Alerith and Chardrizard make some great points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
While it may take new players (PS3, 2.0 newbies) time to amass a large amount of Gil starting after us, it's not really an issue for players who invest just a little amount of time actually trying out a few things.
I only recently decided to level up my Blacksmith & Armorer & Miner from Level 1. One thing that many might have overlooked is just how *fair* and *easy* it is to make the level appropriate gear even if you're starting from scratch (without millions of gil). For example:
My first upgrade for Blacksmith Tool was a Bronze Cross-pein Hammer (Level 8). It was SO refreshing to find out, I could actually craft my own next Tool upgrade *as* a Level 8 Blacksmith (with a Weathered Hammer)! :) The materials for this recipe?
* Bronze Ingot - Which I got free from Guildleves.
* Undyed Hempen Cloth - Level 3 Clothcraft Synth (and it's easy to get Moko Grass).
* Maple Lumber - Level 3 Carpenter Synth (and Maple Logs are so easy to get in Grade 1 areas just outside town).
(FYI: Every single one of my Tool Upgrades since then have been easily made by myself, with mostly Free Materials gained from Guildleves and/or gathering (low-level))
Another example is a Dodoskin Harness (Level 12 gear, easily made by a Level ~8+ Leatherworker): Requiring all Low Level Materials that are easily craftable *by yourself* if you really wanted to do it (and the mats are easily acquired): Bronze Ingot, Dodo Leather, Sheep Leather.
And as Chard mentions, most of the best gear is U/U, so it can't be bought anyways. You earn it.
Yoshida-san & Team have really made XIV more user-friendly and newbie-friendly to get into the game, to get many materials for free from Guildleves and make the options of crafting and gathering your own gear VERY viable. :)
And there are plenty of the Low-Mid Level NMs that drop Free U/U Gear as well (with their 2 - 5 minute respawns) that also help gear up new players as they progress.
Fresh Start will ruin 2.0
Printable View
-
06-02-2012, 01:21 AMKiara
-
06-02-2012, 01:39 AMBiggs
Man I need a dollar for everytime you posted about how something will ruin, or is ruining this game. Could quit my day job.
-
06-02-2012, 02:58 AMAzurymber
Yes, well when this game succeeds and starts turning a profit for SE you can complain that I'm a troll. But for now this game is borderline failing (and just gave up they best chance of marketing for 2.0 by not showcasing it at E3). So if I notice something that will make the game fail more-so than it currently is, I'm going to point it out in hopes that someone intelligent realizes what mistakes they are making.
As much as you hate me, most of the negative stuff I claimed would happen (server merges, economies centralizing in ul'dah and other cities dying, shift away from open world to instanced stuff) all happened, regardless of people saying "ZOMG YOUR A TROLLLLLLL"
And I do my best to contribute to the community, as I've created numerous guides ppl seem to find useful.
So if you don't like my argument make a serious educated counter-argument instead of "ZoMg NUH uhhhhhh THAT WOULDNT HAPPEN, dUHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" -
06-02-2012, 03:12 AMZyphI did, 7 pages ago, and it was ignored. My only logical conclusion for when a serious educated argument is blatantly ignored is either the person is a troll or immature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
06-02-2012, 03:16 AMTango
The economies will never experience hyper inflation their are no sellable items worth hyper inflated prices. There is no such thing as a peacock charm or cassie earring things that make a large difference in your players performance which are not R/EX. The idea that materia is a serious gamble will always keep the prices on the best materia under control also the ease of creation keeps supply and demand on materia in check. This self controls the prices without needing massive outside gil sinks. Some items grow in demand like INT materia with the Garuda burn craze but still INT will never reach the million gil territory. In FFXI you felt like you had to have a certain amount of gil to participate in some activities but so far the gil sinks are almost non existant and the economy runs smooth despite low populations. The constant destruction of gear through materia keeps gil moving from gatherer<crafter<battle etc each relies on the other for its needs.
There is a MONSTEROUS number of players who will not consider playing on a well established server, getting in from day 1 on a new economy is the draw for many new/returning players and if you prevent this then you are seriously hindering the longevity of FFXIV. You only worry about inflation and SE's ability to police its economies but they have shown with Ragnarok they are willing to put in special measures if 1 server is severely different then the rest. -
06-02-2012, 03:21 AMZyph
In addition to what Tango said, it's also really difficult to run and gauge a stable economy with our current market ward system. Price checking is difficult, sometimes items that haven't been sold in a while don't show up, and the interface is unruley for checking the price history, leading to people selling things at whatever price.
It'll be way easier to gauge market trends when they implement a true auction house, and sites like FFXIVPro set up their price trackers and fancy graphs. -
06-02-2012, 03:32 AMGilraen
Another problem is the characters themselves. Economy aside, if the servers aren't reset (you never wondered why they save your character creation settings? Really?) then you're going to have alot of players running around fresh from the first story instance and alot of players sporting paragon crowns and very little in between. By resetting the servers everyone will start fresh from the first story instance and noone will be forced to have to trudge to catch up (also remember, PLing as we know it will hopefully cease to exist). We need server resets for 2.0. No other way about it.
-
06-02-2012, 03:33 AMThebard
So 2.0 will be the death of FFXIV? Why didn't somebody tell me!
-
06-02-2012, 03:38 AMTheVedisthey arent going to reset the servers thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilraen
the "fresh start" many people talk of are NEW servers that have only new players on them, no old players
so we take our 10 servers now, and at 2.0 add 10 more for instance that new players will have a choice to go to.
so no, we dont need to reset current servers, but giving people that option of starting on a fresh server isnt a bad idea, alot will take it, and alot wont. leave that up to the players
but reseting everyone is just retarded -
06-02-2012, 03:46 AMGilraen
Ah. Still, my point stands. New people will see those empty servers and make the rather intelligent connection of "Empty Server =/= Lots of Players" and will still wind up trying to get on one of the more populous servers. It's going to wind up being a forced issue as new players are turned away from large servers by capacity caps.
Server resets aren't something new and, honestly, I don't think it's all that retarded. Remember, this isn't really retail. What everyone paid for was an extended beta that resulted in getting the game rebuilt from he ground up. 2.0 is going to be the full version, so to speak, so a server reset is not out of the question. Though... I would miss my level 50 character... -
06-02-2012, 04:16 AMNix
They've already said they will not reset character data, if they did you can bet they'd lose a looooot of people.
-
06-02-2012, 04:18 AMTheVedisI dont think you understand the big picture though, in the endQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilraen
no matter what game you play, new players come in, and players will have already been estiablished
if every game reset everyone every time new players came in, no one would play any game
it is probly the 1 thing you can do to literaly kill any game outright, with no chance of ever recovering, you CAN NOT reset players progress once the game is under way ever.
will some people want to go to established servers? sure they will, but i think you underestimate how many will want to go to new fresh servers too. being on a new server is an experience all to itself that many people never get to experience after the launch of a game. so being able to get that experience again will be a big plus for many people who do want it.
and fyi, this IS retail, this is the main game, this IS NOT a beta, no matter how you look at it, we are PAYING for what we are doing, we paid for the game, we paid for our characters, etc etc etc
and we were specificaly promised that no progress reset would ever happen
that alone is the end of the discussion on it, as anything you look into it beyond that is pointless since it wont happen ever -
06-02-2012, 04:30 AMJudge_Xero
Reading all these posts really makes me miss when FFXIV went live.
How a lot of the craft details had to be found.
When brass nuggets were 10k
Iron Nails were 70k
The building of the economy was a pretty exciting part of it.
Crafters had to shout in the cities about what products they had for sale. they kept items in their bazaar for sale.
Things cost a lot more, but they were also a lot harder to aquire.
Kids don't know how good they have it these days ^^
Fresh servers for "new players" will be great in 2.0 as it's all part of the experience. -
06-02-2012, 04:48 AMNixThe 100k for a lv5 weapon? oh I miss those days! hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
-
06-02-2012, 05:19 AMAzurymber
Inflation can easily occur overnight.
lets say you have 30mil
And its christmas eve
RMTs sell gil for $1 per mil
Billions of stored up gil pour into the economy
Your 30mil which could have bought you some of the best gear yesterday can now buy you a single-melded upper tier bow only....
Thats what happened in ffxi and it will almost 100% happen here since there is so much gil "stored" up. The economy is only smooth now because people horde gil so that if they release something like dynamis weapons they will have tons of gil stored up.
Once there is something for them to spend it on, they (and prob ppl buying gil from rmt) will flood the current servers with massive amounts of gil which will cause prices to skyrocket.
And then if they try to "fix" those servers they will hurt the new servers in the process
UNLESS they treat servers differently, in which case there won't be any problem.
The problem arises when you try to fix inflation on 6 servers and effect the 3 non-inflated servers in the process.
This happened in FFXI and there was much less gil stored up. So it's very realistic and likely -
06-02-2012, 05:21 AMZenakuya there not doing that but the op think if they make new servers that only level 1 some how that going to ruin the other worlds with facts that she/he think they know when at the end they don't know jack about mmo. The cost to enter event A would be change to how much gil a person can make not how much money players have -.- the op is just wasting there time because they still not getting the point they trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nix
-
06-02-2012, 05:26 AMZyphDo you not realize that the best way to fix this is to ban RMTs and revoke the gil from people who bought it from them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
06-02-2012, 05:40 AMPandastirfryWhat truly percipitated most of FFXI's economic woes as a result of RMT had more to do with poor design then anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Because both Gil and crafting supplies were such rare commodities in XI they were far more susceptible to drastic value swing by a sudden influx of one or the other, couple that with the heavy handed over correction undertaken by both SE and the player base and you hand the massive implosions that occurred. The economy wasn't given any time to settle before people went all chicken little and reenacted the run on the banks on black tuesday.
In XIV, with both Gil and crafting supplies being not only plentiful, but much easier to acquire, they are far less suceptible to dramatic swings in value, even with a massive influx, and an attempted inflation in price, the relative ease of acquiring the commodity you want in your own will cause any period of hyperinflation to be short lived. In XIV there is no particular item that can be effectively monopolized.
You're worrying about hypotheticals, you may as well start a thread about how they should Dec.21, 2012 proof the servers or it will ruin the game because what if the Mayans were right!? -
06-02-2012, 07:07 AMPunainen
Why does everyone say that everyone has 40 mil?? I have 3 mil... wtf...
-
06-02-2012, 07:40 AMZenakuMost JP players who been playing sense day one have over 200mil a lot of people have cap money lol i myself been playing sense day 1 and i only starting to make money which i have 10milQuote:
Originally Posted by Punainen
-
06-02-2012, 07:44 AMSoukyuu
Honestly, I think not making new servers for new players will lead to more problems especially with how low level gear is priced atm. When you give new players completely fresh servers, they can balance them themselves.
I still have my dated sheepskin harness.... which cost me 80k...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nix
I don't even have that.... but I heard someone saying they're running low on gil... their definition of "low" being 30 mil lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Punainen
-
06-02-2012, 09:54 AMAlerithThat's disgusting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Soukyuu
I always have just enough on me to cover repairs, and maybe to buy a maddening potion for a major event. I almost never have more than 40k on me, let alone 40 mil. xD
(I also don't craft. I sustain myself off Broken Water leves) -
06-02-2012, 10:14 AMElexiaPretty much everyone who played since 2010 had well into the xx million range simply because of guildleves alone, especially those who actually leveled crafts and made a killing on the new 'must have' gear, i.e cobalt etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punainen
-
06-02-2012, 10:35 AMRyuko
I think it will be fine and the economy will even itself out no matter what.
I remember taking a long break from FFXI while inflation was really high. At some point during my break, a lot of gil was removed from the system as a large group of gilfarmers were banned. I came back to the game with 2mil (which was not much when I left) and found out that I could basically buy ANYTHING I wanted... but that didn't last long. Like a person who wins the lottery, my surplus eventually ran out... and I was back at the level of supply/demand that everyone else was.
The economy won't be broken by even a fresh start because...
People are not entirely reliant on 'buying' gear. If you are resourceful/dedicated, you can farm items yourself and have yourself or a friend synth the item. I could say, "all of the mats for this item are worth X amount of gil, so the item itself should be worth at least this much...," but that's only really applicable if I plan on putting it in the retainer system. If I farm all of the items myself (assuming the drop rate is NOT adjusted), it will still take just as much time/effort as it once did. I believe that people who buy items do so out of convenience only.
I might buy a stack of karakul rather than farming it because I'm simply too lazy to farm, for instance. New players will not have the convenience right away, and will be forced to do everything the hard way... still, a steady income from leves and their own ability to be self sufficient will mean that fluctuation of gil won't really matter that much because EVERYTHING will scale eventually... especially if it is regulated by leve/quest rewards. Remember: all gil comes from some source, and all of the gil currently in the game originally came from quest rewards or mob drops. That's it.
If one hoarder who has 100m gil saves it and then uses it when the prices on everything drop, it won't matter THAT MUCH... because while 100m seems like a lot, and it will definitely mess with the price of the item(s) that they have bought temporarily, it will STILL balance out and in the grand scheme of things, 100m is nothing compared to all of the gil on the server.
We also don't really live in a capitalist game. There are some people with capped jobs and great gear, but very rarely is a monopoly found because most of us are on the same level with the same opportunities. It's not like 'real life' where 'who you know' means everything. Sure, a successful ls will lead to killing bosses that drop good/expensive items, but it won't make you SO MUCH richer than the rest of the server. Those who are rich work to be, and if you REALLY wanted to be rich, all it takes is a little bit of research, intelligence, and patience. Anyone can get the 'best' synthed gear if they wanted to... they just need to work for it. -
06-02-2012, 11:11 AMChardrizardOmg, While yes inflation does happens, the basic rules of demands and supply also applies.... materia isn't exactly as rare as damaescene cloth or damascus ingot needed to craft nor does the material needed to make mats, everything is so easy to obtain. That on top of alot of gear alternative comes from GC company and Raids, there are hardly ever reason to buy anything from AH unlike in FFXI where you need to buy everything until you can get your AFs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Alot of gears are provided in other method and not only in crafting on various levels.
so no, your scenario doesn't work. -
06-02-2012, 12:36 PMAzurymbereither my scenario works or gil is completely and utterly useless and shouldn't matter at all in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
that or you don't understand what supply and demand is.... -
06-02-2012, 01:05 PMEremor
/threadderail
That's actually pretty much the definition of capitalism, just not American capitalism. I just thought this was really funny and indicative of the fact that American capitalism is as far from true capitalism as true socialism is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuko
/endthreadderail -
06-02-2012, 01:33 PMChardrizardGil isn't completely useless, but we have so many alternatives in terms of gears that people can get away fine without gil, people with gil will still be able to improve their character with multiple melds, but people that go all the way to multi melds their character are in minority, hence the low demands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
It's difference in FFXI where alot of best gears in slot was obtained from AH because most of endgame gear wasn't available to 90% of the playerbase (Ground HNMs) and people needed something or more like expected to wear something before they obtain the other gears (Dynamis/Limbus) because AF is crap in FFXI. -
06-02-2012, 01:58 PMToxsik
For the love of god, get over the gil issue, either you worked to accumulate it or you didn't, if you didn't your loss.
-
06-02-2012, 02:45 PMAzurymberomg...you said something smart o_o /impressedQuote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
The problem will be at patches when -everyone- wants the new gear. For a good 2-3 weeks there, if inflation occurs, only the super rich will be able to grab the new gear unless ppl farm it for themselves. New ppl will rage.
Prices will balance out over time but we already know from experience people overpay for brand new stuff. (Crafters gettin rich off cobalt and weapons and such)
I don't think anything will happen to make the game unplayable. But i do think inflation would be noticeable enough that people would complain, and SE would do something to "fix" it. And thats where the problem lies.
I guess you could say the main problem isn't the economy, but SE's inability to regulate said economy and tendency to overreact. -
06-02-2012, 02:57 PMZyphThat's the first thing you've said that I agree with. Also seems to be a pretty different opinion from your thread title, glad you're coming around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
The problem is not an economic one, it's a "how much SE listens to their playerbase" problem, which is the root of A LOT of other problems and general stupidity on these forums. -
06-02-2012, 04:31 PMJakeRoon
I don't think it's going to be as bad of a problem as you guys think.
Sure as you're born SE is gonna have some nice new sets of gear all ready to buy for higher level players right at launch of 2.0....gonna cost a FORTUNE. Everyone will buy it willy nilly blowing all those months of hard earned gil, thus "evening the playing field" (why do I feel like a commie typed that?) as you out it.
But even if they didn't, how is higher level / longer playing players having much more money really any different than any other mmo ever played? -
06-02-2012, 07:17 PMTonkra
I think there is no need for new servers..
the time that will pass till 2.0. is almost the same period of time which passed between Final Fantasy XI JP ->US->EU (chains of promathia)->Xbox360 release..
you have created your character on one of the "old" FFXI servers when you have been a european, and you also had a chance to catch up with other people.
so why there are new servers needed? im totally against it to split new players from the old.
if you create a new char on WoW servers now you also have a chance.
you will ever have a chance to catch up with the old players. the idea is so "carebear"...
old servers need new players to stay alive and to fresh it up! also in the low level..
totally stupid idea, if you ask me.. -
06-02-2012, 08:00 PMMrKupo
Considering SE is planning on adjusting Hamlet according to individual servers, I don't see how it is a farcry for them to adjust policies for economy based on individual servers also.
-
06-02-2012, 09:04 PMLaraulThese exploits and botters have no influence on me or most everyone else playing. I see NO REASON why they should be addressed just cuz you need a scapegoat. And economy is a living, breathing thing with a mind of it's own. You can not simply meld it to fit your whims. Doing so will ALWAYS cause it to bite you back in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
And when are you going to face that RMT are a part of the game? What's wrong with them? Because they let people "cheat"? Since when was performing a currency exchange cheating? And since when is it appropriate to tell others what they may do with their hard earned money. You know why they have that money? Cuz maybe they we're WORKING and NOT PLAYING THE GAME EARNING GIL.
I don't understand what any of this has to do with "fresh start" servers. I don't understand why all you offer is "what-ifs" and examples from FFXI, but never ask "what-if SE did nothing where would the economies in FFXI be today?" I don't understand why on one server the average amount of gil per person would matter. You provide no other information such as server population, or the server's GDP at the time. You only deal with fixed amounts, not percentages. No one deals in fixed amounts in the real world simply because it's not possible to measure economies that way. This entire post(s) is one big "what-if the RMT take over like FFXI" rant.
What I find most ironic, if I was as confident in how an economy was going to turn out as you are, the *last* thing I would do would be to try to do something that would change it as I would profit greatly. Perhaps this is part of some devious plan?!? -
06-03-2012, 12:23 AMRyukoYes, I am talking about capitalism in the American sense as I am assuming that a large amount of people reading this subset of the forums are NA (not EVERYONE... but a good amount for enough people to understand where I'm coming from).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremor
My point about monopolies being next to impossible in this game still stands. The only time I see a monopoly being truly possible is if/when they implement HNM's with 'the best gear in the game' that only pop a certain amount of times... THEN, you will see LS's camping them like you wouldn't believe, getting the gear, and once they have equipped everyone they wanted to, selling it for whatever price they deem necessary. That isn't happening right now. Getting any piece of crafted gear REALLY isn't that hard if your mind is set on it.
How hard is it, really, to get a crafting job to 50, gear it appropriately, and get the items to make an expensive piece of gear? It's not even comparable to how hard it is in real life, in any country, no matter what type of capitalism your country utilizes.
Do you really think this game is the definition of capitalism? It just isn't. It can't be because it's a game. A game can't ever be the true definition of capitalism because we aren't LIVING it. We're not 'fighting to survive' as it were. We don't have to 'eat' in the game, or spend other expenses for 'upkeep'. There is no debt or loans we have to deal with. Hell, we don't even have to pay for our FREE inn. Retainers are taxed, but only to a very slight (almost laughable) amount. All we have to do to keep ourselves in check is get our gear repaired (next to free if you have a friend do it, but still affordable if you MUST do it at an NPC considering levequest rewards). If you want to be a GOOD player, you need to buy/make food, or get HQ items with multiple melds, but you can still live and thrive without it. -
06-03-2012, 12:32 AMwaldo
This thread makes my head hurt.
In the US people over the age of 60 are 20 times richer than those under the age 30... It's because that 60 year old dude has worked for 40-45 years and the 30 year old dude worked for 10.
So you've worked at XIV for 2 years, you have more Gil than the dude that worked at it for 2 months, no brainer right?
Gas, ectricity, a pound of ground beef, and an acre of dirt would cost them both the same, who gives a shit if the young dude has to work a little longer to afford it, the old dude already put his time in.
Why would this game be any different than that? -
06-03-2012, 12:56 AMElexiaStopped here because you forgot to mention:Quote:
Originally Posted by waldo
1. Gil was in surplus at the start of service, you could literally make millions on guildleves in a relatively short time compared to now, even spamming 99 leves you won't hit a million+ gil in as short of a period, simply because the way rewards work when you're over leveled and the fact low level leves don't produce that much gil as is.
2. Vendor prices were much much higher on certain items early on as well, thus people made twice as much gil selling to vendors then compared to now.
So while yes "working more/longer means you have more gil", you have to take into consideration that isn't why a lot of people actually had a lot of gil compared to someone new playing (in present time), especially if you're comparing to someone who started in 2010 when the game was horribly broken and horribly unoptimized in even its singular content system.
Nowadays you don't get near as much gil from leves like you used to, not even faction leves. Evaluations can come close (specially for achievement) however it's no where near as lucrative as 2010 just doing regular 8 leves every 36-48 hours ontop of vendoring everything you get for 1-5k a pop. -
06-03-2012, 01:01 AMAzurymberwhat i don't understand is why you are asking economic questions when you don't understand economics....Quote:
Originally Posted by Laraul
GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)
Protip... this game doesn't have gross investment, government spending, exports, or imports..........
further.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._%28nominal%29
OH LOOK... maybe people do look at economies based on fixed amounts......
Maybe if you bothered to learn economics before you tried to pretend that you understand it you would better understand whats going on in this topic.... -
06-03-2012, 01:11 AMAzurymberThis...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Plus this thread has absolutely nothing to do with new people making less than old people. It has to do with the amount of money in circulation on different servers and how that could effect SEs decision making
For example: say SE implemented a repeatable dynamis. They had to decide on what to charge for an hourglass. "look at all the players with capped gil, lets charge 5mil a pop" they might say. So on my server, 5mil a pop is nothing. But on a new server people might need to work for weeks or months to get 5mil. Hence people on the new server cry about how its unfair, and SE drops the price to 500k. But now people on the old server can do like 1000s of dynamis runs. People on the new server cry that people on the old server have 10 times more dynamis gear then them. SE abandons gil and makes everything a primal fight.
Thats just one -possible- example.
Yes, they can work around it if:
They treat different servers differently (resulting in cross-server rage at unfair treatment)
But then, they can't let anyone ever transfer to that server because if 10 people brought capped gil they would destroy the servers economy
They never use gil as anything more than trading currency
In this case they might as well just get rid of npcs that sell stuff. Make airships and stuff like that free. And never introduce elite dynamis-level gear that have purchasable items (as people with 999,999,999 will grab them all up like hotcakes and have a dynamis weapon a month after its released, again pissing ppl off on the new servers who will never see one for years)
And there are a lot of other very good ways they could work around it mentioned here.