Give me your most unhinged Job take that you still genuinely believe in.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

XIVCombo users on their way to reduce as much gameplay from the game as possible and unironically believe that it's healthy for playing a video game

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Not for nothing but if the complexity of this game comes from hitting 123 instead of 111 then I think there are bigger issues we need to talk about.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Not for nothing but if the complexity of this game comes from hitting 123 instead of 111 then I think there are bigger issues we need to talk about.

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There's also more prominent problems than something like basic 1-2-3's, though. That's why I don't look at them as a core issue because they function as they stand..a baseline introduction for the job.

SB lilies weren't bad. They just needed Misery to be perfect but they at least did more for WHM than current Afflatus Spells do.

Tanks have too many buttons to press.

Not every job should have a completely static predetermined flowchart for perfect dps. There should be WAY more jobs with truly dynamic rotations. The jobs that have RNG now should make that RNG way more consequential than just swapping your next GCD out for its B variant (looking at rdm and brd. Dnc is fine).

I'm fine with mnk and sam existing, but can we have ONE melee whose optimal rotation isn't written in stone ability-by-ability?

After how hard these devs have fucked over the healing gameplay situation, and how the average DF player is worse than Trusts, a healer who queues any roulette at any time should be given a free commend and 100k for even bothering to play the job at this point. I'm at the point where I'd rather wait 20 minutes as a dps than queue in instantly as a healer and spends 25 minutes wiping ass for people who play like they're blindfolded jobskippers. Nah.

1-2-3 combos aren't gameplay and most MMOs with job design far superior to FFXIV's have figured that out. Having three separate animations in your basic combo is fine, laudable even, but they don't deserve separate buttons if there's no reason to ever hit them in a different order. The two spaces saved by combo folding are better served with actions that actually impact your gameplay. I've never heard anyone play the FF7 remake and proclaim "gee, I really wish Cloud's autoattack 3-swing combo was on different buttons, that would make this combat so much more engaging". Because it wouldn't. Because 1-2-3 combos are effectively autoattack filler. The playerbase should be agitating for way more engagement, not defending the lack of PVP combos in PVE. They're boring.

ETA:
Think of it this way. If folding your base combo into one button makes you think "oh no! You'd be turning my gameplay into a one-button boring spamfest! Why are you trying to make the game as boring as possible?", is that a commentary on the inherent awfulness of combo folding, or a damning indictment of how boring the jobs already are if that's all it takes to reduce them to snoozy spamfests?

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I don't know if this is unhinged or not but Warrior shouldn't be healing people with nascent flash nor shake it off, IDM the self sustain aspects (Other then in aoe) but I don't really think Warrior should be seen as healer tank.

Idk, raid wide barriers and healing seem like something a Paladin or maybe even a Dark knight would do, But warrior should be about intimidating the enemy as a raid wide instead of protecting and group healing xD.

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I don't mind Shake it Off. I think it fits if you see it as the rage of the warrior and diving head first into combat gives your allies the fortitude to ignore pain a bit.

However I do agree Warrior shouldn't be able to heal others through violence. If anything....change the warriors heals into shields for themselves only with the exception of Shake it Off being the only way they can heal/shield others. Warriors should be too angry to die so they "shield heal themeslves" by ignoring pain completely.

If I were to assign my preferences on tank identities....

Warrior: Self damage reduction. Too angry to die.
Paladin: Group damage shielding. The knight protector.
Dark Knight: Life drain and debuff. Embrace the all-consuming void.
Gunbreaker: Dodge/parry tank. Wears the least armor, lightest on their feet.

I feel like this thread is just another walk in the park for me as the majority of my regular posts are very likely considered unhinged. I like walks in the park though.

- Healers are fine as they are, and the changes in ShB to them was exactly what they needed.
- Current AST cards is the best iteration of the mechanic to date. Though they still need some work to rid all RNG mitigation from it.
- Finish the job and remove the remainder of positional attacks from the game.
- Kaiten was a tacked on skill that served no purpose other than weeb service
- WHM's gimmick is being the 'no gimmick' healer
- Housing does not need to be instanced
- SCH actually needs its flaws to be on the level. Correcting SCH issues and drawbacks would just make it the most busted, OP job in the game
- NIN is friggin awesome!

Wow. I somehow feel lighter.

"Quick nock" not being called "nock nock" is Koji's biggest failure.

Clemency, Vercure, and SMN Physick should not exist. At all.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I see this take a lot, but I disagree Healers are required to use DPS skills theirs not a lot of outgoing damage.

>If healers actually had to make a choice between Healing GCD's or DPS GCD's this point would be alot better, but healers being able to practically manage all healing through OGCD's really hurts healer design for me.

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I agree with this so much. It feels like healing was made backwards. Our main, and most powerful, heals should have cast times and anything instant should be either an emergency small healing/mitigation ability to buy time or a buff/debuff ability.

As an aside, I feel red mages were designed backwards too. Instead of casting spells to build up to a powerful melee combo, red mages should be using melee attacks to build up to a powerful spell sequence.

Let them keep their abilities to charge into battle and disengage and have those abilities be on separate timers. That way they can have the mobility to be both a melee and a caster.

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

Clemency, Vercure, and SMN Physick should not exist. At all.

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I mostly agree. Although, SMN Physic is so weak, I don't see it being a game balance issue needing to be address by S.E.

It would be nice to have it swapped out for that spell (whose name escapes me) SMN used to have which allowed them to heal their summons.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I mostly agree. Although, SMN Physic is so weak, I don't see it being a game balance issue needing to be address by S.E.

It would be nice to have it swapped out for that spell (whose name escapes me) SMN used to have which allowed them to heal their summons.

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I actually went back and added SMN Physick in with an edit because it's so weak that I forgot it even exists!

BLM is gross, boring, bloated by abilities with terrible naming conventions that also don't have a natural ability evolution ie Fire II -> High Fire II, but Fire -> ?. No instead, here, Fire III. And then here, Fire IV. ?????
For skills that escalate and are related to each other so closely, the naming conventions are just a travesty.
If I had my way, it'd get the same treatment that both MNK and SMN got.
It's also very late and I'm half tired and my anger may be misdirected.
Probably not. Might have more to be unhinged about towards BLM when I wake up refreshed.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

BLM is gross, boring, bloated by abilities with terrible naming conventions that also don't have a natural ability evolution ie Fire II -> High Fire II, but Fire -> ?. No instead, here, Fire III. And then here, Fire IV. ?????
For skills that escalate and are related to each other so closely, the naming conventions are just a travesty.
If I had my way, it'd get the same treatment that both MNK and SMN got.
It's also very late and I'm half tired and my anger may be misdirected.
Probably not. Might have more to be unhinged about towards BLM when I wake up refreshed.

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The fact that spells do not follow the FF naming convention of spell > spell-a > spell-aga > spell-aja kinda grinds an old coot like me.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

The fact that spells do not follow the FF naming convention of spell > spell-a > spell-aga > spell-aja kinda grinds an old coot like me.

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God, same. It's not that I think the concern about the names maybe being confusing to some is totally invalid, but like... I feel like the average player probably could've put it together just by virtue of... idk, maybe the order they learn the spells in lol??

HW gunmage was better than our current machinist.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

The fact that spells do not follow the FF naming convention of spell > spell-a > spell-aga > spell-aja kinda grinds an old coot like me.

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Except it's been explained in the past repeatedly why they did not do that, because it was exactly that idea of 'ga'/'ra'/ etc giving the expectation that the spells progress in potency in set tiers, rather than each spell being unique with unique effects as it is here. Also, there is the little fact that the ra/ga naming convention only started in the English-language FF games with FFVIII, the three main titles localized into English before then (FFI, IV and VII) used.. the number system (the original PS1 release of FF Tactics also used the spell number system). And before you pass judgement, FFXI actually uses both, leading to silly and confusing spell names like 'Firega VI'.

Personally I prefer the number system due to the aforementioned early tradition of the series, but that's just me, your preferences aren't any less valid for what it's worth, I was just wanted to point out why it is like it is.

Scouting gear shouldn't exist. You can get gear for single tank and use it for 3 other jobs, but get fucked if you want to use your NIN gear for any other job.

Merge Striking+Maiming into one set and make NIN use Aiming, it uses dexterity anyway. Tank/Heal/Melee/PhysRanged+NIN/Caster will have a nice and fair split of 4/4/4/4/3. 7.0 will give us tank and very likely a caster, which would give us 5/4/4/4/4. In 8.0, we'll get healer and most likely phys ranged, which means 5/5/4/5/4 and so on.

This will address unfairness of gear sharing. Nothing of value will be lost, Maiming is just recolored Fending, and Scouting is just recolored Aiming. With less work to do, they might even start making new models for healers that aren't just recolored Caster's.

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

Clemency, Vercure, and SMN Physick should not exist. At all.

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Clemency and Vercure are fine.

SMN's Physick though, maybe they should give the Job a trait that makes it scale off of INT instead of MND like Vercure does and with similar MP cost to it. Make it Phoenix themed as well.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Except it's been explained in the past repeatedly why they did not do that, because it was exactly that idea of 'ga'/'ra'/ etc giving the expectation that the spells progress in potency in set tiers, rather than each spell being unique with unique effects as it is here.

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This does not make any sense.

Why would "Ra / Ga / Ja" cause "the expectation that the spells progress in potency in set tiers, rather than each spell being unique with unique effects as it is here"...

...but "II / III / IV" supposedly does not cause that?

If anything, it would be the exact opposite. "Fira, Firaga, Firaja" would be intuitively-interpreted as unique spells, whereas "Fire II / Fire III / Fire IV" would be intuitively-interpreted as a chain of direct upgrades.

The number system actually makes it more confusing and inaccurate in XIV's context.

...as evidenced by the periodic posts on Discords and Subreddits asking things like, "I just got Fire 3 but it's really slow, am I supposed to be casting this instead of Fire 1?", or the time-honoured tale of "Just got out of Dungeon run with a healer spamming Cure 3 to heal the Tank".

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I agree with this so much. It feels like healing was made backwards. Our main, and most powerful, heals should have cast times and anything instant should be either an emergency small healing/mitigation ability to buy time or a buff/debuff ability.

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oGCD heals are not all built the same. We do have heals that just strictly heal the target for x amount such as Lustrate, Tetra, and Aspected Benefic, but there are situational oGCD heals that allow healers to optimize their use if they know the content they are in. Heals like this are Summon Seraph, Earthly Star, Macrocosmos, Liturgy, or Panhaima all have rewarding returns when used optimally instead of in a whack a mole fashion. You're just not going to find a lot of these situations in casual content. And there's the conundrum. In order to make more use of these skills in normal mode instances, the dev team will need to increase the threat level.

Making GCD heals more powerful is essentially the same thing as those situational oGCD heals in the sense that healers would be required to know the content they are in in order to make good use of them. Standard oGCD heals are support heals believe it or not. They support both DPS output as well as slow reaction times from the healer. They are sufficient enough to support the group in normal mode content because the threat level is so low.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

oGCD heals are not all built the same.

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Too unhinged for me.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

The fact that spells do not follow the FF naming convention of spell > spell-a > spell-aga > spell-aja kinda grinds an old coot like me.

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Real Gs use -za spells.
https://i.imgur.com/MDDowfp.png

Here's unhinged, the dev teams obsession with balance, and their intense focus on designing all jobs to perform optimally in a short fight against a single enemy in an arena has lead to poor job design and relatively shallow play all around. Forget about making sure everything plays the same in savage and design jobs to be fun.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Too unhinged for me.

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Ikr?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Here's unhinged, the dev teams obsession with balance, and their intense focus on designing all jobs to perform optimally in a short fight against a single enemy in an arena has lead to poor job design and relatively shallow play all around. Forget about making sure everything plays the same in savage and design jobs to be fun.

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This isn't unhinged. Not for these forums. This is very much go with flow of the general complaints stated around here where the common theme is how poorly the game is designed, and isn't fun.

If you want to be unhinged or to rock the boat, you need to make statements that are contradictory to those views. Your posts won't receive many likes. Many will provide resistance and call out your blasphemy. But at least your views will be your own.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Here's unhinged, the dev teams obsession with balance, and their intense focus on designing all jobs to perform optimally in a short fight against a single enemy in an arena has lead to poor job design and relatively shallow play all around. Forget about making sure everything plays the same in savage and design jobs to be fun.

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Tbf the playerbase can be pretty dumb when it comes to jobs and if its "not up to par" they will exclude it so making them work in savage is the right choice, just the 2 minute meta sucks making them actually the same. And probably wouldn't be saying that if they did design them purely for fun but your job sucks so you cant get invited to any parties

My unhinged take? Dark knight is fine with its current kit they just need to be more creative with their skills, like making delirium have you wield 2 swords and change your main combo while using bloodspiller. Same with summoner

On the topic of homogenization, in some ways it's pretty impressive that everything is so similar output wise while still having some differences... but I can see there are a lot of similarities.

One major problem that encourages it is the later content where meta is important due to difficulty- like PvP when synced to PvE, forcing awkward balance changes as seen in games prior to separating them, end game (hard) content does the same to general content. Too much flavor in an ultimate setting means bye bye some jobs.

A blasphemous idea of a what if appeared to me, and that was what if there was full on chocobo tail feathers to the walls 'limited' ('WoL mode') which was the core for all jobs and then balanced distillations of those ideas for PvP and 'End Game' PvE. All normal / MSQ using far looser balance in order to capture high amount of gameplay variety / roleplay. Now none would be intentionally made to be useless but there would very well be 'this does better on that'. Certainly though it would be weird in some ways to do some MSQ primals and then get the savage of the very same primal but engaging them with a different kit... it doesn't feel weird in PvP, imo, but given that we're now discussing easy PvE content with high variety / differences and then highly balanced highly technical PvE.. that there is a difference I feel is harder to ignore.

If feeling crazy also keeping PvP and 'Savage / Mythic' separate from each other. Meaning potentially extremely high skill ceilings being possible (Hard Mode PvE balanced but also very technical).

Though to note I still believe in the rolling mountain, and the 'hero / WoL' forms would come into the content at some point.. a different form of echo. May even have modifiers at that point of wild west ideas, though i'd suggest FFIX style with preset loadouts so end game players can have their goof off roulette and then their meta builds (where you can only use 1% of them lol).

Sounds terrifying, but also tempting in that the majority of content, casual at least, would be made to be unique, fun, and highly thematic with less regard to perfect balance (not 'no' regard, just a lot less). Yet still having an avenue for the people who seek that specific content with natural human behaviors that will unintentionally and intentionally end up forcing very tight very consistent builds by both players and devs.

Alternatively building high flavor but also making it even easier to level and maintain multiple jobs and build a game around the idea that changing jobs is expected, potentially even within the same content (like you make it to a half way in a savage raid, can change jobs at the camp). May bring sub jobs back at that point. Such that high end players would be expected to follow the metas that are created but its reasonable to achieve and intentionally shifting with multiple job options to hopefully satisfy people as it shifts from each content. A sort of modernized FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

Tbf the playerbase can be pretty dumb when it comes to jobs and if its "not up to par" they will exclude it so making them work in savage is the right choice, just the 2 minute meta sucks making them actually the same. And probably wouldn't be saying that if they did design them purely for fun but your job sucks so you cant get invited to any parties

My unhinged take? Dark knight is fine with its current kit they just need to be more creative with their skills, like making delirium have you wield 2 swords and change your main combo while using bloodspiller. Same with summoner

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jobs have been and will continue to be excluded from parties for not being META, might as well make them fun.

SMN/SCH weapons should be 10x bigger and do obscene auto-attack damage.

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Originally Posted by Dorito_Burrito

SMN/SCH weapons should be 10x bigger and do obscene auto-attack damage.

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tfw the boss keeps downing the DRG you just rezzed
https://i.imgur.com/pq3lVnS.png

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

jobs have been and will continue to be excluded from parties for not being META, might as well make them fun.

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This goes back into people being dumb and not the jobs being the problem there. There's always going to be a meta but if there's a big discrepancy like there was in like HW thats when there's problems, which is why i said its the 2 minute being the main problem

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

What was the point of getting rid of TP if we just replaced it with a more convoluted gauge on every single job that basically does the exact same thing? You could've just had the TP gauge start at 0 and have our abilities build it up just like we do now.....

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Careful, that might be too close to the FFXI and we can't have fun ideas that were already used there.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

We have enough Jobs.
What we need now is Balance.
Some real fresh tweeks and reworks to freshen and truely diversify gameplay would be amazing

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The last thing we need is more balance. We need more diversity and fun.

Is there anything remotely positive in the job system, apart from being able to change on the fly? Your exact rotation is unclear until you look it up online, nobody knows which gear to pursue until someone calculates it. Rotations are so prone to desync that you literally have to use tools to sync your framerate/network to achieve proper performance. Your rotation changes when you scale down, and all jobs have the same positional penalty that exists merely to spice up the otherwise dull rotation. Ranged jobs always have something in their rotation that requires them to stand still for an excessive amount of time or move into melee range, and there's always at least one ability with a cast bar. Please, tell me one thing that is genuinely enjoyable and well designed in the current jobs.

Give me back rez as a paladin.

White Mage should basically be Black Mage-lite in terms of gameplay. I double checked the lore and the fact that both arts were banned due to the White and Black Mages depleting the world of all its aether (Earth, Wind, Water, Light, Fire, Lightning, Ice, Darkness) means it would make perfect sense for the two jobs to mirror each other like that rather than double down on turning White Mage into "Glare spamming Light Mage."

White Mage should have the ley-line mechanic, fight me.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Is there anything remotely positive in the job system, apart from being able to change on the fly?

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There is when you can think for yourself.

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Your exact rotation is unclear until you look it up online

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I've always been able to figure out the rotations for the jobs I play on my own. I then compare them to the rotations I find online which have miniscule differences if any that honestly don't make much of a difference with damage output

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nobody knows which gear to pursue until someone calculates it.

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BiS

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Rotations are so prone to desync that you literally have to use tools to sync your framerate/network to achieve proper performance.

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If such an issue exists, PS4 players such as myself don't have access to these tools putting us at a disadvantage. Yet, you don't hear any of us complaining.

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Your rotation changes when you scale down, and all jobs have the same positional penalty that exists merely to spice up the otherwise dull rotation

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No, you can't have all your abilities in lower level content. Besides, your rotation is boring, remember? And positionals suck, and very likely to be done away with next expansion. This is an antiquated system. Bosses are quite large and turn too often on their own volition. If by "spice up" you mean make fights hair pulling and frustrating, then I totally get you.

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Ranged jobs always have something in their rotation that requires them to stand still for an excessive amount of time or move into melee range, and there's always at least one ability with a cast bar.

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You enjoy "spicing" things up with an outdated system like positionals that makes no sense to keep around, yet shun what actually brings an element of challenge into a fight that can be circumvented through experience? Pardon me when I say, "what the actual F?"

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Please, tell me one thing that is genuinely enjoyable and well designed in the current jobs.

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Why? It will just be dismissed. Besides, what do you mean by "genuinely enjoyable"? Seriously, what the hell does that even mean? If I say something like I enjoy using Macrocosmos on AST when bosses use abilities that reduce everyone to 1hp. Is that genuine? How about when I say using Shukuchi mid-burst rotation on NIN so I can safely go into TCJ is very satisfying. Is that genuine? And if I say DNC's animations look absolutely gorgeous and are mostly uninterrupted by optimal use of their kit. Is that genuine? All of those examples are true from my perspective. If you say all those things suck and are not fun from your PoV, does this make that any less true?

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Ranged jobs always have something in their rotation that requires them to stand still for an excessive amount of time or move into melee range, and there's always at least one ability with a cast bar.

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Bard has no abilities with a cast or channel bar, unless you count limit breaks. Machinist's only channel ability is Flamethrower, which is basically useless, so there's no reason at all to bother with it. Dancer is the only ranged job that has to get closer than AoE heal range for a few skills to hit, and it has En Avant to help get in and out of range; and its only channel is Improvisation, which is a utility skill, not part of the rotation.