of wiping groups though. Absolutely everyone will cause wipes. Just learn something new from each one.

I don't think that the statement that 'Extreme/Savage are aimed at the midcore playerbase' is intended to give offense. It's a statement of fact - pretty much anyone can work through it, given enough time. If you're not even getting your feet wet, how do you know how difficult it is to swim? What's being described is not even 'casual', it's just flat out non-participatory.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem is "Casual" doesn't mean bad. it just means "doesn't play as much".


You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.


This has always been a problem in XIV for some reason. People use casual for "easy" and not time invested.

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No, I wouldn't necessarily say it's bad either. But I do think there is a distinction between the player and the content and both can be and are different levels.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think that the statement that 'Extreme/Savage are aimed at the midcore playerbase' is intended to give offense. It's a statement of fact - pretty much anyone can work through it, given enough time. If you're not even getting your feet wet, how do you know how difficult it is to swim? What's being described is not even 'casual', it's just flat out non-participatory.

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I've given up on clearing GolbEx for the time being. I spent several weeks in it and could never find a party where at LEAST 3-4 people didn't die during Gales 2. It took about 3 weeks before I consistently got PF groups that could clear the first pushback well, and people would still mess up from time to time, causing a wipe. Gales 2 clears, even now, are mostly "a healer survived and used LB3", which only works...until Gales 3 hits.

I've just given up. Note I've cleared most Extremes ON PATCH (often within the first few weeks) since 5.0, and the ones I didn't, shortly after (usually due to busy life stuff since I was in the military for part of that time). This is the first Extreme in 4 years that I've just decided not to bother with after about two months of trying to find a functional PF group that could clear 5 body checks in a single fight and not finding one able to do so.

No, that's not midcore. That's hardcore. And it's not "non-participatory". I can't do two healer LB3s in a row to make up for party mistakes (and that's when I'm NOT the healer paired with someone mucking up the mechanics consistently enough I get one-shot by being the only person in my 2 man circle because my partner died to gales AGAIN and I die through absolutely no fault of my own and have NO WAY TO CORRECT FOR THIS no matter how skilled I am at my Job or the game).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, that's not midcore. That's hardcore. And it's not "non-participatory". I can't do two healer LB3s in a row to make up for party mistakes (and that's when I'm NOT the healer paired with someone mucking up the mechanics consistently enough I get one-shot by being the only person in my 2 man circle because my partner died to gales AGAIN and I die through absolutely no fault of my own and have NO WAY TO CORRECT FOR THIS no matter how skilled I am at my Job or the game).

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Agree completely

If you know the mechanics and are clear ready, then it's not really a fight difficulty issue. You won't clear if you're consistently playing with people behind your progression point. Either get a group of friends together and clear it, or be upfront and strict about your goals in PF and make revisions to your group as needed.

All PF content is paradoxically easier the earlier that you do it (i.e. the first couple of days will generally have you be done in a couple of lockouts.) If you want to be time efficient, it's always easier to invest your time in upfront than later on, especially when there's no 'gearing' to be had. Try this with the 6.5 Extreme when it gets released. You'll be amazed at how much easier it is.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.

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https://i.imgur.com/NrujPgl.gif

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem is "Casual" doesn't mean bad. it just means "doesn't play as much".


You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.


This has always been a problem in XIV for some reason. People use casual for "easy" and not time invested.

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https://tallypress.com/wp-content/up...-sense-gif.gif

Personally any content below Ultimates for me is midcore, and even some of the legacy ults like uwu/ucob are still midcore.

When you have limmited time to play games:
it's your available play time that decides what you can do or cant do..

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you know the mechanics and are clear ready, then it's not really a fight difficulty issue. You won't clear if you're consistently playing with people behind your progression point. Either get a group of friends together and clear it, or be upfront and strict about your goals in PF and make revisions to your group as needed.

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And that's the dividing line between midcore and hardcore: Group formation.

Hardcore content requires coordinated groups of highly skilled players. Midcore content does not.

That's why GolbEx is hardcore content, not midcore content.

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EDIT:

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Originally Posted by GaiaBell

golbez is midcore content because it's just a slight step up from normal content

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Good god...

Well, this is a great example of what out of touch looks like, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

A lot of Coil was easier than a lot of normal fights today. It was easy to get started in Coil. I think people have been sleeping on how much more difficult the game has become. Groups and Link Shells just fell on your lap if you could press buttons and commit to a schedule, even if it's 2 hours on saturday and sunday... but even Coil had its own gatekeeping, Ceruleum Processing Plant was super lonely and sad compared to Wineport.

In HW, fflogs became a thing, cross world PF became a thing and killed the desire to form FCs and Link Shells, people didn't stay on groups that showed promise, people starting asking for logs and shit, getting statics was way harder, groups just didn't form organically like in ARR. Navigating the current hardcore community is quite exhausting.

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Yeah, people forget how much things have changed. It's like people in WoW forgetting that "Molten Snore" was called that for a reason. Boss mechanics are FAR more complex and punishing now than they used to be. There's no rational argument that 1st Turn of Coils 1 was harder than even P1S, with P1S being called "easy" by current Savage standards.

And, as you say, parsers didn't even exist in ARR/Coils, and weren't demanded for entering a Static to fight.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think this may be influenced by when you first started playing. In ARR, everyone did everything. If you wanted to experience the Coil storyline, you did the Coil fights. So everyone and their chocobo did them, regardless of whether they were 'casual' or 'hardcore'. If you struggled with a fight, your friends helped you out at the end of the tier. The distinctions in playstyle came from how quickly you progressed through content, not based off whether you even tried them in the first place.

While Gordias may have put some people off of raiding, every tier released from Creator on has been very clearable on release for the average player, if you're willing to spend some time learning. It might take you a couple of days or six months, but you can get through it if you stick with it. I just think that rebranding the content as 'Savage' probably put some of the newer iterations of players off even trying at all, though, despite it being incredibly accessible. You do have to get over your fear of wiping groups though. Absolutely everyone will cause wipes. Just learn something new from each one.

I don't think that the statement that 'Extreme/Savage are aimed at the midcore playerbase' is intended to give offense. It's a statement of fact - pretty much anyone can work through it, given enough time. If you're not even getting your feet wet, how do you know how difficult it is to swim? What's being described is not even 'casual', it's just flat out non-participatory.

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A lot of Coil was easier than a lot of normal fights today. It was easy to get started in Coil. I think people have been sleeping on how much more difficult the game has become. Groups and Link Shells just fell on your lap if you could press buttons and commit to a schedule, even if it's 2 hours on saturday and sunday... but even Coil had its own gatekeeping, Ceruleum Processing Plant was super lonely and sad compared to Wineport.

In HW, fflogs became a thing, cross world PF became a thing and killed the desire to form FCs and Link Shells, people didn't stay on groups that showed promise, people starting asking for logs and shit, getting statics was way harder, groups just didn't form organically like in ARR. Navigating the current hardcore community is quite exhausting.

golbez is midcore content because it's just a slight step up from normal content

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ririta

A lot of Coil was easier than a lot of normal fights today. It was easy to get started in Coil. I think people have been sleeping on how much more difficult the game has become. Groups and Link Shells just fell on your lap if you could press buttons and commit to a schedule, even if it's 2 hours on saturday and sunday... but even Coil had its own gatekeeping, Ceruleum Processing Plant was super lonely and sad compared to Wineport.

In HW, fflogs became a thing, cross world PF became a thing and killed the desire to form FCs and Link Shells, people didn't stay on groups that showed promise, people starting asking for logs and shit, getting statics was way harder, groups just didn't form organically like in ARR. Navigating the current hardcore community is quite exhausting.

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Which coil fights were easier than current normals (T3 doesn’t count)

1 was around an easy extreme, 2 got gear cheesed but used to be around a mid extreme it only for allagen Rot and it’s tight enrage, 4 was kinda a joke, 5 was a full savage fight, 6 besides leaf storm being cheesed was a regular savage, 7 was evil, 8 was a normal savage, 9 was a difficult savage, 10 was very hard for a first turn savage, 11 was a normal savage, 12 was a control fight so something incredibly rare these days, 13 was a regular savage

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And that's the dividing line between midcore and hardcore: Group formation.

Hardcore content requires coordinated groups of highly skilled players. Midcore content does not.

That's why GolbEx is hardcore content, not midcore content.

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So this is the problem that a lot of people on this thread are trying to hash out, because everyone will have a biased outlook on what their hard/mid "core" content looks like. If I were to take 7 of my friends and set a schedule to do hunts every, say 16 hours and we do all of them together, does that make us a hardcore static? Hunts are notably just casual content because they're zerged down within 60 seconds by large groups, but if it's only a full party doing it, does it then become hardcore content? I'm not sure if I'm explaining my analogy correctly so sorry about that but I guess the main point is the midcore content does not and has never required highly skilled players, it requires a player or players who have a general grasp of their jobs and the game and asks them to put in the effort for a reward.

Golbez, while arguably one of the harder EX trials this expansion, still falls in line with midcore content, I believe. Most mechanics happen faster than normal or paired together(it actually feels like they got rid of a mechanic or adds phase at the first 2 minutes because he just sits there and does nothing for so long), and the main body checks for the fight are towers + knockback and room wide dodges into enumeration pairs, which has been drilled plenty into people by now, or something very similar.

Compared to HW, pf has been abundant and the general player base has gotten better at the game(take with a grain of salt), that can be seen by generally increased clear rates on savage fights across each expansion. If anything, party finder has made raiding more accessible to bordering midcore content just because it is "jump in and out", point being is that there still needs to be a "jump in" portion.