The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

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Originally Posted by Silvaire_Valtain

The Ancients could create Entelechies, like Meteion. So they could create an Entelechy to go fight Meteion.

Y'all need to think about things and not just accept what you are told.

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ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes. His research wasn't shared. He also was of the opinion that Meteion was something he wished to protect. He did actually live through the Final Days, you know, at no point offering to resolve the problem.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes.

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what about the dude who made the flower

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes. His research wasn't shared. He also was of the opinion that Meteion was something he wished to protect. He did actually live through the Final Days, you know, at no point offering to resolve the problem.

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Do you truly thing a civilization that thrives on research and debate wouldn’t have been able to create them after 12k years? Especially if Venat tells them what Meteion is? Please tell me you don’t truly believe this.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes. His research wasn't shared. He also was of the opinion that Meteion was something he wished to protect. He did actually live through the Final Days, you know, at no point offering to resolve the problem.

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He was admitted to the Convocation and became Fandaniel. What are you even talking about? The problem was they did not know the origin of the crisis (again, it was not shared with them by Venat), so they focused on solutions based on inferred patterns of weakness in the celestial currents. Also, the Elpis flowers were not his creation. They had the capability to create these things, and there is little reason to believe this research could not be picked up, if they knew this was the avenue of research they had to pursue. 12k+ years is an awful long time frame within which to come up with a solution.

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Originally Posted by AnEmissary

I'm okay with a broken time loop and WoL's ceasing to exist as long as it leads to a better end for the Ancients. I have minimal interest or care in the Sundered characters--the individual who said above that they found the Ancients cold and distant? That's exactly how I feel about the Scions, and have for years.

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Same here.

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Originally Posted by AnEmissary

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We will have to agree that while this story is not the story you wished to play through, it is the story that I played through and enjoyed.

It is not within either of our powers to change the way it has been written.

In the Multiverse, there is at least one Universe where your dream is true. There is another where the Ascians were successful with Bahamut and the world died.

This game is in neither of those Universes.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

what about the dude who made the flower

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No one knows who created the Elpis flower, nor has anyone found research about its creation.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

12k+ years is an awful long time frame within which to come up with a solution.

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You are assuming that the Ancients would have 12,000 years to come up with a solution. They had no clue as to the cause of the Final Days, and with things 'back to normal' under Zodiark, why would they pursue something they can't detect?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

We will have to agree that while this story is not the story you wished to play through, it is the story that I played through and enjoyed.

It is not within either of our powers to change the way it has been written.

In the Multiverse, there is at least one Universe where your dream is true. There is another where the Ascians were successful with Bahamut and the world died.

This game is in neither of those Universes.

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But it is within our power to speak about what we liked and did not--this is, after, a forum whose first purpose is feedback about the game.

As a result, your response comes off as both crass and pointless. If you're wanting to say something, then say it outright.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You are assuming that the Ancients would have 12,000 years to come up with a solution. They had no clue as to the cause of the Final Days, and with things 'back to normal' under Zodiark, why would they pursue something they can't detect?

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Yes, we're discussing the hypothetical scenario where Venat shared this information and the origin of the crisis had become known to them, as that is at a minimum how long Zodiark's shield persisted. You can claim that she had "reasons" not to due to the time loop or whatever (vague, not very clear even based on the writers' answers in the Q&A), but that's separate to the belief that even given that information, they could not have done so, which is what's being challenged here.

Daily reminder that the Ancients built Zodiark in a cave, with a box of scraps.

If the Ancients can get together and create a being capable of shielding an entire planet from Meteion's negative vibes for 12k years with no real prep time, then surely they can create something capable of dealing with her omnicidal temper tantrum if they weren't kept in the dark by our beloved genocide mommy.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Wait hold on, where are the ancients portrayed as strawman lunatics?

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Venat's cutscene. Given that was from her perspective, it goes to show what a low an opinion she had of her people. The irony being she's painted as impartial, but after the events of Elpis cause her to have a crisis of faith she becomes quite biased and is in absolutely in no position to be making life or death decisions especially on a global scale.

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Her back was always against the wall, knowledge of the coming demise does not stop it already.

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Venat is presented with the opportunity for a 'do over' when the WoL tells her that the future she ushered in resulted in 1) the omnicide of original Etheirys, 2) the obliteration of 8 shards including the 13th, 3) the near annihilation of the First and this isn't including the 8UC timeline. We're also there because we have no idea what to do. The Final Days have returned, they're exponentially worse than the first round because thanks to the sundering souls are now so susceptible to the Song of Oblivion it outright destroys them. We're at a dead end. The fact that this knowledge as presented is considered adequate let alone acceptable to determine that the WoL's future was the best possible outcome, especially when she literally never tried anything else, is absolutely nonsensical.

As for Hermes, Venat's reasons for not acting against him are inconsistent with all of the preceding narrative. I don't know what more there is to say about it.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

TBH, it's a morally grey story. It's important that we not all agree on it, and it's a sign it was done fairly well for all the flak it gets around here.

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There's nothing morally grey about it and since I keep seeing this reasoning I'm left to assume a decent amount of this community doesn't know what morally grey is. Just because it's a black action and white response doesn't make it grey. What the writers did in EW was undermine every character in the game at the expense of Venat to glorify something that at any other time they would have adamantly been against, in fact, I'd go as far to say that she represents the antithesis of the moral standards put forth by the Scions over the past decade. It was jarring. This isn't even addressing the outright breaking of certain characters, like Emet, who were so grossly manipulated to prop up Venat as a 'good guy' that there was just no taking it seriously anymore.

And here I thought we were discussing the philosophical dilemmas posed by the storyline, summarized by the OP as:

"Tldr; the Ancients are my true people, not the Sundered and Endwalker was one big nightmare for me that forced me to commit virtual genocide, be okay with it, offend my moral values, wank the other person responsible the whole ride, and generally commit numerous crimes on my person at the hands of Square Enix."

Complete with a number of "what ifs" that presumed (1) we are alive and go back in time and (2) Venat doesn't create a time paradox leading to us never having been alive in the first place.

With a side of Multiverse and betrayed Ancients who are somehow playing the game.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Daily reminder that the Ancients built Zodiark in a cave, with a box of scraps.

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I knew it. Tony Stark is a descendant of the ancients.

Daily reminder that the Ancients sacrificed 2/3 of their population to create and feed the meat shield Zodiark, and thought that by sacrificing more 'inconsequential' life they could get them back. What they based that assumption on, I have no idea. I doubt that Zodiark told them anything more than "feed me".

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Daily reminder that the Ancients sacrificed 2/3 of their population to create and feed the meat shield Zodiark, and thought that by sacrificing more 'inconsequential' life they could get them back. What they based that assumption on, I have no idea. I doubt that Zodiark told them anything more than "feed me".

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Oof. Is it that difficult to understand the idea of equivalent exchange? You trade aether for more aether. it's really not that hard to grasp and makes quite a bit of sense. Also, you remember that Zodiark was sentient due to Elidibus being his heart? He would have known what was possible and not possible and would have been able to communicate that, even, if they'd needed to ask.

The one silver lining in all this is that Hydaelyn’s dead. No more hear feel think annoying the crap out of me.

Anyway. I think it’s hilarious how the GCBTW takes it upon themselves to try and “correct” or lecture people on lore when they’re just venting their frustrations. Not sure how linking screenshot #6,082 is supposed to change a person’s feelings but you do you I guess.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Oof. Is it that difficult to understand the idea of equivalent exchange? You trade aether for more aether. it's really not that hard to grasp and makes quite a bit of sense. Also, you remember that Zodiark was sentient due to Elidibus being his heart? He would have known what was possible and not possible and would have been able to communicate that, even, if they'd needed to ask.

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On that note, a side tangent. I wonder if Elidibus (or should I say Zodiark) originally just told them what he could do when asked, and ultimately left the decision up to the majority on whether or not they wanted to bring back those lost. Considering how Zodiark just wanted "the Salvation of the star", it's very likely he was willing to go along with whatever the majority decided to do. Had they decided to just rejuvenate the world and left those who had sacrificed themselves to form him stay dead, he likely would have accepted it as their (and his) will. Considering how he never really directly involved himself with us until the balance was at stake, it's possible that he himself set the "rules" on the various Calamity creations and told the rest of them when the world was okay for another one. Us pushing things too much towards light (with the combination of Ardbert's crew) forced his hand because he knew just how much damage it could cause the Source if the 8th Calamity kicked off there (and we heard how bad the damages were).

The game's story gets praised and lifted up to the heavens with multiple people going on about how emotional it was and how it tore them up and they cried multiple times, but apparently OP being strongly attached to and torn up about their favorite fictional culture is worthy of mockery. gcbtw

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Oof. Is it that difficult to understand the idea of equivalent exchange? You trade aether for more aether. it's really not that hard to grasp and makes quite a bit of sense. Also, you remember that Zodiark was sentient due to Elidibus being his heart? He would have known what was possible and not possible and would have been able to communicate that, even, if they'd needed to ask.

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Zodiark's success was due more to the fact that the 2/3 of the population that sacrificed themselves were no longer using creation magicks. As for 'equivalent exchange' ... where in our long history of dealing with Primals have we ever encountered one that did not demand more Aether?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Daily reminder that the Ancients sacrificed 2/3 of their population to create and feed the meat shield Zodiark, and thought that by sacrificing more 'inconsequential' life they could get them back. What they based that assumption on, I have no idea. I doubt that Zodiark told them anything more than "feed me".

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I'd say daily, but more like hourly reminder that Zodiark as a blood god has been consistently debunked throughout ShB and EW. I realize it's somehow become widely accepted headcanon despite all evidence to the contrary, but I can't take anyone seriously who says it. Especially as one of those in this thread also threw out the "you didn't pay attention to the story" line. You're not only showing yourself ignorant of the lore, but that you're not worth engaging in any good faith.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Zodiark's success was due more to the fact that the 2/3 of the population that sacrificed themselves were no longer using creation magicks. As for 'equivalent exchange' ... where in our long history of dealing with Primals have we ever encountered one that did not demand more Aether?

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Remind me, when did Zodiark demand and require more aether in the 12k years since the Sundering? It's not coming to mind for some reason...

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Originally Posted by Avidria

They could have, but how long would it take? Would they have enough time? Would the one person to ever attempt it, let alone succeed (arguably considering the outcome), cooperate with them?

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Well, a sundered Zodiark bought 12,000 years before he was killed, so they'd have had a LONG time.

Who is this one person you mention? There'd be no reason they'd only send one. Also Dynamis wasn't unheard of, just understudied but again, they'd have plenty of time (and now incentive) to do so.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'd say daily, but more like hourly reminder that Zodiark as a blood god has been consistently debunked throughout ShB and EW. I realize it's somehow become widely accepted headcanon despite all evidence to the contrary, but I can't take anyone seriously who says it. Especially as one of those in this thread also threw out the "you didn't pay attention to the story" line. You're not only showing yourself ignorant of the lore, but that you're not worth engaging in any good faith.

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I have never used the term 'blood god', nor do I believe that Zodiark is anything more than a primal created by a people with much better focus on what they wanted, as opposed to what the populations of Eorzea can come up with. "Feed me" was a joke, given the Nature of Primals as explained over and over (and over) again.

That being said, you've brought up several things that I would greatly enjoy reading from your masterful perspective on the lore.

1) Who created Zodiark?
2) What were the conditions imposed on Zodiark at creation?
3) Who was the 14th member who refused to be involved in Zodiark's creation?
4) Was Elidibus the 'core' of the created Zodiark or a 'rider' (as in a vehicle)?
5) How did the Ancients know exactly how many souls were necessary for the sacrifice?
6) What reasoning did they have that this would work in the first place?
7) Regardless of Venat's reasoning, how were 12 Ancients able to create a second primal that was more powerful than one created using the aether of 1/2 of the population?

8) Why didn't either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus (with their restored memories) condemn us for the destruction of the Ancients?

Assume the story as written, not anyone's head canon or 'what abouts' in your explanations.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

7) Regardless of Venat's reasoning, how were 12 Ancients able to create a second primal that was more powerful than one created using the aether of 1/2 of the population?

8) Why didn't either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus (with their restored memories) condemn us for the destruction of the Ancients?

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You're so close to understanding the problem. So close yet so far.

I hit post limit for the day so I'll just add it in here.

7 and 8 are both explained by accepting that Venat was a Mary Sue. They used a fraction of the power to summon Hydaelyn, and yet she was strong enough to defeat Zodiark. Because reasons. Then when Emet comes back, one of the 3 who were tortured by her actions the MOST, after he regained his memories and was able to see what she actually did to his world... he's just like "aw man ya got me!" Just completely forgives her.

I'll tell you what the exact problem is.

It's bad writing.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

You're so close to understanding the problem. So close yet so far.

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State the exact problem if you know it. I've read any number of opinions in this thread, each driven by a different head canon. Your attempt at a response was as helpful as telling me to go watch "Moriarty the Patriot" again.

As I said earlier "Rinse, repeat. Again and again and again, through an unending set of parallel universes, including one where Meteion is never created, and the Ancients happily live to the conclusion of their civilization. Our story is not that story."

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Daily reminder that the Ancients sacrificed 2/3 of their population to create and feed the meat shield Zodiark, and thought that by sacrificing more 'inconsequential' life they could get them back. What they based that assumption on, I have no idea. I doubt that Zodiark told them anything more than "feed me".

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No matter how much life they planned to sacrifice to Zodiark it cannot compare to the uncountable billions killed by Venat through the sundering, shortening of lifespans, loss of ability to fight hunger, disease, etc. She created 14 hells where the people born into it did not even realized how damned they were.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

You're so close to understanding the problem. So close yet so far.

I hit post limit for the day so I'll just add it in here.

7 and 8 are both explained by accepting that Venat was a Mary Sue. They used a fraction of the power to summon Hydaelyn, and yet she was strong enough to defeat Zodiark. Because reasons. Then when Emet comes back, one of the 3 who were tortured by her actions the MOST, after he regained his memories and was able to see what she actually did to his world... he's just like "aw man ya got me!" Just completely forgives her.

I'll tell you what the exact problem is.

It's bad writing.

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I think you are misremembering something. Venat, even as a primal, WAS weaker than Zodiark. Never is it implied that she was stronger than him, ever, She, however, did defeat him because she became a primal specifically designed to do so. Not a primal that was stronger than Zodiark, but a primal designed to sunder him. She defeated Zodiark not because she was stronger than him, but because she essentially cheated in what was assumed a straight fight. It's like if a bear was fighting a human. The bear would totally win that fight. The bear is stronger than the human. But the human brought bear stopping traps and tools. The human didn't win because they are stronger than a bear. The human won by specifically debilitating the bear.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

No one knows who created the Elpis flower, nor has anyone found research about its creation.

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No proof in game, but I had a thought it may have been a former version of Hermes.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

On that note, a side tangent. I wonder if Elidibus (or should I say Zodiark) originally just told them what he could do when asked, and ultimately left the decision up to the majority on whether or not they wanted to bring back those lost. Considering how Zodiark just wanted "the Salvation of the star", it's very likely he was willing to go along with whatever the majority decided to do. Had they decided to just rejuvenate the world and left those who had sacrificed themselves to form him stay dead, he likely would have accepted it as their (and his) will. Considering how he never really directly involved himself with us until the balance was at stake, it's possible that he himself set the "rules" on the various Calamity creations and told the rest of them when the world was okay for another one. Us pushing things too much towards light (with the combination of Ardbert's crew) forced his hand because he knew just how much damage it could cause the Source if the 8th Calamity kicked off there (and we heard how bad the damages were).

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They kind of answered that in the stories

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../sidestory_07/

"This was soon after Zodiark became the will of the star, and our Final Days were averted. The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end.

At once, we saw it, shimmering. It poured out of Zodiark's breast, and resolved into the shape of a man. As he looked us over─mouths agape, no doubt─he gave what passed for an earnest smile.


"Fear...not... You will make...the right choice. And I will see it through."

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

No one knows who created the Elpis flower, nor has anyone found research about its creation.

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untrue, they know it was an ancient known for making other kinds of flowers, and it would have to filed with the bureau of the architect. no-one is specific in telling us because we're a nosy little gremlin running around doing blue quests.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

7) Regardless of Venat's reasoning, how were 12 Ancients able to create a second primal that was more powerful than one created using the aether of 1/2 of the population?

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Zodiark was not build to fight. He was created to restore the world as it was. Hydaelyn otoh got this one specific ability to sunder the reality. Because we told her, that she will do it in the future. And we have another causal loop here ...

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

8) Why didn't either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus (with their restored memories) condemn us for the destruction of the Ancients?

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Maybe there is still hope for the ancients. :)


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

Well, a sundered Zodiark bought 12,000 years before he was killed, so they'd have had a LONG time.

Who is this one person you mention? There'd be no reason they'd only send one. Also Dynamis wasn't unheard of, just understudied but again, they'd have plenty of time (and now incentive) to do so.

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The one person is Hermes who is the only person to have actually made an entelechy and who did not actually submit her "design" for the records the other ancients used to recreate creations. And Zodiark was only created after an untold number of their people had already died, one of the 14 had apparently up and vanished, and another full half of whoever was left was dead. So they'd need to convince whoever was still alive and still capable of figuring out another solution to do so and also to NOT push for their plan to sacrifice all the new life for the sake of effectively resurrecting everyone who sacrificed themselves to Zodiark.

So they'd need to create entelechy(s) to counter Meteion, find her, defeat her, and THEN sort out their internal conflict on whether to kill a bunch of unspecified life forms for the sake of reviving the dead.

I mean they could've. But they also could've failed anyway. So. This is all pure speculation.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

"Feed me" was a joke, given the Nature of Primals as explained over and over (and over) again.

7) Regardless of Venat's reasoning, how were 12 Ancients able to create a second primal that was more powerful than one created using the aether of 1/2 of the population?

8) Why didn't either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus (with their restored memories) condemn us for the destruction of the Ancients?

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"Feed me" doesn't really work as a joke since the game explained the differences already. Zodiark and Hydaelyn are primals, yes, but they lack many of the imperfections of their modern knockoffs. They in fact do not drain aether from the land. Zodiark has an unfathomable amount of aether due to all the souls within him, while Hydaelyn drained every soul used to create her to the point of erasure. Barring the sacrifices needed for Zodiark's restoring of the planet and subsequent reseeding of life, the closest either of them has come to taking in outside power was Hydaelyn's use of Minfilia to absorb a bunch of excess light-aspected aether on the First.

Zodiark was, by Hydaelyn's own admission, infinitely more powerful than her even after losing his heart. Her ability to sunder the world relates more to her nature as a primal than it does a contest of raw power.

Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus accepted that their world will never be restored. Additionally, Emet-Selch never really saw the sundered races as worthless or not truly alive; that was copium. Bearing these two things in mind, why should they? What's done is done. Instead, they chose to focus on consoling their new-old friend, who was rather upset when they chose to return to the lifestream.

The argument that the Ancients deserved better is predicated on the assumption that the Ancients would have been better. In my opinion, they would not.

Let's assume the Final Days happened as hey did, they sacrificed half their population to summon Zodiark, then half again to seed new life. There was no intervention by Venat, their civilization continues. But there is a problem. The majority want to sacrifice this new life to bring back all who were lost, but a vocal minority believe this new life should be allowed to grow. Here we have the seeds on dissent and conflict.

The Ancients civilization only worked because it was a "one-mind" civilization. Everyone worked toward more or less the same goal: perfection. But the Final Days and Zodiark's creation has changed their reality. A line has been crossed. What is perfection? What is the goal now? Do we continue as we did or do we change? They are no longer "one-mind."

Conflict would be inevitable, on a scale that would make the Allagan conquests look like a slap fight. If gods can be made manifest, who's to say one side wouldn't try doing it again, only for the other to respond in kind? The Dead Ends is actually a perfect metaphor for the outcome of such a conflict: destruction of the planet, destruction of all civilization, or complete stagnation. This is the cycle they were locked into. Sacrifice, disagreement, conflict.

All this to not even mention that the Final Days is still very much a looming threat, that any weakening of Zodiark's power due to any such conflict would start the whole thing over again.

Venat saw there was no going back. So she played the ultimate gamble: clear the board, and reset the pieces. And it was a hell of a gamble, but she did everything in her power to stack the odds in our favor. It payed off because we did not have any existing bias. Yes, compared to the old world, the sundered worlds are no paradise. But they had what the Ancients lacked, the drive to do better, to be better. To fight and push and rage against the injustice of life. And that is exactly what it took the beat the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

snip.

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They did have the drive to do better though, that’s literally their whole thing. You’re acting as if they’re nothing but a hive mind when there’s nothing at all that suggests that. We’re literally shown how much of a debate oriented society they are. That’s exactly what Elidibus left Zodiark to do, mediate both sides of the conflict. Presumably he had no chance to as Venat decided to take agency over the lives of millions if not billions without their consent and shatter them. Imo a better gamble would’ve been….idk….trusting in her own people for once, telling them the truth, and working with them to find a better way. The sundered world had what….6 people that were the only reason they made it out? Every other sundered was either giving in to despair or fighting each other lol.Not to mention how much outside help they needed, i’m not exactly sure the drive to do better was entirely….fair. Also, what injustice of life are you talking about exactly?

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

The argument that the Ancients deserved better is predicated on the assumption that the Ancients would have been better. In my opinion, they would not.

Let's assume the Final Days happened as hey did, they sacrificed half their population to summon Zodiark, then half again to seed new life. There was no intervention by Venat, their civilization continues. But there is a problem. The majority want to sacrifice this new life to bring back all who were lost, but a vocal minority believe this new life should be allowed to grow. Here we have the seeds on dissent and conflict.

The Ancients civilization only worked because it was a "one-mind" civilization. Everyone worked toward more or less the same goal: perfection. But the Final Days and Zodiark's creation has changed their reality. A line has been crossed. What is perfection? What is the goal now? Do we continue as we did or do we change? They are no longer "one-mind."

Conflict would be inevitable, on a scale that would make the Allagan conquests look like a slap fight. If gods can be made manifest, who's to say one side wouldn't try doing it again, only for the other to respond in kind? The Dead Ends is actually a perfect metaphor for the outcome of such a conflict: destruction of the planet, destruction of all civilization, or complete stagnation. This is the cycle they were locked into. Sacrifice, disagreement, conflict.

All this to not even mention that the Final Days is still very much a looming threat, that any weakening of Zodiark's power due to any such conflict would start the whole thing over again.

Venat saw there was no going back. So she played the ultimate gamble: clear the board, and reset the pieces. And it was a hell of a gamble, but she did everything in her power to stack the odds in our favor. It payed off because we did not have any existing bias. Yes, compared to the old world, the sundered worlds are no paradise. But they had what the Ancients lacked, the drive to do better, to be better. To fight and push and rage against the injustice of life. And that is exactly what it took the beat the Final Days.

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The Unsundered world was objectively better than the Sundered world. People didn't starve, weren't homeless, they debated instead of fought wars when they disagreed with each other. It was simply an objectively better world in every single aspect. Venat may have made a calculated gamble, but boy is she bad at math.

Be better! Fight against all odds! Forge Ahead ™! Stand against fate! Uh be better but not TOO good because then there won't be anything to work towards since you did it all and then you'll want to die. So...strive to become...mediocre! Gotta have balance amirite. Uh and stand against fate but...SOMETIMES you have to accept your fate - accept that you're suffering and maybe even EMBRACE it so that you can become STRONGER. So that you can...be better! But not TOO GOOD because then there won't be anything to work tow-well you get what I mean.

You guys don't understand that Venat really did mankind a favor. You go Venat! Clip those wings gurl! Only then could they learn what struggle truly means! What life truly means which is to struggle, fight, crawl your way through all the hardships until you finally...become better and better and bet-but not TOO good! So struggle, crawl, fight, live die and know...that sometimes when you're not a protagonist and you've stood against as much fate as you could, sometimes you gotta just let nature take it's course and surrender and accept that it just be like that sometimes. But at least you went out smiling...

https://c.tenor.com/eyPJrvR7hmIAAAAC/ffxiv-louisoix.gif

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

forge ahead brudda :DDDDD

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Yeah, pretty much sums up the weird way that Endwalker ties itself in knots with its own message. Death is inevitable and we must find our own meaning and take joy in the little things, so why exactly is the narrative judging the Ancients as being doomed and bad and unworthy for the crime of... ending, after doing everything they could to preserve themselves (without knowledge of what was actually happening)? Ditto with the various alien races we are introduced to.

Feels like overcompensation, like people are working overtime to "justify" the existence of the sundered who need no justification to live -- who are all vulnerable to any of the three "ends" in the Dead Ends (the name in itself feels kind of judgy). In ShB the Final Days just seemed like a senseless tragedy and unknown phenomenom. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Why take a dump on that?

I get what you mean. It's sad that the Ancients were wiped out by events they didn't even see were going to happen and couldn't understand why. We are the survivors, we are what's left of the Ancients with our souls sundered and our aether weakened that we cannot use creation magicks in the same way they did. The likes of Venat and Elidibus are lost to us forever. Emet-Selch could come back reborn as one of us if he wanted since his soul wasn't obliterated like the other Ascians we've encountered, but he explicitly expressed his desires not to.

Venat made the decision not to tell her people about Meteion because if they had succeeded in changing the past it would've created a paradox where we never would've existed to warn her about the Final Days in the first place. Elidibus warned us for that very reason before he gave up his last remnants of his soul to open a gate to the past that we were not to try to alter the past nor prevent the Final Days from happening. In fact just before his soul was obliterated he recalled us visiting him in the past stating that it was a warming memory that he had forgotten, so even before we learned we could go there a version of ourselves had already been into the past and set in motion the cycle of events that would lead to us needing to go back to the world unsundered. Also Venat recognised that up until the Final Days they had been living in a utopia that risked becoming stagnated and that true peace shouldn't just be a given but something that's earned through overcoming hardships.

As for Hermes he believed all life had the rights to live even if it meant destroying everything else and developed an emotional attachment to everything. He could not accept the standard ways of his people who would create and unmake creations without remorse or regrets and once they believed their work was done would give up their own lives for someone else to fill in their place. The other Ancients were far too occupied with duty and acceptance of their ways to notice how unstable he was becoming and put their bets on him becoming the next Fandaniel would occupy him enough to forget his troubles. He secretly created Meteion to question what does it mean to live on other worlds but when his answer was that there was no other significant reason for living it pushed him over the edge and he sided with Meteion's judgement that to exist was to suffer. Even though he was reborn as a sundered Ascian the question still haunted him and with each rebirth he felt even less about life and longed for the cycle of death and rebirth to come to an end.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

I get what you mean. It's sad that the Ancients were wiped out by events they didn't even see were going to happen and couldn't understand why. We are the survivors, we are what's left of the Ancients with our souls sundered and our aether weakened that we cannot use creation magicks in the same way they did. The likes of Venat and Elidibus are lost to us forever. Emet-Selch could come back reborn as one of us if he wanted since his soul wasn't obliterated, but he explicitly expressed his desires not to.

Venat made the decision not to tell her people about Meteion because if they had succeeded in changing the past it would've created a paradox where we never would've existed to warn her about the Final Days in the first place. Elidibus warned us for that very reason before he gave up his last remnants of his soul to open a gate to the past that we were not to try to alter the past nor prevent the Final Days from happening. In fact just before his soul was obliterated he recalled us visiting him in the past stating that it was a warming memory that he had forgotten, so even before we existed a version of ourselves had already been into the past and intervened. As of yet we've still not met with Elidibus of the past...or have we?

As for Hermes he believed all life had the rights to live even if it meant destroying everything else and developed an emotional attachment to everything. He could not accept the standard ways of his people who would create and unmake creations without remorse or regrets and once they believed their work was done would give up their own lives for someone else to fill in their place. The other Ancients were far too occupied with duty and acceptance of their ways to notice how unstable he was becoming and put their bets on him becoming the next Fandaniel would occupy him enough to forget his troubles. He secretly created Meteion to question what does it mean to live on other worlds but when his answer was that there was no other significant reason for living it pushed him over the edge and he sided with Meteion's judgement that to exist was to suffer. Even though he was reborn as a sundered Ascian the question still haunted him and with each rebirth he felt even less about life and longed for the cycle of death and rebirth to come to an end.

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If the WoL would have spread the tale and prevented the final days would it have created a paradox? Yes. But if it meant saving the Ancients and preventing the Final Days, even if meant that either he was erased from existence or could not go back to his own reality should he do so, he would do it in a heartbeat. He is selfless, his primary goal would be to prevent the tragedy that befell the race that were his first self's friends, lover, and brothers. He would also know that if the Scions had the information he did they would *gladly* sacrifice their existence to prevent it.