RDM underperforming by the way of neglect

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Originally Posted by FireMage

That's more of a *cries in Agdistis*

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Very true. And as I am now screeching at my static, *boils in unadulterated rage in p8s door boss stomp first*

RDM, on average and since 2 weeks ago, is contributing only 28 less dps than SMN.... 28... that's 9,194.27 vs 9,222.50... on p8s phase 1... to beat the damage check...
Heck might as well look on phase 2... and the dps score is... 10,055.08 vs 9,907.60... that's RDM beating the SMN on average with 148 more rdps...

I'm sorry, what exactly about this is underpowered?

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Originally Posted by jdgev

RDM, on average and since 2 weeks ago, is contributing only 28 less dps than SMN.... 28... that's 9,194.27 vs 9,222.50... on p8s phase 1... to beat the damage check...
Heck might as well look on phase 2... and the dps score is... 10,055.08 vs 9,907.60... that's RDM beating the SMN on average with 148 more rdps...

I'm sorry, what exactly about this is underpowered?

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Yes they have the pretty same DPS,
I'm not sure that a summoner and a red mage at the same level as an RDPS dancer are appropriate.
besides, even the bard who is strong, is totally put aside, because '' Dancer ''.

and there's such a big gap with melee.

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Originally Posted by remiff

Yes they have the pretty same DPS,
I'm not sure that a summoner and a red mage at the same level as an RDPS dancer are appropriate.
besides, even the bard who is strong, is totally put aside, because '' Dancer ''.

and there's such a big gap with melee.

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I agree with you that both RDM and SMN should have a bit more DPS or dancer less. What I said was simply to discredit the false statement that RDMs on savage have needed to switch to SMN to beat the raid dps check. It's completely bs and the difference is neglectable between both jobs. Meanwhile there is a gap between healers of 200 dps, and between tanks of 300 dps. Now THAT is a difference indeed. RDM is IN NO WAY underpowered relative to the other casters, it simply deals very slightly less dps, AS IT SHOULD.

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Originally Posted by jdgev

I agree with you that both RDM and SMN should have a bit more DPS or dancer less. What I said was simply to discredit the false statement that RDMs on savage have needed to switch to SMN to beat the raid dps check. It's completely bs and the difference is neglectable between both jobs. Meanwhile there is a gap between healers of 200 dps, and between tanks of 300 dps. Now THAT is a difference indeed. RDM is IN NO WAY underpowered relative to the other casters, it simply deals very slightly less dps, AS IT SHOULD.

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Found another shiny button enjoyer. :rolleyes:

Which colour of crayon is your favourite?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Found another shiny button enjoyer. :rolleyes:

Which colour of crayon is your favourite?

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Your point is ??? (terrible is what it is). If you disagree at least post something decent lol

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Originally Posted by jdgev

I agree with you that both RDM and SMN should have a bit more DPS or dancer less. What I said was simply to discredit the false statement that RDMs on savage have needed to switch to SMN to beat the raid dps check. It's completely bs and the difference is neglectable between both jobs. Meanwhile there is a gap between healers of 200 dps, and between tanks of 300 dps. Now THAT is a difference indeed. RDM is IN NO WAY underpowered relative to the other casters, it simply deals very slightly less dps, AS IT SHOULD.

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Red Mage should be where Reaper is. What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Red Mage should be where Reaper is. What are you talking about?

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Reason being? I don't think it's possible to argue that Red Mage should have more damage then Summoner AND BLACK MAGE if that were to be the case lol, unless you mean also buffing those other jobs dps. Verraise exists (thank god, really stupid arguments for removing it in favor of more dps going around lol...) and is insanely powerful. Doesn't matter if it's not optimal for speedclear, not every job has to focus on that. RDM being the lowest dps caster makes sense. But as I already posted above, the damage difference between RDM and SMN is tiny and both jobs can do savage without a problem.

Again, I agree ALL CASTERS overall damage compared to all jobs is a tad low yes, but RDM compared to other casters it's where it should be.

And again, caster balance is GOOD. All Jobs balance is BAD.

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Originally Posted by jdgev

Reason being? I don't think it's possible to argue that Red Mage should have more damage then Summoner AND BLACK MAGE if that were to be the case lol, unless you mean also buffing those other jobs dps. Verraise exists (thank god, really stupid arguments for removing it in favor of more dps going around lol...) and is insanely powerful. Doesn't matter if it's not optimal for speedclear, not every job has to focus on that. RDM being the lowest dps caster makes sense. But as I already posted above, the damage difference between RDM and SMN is tiny and both jobs can do savage without a problem.

Again, I agree ALL CASTERS overall damage compared to all jobs is a tad low yes, but RDM compared to other casters it's where it should be.

And again, caster balance is GOOD. All Jobs balance is BAD.

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Do your due diligence and read through the topic. Caster balance is not good right now

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Do your due diligence and read through the topic. Caster balance is not good right now

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I did, which is how I saw many others think caster balance is fine like me lol... while the arguments against basically boiled down to people hating on Veraise crying it's not optimal for Savage speed clear. I you don't want Veraise and want a bit more dps just go player SMN instead. The WHOLE POINT of RDM is being able to chain res and offer support (shield+damage+heal), while doing decent damage IN ANY CONTENT, not just world first savage raiding. You might be playing the wrong job if you think otherwise.

I'll just quote one of the many actually sane opinions from literally page 1 this thread:

"Underperforming by what margin? Because it seems to me that quite a lot of bad job design choices are made just to sate the egos of Parsers. Like tanks being homogenized beyond belief, TA/Mug, Ast Card rng, Kaiten removal, leans into auto-crits etc. I guess what I'm saying is be careful what you wish for. I'm well aware red mage isnt the hardest hitting caster but it's very fun to play, has a nice flow, does a bit of everything. One of the few jobs in xiv that matches its original job identity (jack of all trades), and doesnt have a single piece of jank in its kit. Plus one of the few jobs that actually has carry potential due to machine gun rezzes. I find it odd that you describe it as a turret job when you spend even more time moving around in EW than you did in SHB. Acceleration procs, dual cast, swiftcast are more than enough. Hold a charge when you know you have to move for mechanics and that problem is sorted. If anything I'd say summoner is the caster that needs the most help rn. Boring asf, no room to optimise, plays like a lv50 job etc." (Lustre)

Stop trying to promote removing class identity just because you want to do melee dps like damage as a rdm lol... rdm right now is 10x better than what is was in ShB. Stop looking at damage only. You don't play rdm to be nr 1 or 2 on dps charts. Red Mage in Final Fantasy is a jack of all trades kind of job, master of none.

Personally, for the future, I want an low to medium AOE Heal, A dual stance mechanic (like PvP) in PvE that augments certain abilities depending on stance, and an extra bar or job mechanic to super enchant melee attacks or boost black/white mana generation temporarily. WAY more fun and representative of what RDM is about imo, than just... uh.... "lets remove veraise for more damage"....

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Originally Posted by jdgev

Stop trying to promote removing class identity just because you want to do melee dps like damage as a rdm lol...

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To be fair it was the case not too long ago (5.5 for example), RDM was performing even better than melee jobs in some encounters. imo melee jobs are too strong rn, they need to show more love to casters and some physical range DPS.

For me RDM having rez skills is not all that important from savage content perspective, because in such cases anybody dying = total failure and an RDM wasting their firepower on rez actions means lower overall DPS.
Thus, the argument that RDM has lower DPS due to their rez capability doesn't really fly.

I also think the fact that RDMs are forced to be in melee range during their combo attacks is severe weakness compared to other caster jobs.
It also limits the mobility options due to how we need to be in the proximity of the enemy until we are done with the combo.
The combos are also not all that fast -- it feels like we are slinging a huge noodle or something. Can't we speed up the combo considering we are using super-light rapiers as weapons?

Combining the rapier combo buttons into one would also be helpful. Plenty of other jobs already have this.
Currently the rapier combos take up separate buttons, and I end up pressing the same button twice in some cases which is always sad... and would be really great to just be able to hit the same button 3 times.

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Originally Posted by jdgev

I did, which is how I saw many others think caster balance is fine like me lol... while the arguments against basically boiled down to people hating on Veraise crying it's not optimal for Savage speed clear. I you don't want Veraise and want a bit more dps just go player SMN instead. The WHOLE POINT of RDM is being able to chain res and offer support (shield+damage+heal), while doing decent damage IN ANY CONTENT, not just world first savage raiding. You might be playing the wrong job if you think otherwise.

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What you think is irrelevant to what is. RDM is far harder than SMN, has the worst mobility of the casters, has only Barrier for actual utility; caster balance is screwed for it to not be higher than SMN (why am I repeating myself?). And no, that is not the point of RDM, it is a DPS, that is its role. You might be playing the wrong Job if you think otherwise

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Originally Posted by jdgev

I did, which is how I saw many others think caster balance is fine like me lol... while the arguments against basically boiled down to people hating on Veraise crying it's not optimal for Savage speed clear. I you don't want Veraise and want a bit more dps just go player SMN instead. The WHOLE POINT of RDM is being able to chain res and offer support (shield+damage+heal), while doing decent damage IN ANY CONTENT, not just world first savage raiding. You might be playing the wrong job if you think otherwise.

I'll just quote one of the many actually sane opinions from literally page 1 this thread:

"Underperforming by what margin? Because it seems to me that quite a lot of bad job design choices are made just to sate the egos of Parsers. Like tanks being homogenized beyond belief, TA/Mug, Ast Card rng, Kaiten removal, leans into auto-crits etc. I guess what I'm saying is be careful what you wish for. I'm well aware red mage isnt the hardest hitting caster but it's very fun to play, has a nice flow, does a bit of everything. One of the few jobs in xiv that matches its original job identity (jack of all trades), and doesnt have a single piece of jank in its kit. Plus one of the few jobs that actually has carry potential due to machine gun rezzes. I find it odd that you describe it as a turret job when you spend even more time moving around in EW than you did in SHB. Acceleration procs, dual cast, swiftcast are more than enough. Hold a charge when you know you have to move for mechanics and that problem is sorted. If anything I'd say summoner is the caster that needs the most help rn. Boring asf, no room to optimise, plays like a lv50 job etc." (Lustre)

Stop trying to promote removing class identity just because you want to do melee dps like damage as a rdm lol... rdm right now is 10x better than what is was in ShB. Stop looking at damage only. You don't play rdm to be nr 1 or 2 on dps charts. Red Mage in Final Fantasy is a jack of all trades kind of job, master of none.

Personally, for the future, I want an low to medium AOE Heal, A dual stance mechanic (like PvP) in PvE that augments certain abilities depending on stance, and an extra bar or job mechanic to super enchant melee attacks or boost black/white mana generation temporarily. WAY more fun and representative of what RDM is about imo, than just... uh.... "lets remove veraise for more damage"....

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Sounds like you really wish RDM was in the healer role.

Personally I think that adding too much healing/regen effect on a DPS role is a design error, vercure is really useful for prog/downtime or casual content,
only for instant cast, but not particularly useful outside of theses situations there, so adding a medica effect when it is the role of healers who can already fully healing a group in 2-3s, is not appropriate for a DPS job,
like the arcane crest of the reaper which is more useful as a personal defense, or the summoner overlasting flight.

I really hope that squareenix completely removes this kind of healing effects on a DPS, a mitigation/shield is much more effective, or at the limit an instant personal heal like second wind in role action.

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Originally Posted by Ghost_of_Ebina

For me RDM having rez skills is not all that important from savage content perspective, ...

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Emphasis mine

This statement is why we are getting nowhere ITT - there are two different camps here. People that are running savage now are unhappy with RDM because it's not useful for early prog or for farming. For early prog, the raises aren't useful because deaths will prevent you from making the dps check. For farming, you don't need it because everyone should have the fight down and the rare deaths can be handled by a healer or SMN. The only place RDM excels in Savage is for late clearing groups (and maybe early prog just to try and see more of the fight), where their gear gives them enough cushion to survive the dps checks even if they have rez sickness.

The other group is people that play RDM for non-savage content, including EX's, particularly in PF. These fights also don't have big dps checks (and often don't even have enrages) so dying over and over isn't an issue, so the RDM's chain rez ability is great because it can save fights when people mess up or are just bad (particularly when your healers are dying over and over).

For group 1, RDM in its current form doesn't bring enough to the table, while for group 2, it's perfectly fine. I don't see any way to make both groups happy without adding some kind of new mechanic like "Rez Stance" (similar to the old cleric stance) where raising is only allowed in that stance but it penalizes your dps. (FWIW, I'm not being serious about adding this, I'm just trying to make a point that having a single job that satisfies both needs is going to be difficult.)

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

I don't see any way to make both groups happy without adding some kind of new mechanic like "Rez Stance" (similar to the old cleric stance) where raising is only allowed in that stance but it penalizes your dps. (FWIW, I'm not being serious about adding this, I'm just trying to make a point that having a single job that satisfies both needs is going to be difficult.)

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And so the monkey's paw started curling...

DPS wise, as a job with mobility limitations and support ability, RDM is midfielder.

Current screw-up is, that the midfield is EMPTY.

It is THAT gap between DNC/BRD and lowest melee, where support casters and selfish phys-ranged are supposed to live, but at the moment, nothing lives there.
Once that is fixed, we can have lazy debates, what should be the exact order of support casters and MCH, but it wouldn't really be of great import.

PS: someone suggested there, that DNC is somehow too high.
No. DNC is perfectly placed. It is - yet again- that too wide gap between it and melee, that is wrong.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Sounds like you really wish RDM was in the healer role.

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I don't play healers so no, but I want to be able to support properly and do everything a bit, which is how Red Mage works... I also rather have players that know 0 about the job fantasy to stop trying to streamline it removing key abilities and making it a "everything I do is for my dps" job because they dream of their dps charts every night in bed. All they have to do is to push 1 macro button to switch to another job that can do more dps so they can feel better.

This thread was made to complain about RDM damage. The problem isn't RDM damage, it's caster damage. All casters need to be buffed. It has nothing to do with RDM being underpowered in itself.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

What you think is irrelevant to what is. RDM is far harder than SMN, has the worst mobility of the casters, has only Barrier for actual utility; caster balance is screwed for it to not be higher than SMN (why am I repeating myself?). And no, that is not the point of RDM, it is a DPS, that is its role. You might be playing the wrong Job if you think otherwise

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I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider Embolden+Verraise+Vercure utility, but you are certainly living the dream huh. Oh, I guess according to you... Dancers and Bards aren't support either guys, they are just DPS! And healers are just glorified 1 button dps right? ... dude. Support jobs EXIST and they are within the dps role. Paladin is also a support focused tank (although badly implemented). It's not hard to understand. You are playing a job with strong support hating on it's support, and wishing it had the damage to compete with melees. That won't happen. Red Mage is an ALL AROUND DPS, so stop trying to discredit it's support which is a major part of it's gameplay.

Also, you are literally the only one here saying RDM should be higher than SMN in damage lol... that makes 0 sense. What they need is to fix the horrible job that is SMN right now.

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

EDIT: Please go look at RDM in the other FF games before anyone claims they should remove support abilities... it's not hard.... just type "Red Mage in ff games" or something in google and voila.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

And so the monkey's paw started curling...

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...which is exactly why I added my disclaimer about not being serious. :)

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

...which is exactly why I added my disclaimer about not being serious. :)

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I know, but we both know this part is disregarded by the monkey xD

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

Emphasis mine

This statement is why we are getting nowhere ITT - there are two different camps here. People that are running savage now are unhappy with RDM because it's not useful for early prog or for farming. For early prog, the raises aren't useful because deaths will prevent you from making the dps check. For farming, you don't need it because everyone should have the fight down and the rare deaths can be handled by a healer or SMN. The only place RDM excels in Savage is for late clearing groups (and maybe early prog just to try and see more of the fight), where their gear gives them enough cushion to survive the dps checks even if they have rez sickness.

The other group is people that play RDM for non-savage content, including EX's, particularly in PF. These fights also don't have big dps checks (and often don't even have enrages) so dying over and over isn't an issue, so the RDM's chain rez ability is great because it can save fights when people mess up or are just bad (particularly when your healers are dying over and over).

For group 1, RDM in its current form doesn't bring enough to the table, while for group 2, it's perfectly fine. I don't see any way to make both groups happy without adding some kind of new mechanic like "Rez Stance" (similar to the old cleric stance) where raising is only allowed in that stance but it penalizes your dps. (FWIW, I'm not being serious about adding this, I'm just trying to make a point that having a single job that satisfies both needs is going to be difficult.)

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Yeah, but one camp knows what they're talking about, the other does not

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Originally Posted by jdgev

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

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Thank you, at least some sane voices....

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Originally Posted by jdgev

I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider Embolden+Verraise+Vercure utility, but you are certainly living the dream huh. Oh, I guess according to you... Dancers and Bards aren't support either guys, they are just DPS! And healers are just glorified 1 button dps right? ... dude. Support jobs EXIST and they are within the dps role. Paladin is also a support focused tank (although badly implemented). It's not hard to understand. You are playing a job with strong support hating on it's support, and wishing it had the damage to compete with melees. That won't happen. Red Mage is an ALL AROUND DPS, so stop trying to discredit it's support which is a major part of it's gameplay.

Also, you are literally the only one here saying RDM should be higher than SMN in damage lol... that makes 0 sense. What they need is to fix the horrible job that is SMN right now.

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

EDIT: Please go look at RDM in the other FF games before anyone claims they should remove support abilities... it's not hard.... just type "Red Mage in ff games" or something in google and voila.

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If you use Vercure to do anything but ready Dualcast in downtime in group content you are using it wrong. And RDM is not a spatula, it is a DPS. See that red around the Job icon? And there is no support role, it doesn't exist. rDPS buffs aren't support, they are the DPS of the person using them. It's clear you don't do high end content. And I've stated why SMN should be higher, and judging by the likes I'm getting...well, it's clear that others spoken on the matter by proxy

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Originally Posted by jdgev

I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider Embolden+Verraise+Vercure utility, but you are certainly living the dream huh. Oh, I guess according to you... Dancers and Bards aren't support either guys, they are just DPS! And healers are just glorified 1 button dps right? ... dude. Support jobs EXIST and they are within the dps role. Paladin is also a support focused tank (although badly implemented). It's not hard to understand. You are playing a job with strong support hating on it's support, and wishing it had the damage to compete with melees. That won't happen. Red Mage is an ALL AROUND DPS, so stop trying to discredit it's support which is a major part of it's gameplay.

Also, you are literally the only one here saying RDM should be higher than SMN in damage lol... that makes 0 sense. What they need is to fix the horrible job that is SMN right now.

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

EDIT: Please go look at RDM in the other FF games before anyone claims they should remove support abilities... it's not hard.... just type "Red Mage in ff games" or something in google and voila.

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A) Making a job complete trashcan tier within design realities of a given game for the sake of lore is asinine. Support jobs do not exist in this game anymore. "Support" is a derogatory word that describes lesser jobs that are objectively worse than non-support counterparts. Oh, but they get a worthless gimmick that has literally zero objective usefulness and only makes the clueless casual think that they are bringing something to the group.

B) "I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider sitting below SMN an acceptable state." Well, actually, I do - the kind who has no clue how to play the job well.

C) You know what SE has done to RDM since the pretty tragic state of the job in Stormblood? Added damage spells. Who would have guessed...

D) Explain one thing to me. Sage. ;)

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Originally Posted by jdgev

The WHOLE POINT of RDM is being able to chain res and offer support (shield+damage+heal), while doing decent damage IN ANY CONTENT, not just world first savage raiding. You might be playing the wrong job if you think otherwise

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It appears that someone actually didn't pay any attention to any of the quests or FFXIV version of RDM lore, if you actually think the "whole point" of RDM is to be a WHM lite. The "whole point" is to be a balance of white and black magic, and from lore perspective, do it in a way that's coming from your personal aether, not the surroundings. It is, as has been mentioned, a DPS class. The fact that it uses some white magic doesn't change this; we're all aware that white magic can be used for offense.

So, to break RDM down to literally just the meme of Rez Mage is oversimplifying what the job is, doesn't do it justice, and is largely just an attempt at distraction from the actual issue. That issue being that the utility that RDM brings is not of enough value in high level play to make up for the current damage deficit we experience (particularly felt with the recent tank/crit buffs benefiting nearly every other job at some level).

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Oh, but they get a worthless gimmick that has literally zero objective usefulness and only makes the clueless casual think that they are bringing something to the group.

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As much wrong stuff as the other person was spouting, this is pretty douchey, to be honest. Not to mention factually wrong in your attempt at emphasis considering the number of dungeons and raids I've salvaged with that "worthless gimmick". But hey, I'm just a clueless casual right? Even though I can recognize that said utility is not nearly as valuable in properly high level play as the damage RDM is behind by?

Let's maybe not spit on the majority of the playerbase because one random player doesn't seem to understand that the value of non-damage utility is far lower in Savage where runs need to be essentially clean this early in the tier. It diminishes the rest of your points to many people when you can't aim your criticism properly.

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That stuff aside,

As one of those filthy casuals, I actually enjoy how RDM plays a lot, honestly. I like my little attack boost, I like optional if almost always useless cure (because when it's not, it's fun to pull off). I like my raise, even if it's only useful in casual content. You know, what something like 85% of the players engage with for the vast majority of their play time. I like my magic barrier that helps healers top us off afterwards. I like that I have some mobility, but I still know that I'm playing a Caster. The job is engaging for me, but not so complex that I don't want to play it when I'm tired after a particularly long day of work. I can be useful in a number of ways, even if those ways often are simply making up for deficiencies in performance in casual content.

What I don't like, however, is that now a well geared tank with a decent player is going to do similar damage in a dungeon to a decently geared decent playing RDM. One is supposed to be a DPS class, one a tank, yet SE apparently forgot to buff the DPS classes that weren't going to be affected by the crit/direct hit stuff, so now they're less useful. I don't like that there's a similar disparity to SMN, where you'd have to be a notably better geared, definitely better RDM player just to do similar damage to a decently geared, decent playing SMN. Especially when SMN has more in common mobility wise with MCH than RDM anymore.

One more thing I don't like? That those who play RDM at actually good levels of play are getting even more left behind than those of us at a casual level. They're being taxed for a res that isn't of notable use this early in the tier when gear is so tight, and for mobility that they are by no close means the highest beneficiaries of anymore.

All in all, I enjoy the "casual friendly" design of the job. It has added complexity for those who can squeeze it out, but I prefer it largely as is. However, given changes to other jobs that have improved them, RDM needs some small buffs to bring it back to the playing field.

There's plenty of times in the past where Summoner didn't pay any sort of rez tax, scapegoating raise as the problem conveniently overlooks the fact that unlike BLM, MCH is constantly getting beaten out by its higher utility peers in rdps despite being the only class in the game with ZERO unique utility, nothing that helps others, and nothing that helps themselves. Obviously there's other things at play than utility when it comes to how the devs are balancing things.

Right now, the problem seems to be that SQEX is balancing around ease of play, including both people playing the hardcore content (Savage and Ultimate) and people playing more casual content (Alliance Raids and Trials). It's not uncommon to see Machinist crushing the competition early on when no one knows how to optimize fights, yet the devs seem to factor this early dominance into their balancing, thus making the "easy" jobs fall behind ridiculously hard compared to the harder ones once fights are learned.

I changed my mind, it does need looking at but mainly just potency increases. I'd rather they didnt change the job too much cause it's still really fun to play.

Right now the P8S fight is just toxic on casters. It's not just RDM underperforming. I personally feel SMN is also underperforming. Overall, they need to fix casters in general. It's just unacceptable that melee DPS have 10% more DPS than casters. BLM is likely to lack behind because movement is actually a pain this tier and I feel SMN is better only because movement is a thing.

I just find it obnoxious and unacceptable that both SMN and RDM are doing significantly worst DPS because of the "res tax" when my static is literally telling me to use swiftcast on DPS to beat the door boss enrage timer.

But the bigger picture is that Endwalker is the worst expansion in term of balance. RPRs are behind melees. MCH is just dead and do worst than other ranged phys. SMN/RDM get spots because in prog they have res. That'll be quickly removed on speed clears because BLM is still better. WAR/PLD are just really sad right now. But it's fine; lets tweak Samurai and invest all the time on DRG rework that we didn't put because they didn't consider the community would be really angry about removing Kaiten. Completely ignoring more basic and urgent issues.

If SE didn't forced having a caster and phys ranged, we'd run quad melee comps :<

Yes caster damage shouldn't be more than 5% difference, machinist should also be +- at the same DPS level,
or they should give him back synergy, bard should have a little bit more personal damage to compete with the dancer who is currently super strong due to his synergy with melee DPS,
the black mage also needs a very slight buff, even if he is good, he shouldn't be behind some melee DPS.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Right now the P8S fight is just toxic on casters. It's not just RDM underperforming. I personally feel SMN is also underperforming. Overall, they need to fix casters in general. It's just unacceptable that melee DPS have 10% more DPS than casters. BLM is likely to lack behind because movement is actually a pain this tier and I feel SMN is better only because movement is a thing.

I just find it obnoxious and unacceptable that both SMN and RDM are doing significantly worst DPS because of the "res tax" when my static is literally telling me to use swiftcast on DPS to beat the door boss enrage timer.

But the bigger picture is that Endwalker is the worst expansion in term of balance. RPRs are behind melees. MCH is just dead and do worst than other ranged phys. SMN/RDM get spots because in prog they have res. That'll be quickly removed on speed clears because BLM is still better. WAR/PLD are just really sad right now. But it's fine; lets tweak Samurai and invest all the time on DRG rework that we didn't put because they didn't consider the community would be really angry about removing Kaiten. Completely ignoring more basic and urgent issues.

If SE didn't forced having a caster and phys ranged, we'd run quad melee comps :<

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Don't worry. When tome gear starts to kick in, you'll see 3 meele + dnc/brd on party finder

gee whiz, I sure love playing better than ~90% of RDMs in P6S and doing less damage than a melee in my group without tome weapon who died :)

this is incredibly frustrating, especially in a raid tier where the only jobs that have to seriously think about uptime are the healers, RDM, and BLM. I didn't ask for the dumb barrier. if it's gonna make us do less than DNC, take it away. I don't want it if it means I can't do my role's actual job of doing DPS and get locked from PFs.

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Originally Posted by meaningtilt

gee whiz, I sure love playing better than ~90% of RDMs in P6S and doing less damage than a melee in my group without tome weapon who died :)

this is incredibly frustrating, especially in a raid tier where the only jobs that have to seriously think about uptime are the healers, RDM, and BLM. I didn't ask for the dumb barrier. if it's gonna make us do less than DNC, take it away. I don't want it if it means I can't do my role's actual job of doing DPS and get locked from PFs.

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Seriously verse was the last tier when RDM BLM and the healers weren’t the only ones actually punished with uptime optimisation yet balance always seems to be “think of the poor melees”

Whatever change dumped healers way back behind tanks also annoys me but that’s a different discussion

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Right now the P8S fight is just toxic on casters. It's not just RDM underperforming. I personally feel SMN is also underperforming. Overall, they need to fix casters in general. It's just unacceptable that melee DPS have 10% more DPS than casters. BLM is likely to lack behind because movement is actually a pain this tier and I feel SMN is better only because movement is a thing.

I just find it obnoxious and unacceptable that both SMN and RDM are doing significantly worst DPS because of the "res tax" when my static is literally telling me to use swiftcast on DPS to beat the door boss enrage timer.

But the bigger picture is that Endwalker is the worst expansion in term of balance. RPRs are behind melees. MCH is just dead and do worst than other ranged phys. SMN/RDM get spots because in prog they have res. That'll be quickly removed on speed clears because BLM is still better. WAR/PLD are just really sad right now. But it's fine; lets tweak Samurai and invest all the time on DRG rework that we didn't put because they didn't consider the community would be really angry about removing Kaiten. Completely ignoring more basic and urgent issues.

If SE didn't forced having a caster and phys ranged, we'd run quad melee comps :<

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Kaiten is still removed. The job deals dmg but still feels pretty dead in comparison too before. And like you said job balancing in this expansion is utter garbage. P8s door boss just emphasized on this with a super tight dps check, we’re if you don’t bring anything but a 2/1/1 comp you effectively sandbag the group. Like we tried 1/2/1 and couldn’t do the dps check with a war in the group because of this (so he swapped to gnb and effectively we did it no problem even with a dmg down on sage)

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Kaiten is still removed. The job deals dmg but still feels pretty dead in comparison too before. And like you said job balancing in this expansion is utter garbage. P8s door boss just emphasized on this with a super tight dps check, we’re if you don’t bring anything but a 2/1/1 comp you effectively sandbag the group. Like we tried 1/2/1 and couldn’t do the dps check with a war in the group because of this (so he swapped to gnb and effectively we did it no problem even with a dmg down on sage)

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Yup, you bring 2 melee DPS now. TPS went with double Casters and they got wrecked on the DPS check. Pretty sure its the last tier this expansion Sfia is going Black Mage.

Funny enough, the only time there would be melee downtime is during Car 2 and they've made the boss invulnerable :) Because everyone should lose uptime if melee lose uptime.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Yup, you bring 2 melee DPS now. TPS went with double Casters and they got wrecked on the DPS check. Pretty sure its the last tier this expansion Sfia is going Black Mage.

Funny enough, the only time there would be melee downtime is during Car 2 and they've made the boss invulnerable :) Because everyone should lose uptime if melee lose uptime.

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Big brain boss design. Make ranged dps have way less dmg then meeles and make the only good phase we’re ranged could shine a no uptime mechanic

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Big brain boss design. Make ranged dps have way less dmg then meeles and make the only good phase we’re ranged could shine a no uptime mechanic

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It's just. They changed the fight designs to prevent melee downtime without compensating Casters and Ranged Physical DPS. It's the same bs as when they took piercing debuff away and never compensated Ranged Physical.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Ok so what's the margin? What's the difference in damage % between the casters?

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...7.55.22_PM.png

I'm at the point where I would unironically delete verraise for 10 potency on jolt, that's how bad it's gotten