Dps jobs share at least 90% of their abilities

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Originally Posted by Ath192

How about an ability where a BLM instead gets a 20% dmg buff when someone is raised for the same amount of time the other person's weakness lasts? This would add excellent utility, a unique flavor, doesn't copy other jobs and would be more consistent with it's nature. Hey some casters can raise, but others can compensate for deaths on the dmg check. I also don't feel this would break the game.

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In theory that's sounds really nice, in practice it would just lead to a Healer getting ordered to regularly commit suicide so the BLM can maintain a huge damage buff with near 100% uptime.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

In theory that's sounds really nice, in practice it would just lead to a Healer getting ordered to regularly commit suicide so the BLM can maintain a huge damage buff with near 100% uptime.

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If you mean for parsing reasons no, because the buff would get subtracted

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The thing is, at what perspective do you look from? I am looking at rotations as a whole and comparing them, whilst you seem to want to strip away various things until you get to something that you can claim looks the same and then use that to say all jobs play the same. Take it to the extreme and you can claim that, since all jobs use the GCD and oGCDs, they all play the same. Obviously, this is an absurd simplification which noone should take seriously, but it should highlight the fact that, if you ignore too much of something, everything is going to look the same.

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One could take the opposite extreme and say that if you nitpick too much of something, everything is going to look different. That would be equally as absurd.

My perspective is looking at the rotations in comparison to other rotations in this game and in other similar tab targeting MMOs. I'm not stripping away or ignoring elements of melee's designs. I have acknowledged that there are differences and even said they were significant, but I am also saying that those differences fall short when looking at how rotations can be crafted at a foundational level.

We can analyze a rotation by breaking it down to its rotation design mechanics. Some examples of mechanics are: ogcds, cooldowns, debuff/buff maintenance, gauges, damage windows, procs/other rng.

In this game, a very, very prevelant mechanic is the static, linear sequence of actions. This includes combos in all of its forms, shapes, and sizes and also includes samurai sens, mudras, perfect balance, paladin magic, reaper shroud, machinist heat, dancer steps, red mage resolution, etc. You have a goal and to achieve that goal you execute an ordered sequence of actions. This is a great mechanic and I have no complaints about it. The issue is that it is sorely overused. This one mechanic - this one avenue of skill expression predominates all of the melee, tanks, and machinist rotations. While the other mechanics listed above are in these rotations as well, they are at their most rudimentary and exist just as add-ons to the rotations - artificial difficulty padding.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

If you mean for parsing reasons no, because the buff would get subtracted

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You are missing the point, Healers and Tanks objectively have lower DPS than, well, DPS, so imagine the following: The BLM is managing 10k DPS, the Healer is dealing 5k, for a total of 15k between both of them, the Healer dies and gets rezzed by the BLM with this hypotetical skill, the Healer now has Weakness, which is a -25% to Mind, and the BLM has a +20% damage buff, on paper it seem like a poor exchange, you lost 5% there, in practice, the BLM is now dealing 12k DPS, while the Healer, is now dealing 3.750k, for a total of 15.750 DPS, meaning there was a notable increase in overall party damage, for basically no cost, and this math gets worse if the Healer is an AST, whose extremely low personal damage means they'd benefit far more from sacc'ing for the BLM buff.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

You are missing the point, Healers and Tanks objectively have lower DPS than, well, DPS, so imagine the following: The BLM is managing 10k DPS, the Healer is dealing 5k, for a total of 15k between both of them, the Healer dies and gets rezzed by the BLM with this hypotetical skill, the Healer now has Weakness, which is a -25% to Mind, and the BLM has a +20% damage buff, on paper it seem like a poor exchange, you lost 5% there, in practice, the BLM is now dealing 12k DPS, while the Healer, is now dealing 3.750k, for a total of 15.750 DPS, meaning there was a notable increase in overall party damage, for basically no cost, and this math gets worse if the Healer is an AST, whose extremely low personal damage means they'd benefit far more from sacc'ing for the BLM buff.

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I mean only if you implement my idea literally which isn't the point. It's a concept right. They could do a standard 5% buff or depending on role... etc etc..

I would expect someone to finetune it so it doesn't break the game or encourage crappy behavior. If its healers it could be a 5%, Tanks a 7% and DPS a 10% if need be or whatever combo.

The biggest push I want to make is to move jobs away from each other, instead of making them all the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

How about an ability where a BLM instead gets a 20% dmg buff when someone is raised for the same amount of time the other person's weakness lasts? This would add excellent utility, a unique flavor, doesn't copy other jobs and would be more consistent with it's nature. Hey some casters can raise, but others can compensate for deaths on the dmg check. I also don't feel this would break the game.

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I do like this line of thinking. Something that mitigates the penalty of failing mechanics would be an interesting way to add some greatly needed utility and identity to jobs. Maybe an ability that can cleanse vulns/dmg downs? A job that can self-rez? A job that can survive a would-be death once? A rez that doesn't apply weakness?

An argument could be made that mechanics should be punishing and these would be overpowered, but I argue that having other ways to interact with mechanics than to just do it as intended is more fun and enjoyable. Of course, as you said, safeguards and tuning will need to be involved to not encourage undesirable behaviour or extreme cheesing.

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Originally Posted by Frodnoxx

One could take the opposite extreme and say that if you nitpick too much of something, everything is going to look different. That would be equally as absurd.

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This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

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For a tab target completely different battle system you could look at XI. Now, that is outdated however, I am a big fan of the diversity of spells mages had in that game. Even if a lot of them were useless, there were travel spells, haste, refreshes etc...

I would welcome vanity spells or abilities that you could perform that do weird alternative things. Maybe Black mage can warp, without costing gil, WHM can cast a unique Teleport for free to certain locations that takes 15 seconds to cast. Astrologian can change the weather for 5 minutes with a 24 hour cooldown ability, Now these abilities you could leave off your hotbar but could open a menu to cast them.

DRG can summon their wyvern in non-instanced combat and it just auto attacks or has a small move set. Red mage can do a show off spell that would play a rose blooming animation just because, ninja could shukuchi where upon using it they it opens a map and you can choose the location to appear in even if its on the other side with a 2 hour cooldown.

I mean, Bard has performance mode. Thats kind of cool. I'm not into it. But I appreciate it. Stuff like that.

All of these things would add to the charm of each job. Not every skill has to be tied down only to combat and raiding.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

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Not all of them are examples of a design well done, but...

The first difference is that these fixed "combos" are a kind of button-bloat that tends to be pretty unique to XIV. What most will do instead is simply to have CDs or builder-spender systems (think Kenki, but generally built faster and using GCDs for its spenders, too). But then they usually add something else atop it, such as near-fillers or procs.

Aside: Let's consider a "filler" here to be a skill of lowest priority for its broad category (e.g., ST | Cleave | AoE) and which, though it may have a recharge time, tends to produce a rotational flow that has zero downtime, at least unless mistakes are made.

Unlike true filler, near-fillers are almost always available, but are generally situational. Let's say you're a MCH who might always be able to use a long-cast, immobile Sniper Shot, but because of its low damage relative to time spent you wouldn't actually do so except if...

• playing from extreme range where there is no relative disadvantage to doing so (a unique positional context) and/or
• you had already built up stacks of a certain buff that reduces the uptime cost so much that it becomes a damage increase.

Procs, meanwhile, are just your chance effects, much like MCH used to operate around. But especially in a context that is both more CD-laden (such that you want to keep these CDs rolling with minimal wasted value from their refreshing at the same time, which often means varying your priority order) and more modular (no actions require 3+ GCDs of uptime to pay off), those can do a lot if acting on GCDs or resource-spenders.

Rotations elsewhere, therefore, may still have decently complex burst windows, but all but the simplest tends to have more considerations going on also in the short-term. E.g.,

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If I delay this thing I'd normally hit on CD for a half-second of GCD-downtime to get my auto-attack in, I'll have more resource by which to exploit the buff that attack can produce, which would allow me to refresh my DoT at its highest possible damage ramp before I swap off targets and it goes invulnerable to new attacks (though not already existent debuffs), and that buffed DoT's resource contribution will then be enough to generate enough resource per attack from my autos thereafter that I can consistently stagger-lock the add)...

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That kind of enjoyable shenanigans that some say "depends" more on contextual complexity, but ultimately just has a far higher ceiling despite a roughly equal floor to our combo-based stuff.

Probably the most similar I've felt to the combat provided by other tab-target MMOs has been high-SkS Stormblood SAM or ludicrous-SkS HW Monk / mid-speed Tornado Kick Monk in StB. Or BLM even now.

As for how they differ from one another:

• button-pathing (which, remember, is not at all linear there, and in instead tied up with synergies and purposeful desync as not to waste cooling time, etc.),
  
  
• what the overarching resource system is and how that changes opportunity costs and skill categories (an AoE skill perhaps being able to funnel resource generated per enemy struck into ST burst for higher interplay, etc.),
  
  
• and what portions of skills can serve multiple ends and what can be banked, and how therefore those should be banked (often allowing for different player-habitual approaches to combat and higher reward for knowing each encounter to that point that one can see which approach will be better in the short term, mid term, and long term.
  
  (Classes that tend to have the short-term answer also be the best overall tend to feel more aggressive, the mid term ones more measured and opportunistic, the long term ones more patient and planned-out, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

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I think the absolute biggest difference is that other MMO's with 'rotations' put more general emphasis on class reactive gameplay. Not even considering the 2min meta we have here, we're also completely devoid of situational or reactive abilities that aren't strictly 'Single Target Boss', 'AoE on Trash'. There's no situational flavor Rock, Paper, Scissors. It's all Scissors and we're Rock.

Everyone feels the same, because they ultimately have the same exact pattern, nothing ever changes because nobody reacts, or CAN react in different ways to different content. We all just.. Act. We're scripted to a very basic system of only ever really doing Damage. We don't even really have types of damage anymore..

As an example, just imagine a DPS class with utility that also has some type of AoE sludge they can throw on the ground - You're running through a dungeon, random pack spawns behind the group, so you throw sludge AoE to give time for everyone to react to it. Maybe another class can build off of you and light that sludge on fire or something.

There's just no.. Reactive or collaborative interaction. Regardless of our rotations, we still have 0 environmental or semi-fluff abilities to change up that 'rotation'. You just run forward, kill group with no thought, run forward. This is basically where other MMOs shine. :/

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

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I can only give examples from WoW as it is the only other MMO I've played to any real extent. I will give a basic explanation of the rotations' foundations, but they end up getting more and more complex at higher levels - just like in this game.

DoT management class. You have DoTs with short and staggered durations so that they don't always align in their reapplication. As the DoTs tick you have a chance to gain a resource point (capped at 5). You have a short duration DoT that costs a resource to apply. You have an ability that costs a resource that deals damage based on the number of DoTs you have active on the target.

Proc class. You have a basic cast spell. You have an instant spell that is guaranteed to crit. You have a big attack with a long cast time. Whenever you crit 2 times in a row with any spell, your next big attack is instant. Your dps cooldown causes all of your attacks to crit for a few seconds.

Rng class. You have a meter that builds over time. You spend meter on an attack that generates a resource point (capped at 5). This attack has a chance to hit twice and give another point. You spend 5 points to maintain an attack speed buff, or on a big attack. You have an ability that gives you a random buff for a while - one increases meter generation, one increases the chance that the builder attack hits twice, one that makes the builder attack generate 2 points per hit, one that makes the point spender attack also extend the duration of the attack speed buff, (other ones I don't remember). The random buff ability might give one, two, or five of these buffs.

It's true that rng plays a part in each one of these mechanics, and that they typically have builder-spenders. However, these mechanics are notably underdeveloped in the rotations in FF14 and I think incoporating them in addition to the good, and well-developed sequence mechanic that 14 uses at length would go a long way to making an even more diverse landscape of job rotations. Many of the jobs in FF14 have the foundation already, the devs have just been expanding in them in the wrong areas. The most interesting part of red mage's rotation is their balance of black and white mana, but for some reason this expansion they just tacked on another ability at the end of their scorch sequence.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Good comeback bro, I'm impressed

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Its not a "comeback" it's just a statement. If you're unhappy with the game then stop playing it. SWTOR went into a direction I didn't like so guess what I did? I unssubbed and uninstalled the game. Criticism is one thing, but if you're at the point that you're making statements that everything is boring then stop playing. If I didn't enjoy BLM so much I probably would have considered quitting this game after the SAM changes. I stuck it out because I like playing with my static group, but generally speaking, don't keep playing if you're legitimately not happy with the game.

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

That's the thing though, they don't design it more for the high end they design it for the more casual ppl that's why we are where we are. If they did design for the high end ppl might be on here saying that jobs are to hard and the like.

Dungeons are also have to cater to the more casual which is why they're usually easy. And also designed to be a "in and out" deal which is why they are the way they are.

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Yet no casual I know asks for all tanks to have gap closers, nor that all roles must have the same DPS or that MCH has Disassemble just to name a few. All of that is because of a vocal minority yet the rest has to put up with boring jobs.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Weirdly enough, casters are the outlier in this. However, a res on BLM would be too strong due to infinite mana and SMN and BLM do both still have personal defensives, which Magick Barrier can also be used for, so it isn't as one sided as you make it out to be. Infact, with Summoner's being on a 60 second cooldown and having 2 charges, it makes it a very very useful and flexible tool that the other casters do not have, couple that with an easy job to play and you can see why SMN dominates the caster spot in TOP.

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Summoner is the most played caster in TOP because of the massive amount of movement requirements, especially in P1, P4, and P6. It is not brought at all because of its tools. Tell me you don't do high-end content without telling me you don't do high-end content.

Magick Barrier is a raid-wide mit that should be seldom used as a "personal" mitigation...

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However, back to Bard, you still have not shown why homogenisation has meant that Bard doesn't get picked for TOP.

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I've never once argued this. You really need to go back to the original person I quoted and actually use your eyes.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

How about an ability where a BLM instead gets a 20% dmg buff when someone is raised for the same amount of time the other person's weakness lasts? This would add excellent utility, a unique flavor, doesn't copy other jobs and would be more consistent with it's nature. Hey some casters can raise, but others can compensate for deaths on the dmg check. I also don't feel this would break the game.

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I'm wondering why one would want this, though?

This is "utility" that can only be used in case of failure to make failure less punishing only in select conditions, to wildly varying value.

If the % buff were tuned around a job with similar or greater personal DPS, such as a BLM benefiting from the death of an equally-geared & -skilled SAM or another BLM, that's not too awful --though still neither thematic nor particularly lucrative-- but if it's tuned instead around benefiting from, say, a healer, then you could actually end up with a net increase to raid damage from sacrificing an AST.

And for ultimately what purpose? It's not as if BLM has some 'avenger' or 'soul-siphoning' theme that needs fleshing out, nor that such would even particularly fit with the themes it has.

Moreover, the rDPS advantage of saving a healer MP and uptime by a SMN or RDM handling the rez anyways is pretty damn conditional, whereas this wouldn't be. Should BLM ultimately contribute, via its own buffed damage, greater and/or more reliable rDPS advantages in shit-hit-the-fan situations than either of the other casters?


I'm not opposed to the more general idea, but I also don't see any reason for it, nor any connection to the what BLM is, has been, or would be a low-hanging fruit for it.

Things are the way they are because the game is designed so any combination of tank/healer/dps/dps can clear 4-man content and any combination of tank x2 / healer x 2 / DPS x4 can clear raid content. The only way that works is if the classes are relatively homogenous. It has to be "plug and play" otherwise, we'd be forced to play certain jobs and the playerbase doesn't want that. *** Part of the reason why we see these burst windows on all jobs is because the jobs that didn't line up with those burst windows back in Stormblood fell out of favor. The solution by SE was to just change all of the other jobs to fit those burst windows. Which ultimately results in many jobs playing similarly.

DPS definitely aren't as cookie-cutter as tanks. There is a lot more flavor with those jobs. Tanks though... yeah, they are pretty much a template tank job with different weapons on for glamour. Nothing more.



*** Note: I think it is ridiculous by the way. The whole point of this game is we can switch jobs almost whenever we want. They SHOULD make it so some content requires a certain tank, or healer or type of DPS. It isn't hard to level a job to 90. Make us utilize our various jobs.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Things are the way they are because the game is designed so any combination of tank/healer/dps/dps can clear 4-man content and any combination of tank x2 / healer x 2 / DPS x4 can clear raid content. The only way that works is if the classes are relatively homogenous.

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Not disagreeing with you, just this particular point, to be clear.

Except that's not remotely true at the level of leniency on offer, especially for any content that doesn't explicitly use premades.

And even without premades, they could literally just choose instead to let people swap to any job of appropriate ilvl even when in an instance.

Yes, back in Stormblood you ran comps, not jobs, if one wanted to play optimally, but rarely was that want ever also a need. It was instead a way to make up for leeches -- those who hop into a Clear or Farm party having clearly forgotten how to the majority of mechanics and thereby dying constantly, often with Alliance Raid level performance even before getting Weakness.

If we could just form parties faster in the first place and reduce the typical stress involved in PuG progression as to further build up its player population (be that by way of filtering that matchmaking and/or rewarding finer milestones, or even giving fewer tools for revenged to those who haven't prepared to even the basic extent they signed up, easing reforms after kicking someone who truly and obviously has no business being in that party yet), those 'perfect' comps would never have been worth waiting around to form.

The game just isn't hard enough, nor was even the height of differences in job characteristics/profiles (not just errant tuning) great enough, to require such homogeneity. Even back in Stormblood, the first Ultimate clear was by an odd-ball comp, featuring a then laughed-at job (DRK).

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Originally Posted by dspguy

*** Note: I think it is ridiculous by the way. The whole point of this game is we can switch jobs almost whenever we want. They SHOULD make it so some content requires a certain tank, or healer or type of DPS. It isn't hard to level a job to 90. Make us utilize our various jobs.

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I wouldn't go so far as to say that a fight should require a certain tank, etc., but there should definitely be, say, some mechanic that Tank A makes very noticeably easier, another than Tank B handles better, etc. Otherwise 100% agreed.

job design is on fire in the dumpster since SHB. the game is literally devolving. next xpac will probably have no positionals and hit boxes that reach the edge of space. everyone will have only one 2 min cd. it will be braindead but still slow gcd because the games built on a bad netcode that cant handle anything faster.

I think the Job Diversity would had mattered more if the Monsters actually had some kind of weakness/Resistances toward said jobs for Normal Content to Extreme in all its forms (but disabled on Savage and Ultimate in my opinion).

Like Avian Monsters are weak against Machinist & Bards.

Maybe then Jobs would not need any particular work done on its abilities, but just give them all passive buffs and debuffs depending on the monsters.

I also think getting rid of Elemental Properties was not a good idea way back in the past, but if they ever choose to reintroduce it again make it as separate Materia slot system that is apart from the normal Battle Materia. Eureka actually had a good idea there when it came back in that form.

What the issue I see here is not allowing players have custom builds with fun substats to play with, like maybe I want to make a Machinist with a lightning subtstat built into it.

I don't think the Job's current Battle abilities need to be changed at this point, but just give substats and passive buffs/debuffs depending on the situation of the battle.

Its just one work-around I can see, maybe some of you all might have better ideas than I do.

edit -

Ultimately though what group is actually giving Feedback to the Devs that seem to be devolving our MMO over the years? That is what I like to know.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I think the Job Diversity would had mattered more if the Monsters actually had some kind of weakness/Resistances toward said jobs for Normal Content to Extreme in all its forms (but disabled on Savage and Ultimate in my opinion).

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I agree with the broader intention, but not the approach.

Jobs needn't feel different just because they're comparatively useless against A and comparatively useful against B (and that often only because others are locked out of really interacting with B while the job in question, at least, isn't so stripped of gameplay in that setting).

There's plenty of room also for jobs to differentiate their capacities in less rock-paper-scissors but nonetheless highly noticeable ways.

To use the example of flying enemies, Air Anchor should be able to bring a flier down to the ground so melee can assault it, but a Dragoon certainly shouldn't need that; they're a melee job who... nonetheless literally hunt dragons out of the sky. Similarly, just timing a Fell Cleave for when the enemy dips into range to smash its head into the floor just as it hits you would do the trick just fine.

The difference shouldn't be so much in who can do what, but instead in the lenience:

• How responsive is the tool in that situation / for that purpose? [How much preemptive timing is necessary?]
• How broadly can it be used? [How much must one set it up through prior actions, baiting, movement, etc.?]
• How powerful is the effect? How long does it last? [Will it be enough on its own? How quickly must we capitalize on it?]

The problem is that doing more than just lock-outs (i.e., in making X useless and Y thereby comparatively useful) takes a lot more design depth, in a technical/mechanical sense.

Doing things with enemy mass so that Monk and, especially, heavy weapons wielders like DRK and WAR have an advantage in staggering enemies and AST can help lighten them as to let upward-striking skills like Full Thrust, Inner Beast, Shadow Fang, and The Forbidden Chakra punt enemies into airtime... obviously wouldn't be easy even before accounting for the ragdoll physics required.

Still, I'd love to see what a game that looks like it has a decent physics engine for a change, instead of a mockery of one, could do in that regard -- pipedream or no.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I agree with the broader intention, but not the approach.

Jobs needn't feel different just because they're comparatively useful useless against A and only because comparatively useful against B (and that often only because others are locked out of really interacting with B while the job in question, at least, isn't so stripped of gameplay in that setting).

There's plenty of room also for jobs to differentiate their capacities in less rock-paper-scissors but nonetheless highly noticeable ways.

To use the example of flying enemies, Air Anchor should be able to bring a flier down to the ground so melee can assault it, but a Dragoon certainly shouldn't need that; they're melee... who literally hunt dragons out of the sky. Similarly, just timing a Fell Cleave for when the enemy dips into range just as it hits you would do the trick just fine.

The problem is that doing more than just lock-outs to make X useless and Y thereby comparatively useful takes a lot more design depth, in a technical/mechanical sense. Doing things with enemy mass so that Monk and, especially, heavy weapons wielders like DRK and WAR have an advantage in staggering enemies and AST can help lighten them as to let upward-striking skills like Full Thrust, Inner Beast, Shadow Fang, and The Forbidden Chakra punt enemies into airtime... obviously wouldn't be easy even before accounting for the ragdoll physics required.

Still, I'd love to see what a game that looks like it has a decent physics engine for a change, instead of a mockery of one, could do in that regard -- pipedream or no.

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Honestly whatever it takes for Jobs to have a bit more identity again, I can't stand how it is right now. Only The Freaking Blue Mage actually has its identity in its own unique way which is hilarious at this point.

Sorry, had forgotten to edit the phone-based post before and its worrying (stroke-like) number of typos. Corrected:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I agree with the broader intention, but not the approach.

Jobs needn't feel different just because they're comparatively useless against A and comparatively useful against B (and that often only because others are locked out of really interacting with B while the job in question, at least, isn't so stripped of gameplay in that setting).

There's plenty of room also for jobs to differentiate their capacities in less rock-paper-scissors but nonetheless highly noticeable ways.

To use the example of flying enemies, Air Anchor should be able to bring a flier down to the ground so melee can assault it, but a Dragoon certainly shouldn't need that; they're a melee job who... nonetheless literally hunt dragons out of the sky. Similarly, just timing a Fell Cleave for when the enemy dips into range to smash its head into the floor just as it hits you would do the trick just fine.

The difference shouldn't be so much in who can do what, but instead in the lenience:

• How responsive is the tool in that situation / for that purpose? [How much preemptive timing is necessary?]
• How broadly can it be used? [How much must one set it up through prior actions, baiting, movement, etc.?]
• How powerful is the effect? How long does it last? [Will it be enough on its own? How quickly must we capitalize on it?]

The problem is that doing more than just lock-outs (i.e., in making X useless and Y thereby comparatively useful) takes a lot more design depth, in a technical/mechanical sense.

Doing things with enemy mass so that Monk and, especially, heavy weapons wielders like DRK and WAR have an advantage in staggering enemies and AST can help lighten them as to let upward-striking skills like Full Thrust, Inner Beast, Shadow Fang, and The Forbidden Chakra punt enemies into airtime... obviously wouldn't be easy even before accounting for the ragdoll physics required.

Still, I'd love to see what a game that looks like it has a decent physics engine for a change, instead of a mockery of one, could do in that regard -- pipedream or no.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

Honestly whatever it takes for Jobs to have a bit more identity again, I can't stand how it is right now. Only The Freaking Blue Mage actually has its identity in its own unique way which is hilarious at this point.

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Same, though I can't quite agree with even BLU having an identity of its own, unless one's referring to the meta-identity of... being a joke. It has among the worst playflows, via the Moon Flute opener or otherwise, most of its cards are wasted non-options, and it lacks any undermechanics to salvage its eclectic diarrhea of a kit into something cohesive beyond one extra flavor of "Stick the things in the amp windows."

I'd love a real, fleshed out (rather than tossed-out) BLU. I'd enjoy 'd main the hell out of it. But it's not that.

And that doubly sucks because BLU could have been an excuse to offer horizontal progression of sorts to every job: To let Monk follow or mix-and-match particular paths (Shadow or Light, for instance); to let Dragoons find their favored enemies and affinities among draconids; to let Machinists actually build different devices; etc. That could have been a far more fun and player-felt and world-constructing means of customization that'd fit XIV rather than just being another borrowed-but-garbled/bloated WoW mechanic.

Alas, oh well, I guess. This is what the devs have settled upon, and the longer it's left, the less alterable it'll likely ever be.

I think the actual problem is more in how the current job design doesn't allow any variations, I'm just going to just talk about raid buffs as a example here, they're one of the biggest issues rn.

As I see it the main issue with Raid Buffs or "team damage" boosting is how formulaic it has become, I'm talking about the 120 raid buffs, which leaves no room for uniqueness you just press it every 120 seconds and forget about it, Old Trick attack for example worked better with Minute jobs but didn't really work poorly with the 120 Jobs, But a way to solve this and make raid buffs feel more useful and unique to the jobs is to 1. Make some "partner" buffs, such as dragon sight/cards, where your choice actually matters, or having buffs outside the 120 window, where it's a actual choice if you hold or not, as sometimes synching up buffs might be better other times it might be better to use the buff and get more uses. Not to mention how forcing 120 raid buffs means that all jobs now must be Burst based, Even if theirs room for uniqueness it's throwing away a lot of jobs that could be less burst based such as Paladin who used to have two phases of burst now it's boring like other tanks in it's burst.

Melee DPS in general, needs to feel more unique imo, at least with Phys ranged you got a mix of proc based jobs and Rotational based jobs, With casters they all feel very different and all have mobility issues, where SMN is more free, BLM suffers from unplanned movement, RDM has Melee aspects and some movement issues like BLM. With Melee Dps instead you have 5 jobs that follow a set rotation, with large boss sizes and no room to optimise, all jobs (apart from drg) having the same raid buffs basically with samurai being "selfish" It's funny how the jobs with the most classes feels like it has the least variety to me