It's clear SE doesn't care and Samurai will not be reverted in 6.2

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Except your entire argument has been "SAM feels more like MNK so it's good now." So I'll echo what others have said, stick to playing MNK and let the rest of us who actually know the class fight to have its identity returned. It's been painfully obvious in your replies to others and vice versa that you are not experienced with SAM; nor know or care about the issues it currently has. It's not arrogant to call out someone's ignorance; I'm sorry you see it as such.

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It's funny because there's clearly two groups of people: those who care about keeping job identity even if it means they don't like all jobs and those that are OK with homogenization of jobs since now they can "enjoy" all jobs.

I use enjoy in quotes because ultimately that leads to all jobs being essentially the same with different animations.

While I played since ARR launch, this expansion was the first time I took the time out to actually level all jobs. As I was doing so I'd often make comments like "wow this job feels a LOT like this other job...". Which was met with folks maining those jobs saying how it used to be different (in a good way).

For example: AST is just a better version of WHM. I used to main WHM but now I main AST.

Is this good design? NO. Just fix the aspects of WHM kit that feel bad or don't work well (ie: MAKE IT LIKE AST IS NOW) and make AST unique. PLD and GNB are super similar too, I main PLD and I "enjoyed" GNB because it felt familiar . . . not because it was its own unique thing. Is this good design? Again, no it's not.

The whole purpose of having different jobs should be to make unique enough play experiences that they stand out on their own and appeal to a certain type of player. Otherwise, why even bother having different jobs?

This "easy mode" they want to employee for making new jobs deflates any sense of excitement I have about future jobs. It makes the game feel creatively bankrupt and ultimately won't appear to those who have stuck with the game for so long.

It's extremely frustrating to watch happen and frankly *I don't care* if someone finds SAM entertaining *now* because it's a watered down version of what it was. If you can't find a SINGLE job you enjoy to make your way through the game then I'm sorry but this game isn't for you. If people want the bar of good job design to be "everyone has to enjoy all jobs because REASONS!" then enjoy your boring game but don't be surprised when it becomes like WoW, a soulless husk of its former self.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

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While it's probably more true than I know, I actually find PLD kind of boring personally. I haven't enjoyed it much at all despite it being my first tank that I leveled in SB. But then I did DRK and then WAR and then GNB was released and I loved it, especially since at its introduction the DRK I loved playing was reduced to worse WAR and everyone else said it was now better... I could not for the life of me see what they saw and I liked WAR. WAR is fun when you get to go ham. But like... why was DRK becoming like WAR better for DRK? idk.

Just wanted to say, I like GNB. It's my main tank job, and currently my main job until SAM gets fixed since SAM was reduced to boredom. I find the PLD rotation a little clunky is the main reason why I don't level it first out of the tanks.

But I wholeheartedly agree that jobs should feel and play much differently from each other. Maybe have similarities, but the main brunt of tools should be unique in both use and function.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

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I don't really think the different jobs are all that similar honestly despite some recognizable homogenization.

That said, the main reason they keep pushing things the way they are and removing specific debuffs and buffs and other things is because they are trying to ensure every single job is viable and avoid situations like in ARR where groups were outright banning jobs from even being in their groups. Like double BRD was super common in ARR.

Where Dev response? Where feedback response? Where my old SAM? Where is my fun? Where. I want old SAM back and so do 99% of every single SAM I've talked to. This is simply outrageous at this point. Not a single PEEP from the devs.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I don't really think the different jobs are all that similar honestly despite some recognizable homogenization.

That said, the main reason they keep pushing things the way they are and removing specific debuffs and buffs and other things is because they are trying to ensure every single job is viable and avoid situations like in ARR where groups were outright banning jobs from even being in their groups. Like double BRD was super common in ARR.

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Every. Single. Job has been viable in every piece of content since SB. This line of thinking from the Dev team is just backwards. People play the classes that they think are fun and they clear all the content with those classes. It's just cringe now.

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Originally Posted by Kira_Yaeger

Every. Single. Job has been viable in every piece of content since SB. This line of thinking from the Dev team is just backwards. People play the classes that they think are fun and they clear all the content with those classes. It's just cringe now.

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Indeed. At this point the jobs are being "fixed" for players who don't even like the jobs and for the devs so they have less work to do. I won't be surprised if all jobs end up becoming like healers one day. Just a cheap and easily recognizable copy and paste of one another. :/

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Originally Posted by Kira_Yaeger

Every. Single. Job has been viable in every piece of content since SB. This line of thinking from the Dev team is just backwards. People play the classes that they think are fun and they clear all the content with those classes. It's just cringe now.

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The point is they don't want a meta. They don't want to go back to what they did in ARR/HW because there was such extreme meta's that despite a job being "viable" it was straight up being ignored and blocked from groups. I agree they could have approached it differently, but this is why the design went into the direction it did.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The point is they don't want a meta. They don't want to go back to what they did in ARR/HW because there was such extreme meta's that despite a job being "viable" it was straight up being ignored and blocked from groups. I agree they could have approached it differently, but this is why the design went into the direction it did.

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They've already accomplished that. We haven't had a meta like that since they removed the slash/pierce debuffs... I haven't seen people getting excluded from a group for playing the wrong job in like 5 years. That doesn't rationalize their weird crusade on ironing out job differences anymore.

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

They've already accomplished that. We haven't had a meta like that since they removed the slash/pierce debuffs... I haven't seen people getting excluded from a group for playing the wrong job in like 5 years. That doesn't rationalize their weird crusade on ironing out job differences anymore.

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Not excluding but i have already saw people locking out sam from log parties on my dc. Yes you may argue it's monkaTOS but i care about this type of "content" as at max level with full bis there is literally nothing else to do (you dont need gear for alliance/dungeons and for ultimate you have to find right group first might aswell add that groups would rather search for nin/mnk than sam). 6.2 sam will be a dead class.

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

They've already accomplished that. We haven't had a meta like that since they removed the slash/pierce debuffs... I haven't seen people getting excluded from a group for playing the wrong job in like 5 years. That doesn't rationalize their weird crusade on ironing out job differences anymore.

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Its not the extreme it used to be, but there are still meta groups and I've been seeing a ton of PF's that lock out samurai's because of its lack of synergy with dancer now.

I'm not saying I agree with the current design approach, because I definitely don't. I think there are better ways to remain casual while appealing to mid and hardcore groups and keeping jobs unique while being viable, but the MMO community will be the MMO community and Yoshi understands it a little too well so we get the design decisions we've been seeing the last few years come to life.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm the minority in this, but I would love to see debuffs like slashing/piercing to come back. I understand the problems it caused, but I really liked them.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Also, I'm not sure if I'm the minority in this, but I would love to see debuffs like slashing/piercing to come back. I understand the problems it caused, but I really liked them.

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Perma-vulns should belong to tanks and need to not be codified into specific types.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Not excluding but i have already saw people locking out sam from log parties on my dc. Yes you may argue it's monkaTOS but i care about this type of "content" as at max level with full bis there is literally nothing else to do (you dont need gear for alliance/dungeons and for ultimate you have to find right group first might aswell add that groups would rather search for nin/mnk than sam). 6.2 sam will be a dead class.

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Good, they SHOULD lock out SAM. Maybe the devs will not only read this feedback (doubtful at this point) but they will see that what they did is extremely lame. You can't just kill synergy with every single class that gives some kind of crit buff and expect that to be okay. They did this just because some new gamers with less than 100 hours who only do msq and dungeons forget to hit kaiten and wonder why their midare does no damage. It's so cringe bro. Let people get good at the game! Stop dumbing it down! We aren't children.

I had a really weird dream about this last night, and I play Monk, and only Monk.

I had a dream that they brought back Keiten in a different/revamped form (however it's spelt) and it came with a new speed gauge that increased over-time as the SAM continued doing damage on a target, and that's what was used to circumvent the skill cooldowns.

It was such a bizarre dream xD

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Originally Posted by Kira_Yaeger

They did this just because some new gamers with less than 100 hours who only do msq and dungeons forget to hit kaiten and wonder why their midare does no damage. It's so cringe bro. Let people get good at the game! Stop dumbing it down! We aren't children.

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I know a lot of casual players who only do MSQ and casual content. Guess what, they aren't stupid little babies that you have to pamper. They know how to read tooltips and do a basic rotation 90% of the time, and when they don't they also know how to read a quick online guide. And even if they don't know how to play at all, you can clear MSQ in its entirety using only 123 Kasha Gekko Yukikaze Midare while disregarding half your kit and none will bat an eye.

I get a feel that these changes may be addressed to a group of midcore players who don't wanna take the time to learn their job to get into EX/Savage.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I had a really weird dream about this last night, and I play Monk, and only Monk.

I had a dream that they brought back Keiten in a different/revamped form (however it's spelt) and it came with a new speed gauge that increased over-time as the SAM continued doing damage on a target, and that's what was used to circumvent the skill cooldowns.

It was such a bizarre dream xD

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You might have had a vision of the future. xD

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

ALL jobs are for ALL players.

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I have to vehemently disagree with this statement. If this mindset were applied to ALL jobs, we'd have a giant pool of generic jobs with little identity. We already see this kind of mindset with healers and tanks and look how satisfied they are. The healers I know can easily swap between all the different healer jobs but not once have I ever heard any of them say that they love the state that healers are in. In fact, all I hear are complaints and lamentations. And the same can be said of the tanks I know, with the exception that the complaints are more toned down.

It's perfectly fine for jobs to be drastically different from one another and to draw in different types of crowds. It adds diversity and with that a different game play experience. As much as I dislike BLM, I wouldn't ask for it be dumbed down so it could be more accessible to the entire playerbase. BLM is not a job for ALL players and it shouldn't have to be. Nor should any other job for that matter.

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Originally Posted by TofuPenguin

I have to vehemently disagree with this statement. If this mindset were applied to ALL jobs, we'd have a giant pool of generic jobs with little identity. We already see this kind of mindset with healers and tanks and look how satisfied they are. The healers I know can easily swap between all the different healer jobs but not once have I ever heard any of them say that they love the state that healers are in. In fact, all I hear are complaints and lamentations. And the same can be said of the tanks I know, with the exception that the complaints are more toned down.

It's perfectly fine for jobs to be drastically different from one another and to draw in different types of crowds. It adds diversity and with that a different game play experience. As much as I dislike BLM, I wouldn't ask for it be dumbed down so it could be more accessible to the entire playerbase. BLM is not a job for ALL players and it shouldn't have to be. Nor should any other job for that matter.

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on the tank part (as an former main tank) this is true, most tanks feel the same, some will say that some tanks are much harder to play, but it isn't, maybe you got a few more OGCDs than the other, that's about it, also that the OT is basically an blue DPS that occasionally take an tank buster then shirks back to the MT.

on the BLM part, kinda odd how BLM retained it's role while the others are losing theirs slowly but surely right?
BLM has always been this static magic turret that doesn't move unless absolutely neccesary, the only thing is that it gained more mobility in the forms of triple cast and then 2 triple casts and ofcourse aether skating/between the lines if your leylines are up.
also it must be coincidence that BLM is Yoshi's main job ... surely that's just coincidence concidering Yoshi is also an orange parser ... could it be that he knows what BLM should be? but not what the others should be?! or that the job balancers in charge simply have no idea what they're doing?

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Originally Posted by darkdyllon

could it be that he knows what BLM should be? but not what the others should be?! or that the job balancers in charge simply have no idea what they're doing?

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Probably both. The other jobs are just constantly changed through trial and error until we get strict uniformed jobs that adhere only to the role they are assigned without any of the fun the job originally provided.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I had a really weird dream about this last night, and I play Monk, and only Monk.

I had a dream that they brought back Keiten in a different/revamped form (however it's spelt) and it came with a new speed gauge that increased over-time as the SAM continued doing damage on a target, and that's what was used to circumvent the skill cooldowns.

It was such a bizarre dream xD

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I had a weird daydream of Samurai's migrating temporarily to the CN servers to experience Kaiten.

Both FFXIV's Korean and Chinese servers are behind a few patches, so they still have old Samurai. However, KR requires RL ID verification to play where as CN does not. " I'm ready to go " I said in my vague daydream. " Ni Hao Ma " and call me " John Cena ", I want that Wu-kong CN exclusive Glamour while we are at it. " The things we do for Kaiten... " we said spamming our Kaiten over there.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

It's almost like the changes to SAM, are here to stay, perhaps it's time to jump on some other bandwagon job.

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main class WHM lvl 79, join date Aug 2021

if you spent half as much time in game as you did on the forums, you'd be max level by now

Yay! Another post from SE, this time they are changing up the housing ward distribution for FC/Personal houses:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ea1af7ef0cb27b

Yep . . . they aren't gonna change jack shit with SAM in 6.2

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

Yay! Another post from SE, this time they are changing up the housing ward distribution for FC/Personal houses:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ea1af7ef0cb27b

Yep . . . they aren't gonna change jack shit with SAM in 6.2

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Anything you base your opinion on? Cause I fail to see how an announcement of change in allocation that's going to happen in patch 6.18 has any bearing on patch 6.2.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Anything you base your opinion on? Cause I fail to see how an announcement of change in allocation that's going to happen in patch 6.18 has any bearing on patch 6.2.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Don't worry our concerns for the job changes we received will be addressed...

" Oh wait! " gotta acknowledge Housing Lottery F up and
" Oh wait! " gotta apologize for that and
" Oh wait! " PvP hacking issue and
" Oh wait! " another Mogstation update and surely after that then
" Oh wait! " Lewd Aventure plates! well gotta acknowledge that and then we finally
" Oh wait! " another RMT issue addressed! well Square idk as I read that I was in Ul'Dah just seeing another RMT shout and
" Oh wait! " BLM PVP overtuned? well gotta address that and

Well at this point I am trying to control my body fluids, because...

" Oh wait! " EMOTE Teacup Mogstation update wow well that really will
" Oh wait! " Addressing another RMT update, even though I still read RMT shouts in-game
" Oh wait! " ...Creating New Jobs is really difficult, whah!? gotta really announce that and then...
" Oh wait! " LYSE Attire and now we can really really " Oh wait! "

" Oh Wait! " an apology for the BLM changes? well then
" Oh Wait! " an immediate BLM adjustment? that fast? indie-company Square can do that?
" Oh Wait! " The Primals Live concert! and then...

Oh Wait! " The Live Letter "

Well slap me silly and call me a " 4 day Free trial ", anyone else passing the bong on the copium? Will they even address it? will they dodge the bullet? will I get another poster complaining about there being another Samurai thread or post? Will I finally stfu?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/96...ality=losslesshttps://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/96...ality=losslesshttps://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/96...ality=losslesshttps://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/96...ality=lossless
1 can only hopium so much...

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" Oh wait! " there's more waiting! Revisions to Housing! It's based off of Square being neglectful? waahhh !?

It's based on addressing or acknowledging Job changes. Of which they did with PvP BLM, overtuning BLM PvP, addressing BLM PvP and even Adjusting BLM PvP immediately. Can they do that for us? probably. But they aren't.

Good to know the entire list above including the housing revisions and BLM gets priority with free foot-rubs from forum simps for Square o/

Boy-oh-Boy I can't wait to wait for what I am supposed to wait for more on next wait-session o/

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Anything you base your opinion on? Cause I fail to see how an announcement of change in allocation that's going to happen in patch 6.18 has any bearing on patch 6.2.

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It's quite simple: why on earth did they need to announce this with just a week left till the live letter?

This and (as CelestiCer pointed out) all the other posts they have made about various issues pretty much solidifies that they have no intent into listening to our feedback.

It shows they clearly can communicate to players about changes coming for issues ahead of time should they deem them worthy. Clearly our plight is not worthy of their attention, hence my opinion that this just goes to further prove nothing will be addressed or touched upon in 6.2

Believe me when I say I want to be wrong about this.

They never addressed hagakure until right before the patch came out either...When it comes to pve they don't really comment on job changes and a lot of times won't even show them in the preliminary patch notes. This is just how they are with pve as they try to avoid large changes during content patches. Whether we hear anything or not wont be for another 2 months.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

They never addressed hagakure until right before the patch came out either...When it comes to pve they don't really comment on job changes and a lot of times won't even show them in the preliminary patch notes. This is just how they are with pve as they try to avoid large changes during content patches. Whether we hear anything or not wont be for another 2 months.

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I'll be happy to be wrong =)

I'm SO hoping they'll revert it and surprise us all. It feels no better now than it did - just flat and hollow.

Well I hope they do, because one of the biggest aspect of what made me start playing is how much they listen to their player base. But if things dont start to change by next expansion even a step, then i think that'll be the last straw.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

It's quite simple: why on earth did they need to announce this with just a week left till the live letter?

This and (as CelestiCer pointed out) all the other posts they have made about various issues pretty much solidifies that they have no intent into listening to our feedback.

It shows they clearly can communicate to players about changes coming for issues ahead of time should they deem them worthy. Clearly our plight is not worthy of their attention, hence my opinion that this just goes to further prove nothing will be addressed or touched upon in 6.2

Believe me when I say I want to be wrong about this.

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Live letter from what we can read will be focused on patch 6.2 preview and not on patch 6.18 where they will readjust the FC/Private allocation. Therefore sir your logic is flawed on this one.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Live letter from what we can read will be focused on patch 6.2 preview and not on patch 6.18 where they will readjust the FC/Private allocation. Therefore sir your logic is flawed on this one.

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You're correct. Rationally for us to expect a company like Square to care is flawed.

Then again, that's the good will that many of us adopted at the start of most of our adventures in FFXIV. This sale pitch sold to me at least of " a caring player base ", this " star sparkling community " that we're both part of. Supposedly due in part to game dev's who cared, listened to feedback and made sure our voices are heard.

Snap back to reality. And yes, naivety and flawed of people like me to have had that good will. They care about money apparently uphold Blackmage to lovechild standards over other jobs.

It has been roughly 3 months now. That's quite a few patch announcements. If you didn't ignore my list, you can see what they have addressed and announced which included even job buffs to others, i.e Blackmage. Not so much Samurai though cause they don't care. Harping on just 6.18 is a mistake they made anyways that should have never happened in the first place. Thus making our posts quite logical and on topic that " SquareEnix doesn't care ".

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Originally Posted by Flana

I can't believe people actually expected major class overhauls from a minor patch.

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People like complaining

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

People like complaining

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White knights be white knighting

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Originally Posted by Stasya

White knights be white knighting

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That is not white knighting in that scenario...

No, I don't like complaining, I just want my kaiten backs and my crits to not feel flaccid anymore.

I wish people hyperfixate less on Kaiten, a button that understandably does little other than "feel good," and focus more on real problems like "SE really screwed up the functionality of SAM AoEs in 6.1."

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Originally Posted by angelar_

I wish people hyperfixate less on Kaiten, a button that understandably does little other than "feel good," and focus more on real problems like "SE really screwed up the functionality SAM AoEs in 6.1."

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A lot of the issue is with the kaiten fixation is it's a piece of the machine that used to be samurai. Yanking it out, breaking the machine, then trying to fix it without the part that you just yanked out is the entire problem it has. Tenka goken being the equivalent of a wet fart is another funny one though, and a change I still don't understand either.

But yeah. Ill thought out and planned changes, haphazard implementation, nothing but lies and bullshit. Should've waited till they had something other than "we're removing an ability!"

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Originally Posted by angelar_

I wish people hyperfixate less on Kaiten, a button that understandably does little other than "feel good," and focus more on real problems like "SE really screwed up the functionality of SAM AoEs in 6.1."

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Part of the issue is that they shifted potencies around because of the kaiten removal, but those potencies didn't go into the Iaijutsus and instead went directly to our basic gcd combos. The whole point of the combos being weak is because it's there to build to a critical burst of some kind where we unleash a single strong hit. But none of them are particularly strong anymore. Midare hits for about 21 to 23k while other jobs still hit for above 50k with their signature moves, and while there's a valid argument that SAM uses its signature move more frequently than those other jobs, it's still a major tonal change from seeing 40-50k on enemies to 21k.

Feeling is all we really have to go by since if we were to only look at it objectively, then there's nothing so wrong with the job that it breaks.

It has problems in design now, yes. But it isn't unplayable. Simpler. Easier. Less things to think about or manage, regardless of how easy or difficult those aspects were prior to the patch, but easier and simpler than it was before, and people don't like that.

Kaiten being gone is not the only issue. It just compounded the issues made as they were all done to make up for its removal.

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Originally Posted by angelar_

I wish people hyperfixate less on Kaiten, a button that understandably does little other than "feel good," and focus more on real problems like "SE really screwed up the functionality of SAM AoEs in 6.1."

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The problem with Kaiten being removed has had a cascading effect on the entire design, resulting in a flat damage profile because the "brilliant" game designers that grace this game had to make up for the missing potency not just via guaranteed crit on the Iajutsu skills that "kaiten was just an obligatory button for xd" and moving them to combo actions, and guaranteed crit itself which makes samurai completely undesirable in any comp with crit buffs.

So yes, while stylistically Kaiten was just a button that looks and feels good to press, the asinine decision made by the definitely-not-incompetents that constitute the dev team has made the job just a badly designed liability in many team comps. That is to say, the ruining of SAM's functionality and identity in 6.1 came as a direct consequence of their decision to remove Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by angelar_

I wish people hyperfixate less on Kaiten, a button that understandably does little other than "feel good," and focus more on real problems like "SE really screwed up the functionality of SAM AoEs in 6.1."

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I don't really care about the cones being circles. It looks dumb, but whatever, its so far down the pole of concerns it doesn't even matter. Outside of dungeons pretty much no one even uses them.

Kaiten on the other hand directly worked with kenki. Losing kaiten wasn't just a "feel good" move, it also completely destroyed the point of kenki even existing. Don't be surprised if the next change is gyoten losing its damage if we don't get kaiten back.

The removal also meant they had to adjust potencies and they introduced the awful auto crit function to our big hitters so we lost an import skill and the dopamine of getting big crits. The entire point of SAM was "big D damage" and a core of that fun is gone now.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I don't really care about the cones being circles. It looks dumb, but whatever, its so far down the pole of concerns it doesn't even matter. Outside of dungeons pretty much no one even uses them.

Kaiten on the other hand directly worked with kenki. Losing kaiten wasn't just a "feel good" move, it also completely destroyed the point of kenki even existing. Don't be surprised if the next change is gyoten losing its damage if we don't get kaiten back.

The removal also meant they had to adjust potencies and they introduced the awful auto crit function to our big hitters so we lost an import skill and the dopamine of getting big crits. The entire point of SAM was "big D damage" and a core of that fun is gone now.

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I'd say the cone vs circle debate is still important in the case SAM. While you can maybe argue that WAR it isn't as important since its just going in line with the other tanks, which in itself is already a case of homogenization, the fact that Tenka Goken is a casted skill with no range means you're now encouraged to either play recklessly and get punished or just not use the skill at all, in which case, they've failed to make a core piece of the kit meaningful for 80% of the combat gameplay we do on a daily basis.

Coupled with the fact that the potency is complete garbage, I think they really meant for SAM to not want to use iaijutsu in aoe anymore despite the fact that we have an aoe version of a skill that's only available by using iaijutsu multiple times.

Kaiten is a big issue that caused a domino effect of poorly done alterations. So to say one change is not important is disingenuous to how dirty they've done us.