Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasingstars
In specific, particular and rare cases, it is possible to ghost the shield that gives the carbuncle, there has also been more than one post on the forum that testifies to ghosting.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...st#post5983340
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...y_smn_but_now/
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ameplay/page11
The queuing system still exists on the pet, things are never instantaneous if you notice, the shield doesn't come as soon as you call it but there is still a little delay, but this is really short. Same thing bahamut, bahamut does 4 attacks he does them in constant timelines to never get to ghosting point. If you put the automatic attack on the carbuncle it enters its queue and if you give it the teleport command but it is not instantaneous because it has the attack queued, maybe it will kill you (for example).
Mine is more of a concern. If in practice it doesn't cause problems, then I have nothing to object to, but if instead the auto attack could create problems, I much prefer to decide when the pet attacks. I'd rather die through my own fault than an AI's fault.
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03-07-2023, 07:06 PMGgwppino
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03-08-2023, 06:57 AMPicker
Yea don’t overthink the 1 button job lol
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03-08-2023, 12:54 PMDenji
i am honestly offended at how clunky the egiglam command nonsense is and how they forced the ugly glowrat (which, i know, is my subjective opinion) down our throats. when i have to start memorizing commands to change my summon or use macros my eyes just glaze the hell over.
i really hate this. -
03-09-2023, 11:56 AMAyer2015
If we were to have all elemental 6 summons, I think having 3 with cast times and higher potency and 3 with instant cast times with lower potency would be a reasonable path forward. Trading mobility for higher dps.
Personally I would like to see Aetherflow and all the associated skills removed from SMN, including both physic and raise. It all feels like a relic of what once was. Rework Phoenix to be a support summon on a CD that applies an AOE regen on summon and enables 1 aoe raise, or 1 aoe heal. -
03-09-2023, 07:02 PMGgwppinoI agree. Maybe 3 summons with instant seems exaggerated to me, but if we only keep Titan and Garuda with instant to use them optimally in agitated phases, it is ideal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
Aetherflow doesn't bother me that much. I would only combine aoe buttons with single target ones. It seems absurd to me that for one-minute ogcds that have the same concept there should be 4 buttons. Sure if they give me the choice between Aetheflow and a brand new smn mechanic that makes it unique, then clearly Aetherflow might as well die, but if they can coexist, I'd save 2 aetherflow buttons.
Physic, I haven't had it in bar for 4 years lol
So you would remove the phoenix from rotation right? I don't mind, but maybe if it is a gcd it becomes too niche. -
03-10-2023, 07:50 AMAyer2015I find having a quasi-support summon odd to be tied to a dps roation. To me at least, having it as a skill with an appropriate CD would make more sense. Also, it would would bring existing skills more in line with with the SMN theme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
There is a lot of room for SMN to be refined now. I like the direction they have gone with the job in 6.0 thus far. -
03-10-2023, 02:07 PMty_taurus
On the topic of carbuncle, I am not bothered by him not attacking and can actually get behind the idea of him being a summoner's personal support pet; however, that comes with the caveat that he actually offers support (i.e. having more than just Radiant Aegis).
Ideally, what would really clean up the clunk of relying on carbuncle would be fixing whatever issue restricts a player from having more than 1 pet at a time. If carbuncle is not forcibly dismissed for each summon animation, it really opens up the door for him to be a genuine sidekick for you. This is 100% doable, it's just a matter of identifying the time required and making time for that task. Even if this would not come to fruition, I would focus on the following changes for the next expansion.
1. Return Searing Light to Carbuncle. If having more than 1 pet at a time cannot be fixed for whatever reason, I'd still make this change as it feels thematically appropriate since it originally belonged to carbuncle anyway. If absolutely needed, introduce a slightly weaker version of Searing Light (like a 2% buff instead of 3%) that replaces Searing Light if carbuncle is not in play. Optimally, you need to time it before summoning bahamut, but if you mess up, you aren't forced to delay the action till bahamut is dismissed.
2. Introduce a new action usable only when you have no gemstones to summon with (no ifrit, titan, or garuda). This action commands carbuncle to grant you a random gemstone and allows you to more effectively delay your next bahamut or phoenix summon. Additionally, you get another action that requires at least 1 gemstone be available. This action commands carbuncle to deliver a moderately potent attack by consuming all your gemstones. The potency increases the more gemstones you had. The potency is not worth the entire summon phase, but allows you to dump your gemstones if you were forced to hold onto a summon or two and need to go into your next bahamut/phoenix window.
3. Lastly, add a new action that harkens back to Alphinaud's moonstone carbuncle's field. This would be a cooldown centered around your carbuncle that increases HP restored to allies that stand within it; additionally, while you stand within it, the cast time of Resurrection is reduced to 0 seconds.
Something like this would make your carbuncle actually feel like a support pet to you and help you with survivability, recovery, and adding flexibility to your rotation. -
03-10-2023, 03:06 PMGgwppinoTrue, but since there are already 1/2 healers to heal, except in solo content, I don't see why a dps should "waste" gcd to heal instead of doing his job. If it were indispensable, therefore without smn you don't clear the content, then it would also make sense, but if the smn support is not indispensable it would be an end in itself. You can help healers heal, but it shouldn't be done to make up for their lack of skill, it would be unrewarding and quite humiliating for them. In my opinion in a dps class, the cure shouldn't be gcd, but that extra something that isn't bad to have and that if you don't use it you're just a horrible person, like horses (Peter Griffin quote).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
Currently it is senseless that the smn can only heal in the 15 seconds of phoenix, or rather, it is senseless that the cures can only be used based on the dps rotation. The player should be made to think about when to use healing even with the help of healers.
a stupid idea that just occurred to me while I'm writing: instead of sacrificing gcd and at least about 6 seconds because of the summon lock, it would make more sense to have the possibility to "promote" the summon with phoenix and each attack is given a heals aoe constant or based on attack (of course it doesn't have to be broken). but frankly it would be enough to have an ogcd heal that you can use when it actually could lighten the load on healers. -
03-13-2023, 03:44 AMRenathrasI do like the idea of him being a support, but some things:Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
1) Searing Light is originally Devotion, which was native to Bahamut, not Carbuncle, I believe. They changed the name but the effect predates it.
2) Is interesting as an idea, but bad with the crit RNG and two minute meta stuff. It's basically the Double Down problem on steroids. With the potential for this massive attack (even 50% of the damage the Summons cause could be several thousands of potency as each one is 750 of damage on the summoning and another 1,920 [Titan], 1,500 [Garuda], and 1,880 [Ifrit]. Suppose you used this with all 3 gems active. At even 50%, that would be a single hit of 3,775 potency. 7,550 if it was 100%. Imagine the difference between crit direct hitting a 3,775 potency attack vs getting neither crit nor DH from it!) making the SMN's DPS potentially swing wildly. There might also be meta builds that are designed around dumping it in burst windows because of the potential gains in potency unless the penalty is stiff, in which case it becomes an extra button we have but never use except in extremely niche situations, which contributes to button bloat with no really good outcome.
3) This one could be OP, but is more interesting. Though I also feel like Phoenix should be doing something like that, not Carbuncle. In many of the games, Phoenix does things like party-wide Full Life (which arguably means it should be a LB...if SMN was a Healer, I guess) or regens, while Carbuncle's power is almost always party-wide Reflect, with some games (like FF9) allowing this to be converted to Protect, Shell, or ...I think Haste was the fourth effect Eiko could generate with him.
.
The reason I'm a fan of the Ruin 2 thing is so that he's not just...standing around waiting for something to do. That's like a Healer that only casts Cure on people and, when no healing is needed, doesn't chaincast Glare or whatever, they just stand there. Waiting. That's even worse than the Cure 1 spammer or Regen/Medica 2 caster, since they're literally doing nothing. And that's what Carby is for almost all of fights now.
I disagree with taking Res away, though. That would have much farther reaching impacts in the meta, and it's one of the reasons I like SMN and RDM. One thing I HATE more than anything when playing a DPS is when the Healer (4 mans) or both (8/24 mans) go down and no one else in the party can do anything but watch the party wipe. It's explicitly why I only play SMN or RDM when not playing a Healer/Tank, and why I don't play other Jobs as my go-to DPS. I like MCH and I like NIN, but I hate that feeling of powerlessness in encounters like that, so I stick with the ones that aren't powerless.
EDIT:
I will NEVER understand this mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
If a Healer or Tank is DPSing, no one worries that the DPS will feel emasculated. After all, the Healers/Tanks doing this are telling the DPSers "you aren't good enough to clear the dps checks without my help...". And...no one cares. In fact, doing this is PREFERRED.
I've never, as a Healer, at ANY time, felt "humiliated" if DPS or Tanks throw out incidental heals. If it's at a time of the fight the extra healing is useful and just reduces the pressure on us Healers, I'm not going to complain. If it's at a time when it's kind of useless, then it doesn't matter, and I'm also not going to complain. If it's at a time where we can't likely keep everyone alive without it, then I'm thankful, not humiliated.
It would take being a pretty egotistical, arrogant, and prideful Healer for one to complain or feel "humiliated" about such things. -
03-13-2023, 10:10 AMty_taurus1. No it wasn't a Bahamut thing. You learned Devotion before even getting Bahamut during SB. It was always centered around your pet, and I imagine the name change had to do with the fact that it was an Egi action, and they wanted it to feel more thematic of Carbuncle, hence Carbuncle being depicted in the buff icon as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The Stormblood Tooltip from the FFXIV wiki... It doesn't specify it comes from the pet here but it certainly did back then, and you can see the Egi in the icon which was only true for pet actions.
https://i.imgur.com/yIvqbxt.jpg
2. You're basing it off potencies you came up with though, so sure if you attach a really big number to any action, you could claim it being too broken. Something like 300 potency per gem is enough as an OGCD action. The point is just to help give the job flexibility which is something it desperately needs. Even if the damage gained is much lower, getting that in one OGCD instead of getting nothing because your stones go unused would make it feel a lot smoother. As for bloat issues, SMN is the last job concerned about bloat right now, and we could also easily resolve that by cutting out all the unnecessary AoE only buttons:
Energy Drain upgrades into Energy Siphon
Fester upgrades into Painflare
Gemshine upgrades into Precious Brilliance
Have the intial potency of the AoE actions be the same as the single target precursor, then just add falloff to avoid too much AoE potency. That's 3 extra hotbar spots open and nothing about your gameplay changes--more room to add some substance to SMN's gameplay too. Having niche tools that offer flexibility to an otherwise inflexible job is a good thing even if those buttons aren't always needed.
3. I'm trying to discuss more utility options that you can give to Carbuncle in order to make him feel like an adequate support only pet. Creating a tool like that for Phoenix doesn't help in that regard. It also severely limits the usefulness of the action because now, you better hope any deaths that occur always happen exactly at that odd minute mark or too bad, you should've waited another 20 seconds before you decided to die. I can't help you. It's the same problem that Enkindle Phoenix and Everlasting Flight suffer from now.
As for standing around in general, one of the advantages of having your pet on standby is they react as instantly as possible when given commands. When Carbuncle has a cast or autos, you will regularly have delays when using actions associated with him. It's the issue that the faeries have now as well. As long as Carbuncle actually has a selection of tools that the Summoner engages with or has in their back pocket, I think it's fine for him to not do damage. Carbuncle has historically never been a damage dealer outside of XI and XIV anyway, so it feels more thematic for him to be there as a utility caddie, there to hand you the 5 iron when you need to get out of the rough.
If we do want to return him to dealing damage, then it would be better to give him a DoT, that way he casts only once and the damage tics without putting him into animation lock every couple seconds. Whether he deals 30 potency per GCD directly or has a 36 potency DoT over 30 seconds, the effect is virtually the same. -
03-13-2023, 05:55 PMGgwppinoQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Bro, if a dps instead of using a skill that does 300/400/500/600 potency, uses a heal it just means that there's something wrong: it could be the healer/tank's lack of skill or even simply the entire party's lack of ability to manage the mitigations, for the simple reason that if it weren't, then that class would be staple and mandatory. Sure the rdm heal doesn't save the game if it has come to the point that it has to heal rather than do damage. The mitigations of the tanks are useful but because they are ogcd and do not penalize their rotation as are the mitigations of all dps.
One thing is the ress actually saving a game because it doesn't save a single healer's GCD but saves ALL of a party member's future damage output, but healing GCD of a role that isn't meant to heal doesn't make sense. On the other hand, the ogcd heal by a dps does, because it effectively relieves the difficulty of a healer without him feeling primarily at fault and without making the dps feel obliged to sacrifice what he should do, damage.
It's important that healers do damage, but it's equally important that dps that have higher damage output aren't forced to sacrifice it. -
03-13-2023, 07:23 PMSweetPete
Can we get another demi summon already? I really want Alexander. Let it be our level 100 ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown.
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03-13-2023, 09:37 PMConnorThis exact mentality is why we have the current Summoner lol. It has high damage and makes no sacrifices whatsoever. DoTs? Healer role. Debuffs? Tank role or something lol. Pet management? Omg that’s for Scholars lul. Can’t have job mechanics or they might lower DPS. Just a bunch of flat damage potency skills that minimise the requirement to think, so Summoners can focus solely on getting those big dick parses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
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03-13-2023, 10:45 PMlulunamiQuote:
Originally Posted by Connor
They should give Reaper a raise spell called Necromancy. But because of this raise utility, their DPS can be nerfed too. Give DRG a dragon pet just like in FFXI but give it an AoE heal that consumes one Eye of the dragon resource. DRG dps can be nerfed as well.
Melee DPS players just want to do damage. Casters are probably the same. This game does not really reward utility that much. Bard would be a mage instead of an archer if that was the case. -
03-14-2023, 04:53 AMty_taurusOn a minor note, I don't think you're getting away with Necromancy as an action as the act of Necromancy has been specifically called out by name on several Q&As as never gonna happen as it's too "evil" for the warrior of light.Quote:
Originally Posted by lulunami
On the topic of utility, I actually would argue it's the community that devalues utility and not the game. Pushing damage is important, but what actually matters is getting the clear, not reaching the highest numbers provided that the jobs are balanced correctly and that the lowest damage comp is still capable of clearing without relying on crit luck. Naturally we've seen this not be the case in the past, but it's not always the case and something the design team tries to avoid, even if not always successfully.
Utility increases a party's margin for error and can potentially save a run that would otherwise be scuffed due to something like the healers dying during famine's harvest even if by fault of someone else. I've seen it happen many times where we could've continued a run but couldn't because both healers fell. My group has a black mage and not a red mage or summoner, and that extra damage wasn't going to help us clean up those runs. Now, we've also had messy runs that were near wipes, like last night where our Warrior died because he was missing a sliver of HP during the end of high concept II and we had to go into Dominion with him not having the damage buff. We literally won by miliseconds as enrage Ego Death was being cast as we got the victory, so his extra damage absolutely made that run a win whereas a summoner or red mage would've made that a wipe.
But that's the thing... Any given run could be subjected to either situation, and while certain fights might make one or the other more likely to occur based on the mechanics, there's no real way to know which scenarios you might encounter while progging or reclearing. Most people make mistakes. There are situations in which the utility caster would've saved and enabled a clear and others where the damage caster would've instead. There is noticeable value to both when it comes to harder content, it's just that we as a community tend to dump on utility because a perfect run doesn't benefit from it. But there is value in having these tools whether you needed them or not. -
03-14-2023, 09:25 AMRenathrasBro, you were talking about Healers "feeling humiliated". I pointed out that that's stupid. If your RDM or PLD casts a heal, it's stupid for you to feel humiliated over it. Either it did something useful, which makes it good, or it did not, which made it dumb for them to do it. If the RDM uses Magicked Barrier, do you feel "humiliated"? If a MNK uses Mantra? What if the Tank uses Veil/Passage/Shake/Heart of Light? Obviously they're showing you you can't heal, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
NO! They're using their party utility to make an encounter go better.
And normal players - especially casual players - don't differentiate much between GCD and oGCD. An oGCD Curing Waltz will be seen the same as a GCD Vercure.
Suggesting Healers would feel "humiliated" is a non-argument. I'm telling you this AS A HEALER MAIN. I've never known a single other Healer that felt that way. I don't doubt the exist, but they aren't the majority, and they're being silly if they do, especially if they hold a grudge over it.
"It's important that healers do damage" - YES, because "DPSers are too bad to do good enough damage to clear the encounter and should feel humiliated the Healers are having to bail them out", right?
NO!
DPSers don't feel "humiliated" if Healers do damage. Healers don't feel "humiliated" if DPSers do some healing. It's that simple. Any that do are bad players. A good team uses all their abilities in a way that's optimal. Even The Balance has noted things like "If a PLD Clemency can save 2 Healer GCDs, it's a party DPS gain" and stuff like that. (Granted, that was Old PLD, but still...) The actual situation is nuanced, but yeah, appealing to people not wanting to "humiliate" others isn't the answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
1) No no, I mean the ability was originally Devotion. While not tied mechanically to Bahamut, it was thematically. The name and effect kind of implies a lesser or muted version of what Tempering would do. Though I guess one could argue it came from Ifrit...
2) Oh, it could be anything. But if it's too little, it would always be a loss. For example, 300 potency per gem would be a DPS loss unless you were using it to burn all three gems, as merely using one of the Primals already does 750 potency of damage for the same single GCD. So in a situation the boss was about to go untargetable and you had, say, Ifrit and Garuda up, it'd be better to hit EITHER Ifrit OR Garuda than it would be to use that attack. That attack would only be a gain if you had all three Primals up (900 potency for burning all three gems vs 750 for using any one of the Primals). So being that low would be pointless. It would have to be over 750 per gem to make it meaningful for one gem, and over 425 per gem to make it meaningful for two gems. And unless you expect over 55 seconds of downtime or the boss is about to die (in the latter case making it a button you only use once per encounter), you'd never use it on three gems.
2b) As for bloat, I recall once hearing someone complain about a grandma being a penny-pincher even though she didn't need to be because she was well off. But the thing is, she was well off BECAUSE she was a penny-pincher. How this applies here: If you don't concern yourself with button bloat when it isn't a major issue, it tends to become an issue. But in this case, it's more "meaningless" button. If the proposal was something really useful, I'd agree. But as discussed above, it's something that would probably only be used once or maybe twice per 10-14 minute fight. Is that REALLY worth a hotbar slot? I don't think it is. Though I do agree ED/ES and Fester/PF could probably be straight upgrades. Not as sure about Gemshine and Brilliance, but I suppose at that point there'd be no reason to still have a distinct AOE rotation. And I do think (saw your post in the Healer forum on Holy/Art of War, etc) that we've come to the point in FFXIV where having a separate AOE rotation is kind of pointless most of the time for most Jobs. So I'm not exactly against just rolling those into the single target rotation so they get more frequent use.
3) I'm more making a lore argument there than anything. Carbuncle has never been associated with much other than some very specific WHM (Time Mage in the case of Reflect under the Tactics Job system) party buffs. I do agree with Phoenix being kind of weird. They should honestly rework it as an oGCD (or GCD) that isn't tied to the main rotation that can be summoned as an independent effect. Like Curing Waltz on DNC isn't tied to the rotation, and it's because of that flexibility that it's actually somewhat useful. Phoenix isn't NOT useful, it's just useful in happenstance - when that part of your rotation happens to align with fight mechanics, but you're using it anyway regardless of the fight situation.
4) I get that. That's why I think it should be instant cast with the commands being oGCDs. Think about your own character. Hit Dia then Assize on WHM. Not hit Glare and then Assize. Note the difference. Hit Ruin 2 or Biolysis then Indominability on SCH. Now do the same thing with Glare. While instants can have a minor delay based on animation lock for characters, this may not be true of pets. But regardless, oGCDs come out as soon as the action is complete, which in the case of Instant cast Spells/Weaponskills is immediate. It may even be faster than a second oGCD following a first oGCD is, honestly (the latter imposes a ~0.7 sec animation lock). One of the things I like on SCH vs SMN is that Eos is always DOING something. She doesn't feel like a useless ornament. Sometimes her Embrace gets in the way of something, but it's not super common, and it's got a relatively quick cast time. If it was instant, that would help SCH out, too. The GCD (hers is 3 sec) between uses prevents her machine-gunning them out. One thing about Carby damage, though, is that it can do some silly stuff, like that one World First that was cleared because a Carby got in the final hit when the party got stunned/petrified leading to the enrage. Hilarity ensued, but that kind of thing has value/cool factor to me.
5) DoTs. Are. Dumb. Specifically, DoTs that have no interaction with a kit. You already know my feelings on that. Further, we don't want to add more DoTs/debuffs that clog up the boss's bar anyway when that's already an issue in some situations (24 mans, Hunt Trains, and 48 mans like DR/DRSavage). Besides, you run into the same problem if he happens to be casting to refresh it when you need to use an action AND it would require more AI for him to determine his actions. For example, in AOE, does he roll the DoT across all enemies or just use it on one target and wait for it to expire? With instant cast Ruin 2, all he would do is lock onto the target you attack and use it on CD every 3 sec. There's way less AI programming involved in that. No, it makes far more sense for him to be the ARR Carby we knew and loved.
No, SOME players like to be selfish-dps. That's why SAM, BLM, and arguably MCH exist as they do, for those players. The majority of players seem to want some utility. HOW MUCH depends on the person. In my case, for example, I don't want to play a DPSer that doesn't have a Raise spell, so I only play SMN or RDM. Ever since RDM was released, players picked it up because it has VerCure and VerRaise. In fact, I think a LOT of players wanted it to be more of a hybrid Job that could do both roles (FFXIV's system doesn't allow this, of course, but in terms of what players WANT, I think it's valid to point out.)Quote:
Originally Posted by lulunami
I would say some DPS players just want to do damage. Just as some Healer players just want to heal. But there are many who want to do more than that, which is why systems that are more malleable are ideal. Namely, have some selfish DPS Jobs and then have other DPS Jobs that...aren't selfish.
I agree with Ty 99.9% on this. I'd amend it only slightly to say "it's the raiding community that devalues utility". The casual playerbase LOVES utility. That's why you have PLDs in casual content casting Clemency all the time, for example. I had one in a level 80 Twinning run (X0 dungeon que) last night where she wasn't really using any CDs other than Shelltron, but man did she love using Clemency. And given she wasn't using other CDs...it was kind of REALLY helpful she was using it, lol. I don't think min-maxing, shooting for the 99-100 perfect rotation hardcore raiders (or people that strive to be that) realize how much the "regular" playerbase uses things like Vercure and Clemency, and how much they VALUE those tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I would even wager the bulk of the playerbase, and especially casual playerbase, values those tools more than damage maximization. Casual players aren't thinking "PLD can't use Clemency! That's a 380 potency DPS loss!". Casual players genuinely don't think like that, and they tend to value utility much higher than the hardcore static raider who has a solid team of players they trust to all do their Jobs more or less optimally. That's why you see things like a PLD holding Passage of Arms for the full duration, or an AST Collective Unconscious, or RDMs using Vercure, and probably would have SMNs using Physic if it scaled with INT. Because casual players tend not to think in terms of "GCD that didn't do damage?! POTENCY LOSS!!" They think "This seems useful, gonna use it". "Passage of Arms looks like a thing I press and hold to protect my party, I'm going to use it the way that seems logical to use." They aren't thinking of all those GCDs of lost damage. (And, to be fair to them, very little content in the game does that difference matter anyway.) -
03-14-2023, 04:37 PMGgwppinoso having the dot is a sacrifice? Is having pet management a sacrifice of harm? I'm stating that a dps does damage and must have utilities that don't hinder it (like other dps). Why would a dps sacrifice 500 potency to use a heal that uses the healer? Explain to me, wouldn't you, be intellectually honest, you're probably the same one using swiftcast on splistream and then you don't have it for a hypothetical ress, and that's fine. what does pet management and the depth of a job have to do with something that absolutely cannot be the game mechanic because otherwise the class would be mandatory? If the smn heal becomes important, it means that the summoner is mandatory in raids. talk nonsense sometimes. The smn was born as a versatile class in the world of FF, and it is right that it has its utilities, in my opinion, but either it becomes a healer in all respects, or its utilities must be adapted to the role it currently has to be: a dps . And having 10-13 seconds of only healing with a summon lock of about 6 seconds is not suitable for a dps. To a healer yes, but not to a dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
maybe the word humiliated wasn't the right word, maybe it's a word I've overemphasised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As an ast/sch, do I feel as fault if a summoner uses Rekindle and Everlasting Flight? Absolutely not, if a mnk uses mantra should I feel at fault? i would say no, if a dnc uses samba should i feel at fault? I would say no. If a mch uses dismantle should I feel at fault? I would say no. if a rdm uses magick barrier should I feel at fault? I would say no. do you know why? because it costs nothing for these classes to do so and indeed, if they don't use them, I point it out to them, because they are useful for completing the raid. if a rdm uses vercure it means something is wrong, it means something is missing. Because he was forced to use it, a cure that should never be used in a raid. Because it costs so much to him but to the whole party to use it, at this point we must all examine our conscience, me as healer first. -
03-14-2023, 05:44 PMConnorSo thinking Summoner should have more than just slamming buttons as hard as you can is ‘trying to turn it into a healer’ with disgusting potency heals that can replace all healers and solo it. Now who’s talking nonsense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
Your argument doesn’t even make sense. If a healer had to wait 6 seconds on ‘summon lock’ (not sure what this is referring to, the initial wind-up some summons have? Having to keep using that Summon for 6s?) they would absolutely be on the forums kicking up a shitstorm about it. Especially if it was only healing. Seems a bit hypocritical, healers can dps to their hearts content but dps can’t step on anyone else’s toes.
Your scenario makes no sense either. So what if a dps uses a 500 potency heal on someone (as if any dps would ever get such a powerful heal on GCD lol)? Will the group immediately wipe? The boss gives up and leaves because you’re not ‘playing right’? Yoshida appears behind you and laughs? Or what, are they going to miss the super strict dps checks on normal content because they swapped a Gemstone Rite with ‘Support ability X’ (Lmao) .
With that logic how do you reconcile the existence of Red Mages? By shitting on anyone who dares use Vercure? They have a heal but they’re not mandatory in raids?! How is that even possible?!?! ! Or the fact that tanks can solo heal themselves through the majority of content?
Pet management and class depth are the exact sacrifices you have to make if you want your ‘pure dps only dps’ Summoner. People bitched about ghosting, having to position Egis, disparities between them, having to mash Egi action buttons in-between GCDs before they were added to it. So what did they do? Removed it all. Now Summoner can do pure dps without ever having to stop or think about anything else, so you got your wish.
Your logic is the exact justification they used in creating the current Summoner. Delete everything not related to pure dps, standardise the abilities so there’s no variation, no support, utility or healing because mUh DeEpS, no more pets, no more DoTs. ‘I’m just a DPS I don’t WANT to do those other things you can’t MAKE me’.
More importantly, it’s this thinking that’s resulted in the wider game becoming so incredibly simplified. Because there’s been so much severe pushback over anything that has the potential to be
‘S U B O P T I M A L’ , that they just don’t even bother anymore besides throwing one or two classes a 120s cool-down that’s practically automatic and generally functionally redundant.
Getting real sick of people bitching about game design then giving the literal justification devs used to inform that game design…Summoner is how it is as a result of all the complaining people did in the past about it being ‘too complex to easily optimise’. So they fixed that for you.
Summoner has already had its utility adapted to the dps role. It’s what we have now. -
03-14-2023, 05:57 PMfulminating
If you summon something you’re locked out of summoning anything else for about 6 seconds it doesn’t really matter outside of downtime because prematurely ending isn’t often desirable
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03-14-2023, 06:13 PMConnorI wasn’t aware this was a thing, which I’m putting down to small SCH brain only having one summon (kind of lol). My point does still stand though, if healers had to wait 6s before they could do something you can bet they’d be up in arms about it. I mean, look how controversial the cleric stance delay was, or the channel on Collective Unconscious. So I don’t agree that ‘that can only exist for healers’, because realistically it can’t exist for anyone. And so we reach the point of 6.0 Summoner where all of that decision making just doesn’t exist anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
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03-14-2023, 06:19 PMGgwppinoSummon lock I mean that when you summon an elemental you MUST wait at least 6 seconds to change another summon (this is how the summoner currently works). IF you enter phoenix that has ONLY cures, because my comment was born for this, IT MEANS that now you can ONLY cure. Also Vercure is just the example that it's a cure that isn't used in raids but it's a purely solo ability. An rdm in a raid doesn't use it because healers are already there to heal. The rdm uses ALL OTHER utilities it has, because they are the ones that really make you win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
I totally agree that we have a pet that is a dummy. Have you ever read the opposite from me? And I'm also one of those who feel that smn in its current state returns nothing to the player because it has nothing to optimize. Sure if you put in GCD heals these aren't used because they are USELESS in raids clearly in the current state of ff14. -
03-14-2023, 06:42 PMConnorI’m confused by this. If players had the option of either Summon Phoenix or Bahamut depending on the situation, choosing Phoenix wouldn’t literally mean they can only cure. It has one heal on a 20s cool-down, and Everlasting Flight is overheal most of the time anyway. Why wouldn’t you be able to just use the standard rotation? You could still use Fountain of Fire / Brand of Purgatory. You can argue that it would be functionally redundant, and there’s plenty of problems with going through so much for a single heal skill, but again that redundancy is why we have the game we have now. Personally, I’d rather have the option to do something, even if it’s infrequently, than to just remove that option altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
I mean, look at base heals on healers. Cure, Physick, Benefic and Diagnosis technically haven’t had any reason to exist for several expansions now. But for better or worse they’re still part of the healers toolkit. What should happen to them then? Delete them? You could make the case for all GCD heals being functionally redundant, but then the only real option left is to delete them all.
Like, imagine if they made Physick scale off intelligence. Would there be any need for it? It would be functionally redundant for the majority of the time. But does mean we should just never have the option of using it? Again, I’d rather have the option to do something and decide for myself what’s best based on the content than for them to just remove all decision making in favour of simplified dps optimisations. Summoner’s versatility in previous FF’s gives it much more scope to do things than say, a Black Mage (which always fills the role of big damage), so personally I think it makes sense for Summoners to have the option of supporting the party if necessary, whether it’s buffs, healing, debuffs, or whatever other kind of utility.
To clarify, I think Summoner should have the option to be able to help the party if the need arises, and disagree that it shouldn’t be able to just because ‘it’s might not always be useful’ -
03-14-2023, 06:57 PMGgwppinoIn this case I wouldn't have much to object to. Personally I would still find it not very useful for optimization purposes due to the simple fact that phoenix does the same damage as bahamut but also has healing, but frankly it wouldn't change much for me. I had (wrong at this point) understood from the Ayer2015's comment that it should become a summon to be added to legos and that it only had cures, this to "optimize" the use of cures and not only in the 15 seconds of a phoenix every 2 minutes. In that case, even if the intention would have been noble, however it would have been a waste of time and it would not have gone down well: I would like the designers to think of interesting things for the smn and not of a summon that would never be used except when you have to do solo content. Physick I agree that it should be in intelligence, because currently it's like not having it, personally I don't really have it in bar and it doesn't make sense. My badQuote:
Originally Posted by Connor
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03-14-2023, 07:16 PMConnorA pure healing Lego summon would be kind of fun, but as you say it would have no reason to exist for Summoner and wouldn’t add very much. Especially considering there’s already a book using job with pure healing summons lol. Frankly I always forget Phoenix and Bahamut have identical potencies, so that would cause an imbalance where it’s like ‘why use Bahamut when you can do Phoenix for same damage and healing?’. I feel like if they separated Phoenix and Bahamut summons and adjusted Phoenix’s potencies slightly to be lower than Bahamut’s, it would go a long way to adding a bit of decision making and support to the job. Even if it would inevitably end up being Bahamut summoned most of the time, I still think having the option to use Phoenix instead for some party healing/support but less personal dps would be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
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03-14-2023, 07:46 PMGgwppinoAs I said such an idea would be really nice but only if the smn was a healer and not a dps. (Which frankly, If he was a healer, I wouldn't mind at all. Indeed, I might even prefer him because with a healer kit, he would become the first healer with a minimum of rotation)Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
In my opinion, as I had already written, it would be interesting to have OGCD healing skills to be attributed to the pet and that these have the recast time reset when phoenix is summoned (as with the old summoner it was tri-disaster). In my opinion, with such a thing you earn that the smn has to think about using their heals and not wasting them, helping healers in the most agitated phases. Regarding phoenix.
Then there would be so many things you can do to the pet but also to the rotation of the smn. It has so much room to be explored, it would be a shame if the designers didn't take advantage of it -
03-15-2023, 05:09 AMRenathras
Meanwhile, PvP SMN is over here with Phoenix as a healing option and Bahamut as their DPS option. Like, you can choose which to use for your Adrenaline Rush, with Phoenix doing less damage (and DoT damage) while giving the party a heal vs Bahamut that does more direct damage. AND they can use Carby shields on other players.
As much as people praise modern PvP design and say "Why can't we have that in PvE?", if they did that with PvP SMN, the first time a SMN used Phoenix instead of Bahamut, they'd be decried for being a bad suboptimal player.
.
This is why we can't have nice things. -
03-15-2023, 06:15 AMConnorSee PvP is exactly what I had in mind lol. I always say this but Yoshi needs to give the person(s) who done it a raise or something lol, put them in charge of PvE too (poor things will be worked to death)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I do agree about the second part unfortunately; you’d just get people bitching about ‘I was in a party and the Summoner used Phoenix oh my goodness I’m going to faint ’ lol.
At the same time though, I’d like to think the developers themselves are actually in favour of letting players make these decisions, so it may be that they could add it regardless of how the community would react, so people who want to use it can, or they can just use Bahamut. Like, I think they add things based on their own judgement of what the job should have, rather than what the community wants (for better or worse lol) -
03-15-2023, 08:10 AMRenathrasI honestly have no idea. As you've said in several threads I've noticed, and I agree, part of the problem is that the community ASKS for things. Or, rather, they complain about things where the most direct solution is to just dumb down and sterilize things to horrifically homogenized harmony. AST Cards got this treatment because the majority of players fished for Balance and complained about the others. It's also why RDM can't have Vermedica and PLD can't have Raise (it did once upon a time...though it couldn't be used in combat, so, not really sure WHY it wasn't allowed to keep that...), despite players actually wanting those things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
Because then the hardcore raiders will complain about it. If RDM does as much damage as BLM, raiders will complain because "Why bring a harder BLM if RDM does the same damage and offers raising and healing?!", but if RDM does sufficiently less, "Why bring a RDM if it's basically griefing your team after prog when you don't need the raises anymore?" It's like these people wake up every morning thinking of ways to be upset about something so they can complain. We saw this in the thread about Job simplification with players who self-admitted they play SMN when they want to chill in their farm raids complaining that they have the option to do so and demanding they (and everyone else) be forced to play harder and more complex. It's like when you see a rich person say the rich should pay more taxes when they COULD voluntarily write extra checks to the government and yet they don't do so voluntarily.
Choices are good.
Utility is good.
These things are valued by normal players. One reason RDM was the most played Caster until EW was because many players liked the flexibility of being able to seamlessly drift between damage and healing and back. While high end players declare this is not optimal, to normal players, it's COOL. FFXIV isn't FFXI, but that utility is still highly prized by the players - and frankly, FFXIV could stand to be a little more like FFXI. In Eureka, RDM's were also highly valued, alongside PLD's and Healers. SMN's have always been down that list a little ways, but their raising utility (and back when it had some value, Physic healing) are things the playerbase as a whole likes.
The problem is, the raiders hate it. They hate when doing a 4 man roulette anyone steps out of "optimal", and they really hate it if in an Extreme (where it doesn't REALLY matter) or a Savage (where it CAN matter if not everyone's pulling their weight). And so you get threads like "Tales from the Duty Finder" which are mostly high end players complaining about casual players in casual content not being optimized. "How dare this Sprout Tank not do wall to wall pulls in Dzmael Darkhold!" was actually one I saw the other day. "The Sprout Healer should have to get a trial by fire and learn to be get good or wipe." Those were serious takes from people.
The Devs are trying to thread the needle between both, and the end result is a lot of bland Jobs, some clunky and convoluted ones they just haven't gotten to yet, and sterile sameness with interesting utility gradually beaten out of the game and Jobs in service to making sure Raiders only rarely have to complain about that one SMN who used Physic in their level 50 dungeon run.
.
I don't want to put this ALL on raiders, because casuals have complained about things as well, but when it comes to removing utility or balance considerations, those are ALL made at the behest of raiders, not casual players. Casual players aren't the ones complaining when a SMN casts Physic, nor are they the ones insisting SMN shouldn't do so much damage because it's "braindead". -
03-17-2023, 03:01 AMGgwppino
Yes, but you're the same one who says that the current smn is fine as it is. But you're blaming its bland essence on raiders.
In addition to the fact that your speech doesn't make sense when you say that there is a need to optimize normal or medium content. Also because there isn't even that much need to optimize even in high-level content, but maximum optimization is just personal gratification. And frankly, if you meet people like this, they are certainly not the problems of those who love this class and would want, for the sake of it, not empty and flat.
You also practically misrepresented the words in that post, and despite having unquestionable explanations, you still remained in your conviction.
Also a small curiosity: why should a smn after lvl 25 use Physick?
EDIT: Before you quote me, I'd like to withdraw the Physick line since you were talking about pre-50. Let me step back when I'm wrong. -
03-17-2023, 03:11 AMty_taurusTechnically, Physick is quite usable until you get proper level 50 gear or start wearing your level 45 ARR relic gear, as from levels 1 - 50, casters and healers share the same gear which is equip-pable by all Disciplines of War or Magic that offers both INT and MND at the same time. There's still not much of a reason to do so normally, but it is as roughly effective as Vercure is up until that point, so in a pinch, you actually can save yourself or someone else with it. Cutters Cry, for example, seems to shake up a lot of sprouts with The Dragon's Voice and The Ram's Voice, which I think are still untelegraphed since it's an optional pre-50 dungeon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
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03-17-2023, 03:15 AMGgwppinoyes, You are right, it was rhetorical. But You are right. I rephrase the question: why should a smn after level 50 use Physick?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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03-17-2023, 03:25 AMty_taurusWasn't trying to be snippy, for the record. It came to mind more just because I find it interesting how a button can go from niche but usable to, usable only for the fact that it technically charges the party's limit break yet restores less HP than auto-healing once you start wearing of casting gear. But also it's a good reminder for anyone passing by that you can still use it in leveling dungeons and whatnot if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
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03-17-2023, 03:29 AMConnorI don’t think anyone is making the point that Summoners should be using Physick currently. I think the point is that the developers have never made Physick actually useable for Summoners. It’s just a dead button for the majority of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
But just because that’s what it is doesn’t mean that’s what it has to be. There have been loads of suggestions to make Physick a viable option for Summoners, but for whatever reason the developers just flat out to refuse to even remove it and replace it with a proper dps ability.
Whether they refuse because of community attitudes towards healing spells (‘we don’t want them’), because of ‘balance’ (not sure Summoner is going to become a guaranteed raid spot just because it can use Physick and actually heal someone lol), or because of some misguided belief that it would make Summoner ‘too complicated’, is really anyone’s guess lol
Even though properly scaling Physick wouldn’t be ‘necessary’ for Summoner, I think the point is that sometimes it’s ok for skills to be ‘situational’ or ‘contextual’. It wouldn’t affect Summoner’s dps or rotations, it would just give them an option to throw out potential back-up heals in extreme circumstances. And considering everyone on the forums is always complaining about ‘healers bad’ etc, I think it’s fine to for some jobs to have the ability to support healers if needed lol. I mean, it’s always said that healers have so much pressure and that everything needs to be easier for them, but surely if more jobs are able to help them it relieves some of that pressure from the role? -
03-17-2023, 03:34 AMAxxionjust to chime on that. during the live letter before endwalker launched it seems that they "forgotten" that it even a button. The reason why i say that is during the changes to smn, keep in mind that they did mention there was two different version of the smn and we go the one with pet flavored actions. They was wiling to get rid of the rez before the heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
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03-17-2023, 03:35 AMGgwppino
Here you break through an already open door. I don't think there's anyone against something as sensible as changing a freaking variable in the game code and it scales to int. It is inexcusable that in 2023 this ability has not yet been fixed. But the smn problem isn't just Physick. The problem with smn is also that it's bland and it is a fact.
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03-17-2023, 10:30 AMRenathrasI'm saying the reason for the change are because of raiders. I'm not saying SMN is bland or that I find it disagreeable. I think SMN is the only DPS Job in the game that is really enjoyable to play, has good party utility, seems to be balanced in damage output (that is, it doesn't do so little that no one brings it to raids and it's not topping the charts like SAM due to having utility and not being selfish so it isn't dominating, either), and it's widely played (and presumably enjoyed) by a lot of Caster players. Collectively, this indicates it is fine as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
Which words? Be specific, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
I'm generally opposed to people making nebulous "kitchen sink" statements that could be true or false but are impossible to even address unless they give specifics, and because someone's trying to use one as a rampant derailing ad hominem in another thread (not saying you are, but they are), I'd like to get the specifics of what you're thinking here before addressing it further, if at all.
Physic is pretty useful when working on your ARR Relic, even now. That "Surprise!" FATE where you have to keep at least one NPC guard alive while fighting all those Kobols is REALLY good if you can patch them up while also drawing the enemies (and was already really hard on SMN since you can't Titan tank them). Several other FATEs also have NPCs to keep up or are a boss-type fight where they hit kinda hard on non-Tanks, so having the ability to heal yourself can really help. When you only have 1500 HP or so, a 600 HP cure is actually still pretty useful. I did my SMN one in 5.3 or so, and found Physic was useful for all the FATEs I was soloing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
It's also dubiously useful in PotD, and is useful in solo instances like the SMN Job quests in that level range. This is partly true no matter what gear you're wearing (even pure INT gear) because stats on gear up to level 50 are low enough that the +10 mind vs not having it leaves the spell still doing pretty close to the same potency. And also as Ty pointed out, if you actually wear the combined Caster/Healer gear of ARR, it has INT and MND both on it, meaning SMN is doing as much healing with Physic at those levels in that gear as SCH. (Now I'm kinda wondering if doing PotD level 1-50 content is easier or harder on SMN if you wear that gear...probably harder, but it's amusing to consider...)
Not saying it's much, but it does have some niche uses.
Also: I tip my hat to your EDIT. Lots of people won't do that. So fair enough and I won't hammer you on it (I probably wouldn't have anyway and would have just said the above, but I definitely try not to hammer people for admitted honest mistakes). I'd rather praise someone doing it than anything.
Yup, all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Honestly, I wish they still did that for leveling gear in all the other expansions. It's just so much more convenient for leveling an alt Job, and it SHOULDN'T be game-breaking since the cases of wanting that INT and MND on gear would be limited to......well, just SMN, and just for Physic. So it shouldn't be game breaking at all and would cut down on the art workload (so they could do other artsy things) and shouldn't upset any balances because people will upgrade to the level cap entry level cap Job gear (the freebie stuff they give us) and then the entry level cap tome gear first chance they get anyway.
Yeah, though to truly benefit from it, you'd have to carry some level 49 DoM gear to throw on when you saw that you'd zoned into an instance less than level 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Though...wait, does it fill the LB gauge somehow usefully? Or did you more mean "it technically does this, but less than even just casing Ruin and I'm mentioning it only for the sake of completeness"?
This. In a game where Vercure and Clemency exist, and where SCH and SMN have been completely separated other than Resurrection, there's no logic to SMN Physic not being at least a Vercure-lite. (Go to Actions and Traits on SCH and you'll see that ONLY Res is listed as coming from Arcanist; I remember when ShB hit that my SCH's Physic was grayed out and listed as ACN/SMN, so it's a separate ability in the game code from "Physic B", the SCH one. Which means there's LITERALLY no reason it couldn't be changed to INT scale since the SCH one is a separate ability that would still scale from MND just fine, and with no Cross-Class abilities, you wouldn't have to worry about weird interactions like, say, THM/BLM Cross-Classing the ACN/SMN one for some kind of "unfair advantage" or something.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
Agree. It's like they just forgot about it. They outright mentioned Resurrection and debating keeping it, but seem to have just...forgotten...that Physic even existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
Disagreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
It being bland is a subjective opinion, not a fact, and not an opinion everyone agrees with. Remember the difference between the two - not trying to be pedantic, just so we're on the same page:
"That painting has red paint." (Fact...well, if we assume the painting has red paint, and let's for this situation.)
"The red in that painting is pretty." (Opinion - not everyone finds red pretty, or that red pretty, and whether or not red is pretty isn't a factual statement, it's an opinion. As would be finding it ugly.)
"bland" is a taste, so generally, it's going to be an opinion. I don't find SMN bland at all. /shrug I'm not saying this to diss you, I just feel a lot of these discussions would work out better if people didn't state, of non-factual opinions, "it is a fact". -
03-17-2023, 04:04 PMGgwppinoWe have come to a conclusion on the fact that subjectively you may like the state of the smn while I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Bland intended that smn lacks a HIS mechanic that differentiates it from the others and not having it testifies to the fact that it is bland, because the smn is recognized for its fantastic VFX but not for its unique gameplay.
Furthermore, the smn has some big problems that I think are for all to see:
1) the pet is a dummy. if you solve this fact, this make the smn less bland by giving it an identity that is not just VFX.
2) Physick
3) The healings stricted to a fixed dps rotation, solving it and giving the smn a task that has currently been deprived by the designers themselves, because it is often insignificant.
4) the gapcloser, which in addition to being cluncky, is mandatory in your rotation for a melee """"combo"""" for its own sake: first of all it would be advisable to revisit the gapcloser because of the animation lock, but above all it would be advisable justify it, perhaps with an elemental that foresees attacks at semi close range, enhancing its hypothetical usefulness, because currently it is an end in itself. Furthermore, the gapcloser is present in an elemental that is *usually* used with "attention" in dead and not agitated moments due to (practically the only) 5 seconds of cast, causing the mandatory gapcloser to lose all its hypothetical usefulness.
5) Levelling, because I think smn leveling is one of the most boring in the history of videogames. Because it does not give any sense of gameplay progression, but remains fixed.
6) Aetherflow kit, which actually I don't find it a serious problem, but it's annoying that 2 buttons could be used for something else instead they are just redundant buttons. Too much importance for off global skills with one minute CD.
7) The smn does not make choices. His whole rotation is based on obligatory. smn is forced to use ALL of titan, smn is forced to use ALL of garuda, and smn is forced to use ALL of ifrit. The smn doesn't have to think and doesn't have to choose. Elemental abilities instead of being exploited for their gameplay characteristics, are used because they have to be used. This point is related to point 4
So no, the smn is not ok
Once these points have been solved, which I think are still points, we can discuss adding complexity in the optimizations, or well, adding optimizations in this case which I think is healthy to have because it does not involve disadvantages for those who want to play chill and it brings fun for people who would like a little spice in their gameplay playing the class they thematically love.
Btw bland is a term you used and I wanted to tie in with. Like in rap freestyles xD. The smn gameplay I would consider empty, without interest from designers, but even bland seemed ok to me. -
03-17-2023, 05:59 PMty_taurusOh absolutely. It was just a casual thought that happened while glancing through the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggwppino
Yes, it does fill the LB gauge by a miniscule amount per cast, so it's technically beneficial to spam Physick during boss transitions where nothing is targetable. Whether or not the amount of LB you gain will matter and whether or not it's worth the MP to spam Physick that way is another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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03-17-2023, 08:59 PMAxxionNow im going to assume here. You are saying that the changes for smn is because of the raiders? it was notQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion
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03-22-2023, 05:56 PMLancet
As much as i want to see Ramuh Shiva and Leviathan, we might not be able to because it will make moves such as aether flow energy drain ruin 3 ruin 4 and painflare obsolete, I can see why will just get another demi summon in 7.0 i suppose only time will tell.