Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore?

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Originally Posted by DivineP

And your playing a story based game... Because?

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Why do you care this much? xD

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Originally Posted by DivineP

And your playing a story based game... Because?

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I play an MMORPG because I have friends I like hanging out with and I am enjoying my new house? One day people will realize not everyone plays FFXIV for the story as shocking as it may seem to those who are enthralled by the game's story.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Then you venture into parsers which impact the game is a massive way. Those rotation every one of us uses from the Balance? All mathed out via a parser.

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I suspect this IS largely true, but it actually isn't necessary. The game lists all ability potencies, including modifiers. The only thing that require parsers is determining optimal melds (since the game doesn't tell us Crit % and stuff like that, so those things have to be parsed out via training dummy or whatnot). But in strict terms, rotations can be mathed out using the potencies. I've done it before to compare parts of rotations or make a priority system for myself when things like expansions happen and The Balance hasn't released their updated stuff yet. The tricky part is factoring in all the party buff interactions and making something that's general across all compositions to get everything lined up, but that's more overall knowledge of all the Jobs than it is parsers.

Honestly, there are a lot of add-ons that are innocuous, and many players don't use any at all, not even shaders. Never used any myself. But it's the more cheat-y ones that make the rest look bad and force Yoshi P away from a "don't ask, don't tell" policy into one of heavy-handed enforcement.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think I remember reading the number was around 10-20% or so depending on the data center and server. I could be wrong though. It would make sense though based on what I've seen in game. These weapons aren't exactly a rare sight, but they are cool all the same.

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Wasn't this Savage?

I think Savage is higher now (something like 30% have at least attempted or cleared, I forget which, P1S/P5S, something like 15-25% [median 20?] have completed the final fight of a current tier), but Ultimates are still pretty small, something like 5% or less clear and maybe 10-15% attempt? Though who knows what the real numbers are.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Which mount or title do you value more? Which experience will you fondly (or not so fondly) share with your friends? Likely not the one you cheesed (whether that be running it unsync or cheating).

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I get where you're going, but I'd be careful with such a broad brush. Unsync isn't cheating, it's something the game allows for people later on to try something with a handicap, much like how Echo is implemented after a certain point to help more people clear content. I have a lot of fond memories of running old content. I unsynced Coils in ShB after clearing Turn 5 years ago in ARR (need a friend to help with Nail, so I caught her up and then we finished the rest together), and hell yeah I valued it. Running content with a friend and then being smacked with that in-game CGI cutscene after the second to last fight was an amazing feeling. It was like finishing ARR's story for the first time, and I've recommended it to others (and helped a couple people run it) since then because of how it's the "true conclusion" to both the 1.X and 2.0 stories.

Likewise, I've done many Extremes to farm or just get a clear on. I still remember soloing Sophia Ex (the last Ex I hadn't done) on PLD in the middle of Endwalker, and remember PF runs of Alex 9 Savage for Lux farming with other people at 80, level 60 at the end of HW farming Tank mounts running Garuda unsynced, running Susaku 99 times and buying her mount with the totems because it just WOULD. NOT. DROP! lol Chain running dungeons unsynced with a friend I met there in Swiftperch to finish my first Zodiac Relic as said new friend was finishing their last.

I fondly remember a lot of things done unsynced.

There's quite a bit of difference between "trying something years later when people aren't really doing it anymore, but within the game rules to see the content and maybe challenge yourself" vs "actively using against the rules tools to access things you aren't supposed to that gives you an advantage over the other people not doing it".

No one unsyncing a raid is cheating their way to a world first.

I do think your first line, however, is right; that this is Yoshi asking people "Why are you doing this? Do you not see how it invalidates your own efforts?"

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

And before we have a return to last night's dumpster fire of a discussion, no I'm not defending cheating nor am I downplaying cheat mods, I just keep seeing this idea of "cheat mods = no effort required" passed around and it doesn't help matters at all.

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No one's saying it plays the game for the, but it does REDUCE the effort required. Say you want some hard content. You want a 9 or 10 out of 10 difficulty. The Developers give you a 9. you then use mods which make it a 7. Sure, it still requires EFFORT - you aren't just setting your controller down and getting a clear - but you've reduced the threshold of difficulty to below what it was; below what you even were asking for it to be.

I think that's what people are saying.

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To the OP:

It sounds like a little of both. Like he's debating the point of making this content if people are going to cheat it, but it could be more him asking the question to himself (do we make more?), him asking the playerbase (why are you cheating?), or him speaking in a general sense (why do we fight?)

They could always just not care about the world first races... Just drop in the content like any other patch, put the servers up whenever they're ready instead of artificially lengthening the maintenance for the sake of a small minority of players.

And with less of a race, there's less incentive to cheat.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I don't think it's made as an attempt at threat. It does feel more like self-reflection, and probably more importantly, an attempt at trying to position the community participating to actually reflect on how they approach content.

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This seems like it'd make the most sense, if only because that's a worthwhile or even necessary tack to take before content increasingly comes into an arms race with mods or has to try to limit all players' freedoms to outpace them. Ultimate is its own beast and doesn't provide nearly great enough rewards, one would think, to damn its own experience by replacing them with slapdash mod-UI warnings and the like... so long as the experience would thereby feel lessened for those players. As for those who care only for the extrinsic rewards even then, well, that probably shouldn't be the groups around which Ultimate (or anything else) is designed.

That said, it does leave some obvious cues out of the conversation. Generally, the more unintuitive or "unfair" a mechanic appears to be, even if other forms of difficulty are lauded, might not be considered a loss when dispensed with via a mod, and since mods have little reason to be so finely tunable as to differentiate, say, mechanics that offer no indicating beyond subtle floor markings from ones that have cleanly decipherable visual cues, the more a fight is laden with especially finnicky mechanics that aren't proportionately that much more fun to the average runner, the higher chance people are to just mod it. And that's to say nothing for the greatest-reasonable-requirements of PuG-life (memorize video guide, have mods, etc., etc.).

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

They could always just not care about the world first races... Just drop in the content like any other patch, put the servers up whenever they're ready instead of artificially lengthening the maintenance for the sake of a small minority of players.

And with less of a race, there's less incentive to cheat.

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But they don't officially endorse the race in any way, do they?

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

But they don't officially endorse the race in any way, do they?

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Officially? Square doesn't care.

Yoshida does acknowledge it, however, and said

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If the illicit use of third-party tools is made clear through our investigations, I, at the very least, will not recognize that team as the true World First.

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So he views it more like a fun community-driven sport than necessarily anything SE pushes groups to do.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Those rotation every one of us uses from the Balance? All mathed out via a parser.

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Technically, they're mathed out via the relative potencies themselves, not via any crunching of the battle log. Raw damage parsers are notoriously confounded by random damage variances (in our case, via Critical Hit, and Direct Hit chances and the ±5% deviation on all non-HP-based throughput actions).

Then you have gameplay testing to see that nothing was missed (no impossibilities in weave that normal models didn't catch, such as from an ability randomly having a longer-than-normal ICD/"animation lock period" or having effectively less duration than stated, as with old Blood Weapon). Finally, then, a shitton of controlled tests will eventually test the theory via parsers, but that's the final step, and typically the least necessary.

Parsers are how a random player may learn, given enough data points, what's preferable in a given situation --including ones not generally worth optimizer's interest (since, why should raiders care about unaligned dungeon pulls, etc.?)-- but it's not where anyone working on the level of The Balance is going to start from.

Agreed on the rest, though.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

But they don't officially endorse the race in any way, do they?

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They don't endorse it, but they go out of their way to facilitate and then keep a close eye on it...

They seem to want them to happen, but they won't hand out any rewards outside of maybe a mention for it.

And then they get upset when people in a competitive environment they created try to get an advantage.

I think a lot gets misconstrued in these forums not just this one comment from Yoshida. I didn't read Yoshida's words as a threat, but to drive a point home towards creating content that the player base asked for, only to have it cleared by advantageous means that is unfair to good number of the ffxiv population who try to do the content by the book and it's rules. Why there is a thread like this when what he said was pretty plain, is the bigger question to me. Learn the difference in a threat and making a point I say.

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Originally Posted by ThroatDeep

This may have been some emotion. I would feel similar if I was on a dev team and players just cheated through my content while I spent however many hours developing a raid for players who want "hard content", only to get slapped in the face afterwords.

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Oh please it's not that dramatic.

The biggest thing watching this thread is that some people think all add ons are bad, others that some are okay, others that no one should care. The problem is that add ons are unregulated, and so who gets to decide what is okay and isn’t? Nobody. As a consequence there will never be a consensus. Quite honestly the only recognizable authority in this matter would be the game publisher, who is against all of them. Whether people want to respect that or not is up to them. But the conversation here will forever go in circles because it’s pointless when everyone feels different about them.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Oh please it's not that dramatic.

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Actually it is. It takes over a year to design ultimate fights.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

They don't endorse it, but they go out of their way to facilitate and then keep a close eye on it...

They seem to want them to happen, but they won't hand out any rewards outside of maybe a mention for it.

And then they get upset when people in a competitive environment they created try to get an advantage.

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The solution cannot be 'I'm not looking so do do what you want'.
Cheaters will always cheat. You're not getting rid of them by turning around, you implement countermeasures.

"Should" people run programs that provide callouts? I wouldn't but I'm not being paid or laid if other people do it, so I don't give a crap if they are. But arguments about zoomhacks being used in the current Ultimate are a smokescreen for the usual suspects: the toxic casual portion of this community seethes and fumes and grinds their teeth over their bizarre obsession with high-end content they don't participate in themselves; this is the latest sputtering ragefest smugging over "CHEATING PARSERS" or whatever it is they've decided to make the centerpiece of this week's self-congratulatory "Here's how I'm actually better than/morally superior to anyone who does difficult content" ego trip. On any other medium, I'd likely agree with Yoshi's stance. Here? I'm trying to protect the community. If the toxic casual community's artificial ego gets any bigger they might explode.

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consequence there will never be a consensus. Quite honestly the only recognizable authority in this matter would be the game designer, developer and publisher who is against all of them.

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From the Lodestone, his stance is crystal clear:

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I have come across posts from individuals that say things along the lines of, “Yoshida allows the use of third-party tools, so it’s fine to use them.” However, let me make it clear that I have never permitted the use of these tools. You may find information below from past posts and livestreams which outline my stance and policies surrounding third-party tools.

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"Should" people run programs that provide callouts?

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No.

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the toxic casual portion of this community seethes and fumes and grinds their teeth over their bizarre obsession with high-end content they don't participate in themselves

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Irrelevant. The DESIGNER of this game and all it contains has made it crystal, bluntly clear.

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On any other medium, I'd likely agree with Yoshi's stance.

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His stance has always been the same, whether or not you agree is your concern. Third party programs are not allowed, FULL STOP.

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As the individual who is entrusted with full supervision over FFXIV

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As I have mentioned previously, the terms of service for FINAL FANTASY XIV state that the use of third-party tools is strictly prohibited. This has always been the case and will continue to be so, and unless announced otherwise, there are no plans to enact any changes.

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To which I agree 100%.

At this point, I'm surprised that people didn't understand their lesson... Cheating was already a thing with DSR, maybe even before, and a drama about it happened too...

Only thing that crossed my mind after seeing the title of the article made by Naoki Yoshida :

Ha shit... Here we go again...

When I started FF 14 I picked Summoner , rolled with it as Shadowbringers SMN changes came into effect. My first run in this new expac, more or less my first year...I did okay and then I hit a brick wall.

Level 77 Feast of Lies

I had never hit a fight like this before, was on a huge learning curve and really was not understanding fully of the mechanics for this fight...I didnt know that he had his OWN enrage, I remember talking to friends, asking what the hell I had done wrong. None of them twigged that I was referring to that separate enrage until a mentor said casually "yeah he has his own enrage, when xcxx happens BURN HIM DOWN FAST".

That one solo scenario took me eleven tries. I was frustrated, angry, pissed because I knew if I didnt finish this fight, I was blocked, no progression, no Eulmore.

5 am that morning, 70% humidity in a Sydney summer, I couldnt sleep...also disappointed in myself as three friends had been waiting for me to emerge, I admitted I had failed AGAIN..they said dont worry you will get it. It was going to be 33 degrees C that day..yeah ugh...

I rode through Kholusia determined to finish this, each stage seemed easier somehow as my hands knew the drill....got to that last NPC, my hands were shaking, my feet trembling as I blasted him again and again and again, my hands hurt but I didnt care..I got the adds down in a hurry.....something inside me clicked, all of a sudden I understood my rotation, KNEW what I had to do..he started his spell and I let him have both barrels ( I later joked that had there been a kitchen sink I would have used THAT as well )...Bahamut came up, ENKINDLE HELL YEAH, my hand stabbed down, Bahamut reared , bathed that sanctimonious jerk in a massive blast of azure fire....he went down.

He. went. down.

It took a moment to sink in.....sat there for ten seconds, my hands shaking.The rest of the cutscene ran on , in a few minutes I stood in Eulmore, no one to welcome me, it didnt matter. Attuning to that crystal was above all the sweetest victory. . I was elated, satisfied, most of all a massive feeling of triumph.

Id earned it

Alone.

To this day I remember that fight struggling to learn, to see what my mistake was and how to fix it, how to beat this encounter. I did it unaided...I guess all of us have had those moments in one game or another when we think "what the hell do I do here, how do I beat this", every single gamer has had at least one of those times.

To me at least, having any addons or callouts would have taken away from that moment, it was me or him, one on one....to be honest..I would never have had it any other way.

Yo I’m happy for you and all that but I think that’s a little bit different scenario than remembering positioning for Run: mi(sigma version) 12 minutes into the fight.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

When I started FF 14 I picked Summoner , rolled with it as Shadowbringers SMN changes came into effect. My first run in this new expac, more or less my first year...I did okay and then I hit a brick wall.

Level 77 Feast of Lies

I had never hit a fight like this before, was on a huge learning curve and really was not understanding fully of the mechanics for this fight...I didnt know that he had his OWN enrage, I remember talking to friends, asking what the hell I had done wrong. None of them twigged that I was referring to that separate enrage until a mentor said casually "yeah he has his own enrage, when xcxx happens BURN HIM DOWN FAST".

That one solo scenario took me eleven tries. I was frustrated, angry, pissed because I knew if I didnt finish this fight, I was blocked, no progression, no Eulmore.

5 am that morning, 70% humidity in a Sydney summer, I couldnt sleep...also disappointed in myself as three friends had been waiting for me to emerge, I admitted I had failed AGAIN..they said dont worry you will get it. It was going to be 33 degrees C that day..yeah ugh...

I rode through Kholusia determined to finish this, each stage seemed easier somehow as my hands knew the drill....got to that last NPC, my hands were shaking, my feet trembling as I blasted him again and again and again, my hands hurt but I didnt care..I got the adds down in a hurry.....something inside me clicked, all of a sudden I understood my rotation, KNEW what I had to do..he started his spell and I let him have both barrels ( I later joked that had there been a kitchen sink I would have used THAT as well )...Bahamut came up, ENKINDLE HELL YEAH, my hand stabbed down, Bahamut reared , bathed that sanctimonious jerk in a massive blast of azure fire....he went down.

He. went. down.

It took a moment to sink in.....sat there for ten seconds, my hands shaking.The rest of the cutscene ran on , in a few minutes I stood in Eulmore, no one to welcome me, it didnt matter. Attuning to that crystal was above all the sweetest victory. . I was elated, satisfied, most of all a massive feeling of triumph.

Id earned it

Alone.

To this day I remember that fight struggling to learn, to see what my mistake was and how to fix it, how to beat this encounter. I did it unaided...I guess all of us have had those moments in one game or another when we think "what the hell do I do here, how do I beat this", every single gamer has had at least one of those times.

To me at least, having any addons or callouts would have taken away from that moment, it was me or him, one on one....to be honest..I would never have had it any other way.

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You...realize you're comparing a year old MSQ instance to current tier Ultimate right?

Sweet story though, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Raim

Removing content that like 3% of people clear and using those resources for content that everyone does would do the opposite of kill the game.

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I think this is a fact and the take away that a lot are missing from the conversation or simply can't fathom what an abysmally low number of players participate in this content vs the amount of time it takes to develop. Every day this game is less a "game" and more a social experience just look at this game on twitch most of the front page is usually a club or dance or some social event. And so what if thats what the player base wants? I would love to see SE do a poll to see what players would prefer, new social features like expanded housing, portraits, glam systems etc. or Ultimates. I dont blame them if they shifted resources away from harder content, and a lot would likely even prefer it.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

They should just get rid of ultimate's and put the funding to normal duties and fix the head gear, hair styles to Viera and Hrothgar.

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^^ This sentiment exactly.

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You...realize you're comparing a year old MSQ instance to current tier Ultimate right?

Sweet story though, I guess.

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Yo I’m happy for you and all that but I think that’s a little bit different scenario than remembering positioning for Run: mi(sigma version) 12 minutes into the fight.

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You are both missing my point. The victory for me was that much sweeter because there were no addons, no callouts, nothing but the vanilla UI, my own skill and knowledge...in as much the same way as a raid team will relish their victory in Ultimate for that very same reason.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

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Share numbers or refrain from giving your opinion. Also: this game will never turn into Second Life anime version, give up hope. Savage has a very large percentage of participation, so they have no reason to give up actual content to catter to people treating the game as a glorified chat.

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Originally Posted by DubiousDisk

You...realize you're comparing a year old MSQ instance to current tier Ultimate right?

Sweet story though, I guess.

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I don't think it matters. Solo instance, ultimate? All of that follows the same pattern of learning, memorizing and executing. All of those 3 equal in importance. And early phases and especially World First race is the part where the first two are at least in theory done without shortcuts. I won't pretend that I know which exactly call-out plugin was used. Did they have to input data manually or did if read the data from within the game directly and anounced it? I don't know. But the program takes away from the second and occasionally the first aspect of progression. It (same as doping in traditional sports) really makes me wonder... What's the point? Is victory in unofficial race that important you have to take shortcuts even if you risk getting found out? What's the point for devs to design content like ultimate and tuning it to be clearable albeit difficult if players are going to take "shortcuts" like that? What's the point of players officially asking for difficult "endgame" content if they'll "cheat" to clear it when it's released? Why bother?

I think the DEV spend too much time creating the ultimate raid instead of the rewards from it. I don't feel that is worth the time and effort invested on such a difficuty level just to get it for glamor and the title it should be even more rewarding . At present I would prefer to watch players on twitch doing it than personally attempt it.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

You are both missing my point. The victory for me was that much sweeter because there were no addons, no callouts, nothing but the vanilla UI, my own skill and knowledge...in as much the same way as a raid team will relish their victory in Ultimate for that very same reason.

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And you're missing a very important point yourself. These guys are aiming for something else beyond that. Sure, I have no doubt they could clear the fight legit "eventually". But unlike you who just tried to clear thing in a vacuum of your own pace, these guys was in a race with others for the world first clear. It's no different then why some athlete cheat, even the very top one (think Lance Armstrong), or people try to cheat on a difficult exam.

The "reason" you're using to preach is pretty much irrelevant and meaningless to these teams because that's not the "why" they were trying to clear the fight for. They did it for the recognition and the pat on their ego as a world first raiders. This is like pretending to be a monk preaching personal enlightenment to an oil baron.

If ultimates are too hard for even the best of the playerbase, and they have to cheat to pass them, then why bother making them, right?
Obviously nobody is good enough to actually clear it, so why bother spending the time to make it.
They can do more content, like going back to 2 dungeons per patch instead.

What I want to know is why the forums are in uproar and Yoshida is going out of his way to write official "disappointed parent" rants because someone cheated in Ultimate, when bots are cheating literally every day in full view in content the entire playerbase runs. The markets are eternally flooded with bot crafted items, gathering nodes and fish spots have bots at them 24/7, they're cheating in PvP, there are bots to automate your rotation that you can actually see and search online, there are bots to relist items and scan for market niches, there are armies of RMT bots sitting under Limsa or porting around doing MSQ.

But never mind that, small indie company, can't fix it. One team cheated in the new Ultimate, uproar time.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

If ultimates are too hard for even the best of the playerbase, and they have to cheat to pass them, then why bother making them, right?
Obviously nobody is good enough to actually clear it, so why bother spending the time to make it.
They can do more content, like going back to 2 dungeons per patch instead.

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They don't cheat because it's too hard, they cheat because it gives them an edge in the World Race.
But I smell bad faith from this post so maybe I'm just getting trolled.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

When I started FF 14 I picked Summoner , rolled with it as Shadowbringers SMN changes came into effect. My first run in this new expac, more or less my first year...I did okay and then I hit a brick wall.

Level 77 Feast of Lies

I had never hit a fight like this before, was on a huge learning curve and really was not understanding fully of the mechanics for this fight...I didnt know that he had his OWN enrage, I remember talking to friends, asking what the hell I had done wrong. None of them twigged that I was referring to that separate enrage until a mentor said casually "yeah he has his own enrage, when xcxx happens BURN HIM DOWN FAST".

That one solo scenario took me eleven tries. I was frustrated, angry, pissed because I knew if I didnt finish this fight, I was blocked, no progression, no Eulmore.

5 am that morning, 70% humidity in a Sydney summer, I couldnt sleep...also disappointed in myself as three friends had been waiting for me to emerge, I admitted I had failed AGAIN..they said dont worry you will get it. It was going to be 33 degrees C that day..yeah ugh...

I rode through Kholusia determined to finish this, each stage seemed easier somehow as my hands knew the drill....got to that last NPC, my hands were shaking, my feet trembling as I blasted him again and again and again, my hands hurt but I didnt care..I got the adds down in a hurry.....something inside me clicked, all of a sudden I understood my rotation, KNEW what I had to do..he started his spell and I let him have both barrels ( I later joked that had there been a kitchen sink I would have used THAT as well )...Bahamut came up, ENKINDLE HELL YEAH, my hand stabbed down, Bahamut reared , bathed that sanctimonious jerk in a massive blast of azure fire....he went down.

He. went. down.

It took a moment to sink in.....sat there for ten seconds, my hands shaking.The rest of the cutscene ran on , in a few minutes I stood in Eulmore, no one to welcome me, it didnt matter. Attuning to that crystal was above all the sweetest victory. . I was elated, satisfied, most of all a massive feeling of triumph.

Id earned it

Alone.

To this day I remember that fight struggling to learn, to see what my mistake was and how to fix it, how to beat this encounter. I did it unaided...I guess all of us have had those moments in one game or another when we think "what the hell do I do here, how do I beat this", every single gamer has had at least one of those times.

To me at least, having any addons or callouts would have taken away from that moment, it was me or him, one on one....to be honest..I would never have had it any other way.

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Imagine being so bad at XIV you couldn't do a solo instance. This confirms you've been carried in any content you've done with others

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

What I want to know is why the forums are in uproar and Yoshida is going out of his way to write official "disappointed parent" rants because someone cheated in Ultimate, when bots are cheating literally every day in full view in content the entire playerbase runs. The markets are eternally flooded with bot crafted items, gathering nodes and fish spots have bots at them 24/7, they're cheating in PvP, there are bots to automate your rotation that you can actually see and search online, there are bots to relist items and scan for market niches, there are armies of RMT bots sitting under Limsa or porting around doing MSQ.

But never mind that, small indie company, can't fix it. One team cheated in the new Ultimate, uproar time.

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Please look forward to Eureka Pyros being full of rabbit-farmers.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

What I want to know is why the forums are in uproar and Yoshida is going out of his way to write official "disappointed parent" rants because someone cheated in Ultimate, when bots are cheating literally every day in full view in content the entire playerbase runs. The markets are eternally flooded with bot crafted items, gathering nodes and fish spots have bots at them 24/7, they're cheating in PvP, there are bots to automate your rotation that you can actually see and search online, there are bots to relist items and scan for market niches, there are armies of RMT bots sitting under Limsa or porting around doing MSQ.

But never mind that, small indie company, can't fix it. One team cheated in the new Ultimate, uproar time.

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Honestly, from a community and developer perspective, I think it's more about what that content is supposed to represent for the player base in addition to what the expectations are. Now granted, neither should happen, but from a development PoV if you do develop content expressly for players to challenge themselves, and then when said players do go off and undermine a sense of that challenge it can leave a bad taste in one's mouth.

I don't think this precludes the intensity or issues with PvP and other areas of the game, but if they were to treat that with the same nature, we'd be having apologetic letters until kingdom come, and similarly, this would be an uphill battle regardless. Further, people are just more apathetic to botting at this point, it practically comes with the territory of the game. - It's not really processed yet in this respect.

Similarly, for the community, most of the issues stem from the far-reaching consequences of the event itself effectively being so publicized, I mean ultimate prog has a lot more eyes on it than what traditional content does, speaking from the eyes that it brings. Whilst this does apply to raiding, how SE handles it, and how much people are inclined to climb that gradient of screwing around before they actually find out, can be applicable to the broader community.

It's effectively a sense of fear - If people push hard enough, other people will have the concern that they will consider going beyond blanket statements, and actually be more enforceable or proactive, loss of content (or more appropriately the missive comment regarding it) will already sting hard enough for a lot of players, let alone if they were for whatever reason not hold restraint. - In a sense, if they were to go at it harder, you'd be more likely to see people miss out on using tools and such for genuine accessibility reasons and concerns, or for people who just glamour mod.

It's an isolated case, but it applies much more to the broader community, and stuff like this just serves to push SE harder in one direction until it's a point of no return.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Oh please it's not that dramatic.

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It actually is, because this isn't the first time he has had to say something about the addons.
He has said like 2 other times about this to my knowledge.
He is pretty much saying: "They are forbidden, but we aren't going to our way to catch people using addons..."
Don't ask - Don't tell. But these jokes of bad players did a whole show and tell and here we are, AGAIN.
Yoshi gonna get pissed off eventually because people will not listen to him and slapping him in the face.

Ya'll keep on up with this sheet and we're going to get spyware on our PC's.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

It actually is, because this isn't the first time he has had to say something about the addons.
He has said like 2 other times about this to my knowledge.
He is pretty much saying: "They are forbidden, but we aren't going to our way to catch people using addons..."
Don't ask - Don't tell. But these jokes of bad players did a whole show and tell and here we are, AGAIN.
Yoshi gonna get pissed off eventually because people will not listen to him and slapping him in the face.

Ya'll keep on up with this sheet and we're going to get spyware on our PC's.

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Hey if Yoshida wants to kill the game instead of evolving that's on him

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Hey if Yoshida wants to kill the game instead of evolving that's on him

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On one hand - I still say he needs to up his game and add more QoL stuff. This is needed bad.
On the other - I still think is flipped up people just can't respect his simple plea.

Like he is begging people to not use it but since they don't know who uses it, keep it to yourself.
We're just pushing the buttons and limits here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jybril

On one hand - I still say he needs to up his game and add more QoL stuff. This is needed bad.
On the other - I still think is flipped up people just can't respect his simple plea.

Like he is begging people to not use it but since they don't know who uses it, keep it to yourself.
We're just pushing the buttons and limits here.

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His simple plea is not worth respecting

I didn't view it as a threat, he prefaced what he said by being his personal view that he questions why they make ultimate content if people use 3rd party programs/addons to clear the most challenging content when the content is designed and tested to ensure it can be done without them.

That said, I don't blame him for feeling that way. I think ultimate content is really good for the health of the game and it should take a while to clear. WoW's hardest content takes weeks to get world first clears sometimes, and I think that injects interest and engagement from the community when they have official world-first clears for hard content, and I'm happy to hear that they're planning this for FFXIV in the future. The difference between the two being that WOW players almost all use addons which is sanctioned by Blizzard, needing addons is seen as lazy design by many and that's not something SE is willing to tolerate for their game, if that's the rules then that's the rules and players should abide by them..

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

What I want to know is why the forums are in uproar and Yoshida is going out of his way to write official "disappointed parent" rants because someone cheated in Ultimate, when bots are cheating literally every day in full view in content the entire playerbase runs. The markets are eternally flooded with bot crafted items, gathering nodes and fish spots have bots at them 24/7, they're cheating in PvP, there are bots to automate your rotation that you can actually see and search online, there are bots to relist items and scan for market niches, there are armies of RMT bots sitting under Limsa or porting around doing MSQ.

But never mind that, small indie company, can't fix it. One team cheated in the new Ultimate, uproar time.

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You have to almost admire the hypocrisy. Those same players crying and moaning about third party tools don't give a hoot about RMT because they indirectly benefit from it. If something was actually done about the market boards being flooded then prices would skyrocket. So they'll just keep quiet about that and point to the meanie raiders using plugins in content most of them will never touch.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You have to almost admire the hypocrisy. Those same players crying and moaning about third party tools don't give a hoot about RMT because they indirectly benefit from it. If something was actually done about the market boards being flooded then prices would skyrocket. So they'll just keep quiet about that and point to the meanie raiders using plugins in content most of them will never touch.

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There is no hypocrisy present, people being peeved about this issue or not, does not consequentially mean that they don't despise other areas - this is very weak logic, with an overgeneralization. People have been vocal about everything that is fresh and ripe. They were just as vocal and meme-y about the venue that advertised on a billboard, they were just as vocal about brothels, and they'll be as about as vocal as everything else.

It's hardly about ' you meanie raiders' - But you're more than welcome to have that prerogative, as ridiculous it may be.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Good for him. Using add-ons in a game where it's scripted is really not needed and ruins the experience for everyone.

I'm waiting for bot checkers next. GO ON YOSHI!

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I'm all for getting rid of addons but SE needs to step up their game when it comes to benchmarking your Job. If I can't gauge how well I'm playing my MCH through ACT then how will I know I'm doing the best I possibly can? Stone, Sky, Sea? Please.