Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

Everything you said about MNK has already been considered and controlled for. It's there in plain writing in the rubric breakdown. The damage numbers are the damage numbers, if I break the rules to give MNK a higher grade than it actually scored then there's no point in this exercise.

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I don't disagree with the numbers, but the frequency of said numbers in a 5 minute match. Other jobs that can pull a bigger number on a STB just do not have the same frequency as MNK (not even considering its ease of use or newbie friendly nature).

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

I don't doubt that NIN and BRD have great synergy, but "BRD has really great burst" is kind of a hard sell when you spent the whole paragraph talking about how much it enables NIN. "BRD is nice to its friends" is what I got out of that, and I don't think anyone ever disagreed on that point. My point was never that BRD can't set up or help secure kills. The point was that BRD never has the option of solo killing anyone, and that's why it's rated relatively low in single-target burst.

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Well yeah, BRD is a support job after all, it helps its friends.
But the thing about BRD bursts is that it comes out quick and can be lined up with its silence, so as long as 1 or even 2 out of your other 4 teammates follow it up, you have a high chance of securing KOs with the silence+burst. CC is a team mode after all, not dueling, solo KO potential is not super important in CC imo, solo KO potential is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

If the monk combo is wrong I will gladly take your input in correcting it. Not sure how it's a freely available option to "just don't get hit kekw", between Six-sided Star and Enlightenment/Meteodrive, but maybe you know something I don't. Remember that we're mathing for
Speaking of monks and LB charging, we were doing some additional testing and I'm not sure if it's a duel-specific thing, but MNK LB seems to be bugged, wanted to pull your ear on that one real quick. Every Meteodrive that we used did 3 ticks of 4k damage during the animation, and then a last hit of 12k--regardless of whether the Meteodrive was used against Guard or not. The 3 ticks of 4k also were not reflected at all in the battle log in either situation. I'm pretty sure that it's supposed to only award a bonus 12k damage if you hit an ungarded target, so unless it's counting its own de-Guarding, I don't think it's behaving as intended. If that IS the intended interaction, it's pretty weird that a) it doesn't show up in battle log, and b) the tooltip doesn't just say "strips guard and deals 24k damage".

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That's a translation error in the tooltip iirc, it does the same damage whether they're in guard or not.

I had a bunch of success with Bard Players and especially trying it myself, Bard is very underrated.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

If the monk combo is wrong I will gladly take your input in correcting it. Not sure how it's a freely available option to "just don't get hit kekw", between Six-sided Star and Enlightenment/Meteodrive, but maybe you know something I don't. Remember that we're mathing for theoretical maximums sans counterplay, because that's what we can control for and calculate.

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I meant to reply to this as well in my last post, but as I said there is multiple different ways to LB combo as MNK, but I'll give the proper order to one of them using the skills you had for it in the doc.

Rising Pheonix > Enlightenment > Six-Sided Star > Meteodrive > Rising Phoenix > Phantom Rush
Assuming your first Rising Phoenix hits them, it's:
3k+12k+4k+24k+8k+3k+18k = 72k
Sometimes the ending has ping issues though and is better off not being Rising Phoenix'd for the 18k Phantom Rush, so if you don't do that in favor of just raw Phantom Rushing, while also not including the damage of the first Rising Phoenix, it still does 60k damage.
That's just one of the LB combo variations, and usually in my experience you don't have to use it much when your team can follow up to secure the KO; usually I've just done a simple: Quick chat LB ping > Mark Target on point where your team is > raw LB > Rising Phoenix > Six-Sided Star > Phantom Rush = 49k. If your team somehow cannot help you secure this on point after pinging LB and marking target, then your team probably doesn't belong in PvP.

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Originally Posted by MNKabuser

Well yeah, BRD is a support job after all, it helps its friends.
But the thing about BRD bursts is that it comes out quick and can be lined up with its silence, so as long as 1 or even 2 out of your other 4 teammates follow it up, you have a high chance of securing KOs with the silence+burst. CC is a team mode after all, not dueling, solo KO potential is not super important in CC imo, solo KO potential is just a bonus.

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CC is a team mode, but REQUIRING the intervention of teammates weighs heavily against the job imo. I know how good its kill secure potential can be, I have almost 100% kill participation almost every match. And to circle back to the root of all this, people seem to be upset that BRD is rated so low because the rubric omits sustained DPS, partywide buffs, and burst availability/flexibility--but let's just run the thought experiment. Even if I WERE to create new categories and award BRD all those points, if I were to do the same for every other job, where would BRD end up on the relative scale in the final analysis? Not much higher than it currently is, if at all. At the very very best it'd squeak into the bottom of B tier.

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Originally Posted by MNKabuser

That's a translation error in the tooltip iirc, it does the same damage whether they're in guard or not.

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Ah I see, very weird that it doesn't show up in the battle log at all though. I blame spaghetti code.

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Originally Posted by MNKabuser

Rising Pheonix > Enlightenment > Six-Sided Star > Meteodrive > Rising Phoenix > Phantom Rush
Assuming your first Rising Phoenix hits them, it's:
3k+12k+4k+24k+8k+3k+18k = 72k

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72k is the number we got though? Unless the order is the only thing you had an issue with. You'd also have to put a Thunderclap between Enlightenment and Six-sided, right? I've been Enlightenment->Meteodrived a LOT too, so I wouldn't say it's entirely incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I had a bunch of success with Bard Players and especially trying it myself, Bard is very underrated.

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Yeah apparently it's such a broken job that you can know nothing about the game, do all your combos wrong, and still get carried into Top 30. Idk why everyone just doesn't do that tbh, yall are missing out on free real estate

aight now that ive stopped facepalming i have a genuine question.

what is it with 6.1 andys and gaining this ego and thinking they know everything there is to know about pvp to the point you start making tier lists and (not saying you do this) unironically say stuff like "skill issue" its cool you gettin dubs but it seems it just gets to peoples heads really fast.

and again tier lists in 5 button pvp with accessibility in mind. idk why people jerk off to em so much.

you win a few cc matches and this happens. has to be a upgraded level of brainrot not even feast players were like this

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Originally Posted by IllidanFang

aight now that ive stopped facepalming i have a genuine question.

what is it with 6.1 andys and gaining this ego and thinking they know everything there is to know about pvp to the point you start making tier lists and (not saying you do this) unironically say stuff like "skill issue" its cool you gettin dubs but it seems it just gets to peoples heads really fast.

and again tier lists in 5 button pvp with accessibility in mind. idk why people jerk off to em so much.

you win a few cc matches and this happens. has to be a upgraded level of brainrot not even feast players were like this

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There will always be people who seek depth of understanding. Super Smash Bros was never meant to be a deeply analyzed or competitive game--it was meant to be a family-friendly 2 button fighter. I guess you don't play any other games? Because people like me aren't exactly the exception to the norm. If you don't care to look deeply into the guts of the game, then cool. But some of us do, and it's almost just as much fun for us to experiment and dig and theorycraft as it is for us to actually play.

Ultimately, I think for me personally it comes from a desire to understand things better so that I can better make recommendations for the overall health of the game--not that the devs are at all likely to listen, but I like to think that in some small measure, my efforts might result in the betterment of the game for everyone. At the very least, I'll have access to knowledge that most people never bothered to dig for, and I can therefore bring attention and educational awareness where there was none before. SE's documentation and methods for explaining their game are notoriously awful, so it falls to us to help (newer) players figure out what they're getting into.

This tier list was a math experiment from the start, meant to be interesting and to spark discussion. Anyone who took it as "this is the definitive be-all-end-all and if you disagree you're wrong" was probably just projecting their own ego LOL. Hope that answers your question

It was a question? I guess it was all hidden beneath the edge.

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Originally Posted by IllidanFang

aight now that ive stopped facepalming i have a genuine question.

what is it with 6.1 andys and gaining this ego and thinking they know everything there is to know about pvp to the point you start making tier lists and (not saying you do this) unironically say stuff like "skill issue" its cool you gettin dubs but it seems it just gets to peoples heads really fast.

and again tier lists in 5 button pvp with accessibility in mind. idk why people jerk off to em so much.

you win a few cc matches and this happens. has to be a upgraded level of brainrot not even feast players were like this

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Why insult the math or people who engage in doing it when you can't even count the avarage amount of buttons available per job in pvp? Ego is never uninvolved, maybe while asleep... Yours is screaming at you to show how much smarter you are doing 0 maths!

As someone who climbed on SGE only, putting SGE above WHM and AST in any points just makes me confused honestly, so I'll just brings some points.
WHM has one of the strongest burst aoe and single targets of all the healers, LB > Misery > Seraph Strike is 18k + 13200 + 8000, that's 40k total damage alone in aoe in basically a single gcd while also stunning everyone hit, so putting it's aoe damage at 1 is honestly laughable.
On top of that, they have one of the strongest single target CC in the game, even if it's CD is a bit long, it's strength and ability to confirm kills and interrupt burst is incontestable, for MoN alone WHM should be put on 3 or even 4 if adding the power of its stun lb.

Meanwhile SGE has a lot of weakness in comparison to WHM, for 1 being only able to use Phlegma, their most powerful sustain damage GCD on melee, is one of them, especially when SGE only defense is a sad 8k shield if they have kardia on themselves, once again in comparison, WHM has the ability to gain a 10% damage mitigation buff on themselves, and a 8k shield that can be boosted to 16k if they dispel a CC with it, that can be used immediately and isn't behind a gcd dot.
And while SGE 10% damage debuff can be nice, its lack of meaningful CC is also one of its biggest weakness, being unable to stop anyone from attacking you beside fleeing to a friendly with Icarus is painful in a meta where burst pressure is so strong.

Honestly, SGE greatest strength comes from its 2min LB which can be used twice per matches, outside of that it's probably one of the weakest job in CC in the game right now.

SGE Phlegma has shorter range than basically any other move (yes, even shorter than the melee ones) it's hilarious. I think they have had like no changes(?) in all of the patches though so guess their win% is solid. Personally I would like to add them (and their target depending on friend/enemy) a slight damage resistance/reduction in their Jump or something similar to make them just a tiny bit less glass cannon-y.

I don't even find SGE's that good. Sure it can turn games if used precisely a time where it prevents people to win a game, or forces defenders to deal with it when you're about to win a game, but in any other scenario, the enemy can just refuse to fight it and wait it out, or they can also kill the sage.

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Originally Posted by Dakam

As someone who climbed on SGE only, putting SGE above WHM and AST in any points just makes me confused honestly, so I'll just brings some points.
WHM has one of the strongest burst aoe and single targets of all the healers, LB > Misery > Seraph Strike is 18k + 13200 + 8000, that's 40k total damage alone in aoe in basically a single gcd while also stunning everyone hit, so putting it's aoe damage at 1 is honestly laughable.
On top of that, they have one of the strongest single target CC in the game, even if it's CD is a bit long, it's strength and ability to confirm kills and interrupt burst is incontestable, for MoN alone WHM should be put on 3 or even 4 if adding the power of its stun lb.

Meanwhile SGE has a lot of weakness in comparison to WHM, for 1 being only able to use Phlegma, their most powerful sustain damage GCD on melee, is one of them, especially when SGE only defense is a sad 8k shield if they have kardia on themselves, once again in comparison, WHM has the ability to gain a 10% damage mitigation buff on themselves, and a 8k shield that can be boosted to 16k if they dispel a CC with it, that can be used immediately and isn't behind a gcd dot.
And while SGE 10% damage debuff can be nice, its lack of meaningful CC is also one of its biggest weakness, being unable to stop anyone from attacking you beside fleeing to a friendly with Icarus is painful in a meta where burst pressure is so strong.

Honestly, SGE greatest strength comes from its 2min LB which can be used twice per matches, outside of that it's probably one of the weakest job in CC in the game right now.

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I was also a SGE main once upon a time, and I also believed a lot of the same things you're saying here. Let's go through it point by point.

-WHM's AoE is a 1 due to clerical error, it should be a 3. I believe this has already been addressed in the thread but I'm not sure. Either way, the points gained by correcting this only bump WHM up to tie at the top of B tier.
-Miracle of Nature has already been counted at double value
-If you're using Phlegma as sustained DPS and not as a team AoE burst supplement, I really don't know what to tell you
-Being sad about SGE's tiny shield is valid, but your perspective might improve if you consider SGE to be a green DPS that can happen to shield as opposed to a shield healer who has fat DPS. In any case, SGE was rated 2 in DEF while WHM was rated 5, so I'm not sure what the complaint is here.
-You don't always have to flee to an ally. You can two-birds-one-stone and escape a sticky situation by joining the gang in beating up an enemy, especially if the person chasing you has committed all of their mobility already.


As I've said before, perspective adjustment plays a big part in how strong or weak SGE feels. While it's partially because of DoT damage padding, SGE can easily top damage charts in any given match. Mesotes, while eminently easy to waste, is a singularly game-altering LB. It doesn't have to be used on-cooldown, and SGE players often suffer for trying to do so. One of the best SGE's I've seen has a habit of holding LB for the exact right moment--it only has to do its job once if it does it well enough.

While I must once again stress reading the caveats to this math experiment, I do think that SGE and WHM are well-placed in relation to each other. It is very difficult to deal with a good SGE player, as there aren't many options to interrupt their value beyond "just kill them lol", which a good SGE player will be very good at countering. Near-constant uptime on Toxikon combined with their ability to take advantage of their own damage debuff is a very big deal. WHM's resources can be exhausted pretty quickly, and as long as you're not blatantly disrespecting MoN or the laser, there's not a ton of value that they can bring to the table.

I may have been biased in saying "just kill the sage" for sure. But then again, once their guard has gone, they're free meal to burst. Mesotes' main value has to happen within the first 5-7s of the LB, unless you have a pocket Paladin idk. It's a pretty nasty constraint.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I may have been biased in saying "just kill the sage" for sure. But then again, once their guard has gone, they're free meal to burst. Mesotes' main value has to happen within the first 5-7s of the LB, unless you have a pocket Paladin idk. It's a pretty nasty constraint.

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Mesotes is very high value if you understand how it works. It's not a traditional "immunity field" like in other games, because of the server tick structure in this game. It grants allies a short immunity buff if it sees them inside the field on a server tick, and it grants enemies the corresponding DoT+counterbuff the same way. This means if you're smart, you don't have to play inside the Mesotes all the time. Ever noticed that sometimes when you try to kill a SGE right after Mesotes ends, they still take 0 damage? It's possible to practice using that "tick immunity" on purpose, giving you a lot more freedom than you might think.

When I say free to burst down it obviously means going in and taking the bullet from the debuff. If the whole team does it, it's not exactly hard to pull off, but on the other hand it offers a window of high damage for the opposing team. This is why this LB loses a lot of value against coordinated team in my view, especially when people are disciplined enough to retreat, or decide to go in for the kill at once. I'm not saying that it's a binary, easy result to get or anything, but like a lot of LBs that take their value over time (BLM, WAR, etc are also in similar situations), if you kill them during it, it can be pretty miserable.

MNK, MCH, and even NIN/DRG are pretty hard counters to this, and the sage really needs a reactive team to prevent them to just oneshot them (with cc or big damage pressure).

I like how a lot of people are just skimming over the 'this list is only based on factors you can reliably quantify/calculate and does not factor in the many sporadic variables that can turn a game in the classes favor'. It's the very example of 'on paper vs in practice'.
Anyway, it's at the very least interesting to see. I knew reaper had a pretty well-rounded kit on paper, but I didn't think it'd take top 1 in this.

It's pretty interesting that a ranking based on numbers and math differs quite a bit to one I'd create based on playing them in casual mode (I'm no pro so this is just my view on the jobs based on a casual pvp player)

https://i.postimg.cc/3RZHJnDC/tierpvp6-4.png


S tier - extremely powerful AND easy to play on top of that

DRG - it's super strong and mobile, absolute menace with high kill potential and tough to get a hold of, especially diving into targets to assist and secure kills
MCH - insanely focus target potential with quite a few utility slapped on it to defend the crystal - wildfire is pretty meh but that's to balance out the otherwise insane kit I guess...
WHM - extremely straightforward for the power you're getting, also an excellent crystal pusher unsurprisingly tanky too with so many heals and defensive skills - excellent kill assists too

A-tier - high performing jobs that need little to mid effort

BLM - insane damage and high cc potential paired with high mobility - if left unchecked, this job will just overwhelm parties sooner rather than later...
SMN - surprisingly powerful damage wise with a variety of skills can take out targets with ease with well timed binds to catch ppl off guard - the garuda whirlwind is bit lackluster but good for crystal battles
GNB - highly versatile most of the time, even in tank junction the damage seems overall high - pretty funny to be in dps junction if you're not focused and slice enemies to bits then change to tank/healer stance if available once they realize you're quite the threat
WAR - THE bully job can taunt players by generally being annoying which works for most casual battles to turn their attention away from your team
PLD - Seems very straightforward too with high annoyance factor - the cover can be a godsend and great for keeping the crystal to your team - pretty solid overall


B-tier - solid for most matches

MNK - It's not as straightforward and quite difficult to play - has a lot of potential though and excels at distracting the enemy away from the crystal or chase major threats away from the fray - surprisingly tanky on top of that too
DRK - I find this job rather difficult to play, I'm sure it's hovering around A tier when played correctly cause it does pack a punch due to the high risk and high reward style but you can just walk away from the salted earth when it's not directly placed below the crystal lol
SGE - Often overlooked glass cannon - quite mobile with an aggressive playstyle albeit on the frail side. Kardia is a bit tricky to manage when things go wild so best slapped on yourself unless you're not really focused on at all - automatically placing a barrier to yourself when kardia is on someone else would incentivize swapping lot more

SAM - I found that it does a lot of damage especially in aoe but seems so stupidly easy to just walk out of their distance... can turn around fights though
NIN - This one feels overhyped at least for casual - yeah it has lots of tools at their disposal but it's not like you can use them all at once and you can't just use the same mudra repeatedly either


C-tier - Good but usually need lot more effort

RDM - While this is not a slouch at all, it feels like other jobs just simply do the same job more easily. Still an unchecked RDM on blackshift will destroy quite a bit while catching ppl off guard with their bind/silence
BRD - Very controversial after it's nerf - like it's not bad and still has killing potential but it's damage getting gutted by being close range on crystal fights just feels like a big design flaw and should be other way around (cause a short ranged arrow will hurt lot more lol)
DNC - Has quite a few tools to be effective but most of the time percieved as an easy target due to having to stay in a somewhat close to mid range. Still quite mobile can still attack quite well while escaping too
RPR - This one requires a lot of setup it seems due to the assist/kill mechanic but it can cause some surprise wins on overtime battles with their fear LB - bit too complicated for your average player to keep composure during their highly technical LB phase as well I feel like


D-tier - Servicable but feel lacking

SCH - it's not bad per se and can be quite the nuisance in the battlefield still it's impact isn't as noticable as most of the others. Probably the clunkiest LB imo - generally the job I can focus on providing callouts the most if that's your thing
AST - can provide an excellent backbone as support and generally does well - can dish high numbers too when the enemy is packed together but generally feels probably the weakest if you're alone especially on a crystal

all ima say is you put rdm mobility low and drg mobility a 5

thats crazy

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Originally Posted by Valence

It was a question? I guess it was all hidden beneath the edge.

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that one missed chief try again

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Originally Posted by Bluish

Why insult the math or people who engage in doing it when you can't even count the avarage amount of buttons available per job in pvp? Ego is never uninvolved, maybe while asleep... Yours is screaming at you to show how much smarter you are doing 0 maths!

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insulting math when you put rdm mobility low tier
whm aoe and cc low tier as well

ok

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Originally Posted by IllidanFang

insulting math when you put rdm mobility low tier
whm aoe and cc low tier as well

ok

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I do not disagree with what you are saying but how you say it and keep in mind that it is thanks to this thread that a lot of people got to reflect on various jobs and what they are capable of, yourself included. You might find that some responses are both informative and helpful. The method here is flowed even if the math is good because the context is all that matters and this is complately outside of it. I think a survey which allows people who tried a job to rate it on various scales would provide a better picture in this case.

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Originally Posted by IllidanFang

insulting math when you put rdm mobility low tier
whm aoe and cc low tier as well

ok

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I believe WHM AoE was the result of clerical error, which has been noted previously in the thread

WHM crowd control and RDM mobility rating has also been discussed several times

Reading the thread explains the thread

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Originally Posted by Bluish

I do not disagree with what you are saying but how you say it and keep in mind that it is thanks to this thread that a lot of people got to reflect on various jobs and what they are capable of, yourself included. You might find that some responses are both informative and helpful. The method here is flowed even if the math is good because the context is all that matters and this is complately outside of it. I think a survey which allows people who tried a job to rate it on various scales would provide a better picture in this case.

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We've tried to account for and/or control for context wherever possible--the rules of the rubric are all right there for everyone to see. From what I've seen so far in this thread, most people didn't bother reading the rubric at all and just looked at the graphs, which I can't say I didn't see coming. Keep in mind that because the scoring curve is bracketed for EXISTING minimums and maximums, these ratings are RELATIVE ratings, not absolutes. Just because something is rated a 2 in mobility doesn't mean it has strictly and literally poor mobility, it means that relative to the rest of the jobs, it has relatively poor options.

Asking people how they feel about certain attributes of certain jobs wouldn't be a very good indicator of anything, I think--then you'd get people saying that BRD has the best burst in the game or something LOL.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

I believe WHM AoE was the result of clerical error, which has been noted previously in the thread


Asking people how they feel about certain attributes of certain jobs wouldn't be a very good indicator of anything, I think--then you'd get people saying that BRD has the best burst in the game or something LOL.

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You might be right but this raw math seemed to have presented a distorted picture for a number of jobs and it would be nice to see how that compares with how people experience playing the job. I don't think anyone who played bard enough would oversetimate their burst potency but I'm pretty sure that the job would be rated higher in some categories.

The context is in the difference between in vivo and in vitro. I was trying to think about a research method that might reflect in vivo performance. Surveys have their bias as any other method but a large survey can still produce a decent profile for each job. You did a good job in both explaining and presenting your calculations but you must see yourself that in case of bard the picture is far cry from reality.

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Originally Posted by Bluish

The context is in the difference between in vivo and in vitro. I was trying to think about a research method that might reflect in vivo performance. Surveys have their bias as any other method but a large survey can still produce a decent profile for each job. You did a good job in both explaining and presenting your calculations but you must see yourself that in case of bard the picture is far cry from reality.

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I think if we did a survey it'd have to be modulated by rank in some way. Take SAM, for example. At low ranks, it can dominate with little more than Chiten/Zantetsuken, but it falls off around Diamond/Plat once people figure out how to deal with that. Then in higher Crystal, it becomes strong again when the SAM players figure out how to play without relying solely on LB cheese.

I guess in my initial disclaimer and rubric breakdown I shouldve been more clear with what this system is presenting: it is sanitized to measure, as closely as possible, what each job is capable of (relative to other jobs), given perfect play and perfect opportunities. This is to provide quantifiable and level baseline, which the reader can use to factor in the amount of difficulty and resistance that they expect their job(s) to encounter.

In other words, each player is supposed to interpret the data by adding context relevant to them. Anyone who has seen any stats in any other game (or sport, even) knows that numbers are never the whole story, and I suppose it was my mistake to assume that the CC community would approach this project with that notion in mind.

Re:BRD I'll keep saying it until I'm summarily executed on this hill, but BRD is a win-more value engine and force multiplier that only looks good if its team looks good. Maybe it can solo hard carry in Silver or something, but it certainly isn't going to be the star of the team in anything Diamond or above. It's a combat support that requires correct and timely follow-up to achieve anything of value, in a game full of melees and tanks that can either fulfill their own game plan or provide 85% solutions that only require their team to breathe on the enemy. It sits in a similar space to AST and SCH imo. As mentioned before, the flexibility and availability of its burst means it's good at mopping up kills that its team couldn't otherwise complete, which is probably why people have such a skewed perception of its lethality. But even that availability comes at a price, namely Empyreal requiring constant combat to achieve any reasonable cooldown. BRD can't just go hide somewhere and elixir while waiting for its burst window to come back up.

Rather than a survey to measure perception, maybe a more rigorous method would be to track the actual performance stats of people maining each job, with a handful of sample players in different rank brackets. I wish the ending scoreboard/stats screen had a 'detailed view' to track things like mitigation and crowd control score, but we're stuck with what we have.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

Rather than a survey to measure perception, maybe a more rigorous method would be to track the actual performance stats of people maining each job, with a handful of sample players in different rank brackets. I wish the ending scoreboard/stats screen had a 'detailed view' to track things like mitigation and crowd control score, but we're stuck with what we have.

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I wish that too.

There's a post that refers to matchmaking in ranked where people end up going against uneven numbers of melee and ranged jobs, if that was not the problem bard would always be a bonus as one of 2-3 ranged jobs in any team. Bard can work with any other job to secure kills and provide a cover, doesn't have to stop moving or shooting save to lb or pot and the way lb can perk the team up at crucial times, you may as well call that hard carry. The nerf hurts but you can still have a ball as a bard or with a bard in your team. I will risk execution for saying that!

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I had a bunch of success with Bard Players and especially trying it myself, Bard is very underrated.

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This, the only thing i think is wrong with it is the range damage loss on filler is too much now that they have to get closer to the fight for their silence
they are not bad

My good lord, who let you cook... and why

From one that hasn't touched machinist at all I'm surprised that class isn't considered at least A tier considering that it's the only class to consistently delete all other range dps from 100 to 0 by themselves every time their limit break comes up despite them having no mobility.

To each their own thoughts though. The results are on the leaderboards.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

From one that hasn't touched machinist at all I'm surprised that class isn't considered at least A tier considering that it's the only class to consistently delete all other range dps from 100 to 0 by themselves every time their limit break comes up despite them having no mobility.

To each their own thoughts though. The results are on the leaderboards.

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With the limited mobility and lack of much in the way of defensives I can easily see them dropping a tier on that alone. The nuclear burst comes with a price.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

From one that hasn't touched machinist at all I'm surprised that class isn't considered at least A tier considering that it's the only class to consistently delete all other range dps from 100 to 0 by themselves every time their limit break comes up despite them having no mobility.

To each their own thoughts though. The results are on the leaderboards.

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Spite is not that easy to pull off successfully like that against good, top ranking players, for the simple reason that Wildfire is a big red flag, and the silent version generally doesn't outright oneshot even the squishiest (unless you use Drill, but then the target can just spamm recuperate and get away with it). Now though, it's still a huge threat to eat this in the face, but trying to take down people full of resources with it can be a gamble. Super effective to punish players out of resources though, but that's not the only LB that does this.

Personally I only know one MCH on the top rankers where I play. Not exactly a stellar record for the job, but that's the life of most ranged DPS anyway.