Knowing XIV all the dungeons are straight lines.
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07-01-2023, 07:30 PMFourbestintoner
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07-01-2023, 10:08 PMAvoidy
Watching people play ff16 and complain about the story was kind of funny, because some of their complaints about its presentation mirrored my own complaints about how ff14's story is presented. I don't want to put a lot of stock into it until I actually play it myself (I don't own a ps5) but one streamer was basically griping about the postgame side story cutscenes feeling like stiff uneventful snoozefests that railroaded him into a fetch quest, and all I could think was "yeah that's basically 90% of post-ARR." It's just funny how outside of the 14 community, most people are totally willing to acknowledge that a story told at a glacial pace, with barely animated (lemme /handover nothing to you real quick) largely unvoiced cardboard-looking cutscenes, just doesn't grab them. Post-ARR is referred to as a sort of filter for a reason, but it's not because there's something inherently wrong with the people who quit. It's because everything wrong with the game's story presentation is on full display in post-arr, for over 80 quests. When you go to other games and ask people about it, they'll be frank about it. When players encountered similar design choices in 16, they outright skipped it or sped through it. But oh, god forbid you mention it here. People will call you a troll account for daring to suggest that more of the cutscenes should be voiced, or for asking why every other cutscene in EW has the same clenched-fist animation, etc. etc.
Maybe SE will allocate more funds and manpower to CBU3 so they can make all of their cutscenes hildibrand-tier going forward. Oh, who am I kidding. They'll just squeeze 14 harder while pulling what little staff we have left to fund and create Forespoken's undeserved sequel.
A complaint I heard often was regarding the linearity of the game in general. Which yeah, given what we've seen in 14 and the staff overlap involved (and just the nature of modern gaming tbh), doesn't surprise me at all. It also made me laugh when I learned that to unlock a harder difficulty you apparently must beat the whole game on normiemode first, which is apparently piss easy. Since lots of people lose any desire to play a story-focused game twice, this has left many ff16 players feeling dissatisfied with the game's difficulty. Though the details are slightly different, ff14 fans have long complained about the way normal mode is like babby tier while savage mode is highly coordinated, with not a whole lot of room in between. It's a different kind of complaint, but at its core you have a system that's sort of shoehorned a lot of people into a mode that's way easier than what they'd like. It's funny when you stand back and look at how lots of the issues we have with ff14 are reflected in 16. But, hey. At least in 16's case, the gameplay seems solid and fans of it won't have to worry about the devteam jumping in to suddenly turn their favorite playstyle into a one button rotation haha can you imagine haha just imagine hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner
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07-02-2023, 08:50 PMthevanguard
It's not just the filler sidequests that are glacier-paced in FF16. It's really everything. The UX is one of the worst I've experienced in an AAA for a while now. You can barely skip anything. Talk to Tomes, wait for a year for him to get his XP. Killed a boss, wait for a year for the loot screen to process. Cutscene ended? Wait for a year for the camera to slowly pan back to Clive.
And of course the unskippable loot screens that pop up as you kill a boss and completely kill the climax. Who designed this lmao. Even Skyrim modders make better UI than this
The game doesn't flow. The first sidequest is horrible not just because of the story but because accepting the quest, finishing the quest, sending the soup to people, all these are buried under an extraordinary amount of waiting in the UI screens. The actual quest takes like 4 seconds but the UI takes up 2 mins while the cutscenes repeat the glaringly obvious lore details that anyone with two brain cells would already be able to infer from the plot.
This game's UI/UX is like Stone Age design but then again it's Japan where they still fax each other and a look at MogStation UI tells you all you need to know. Anyone who thinks the UX is good hasn't played a top-tier modern Western single player game. -
07-03-2023, 01:33 AMAtelier-BagurI dont blame the UI design (although why is there a key item hand over screen is beyond me). Its mostly the pacing of dialogue and cutscenes being so slow. Like it feels it takes a good minute for characters to say their peace and its one of my main gripes with voice acting where I read the text faster than the voice actors reading and emoting their lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by thevanguard
This is why I enjoy older games where you can read and proceed through the cutscenes at your own pace without having to consciously wait for the game to catch up with you -
07-03-2023, 01:42 AMThemarvinIt is pointless IGN appeal mostly towards western ways, and FF games is Japanese or Eastern... it is different cultures.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDecay
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07-03-2023, 05:36 AMNitelancer
Instead of watching game of thrones before making XVI they should have played some old final fantasies.
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07-03-2023, 09:10 AMRufalus
Just saw a comment on reddit that sums things up quite well. I've edited it down a bit.
I wish the director and producer would see comments like those and feel some regret about how they mishandled the series legacy. How was this supposed to regain the trust of fans after XV made a big departure of its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by FarSurvey3285
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07-03-2023, 09:15 AMElkanahAnything from IGN, GamesRadar+, and Kotaku should be taken with a shot of gunpowder and salt. The game was made in a more western-type approach, rather than the traditional Japanese rpg (being more action oriented). Games change as series progress in time. Theyre not hanging it back like most boomer culture seems to think (back in my day blah blah blah). A lot of journalists praised the changes to Tomb Raider, as well as the Assassins creed series from a more open world leveling grind (rather than how they were prioritized through AC 1- IV without it). FF VIIR is getting that same praise in change (though it seems to be more biased of FF7 fans, which is nothing new for all the FF7 simps out there). Suddenly FF XV and XVI change the way the games are played going forward, and everyone complains? Starting to think that even RPG fans have no clue about what they want anymore. Do you want a more traditional rpg style? Go play Final Fantasy 1-6? It's available in a whole pack? Or fallout and skyrim? Persona was great, but Atlus just doesnt change at all. Is it a good thing? Eh, depends on who you ask. But what do yall actually want??Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDecay
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07-03-2023, 09:42 AMthevanguardFF16 tries to be a modern Western action game a la God of War (PS4/5), but doesn't match up. It's really that simple. They pissed off the traditional JRPG fans, sure, but it isn't as good as the games it's trying to emulate either. It's not that deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkanah
It does, however, seem to cater very nicely to RPG fans who suck at action games but are also open to trying out an action game for the first time. Such a demographic is so small idk why they went for this market. But it says something about CBU3 sadly. They chased the hardcore FF fan who hate MMOs with a passion for FF14 and the effect is clear as day. And they did the same for FF16 once again. -
07-03-2023, 11:36 AMRitsukoSonodaAnother thing also is that a majority of their releases that either fell flat or just failed to meet expectations were titles geared towards western audiences either as new IP's or entries into acquired popular western franchises they had at the time and recently sold off. It's honestly not a very strong track record for making games catering to western gamers. The titles catering more to Japanese gamers were the ones that got them attention in the west to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by thevanguard
As for who FF14 is catering to. Honestly I'd say it caters more to people that do not play RPGs with things like EX trials, Savage, Ultimate added as an afterthought to say the game does have a hardcore gaming community. The game had nearly every RPG element stripped from it at ARR launch and has steadily had more removed as the game progressed and basically had visual novel mode added later with the option to select very easy on solo MSQ trials. Our relic for this expansion so far has basically just been using the tomestone type the game hands out like candy on halloween. -
07-03-2023, 12:18 PMR041
Just beat XVI, AMA..
I don't really know how to feel - There's a lot wrong with this title. I want to really like it, but it makes it extremely difficult. Every time I expect it to do something correctly, it almost intentionally does the opposite or just forgets about it entirely.
The ludicrous amount of padding it does, have got to be some of the worst game design in 2023. It's funny because we chalk all of those similar issues in XIV to it being an MMO with 1.0 jank, but apparently it's just a CBU:III thing, because they brought the same exact jank with them to a single player game. I don't know if it's just that they're stuck in a bubble and have only really worked on an MMO, so they don't really know how else to design a game or what.
The pacing, quests, items, rewards, plot holes, dumb-plot, everything - It's all designed like it's an XIV expansion with really watered down DMC combat and horrible balance. You can see effort was put into a lot of the environments, systems, ideas - But then it all flops in the balance and direction.
Side quests are mostly generic medieval woe is me, they honestly don't do much to add to the world building, at least no more than passing by a person talking about their chickens, or talking shit to a bearer. Only a few of them add to the story or world, and no the last few good set at the very end of the game don't make up for the first 100 shit ones.
I can't count the amount of times my 'party' would constantly tell me I shouldn't do things alone, and that we're a team. Meanwhile the story always comes up with bullshit reasons to force me to 1v1. It purposefully made all important characters weak when it mattered, but strong in cutscenes. It was like a diabolus ex machina every time.
I'm not going to sit here and judge it like a Final Fantasy, because that's where people get you with their bullshit. This wasn't a bad Final Fantasy. It was a bad game. Anything it tried to do, it always did pretty poorly.
The action combat eventually turned into me basically doing an MMO rotation. It felt horrible to fight anything after the 50% mark of the game. So repetitive.
Forcing you to figure out which side quests had critical plotlines connected to the MSQ is a horrible way to tell a story. Yet you put filler bullshit in half of the MSQ. Shame.
The only thing it really did well, was manage to hype people out of their own godamn minds into thinking mediocrity is a 10/10.
For a game and story all about being conscious of your faults and struggles, it wasn't very conscious of it's own.
Good music, I liked some of the characters, and boss fights kinda sick tho.
7/10 story
4/10 gameplay
QTE QTE QTE QTE ALWAYS QTE QTE, WHEN DO I GET TO FIGHT THE BOSS MYSELF? -
07-03-2023, 12:39 PMRufalusI will keep replaying the old ones every few years for the rest of my life, but I expected to get brand new stuff too. They don't make a spiritual successor, they only make completely different stuff with mere references to the old FF series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkanah
It turned out that Square is a completely different company without Sakaguchi. He continued to develop his unique style after leaving them 20 years ago. Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, The Last Story, Terra Battle, Fantasian. I haven't played Fantasian yet because it's an Apple Arcade exclusive.
He did the best he could without Square's resources. You can see innovative ideas in each one of his games while still being firmly in the same genre. This guy is a legend. -
07-03-2023, 12:52 PMRufalusThe major review sites rate their first time experiences, which includes non-gameplay. They gave it 9/10 because wow Bahamut cutscene so exciting, skewing the perception of its worth as a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
With such major flaws in actual game design it should not be considered near perfect. I'm really interested to see how UK's EDGE magazine score it next month, the people who smacked Sonic Frontiers with a 3/10. -
07-03-2023, 12:58 PMR041It's extremely obvious most reviews are due to a vertical slice of the best bits, I kinda doubt most of them actually played through the game, and less so beat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
In the Demo I thought it was great. I figured it'd open up and the gameplay would expand. But nah, what you get in the demo is all of the good stuff, and even most of the abilities you'll be using 90% of the 40 hour MSQ. So you bet it'll get pretty damn repetitive, especially when most of the game is shit easy 1 button wipe the whole room.
Anyone saying 10/10 have to be out of their mind. Not only would I just never say any game is a straight 10/10, but this is almost Cyberpunk 2077 levels of bad and deceptive to me. (Personal opinion)
"Yeah it has a lot of flaws, but it's still 10/10 to me" - Make it make sense. lol
That means they enjoy the game, that doesn't mean it's the best game. That's totally different.. I enjoy plenty of trash games that are probably considered 3/10.
And I still enjoyed at least 30% of my time playing XVI. It just doesn't really warrant a second playthrough, and I certainly don't want another.
FF16 is as good of a game as Kingsglaive is a movie.. Take that as an insult or praise, however you prefer. Haha -
07-03-2023, 01:05 PMRitsukoSonodaSadly a lot of games recently seem to rely on the "Jingle Keys" approach to getting good reviews. I rated the whole game at a 6/10 which I place as just enough to be considered good or decent. Definitely not a bad game. However again my main issue with this release is that it feels like an off genre spin-off title with very pretty visuals (though the mouth animations during cutscenes bother me every time I see them). Not a mainline quality game. I wouldn't be surprised if an overwhelming majority of the game's development time was spent just on the visuals. Apparently a number of people have reported FF16 has been causing their PS5's to overheat and shut off. You'd think a number of the titles found on Nintendo Switch would show developers that you can have a visually impressive game without trying to burn out the gamer's hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
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07-03-2023, 01:05 PMMisplaced_MarblesI'd say Asura's Wrath (which is basically QTE, the game) was a worthy experience, but i wouldn't pay for it a second time. I guess this'll be yet another FF game i'll skip. Not that i was gonna buy a PS5 anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
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07-03-2023, 01:23 PMRufalus
Also I don't hate CBU3. They have contributed some good things to the series. But they threw out a lot of good too. "One step forwards, two steps back" is very appropriate.
The XVI demo was a flattering slice. Caer Norvent turns out to be one of the best parts of the full game. Not overly long, has Cid and Benedikta, great dialogue, has a good variety of attacks/phases in the boss battle accompanied by impressive visuals. Most of the game is not that interesting. -
07-03-2023, 02:43 PMCelestiCer
FF16 is terrible...
How can I tell without having played it yet you ask? Well I will tell you how I know it's terrible so buckle up here's the long explanation in vivid detail on why it's terrible...
https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png
B-because I was promised that it had " Kaiten "... False promises!! it doesn't have it at all DX !!! dreams were dashed!! shattered! mhm!! -
07-03-2023, 03:09 PMKisshuThe padding quickly becomes obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
"Come, we must get to the Phoenix Gate.
*Gets to Martha's Rest
"Well, the bridge is out, so you have to find our carpenter to fix it.
*Finds the carpenter
"Good job finding the carpenter, but he can't repair the bridge in a single cutscene. So you have to go see some dying bearers.
*Bridge is finally repaired, on to Eastpool
"Hey, before you can exit this gate, I need you to talk to this old dude, who just so happens to have wandered off so you have to find him first
------------------------------
Not even done with the game, yet it's nearly every time a village becomes a bottleneck I have to solve that area's problem before I can get past it.
Martha's Rest, Eastpool, Amber, Northreach (Tbf, it was after getting past it that the quest starts), Dalimil, Boklad.
-----------------------------
I do enjoy the game, but unlike some I really don't hope that this is the future of Final Fantasy in gameplay design and story.
Also a bit of a personal gripe. In the intro as young Clive you have the dragoon boss with an awesome thematic intro, looked so good. Then in the Greatwoods you got the Ninja boss, not a special intro but a nice cinematic ending. King's Fall boss was another dragoon, but still had a nice intro with the wyvern and the mirage jump part.
But after that it felt like human bosses just were less focused and never really used the job themes that well outside of the Dominant fights.
Even the Black Shields was another dragoon fight without anything special. Could have been so much cooler to introduce a Dark Knight here to keep the job themes going. -
07-04-2023, 01:13 AMR041Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisshu
Right - It's riddled with it. This is the core of the gameplay, and once the underlying combat becomes dull - That's kinda what you're left with.
It was such a weird experience, because I do like a bit of the game, I think they have a lot they can work with. But I also believe they went with their MMO gut for the brunt of the gameplay, when FF has survived without constant fetch-quests for decades. I don't mind a few, every FF has a few. But it's all of them. And it's always something super stupid.
Like your example with the bridge, right there I can tell you - You can jump that godamn bridge, or shimmy the side. Our characters have shimmied ledges way worse, and jumped bridges more rickety and dangerous. But I have to do a whole fetch series to put 2 planks down so I can walk across a shallow lake?
They even write the fact that he likes doing fetch quests into the story, it's ridiculous. And I know for a fact people will use that as some kinda weird defense for shitty systems. "Yeah well the story says".. lol
That's what I keep saying about the vertical slice, they only fleshed out the few areas they've been promoting. The rest are pretty dull, samey, and lack similar snazz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisshu
QTEs piss me off so much. They're the worst mechanic to me personally, and here it's just fucking egregious. If someone here hasn't playing XVI yet, you know how you can get a QTE in XIV Trials sometimes? Well imagine that being all the time, and it never telling you when it'll happen. So you could chip the boss 10% and then it's all cutscenes, or 50%, might give you your controller back, or not. Who knows? I never could figure out a pattern there.
I also find it funny that they pulled most of the bestiary and models directly from older games, but it somehow still lacks diversity. They purposefully neglected a ton of FF trope creatures. They have a few, but my personal quota is way too low. It's like they felt ashamed to really dive into FF, and thought it'd be better to go dull medieval on everything.
I won't tell someone that if they enjoy XVI they're wrong. There's a lot to like. But it loves to abuse tropes that are incredibly divisive and unpopular. When it does them, it REALLY has no shame. They're like a decade behind, and maybe we know why that is. I just don't think the archaic systems they used were used well enough in 2023 even.
This game is a good marketing scheme, it has promotion all over it, you can take a screenshot of anywhere and anything and sell it. But if you play it, you'll quickly realize they forgot to put that same effort into the actual gameplay. It's a shallow 100 mile long river, just like XIV MSQ. -
07-04-2023, 01:29 AMCStrife912My man I think its time you come to terms with you not liking how CBU3 designs their games, I have done everything in 16 besides finishing new game plus which I'm just taking my time through now. The side quests and padding didn't actually affect me that much because I was enjoying the world building and characters or even the voice acting. However I wont defend all the side quests or some of the pacing because some of it could indeed have been trimmed out (The bridge one you mentioned I definitely agree with but at the same time I get to explore the world and wipe all the easy adds off the map)Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
You do exaggerate the QTE aspect of it though that's for sure...they exist and are there but they don't dominate the gameplay experience. I think as they lacked experience in transitioning via an action game they did it as a crutch for better or worse honestly. I mean like you said you cant say I'm wrong and I can't really say your wrong but the more general consensus wouldn't agree with all your gripes some sure though.
I play so many jrpgs and RPGs in general and I have experienced all manners of side quests, padding etc and I guess I am numb to it really. I mean heck I have a friend who just finished it and he is the most cynical hateful person I know when it comes to games and movies and he really liked it. More gripes with certain aspects of combat but I agreed with him there.
All in all it just screams the direction and style of game they make isn't for you, not saying aspects could be improved of course but I think at a core foundational design level...this isn't the business unit your looking for.
On another note, I have just started replaying FFX and shock horror in the game its been mostly talking and linear maps for about the 10 hours I've done so far. I think some of the fanbase needs to take some rose tinted glasses off when comparing them to each other. -
07-04-2023, 01:39 AMR041I do not exaggerate the QTEs. Are you serious? Are we playing the same game? Sometimes boss fights are more QTE than they are fighting. You don't even have to look very far to realize this. The Demo alone is mostly QTE in those fights. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by CStrife912
I never said I hated FF16, I said it has bad gameplay*. And like I've said before, I've played and enjoy plenty of bad games.
No I think people here are numb to shitty side-quests and bad pacing due to FFXIV storytelling and padding.
BRO THERE ARE WAY MORE QTES THAN THE TUTORIAL AND DEMO LOL
https://i.imgur.com/qOhYZr2.png
As for your playthrough of FFX - It's not that it has linear maps, yes FFXVI has less linearity in it's open world VISUALS than FFX, but FFXVI has nothing to explore or look for, while FFX does. I found like what, 2 orchestrion rolls in chests and I explored everywhere, while the rest are on merchants for 20-80k? The rest are potions, mats I don't need, and 2gil. The maps are as shallow as they are long. -
07-04-2023, 01:47 AMCStrife912I am serious the QTEs aren't that bad...i mean I've got 82 hours in at the moment (new game plus on top of base 67 hour completion) I'm very sure I am playing the same game...are you counting like movesets with hold buttons etc as well or just core cinematic evasion sections etc...which are usually reserved for eikon fights and the odd boss fight here and there cause not all of them had QTEs especially around the middle of the game or any of the hunts. Also just noticed your edit but I never said anything about them not being anywhere I just said they didn't dominate the game which they don't. Its mainly in the eikon fights or the odd early boss and end bosses, but TYPING IN CAPS doesn't make it anymore valid lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
Didn't say you hated it just said that I think with your views and critique on 14 now into 16 with some common overlap maybe its just you don't like their design goals and that's fine but with all the marketing, demo...lets plays and word of mouth its selling pretty damn well considering its limitations with platform etc.
Well 14 certainly didn't numb me with that especially as I've been playing RPGs for quite some time before I got my fangs into 14 properly after a struggled first attempt into the MMO space.
I mean i don't remember everything about FFXs maps but from what I've replayed there isn't really much off the beaten track...granted that's better then having nothing its just more when some people said oh 16 is so linear and I'm thinking excuse me....have you played many FF games they are all linear lol. -
07-04-2023, 01:52 AMR041It's a personal preference there, like I said before - If you hate something in this game it really pushes it. I hate QTEs, and it's absolutely filled with them in every story boss fight. Not the side content obviously, so if you're 80 hours in, you're not doing 80 hours of QTE. But if you're slamming the MSQ and doing those boss fights, they're A LOT of QTEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CStrife912
Yes my criticism is flowing into FFXVI, shouldn't that be expected when they refuse to learn from their own faults? CBU:III FF games have incredibly low, lows, and incredibly high, highs. It's basically their staple.
I WILL TYPE IN CAPS ALL I WANT. I HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO SAY, BUT THIS IS STAYING IN CAPS.
Okay I lied Edit: I hope you know I don't want to actually argue. Again I won't say you liking either game is wrong. And again, I play plenty of shitty games, including these.
Do I complain? Yeah. Do you have to reply to me? No. lol -
07-04-2023, 02:26 AMR041
Also, 'cause I don't say enough good things in general. I'll say this - These games always fucking hit me hard emotionally. So that's mostly why I keep coming back.
Almost all FF games, especially XVI and XIV, even if I think they're plot hole ridden, exposition dumping slogs.. Absolutely destroy me. I'm the kinda guy that gets scared, or teary pretty easily, and I tend to chase those. So I really do enjoy the storytelling overall.
Er, I mean.. YOSHI-P SUCKS EGGS.
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...Yb0f/giphy.gif -
07-04-2023, 02:39 AMCStrife912Oh im not arguing its just more back and forth debate really, I suppose when played just MSQ they would feel more prevalent then say whenever I did story and saw side quest my OCD kicked in and it had to be done along with any hunts available. I will agree though that as a franchise they are keen to have low lows and high highs. I don't have to reply to you no but I felt the urge too...maybe its that potat-I mean lalafell profile photo irking me jkjk.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
In regards to your other bit I think CBU3 is definitely the better talent in a story telling side of things take that or leave it if that's a good or bad thing haha. I found 16 to be better written and delivered for the most part comparing to others of its franchise and even more so of the jrpg genre. I don't think this trend will continue for a while though or at all depends how well it sells long term or reception because usually each mainline is like a one and done mechanically sort of thing. -
07-04-2023, 04:13 AMKisshuTo be fair, when I first sw promos with the big horn and chimera I feared that we would get straight up FF14 models in 16. At least the majority of models are new, even those inspired from 11 and 14.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
All that said, the base enemies still lack variety, has a very small amount of models. But then again, nearly all non-stamina enemies are just combo-lunge-punish-repeat fodder and don't put up much of a challenge. -
07-04-2023, 04:45 AMR041A lot of them are hi-res reskins of older models in the franchise. Most of the unique monsters to XVI are just the humanoids that all have reskins of themselves through the whole game. Then ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisshu
spoiler
Second half of the game all being Akashic versions of the first half..
Even the Moogle is a direct rip from XIV. lol
Very sloppy. :( -
07-04-2023, 05:00 AMCStrife912Well in regards to monsters I wish there were more types but I think there was clearly a direction/theme/tone they were going with so some quirky monsters wouldn't make sense for the world (but then we had a moogle) and FF is always known for taking from another....14 uses assets from 11,12,13 (Adamantoise for example started in FF11..then 14 then 16 lol they up ress, added more details and better texture work so work is done...hopefully port back for the visual update in 7.0) lol like its not uncommon and also as they are just their to populate the world I never see harm in it. The hunts were for the most part all new designed monsters. But i can definitely see how some could think it lazy...just why make stuff when you have stuff you can use is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
-
07-04-2023, 05:06 AMR041Well that's what I'm saying too, they took the worst parts of both sides. They could've just gone crazy and no shame grabbed a bunch of models to fill the world. But they decided it'd be best to have a world with mostly repeating monsters AND still have taken from older titles. So it doesn't make a lot of sense here. There's plenty of non-weird creatures to fill out a world of FF.Quote:
Originally Posted by CStrife912
Also, personal opinion - But I don't really think "Dark Medieval" is a good excuse to not provide variety. So they think Medieval is just Orcs, Goblins, and Humans? It's played out, dull, weak.. We have those garbage pile medieval games all over the place.. FF is good because variety, not because Orcs and Goblins. :(
Most of the hunts were also the same models, just slightly bigger and recolored. Couple uniques. -
07-04-2023, 05:11 AMCStrife912I agree it shouldn't be an excuse but I am just spitballing at what they were probably going with....I mean its heavily western high fantasy focused so orcs, goblins and humans sort of play out close to that. I don't think we have had high fantasy medieval games in quite some time unless you can refer me to some cause by all means its one of my fav settings lol I could always play more games set in that sort of time period.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
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07-04-2023, 05:43 AMRitsukoSonoda
In regards to lack of monster variety. This seems to be an industry trend with large companies where they try to push extreme details resulting in an exponential increase in time spent doing 1 single model compared to past games. It also results in an exponential increase to file size compared to past games resulting in most AAA games easily hitting 100 or so GB in size at launch and getting bigger as DLC is added later. A number of titles going well beyond 100GB in size at launch as well.
I'd expect FF16 to get at least 1 DLC later due to in game references to lands beyond the Twins and the absence of a water element Eikon when the game lore said there were 8 Eikons due to there being 1 for each element. Typically from looking at the franchise history the missing water Eikon would have been Leviathan. Also looking at random NPCs it shows water and ice aren't the same as people use water crystals to do things like conjure water for wells while they use ice crystals to freeze perishable food. Also it kind of seemed like there should be 1 mother crystal for each element as well. -
07-04-2023, 06:09 AMR041Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
It's a good excuse.. Until you compare it to the FFVII:R bestiary. Also you notice the constant duplicates, because XVI throws like 20 at you at a time, where VII:R is more sparsely paced. I do know they were talking about pushing the game to 2 discs because of space, but I'm pretty sure most of that was cutscene stuff, environments, music, and voicelines. Audio files are very expensive. I'd be curious to see someone rip it and see what file types used what space.
I still don't think I consider Akashic as separate versions, so it kinda comes out to about half the bestiary. -
07-04-2023, 06:31 AMRitsukoSonodaReskins/colors honestly aren't anything new in games. We got them back in the beginning days of the NES. If you only counted unique sprites/models you'd find every bestiary to be considerably smaller. Granted on those older titles they do have a much larger amount of unique sprites/models to begin with. In regards to the FF7 remake games they've basically already got a template for the design already from the original game.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
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07-04-2023, 06:38 AMR041Totally - I'm not saying reskins are new. I also work on game art and know how that goes. It's just their initial set BEFORE the reskins happen, is very limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
Also I don't know what you mean about a template from the original game.. Are you talking about the fact that VII:R had pre-existing ideas for creatures?
Then sure. So does XVI with all past FF titles. Like I said again, they have such an expansive library to choose from. They DID pick from some, and even did direct model rips.. But they didn't do enough. That can be said for any new FF releasing to be honest. There's decades of ideas.
But what I'm talking about here are unique assets, not just the ideas. Like how the Eikons are pulled from existing FF ideas and tropes, but are new designs. Hope that gives better context.
Also Akashic, although a reskin - Felt kinda lazy you know? Like I don't usually mind reskins in general. But you just take all of the existing monsters, give them a material overlay and call it good for 2x the monsters. I've never liked that in literally any game. It just sucks, and it's always lazy. They could have reskinned them to look DIFFERENT, or shown how they actually changed. Instead of just adding glowy eyes and a material overlay. It's not good, it's never been good in games. They took the lazy way out in like 90% of this game.
Edit: Sometimes I feel like CBU:III is a team that wants to prove they can cut costs, and some things tend to really suffer for it. Because they often put more effort into spectacle and sell-ability than they do actual gameplay. -
07-04-2023, 11:27 AMCStrife912
There is one aspect I’d love to know but doubt we ever would and it would sort of merge into what you’ve said. I would love to see a comparative budget between 15, 7 remake and 16 because it seems 16 managed to be way more efficient in terms of announcement to release compared to the other 2 especially 15 (im not including movie, anime and dlc just the core 10 year late game) I’m wondering if S-E gave them a smaller budget hence some decisions or if they had a blank cheque and this was the result. I know the company would be on edge after the massive investment into 15 to 7 remake which both suffered multiple issues (7 remake now has direction and focus so they are now efficient with part 3 and hopefully part 3)
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07-05-2023, 05:10 AMRitsukoSonodaHonestly if you look at the evolution of AAA titles it feels a majority of them focus their efforts into spectacle and sell-ability than actual gameplay and substance. Add to it that they also appear to be homogenizing across companies as they have been prone to trying to copy what worked for X other game that was successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
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07-05-2023, 12:23 PMTheDecayThere's plenty of actual gameplay in Elden Ring, God of War, Resident Evil, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
Even disasters like Star Wars Jedi: Survivor or Cyberpunk 2077 have more gameplay than FF16.
When you look at what wins Game of the Year awards, it's almost always games with a lot of gameplay, like Elden Ring and GoW. In the past two decades, there are only one or two times when a game that wasn't gameplay-heavy wins multiple GOTY accolades and both of them are TLOU1/2.
And in this year, we had Hogwarts Legacy and Star Wars Jedi: Survivor, both of which had more gameplay than FF16, although Hogwarts was shallower than FF16. We will also soon have Starfield which will probably have significant amounts of gameplay.
The spectacle-over-gameplay philosophy is really only limited to a few studios and publishers, SE being one.
While the trend you are describing may be correct, Square Enix is not following the same trend as other publishers, they are far worse. Final Fantasy games are 100% the Marvel movies of RPGs/action games. -
07-05-2023, 03:49 PMRitsukoSonoda
However when you compare the substance and gameplay from older games in franchises like God of War you see that those too have been trimmed to be more linear over time. Elden Ring was a case of the opposite scenario of refining and expanding on past titles as a Souls Game by applying the formula to an actual open world. Jedi Survivor is just the 2nd entry in that Jedi Souls type of game and Hogwarts Legacy was a stand alone game. They had to put more effort into things like their gameplay because they don't have a legacy built on the game's title to fall on yet. Cyberpunk2077 for the most part was just glitchy though combat aspects were found to have been trimmed or removed that were showcased in the tech demos they revealed at games events before it's launch.
Starfield I'll hold out on for a bit. I never bothered buying an Xbox X/S and Bethesda announced an "exclusive partnership" with AMD for the PC port which in the past has indicated titles not having support for Nvidia or Intel GPU specific optimizations. Kinda sad TBH because the first year or so of Bethesda titles tend to be the most interesting with all the bugs and glitches. And Bethesda saying it will be the most glitch free launch they will have ever done on a game doesn't mean much to me as that could still be more than any other buggy recent launch. :P
The primary issue IMO with FF16 is the actual game being designed as an action game. There isn't anything substantial enough to call it an RPG of any kind. Linear action games have a story and cast and generally give as many build options or more to players to progress and complete the game with. It's a switch as drastic as if the MCU decided to turn the next Avengers movie into a romcom harem anime. -
07-06-2023, 04:41 PMTheDecayGod of War PS4 reskinned a lot of enemies too but many of them are different in terms of gameplay so that they actually feel like different enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by R041
The Akashic enemies are quite literally no different from the regular counterparts other than the texture.