Machinist class is dead

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I can only say that I don't think it is that easy.

Not to mention what even percentile do we focus on here? Median MCH might had already overtaken median BRD and DNC.

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I've been raiding as a tank this tier and for extremes.
With no effort, 95%+ uptime was done when playing extremely safe and respecting every mechanic the best I could.
I wasn't even caring about uptime and this was my first tier as a tank (thought I previously played SAM).
I don't "think" it's easy, I am "sure" it's easy, by experience.

As for today's percentile, due to the patch they got reset and numbers will fluctuate, you will see numbers stabilizing themselves.
You also shouldn't look at median, a lot of them they include KO and damage down debuff.
It's like looking at the average speed of runners who fell during a race.

MCH floor is low, but the ceiling is also low. I'd love for MCH ceiling to be higher.

I wonder how the class would play if...

Wildfire was bumped up by a lot so it's very important to place it within buffs and not to lose it. Queen finishers were bumped up by a lot so it matters more when they happen. Regular damage was bumped down, so MCH becomes less about damage consistency and more playful with timing and buffs.

Also wonder what would happen if AA and Chainsaw CD was made smaller, so placing heatblasts becomes harder and drifting those skills becomes more punishing.

I'd love for MCH to find a higher ceiling somehow.

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Originally Posted by gamerseb

MCH floor is low, but the ceiling is also low. I'd love for MCH ceiling to be higher.

I wonder how the class would play if...

Wildfire was bumped up by a lot so it's very important to place it within buffs and not to lose it. Queen finishers were bumped up by a lot so it matters more when they happen. Regular damage was bumped down, so MCH becomes less about damage consistency and more playful with timing and buffs.

Also wonder what would happen if AA and Chainsaw CD was made smaller, so placing heatblasts becomes harder and drifting those skills becomes more punishing.

I'd love for MCH to find a higher ceiling somehow.

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With out a rework, Yoshi P has already said that MCH is a completed class. Hince why all we got in this expansion was a upgarded aoe, another Queen finisher, and another drill which are all very uninspired skills. I know it's counter intuitive, but chainsaw should have been a gap closer. They gave SMN one and it works just fine.

Bumping to keep these threads alive. We need change and it ain't happening without shoving the class in their faces. Keep the ideas and conversation coming, y'all.

Bumping cause too many SAM threads

Your not a fan of MCH sounds like your a fan of “damage output” in that regard just do RPR. All throughout SB, MCH was basically shunned for not being as good as BRD or as damage savy as SAM but so long as I cleared stuff I simply didn’t care about some invisible number

I agree MCH is a dead job as it hit a creative wall, but MCH simple would be cured just because it does more damage

I believe the closest you can get to "objective" balancing is based on three factors.

1. Ease of Use - how easy it is to use the class, how punishing failures to execute rotation are, how much "effort" is required to hit maximum dps.
2. Utility - what does it bring the rest of the party? How much rdps/mitigation/heal does it bring?
3. Mobility - How much can they ignore mechanics and/or move with a fight and how punished are they for doing so. Essentially how difficult is it for them to "Adjust" to mechanics.

I believe the key factor in MCH's balance is that in 3, mobility, they can pretty much ignore any/all mechanics for ease of movement and are not punished at all for placement. As someone who loves MCH dearly it's the "Easiest" class in the game imo to play. I don't have to worry about up time, I don't have to worry about movement, I don't have to worry about buffs, and aside from a bit of burst damage I can pretty much stay in the top 1-3 in most content just loosely following the opener.

The issue here is how do they balance this ease of use to make it not punish other players, and it's an issue I believe they've had a while (see my previous main, NIN).

If you buff MCH to be able to do like high end melee/SAM/BLM numbers of damage you create a class that can easily hit like a truck with no punishment and literally no tactical thinking involved. No optimization of uptime and aside from maybe server ping no real drawbacks.

If you give them more utility it starts to copy BRD and DNC (See BRD in SHB having this same problem because DNC took most its utility/role in the group).

How fair would it be to have them do as much damage as classes that have to move around AOEs, utilize uptime, plan out their rotations/burst, etc. I've seen on the forums before that people believe mobility shouldn't affect dps balancing but I argue that it is probably the biggest reason why MCH is stuck in the weird limbo it's in currently. Perhaps the cast time while moving introduced in PVP could introduce a new skill/capstone next expac that allows for movement (slowed) but dps to provide more "skill ceiling" to the class or they could give it another personal dps buff it has to set up.

As someone who mains NIN and watched RPR come in and do way more damage, with my utility on a single button press, and just top dps for a while, I feel the pain of watching a class you like kinda become negligible, but I also believe the dps checks in this game aren't bad enough to warrant "needing" a specific comp if you don't eat aoes.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

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No one is asking for MCH to do RPR or SAM DPS, we're asking to be the top DPS out of our specific role, as we're the selfish DPS class for the Phys Ranged role.

We shouldn't be putting up numbers like SAM/RPR/BLM but we *should* have rDPS equal to or greater than BRD/DNC rDPS when all is said and done. At the moment, if you're min-maxing your group comp, you're hurting your group by not filling your Phys Ranged with BRD or DNC to bring a higher rDPS.

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Originally Posted by Remarus

No one is asking for MCH to do RPR or SAM DPS, we're asking to be the top DPS out of our specific role, as we're the selfish DPS class for the Phys Ranged role.

We shouldn't be putting up numbers like SAM/RPR/BLM but we *should* have rDPS equal to or greater than BRD/DNC rDPS when all is said and done. At the moment, if you're min-maxing your group comp, you're hurting your group by not filling your Phys Ranged with BRD or DNC to bring a higher rDPS.

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That makes no sense, why should a high personal DPS class do more rDPS than classes designed to provide rDPS. You already do way more DPS than Bard and Dancer. And if you bothered to check rankings you'd see MCH is doing more rDPS than Bard and Dancer in most content, Alliance raids, Normal Raids, Dungeons, Extremes and even Savage until you hit the high percentile players where it switches to Bard and then DNC at 90%+. But you should do more RDPS too? Why bring a class that does 30% less actual dmg and whos buffs require everyone to play optimally to make use of them when the culmination of all those buffs dont even compare with a DPS class who can do that much themselves? Buff classes NEED high personal DPS classes to achieve high RDPS. If you can just stack personal DPS classes to achieve higher dps why would you ever want to deal with buffs classes? But all that is moot anyway cause MCH is already the top range DPS if anyone bothered to do any research before posting here you'd see that. Its only among the top 10% players in savage content where MCH falls behind the buff classes and you want to take that away too?

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Originally Posted by Remarus

No one is asking for MCH to do RPR or SAM DPS, we're asking to be the top DPS out of our specific role, as we're the selfish DPS class for the Phys Ranged role.

We shouldn't be putting up numbers like SAM/RPR/BLM but we *should* have rDPS equal to or greater than BRD/DNC rDPS when all is said and done. At the moment, if you're min-maxing your group comp, you're hurting your group by not filling your Phys Ranged with BRD or DNC to bring a higher rDPS.

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I disagree with that.

A bard/dancer can have a lower rDPS than a MCH simply because the group isn't packing a punch. They simply have enormous RDPS because Bard buff 100% of the time through the fight for the whole group, while Dancer buff him and his partner. Those class always buff at least someone else and Depend on them to make their rDPS up. Therefore, if a dancer take a bard as a Partner, he will have significantly lower rDPS against a combinaison with a Ninja or Monk for exemple. BUT the DPS itself from a Bard and Dancer are lower than that of MCH, those two classes don't have a DH CRIT on a 580 Potency attack that can be unleashed every 55 sec. While Dancer got a 600 Potency DH Crit every 120 sec which can't even be compared, the Bard can only unleash a 600 Potency with nothing guarenteed after building his gauge at 80+. Their is other thing to compare that, like the robot of the Machinist who makes a total of 2780 Potency if you launch it at 100% and match perfectly into the burst phase (The robot attack for like 18-20 sec, half of this is done by the two last attack)

Even if I agree that MCH is still lacking in term of DPS, I can understand why it will never go far beyond Bard and Dancer too, It's not a hard job to play with, unlike the Monk who's really hard to master.


Therefore, Playing Bard/Dancer is a gamble when you play with people you don't know. If they are not doing good, you will not either. That problem isn't met with MCH.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

That makes no sense, why should a high personal DPS class do more rDPS than classes designed to provide rDPS. You already do way more DPS than Bard and Dancer.

And if you bothered to check rankings you'd see MCH is doing more rDPS than Bard and Dancer in most content, Alliance raids, Normal Raids, Dungeons, Extremes and even Savage until you hit the high percentile players where it switches to Bard and then DNC at 90%+.?

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Buffs stacks. Every job is now on 120s burst window and you want the most you can have.
Dancer also have healing and shields that can make the difference. MCH only got DPS.
Then, remember that each buff/nerf/gear progression also impact the rDPS jobs.

Finally, let me remind you that BLM is a pure DPS, RDM and SMN are support jobs but no one is complaining that the pure rDPS job is doing that much damage compared to SMN&RDM.

Using 24 man raid, dungeons and normal raid as a metric... People go in for fun, not for performances. You'll never get in an optimized party you could have no casters or people not playing very well. Unless you match with 7 other raiders, you'll never get a good party for your buffs. It's also true for normal raids. Dungeons are 4 man content, less people using your buffs means less rDPS.
You can't look at lower percentile, under 75 percentile contains people getting K.O. or not fully geared. 90+ mostly contains people that know their jobs, are geared and don't get KO.

TL;DR:
MCH brings only damage to the group.
DNC brings damage and shield/healing.
MCH doesn't have anything to compete with that support, it should get something to compete.

On top of that, it's competing for the ranged role. There is no problem having 2 casters or 2 melees, but having 2 ranged is very bad.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Even if I agree that MCH is still lacking in term of DPS, I can understand why it will never go far beyond Bard and Dancer too, It's not a hard job to play with, unlike the Monk who's really hard to master.

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MNK has been dumbed down since 6.0. I'll also let you discover Dragon Kick rotation.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Dancer also have healing and shields that can make the difference. MCH only got DPS.
Then, remember that each buff/nerf/gear progression also impact the rDPS jobs.

Finally, let me remind you that BLM is a pure DPS, RDM and SMN are support jobs but no one is complaining that the pure rDPS job is doing that much damage compared to SMN&RDM.

Using 24 man raid, dungeons and normal raid as a metric... People go in for fun, not for performances..........

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Yes Buffs and burst windows are 120 sec cycles and having more is good, but if you only bring buff classes and no high personal DPS classes the benefit of those buffs are lessened. DMG Buffs are more effective on BLM, SAM, than they would be on a RDM or a DNC. So you don't want to ignore the high personal DPS classes.

BLM, RDM, and SMN are entirely different because the classes don't have the same mobility limitations. SMN is practically no different than physRanged for mobility, RDM only has to cast every other spell, BLM has far more restrictive movement than either those two classes while hard casting. Turn MCH into a turret class that has to hunker down to DPS and you may have an argument there.

You also omitted MCH has the same shield BRD and DNC.

Extremes, Dungeons, Normal Raids and Alliance raids are part of the game at level 90 and impact players experiences. The majority of players actually. 10% of the playerbase does savage content, and of that you want to ignore 99% of savage experiences to tune everything for the top 1%? That seems like a horrible business model. This isnt a competitive E-sport game. Im sure the devs want to make the experience enjoyable for as many players at as many levels as they can. Using savage content among top players is important but its not the only metric that matters.

And by that same logic you want us to ignore all progression runs, wipes, and runs where people get KO'd or are not fully geared too? Well then all that "utility" you claim DNC has doesn't matter either. Curing waltz 300 potency heal every 1 min is not needed if everyone is executing mechanics perfectly. so DNC brings nothing. RDM and SMN rez isnt needed outside of prog runs either so they shouldn't be taxed for it too.

So which is it? Does progression or un-optimal runs matter in which utility should be taken into account or do they not matter in which case utility has no baring on DPS during optimal play. Because there is no content in the game where Curing Waltz is necessary to complete it.

MCH has issues, but the entire range role has issues and i'd rather the Devs focus on making our role valuable than flipping between which of the 3 phys ranged roles are people reluctantly forced to bring with. Cause most the changes requested here aren't about finding a spot for MCH its about making MCH the only phys ranged worth playing.

You can't just boost a class without taking into account the "end-tier" player, as well as casual. That's just fact.

Imagine a patch note where a class (no matter which one) take a 5% overall DPS increase. Now let's say that class was at 10.000 dps (with everything fully optimal, stuff and rotation) before the patch.

By taking that into account, you have boosted the player who use this classe extremely well by 500 dps. But what about those who don't master the class this well, or don't have optimal equipment ? Of course they will gain 5% too, but 5% of a lesser value, in which case the gap between good and bad player will be growing wider.

In order to make adjustement, it's necessary to take into account every kind of player, otherwise it can make absurd tweek on classe that will lead to a class being unplayed, or Overly played because it's completely broken.

As for the utility of classes, I have a different point of view, especially about RDM/SMN. They have a Raise spell, that's a huge support to begin with, as it allow your healer to keep their mana up in case they have to heal through a raid wide damage or any other mecanics encountered by the team. Maybe you do lesser damage overall, but you have some "insurance" that allow you to raise one of your party member almost for free. A raise on a healer at a critical team, so he can LB3 heal right after to make everyone on their feet, this can be a complete game changer, where a BLM wouldn't be able to do that and just witness his death, forcing him to redo the boss till the beginning. I've seen countless raid (Either Extreme or Savage) that were saved by those raise.

So for the question : Does utility mean less DPS ?

Answer : Yes. Otherwise, All classes of the game will have the exact same potency on each spell and all the DPS will look the same. This can be true for Healer and Tanks as well.

Utility does have it's role in affecting DPS on classes, but I think that the complexity of a classes should have a role in that Too. MCH is extremely easy to play, You have plenty of offensive stuff and mobility that allow you to move freely wherever you want. You even have 100% Uptime (In Theory) because you can attack up to 25 Yalms... Many thing must be take into account before buffing or nerfing a classe

Which is why we are arguing for competitiveness within our role, not in the entire spectrum of classes. Again, no one is arguing that MCH should be doing SAM or BLM levels of damage. That would be silly. One's in melee (despite the fact that every static uses melee uptime strats and, as someone who has tanked this tier, realizes how absolutely braindead uptime is for melee right now), and the other has insane cast times and turret style gameplay. But if BRD and DNC (both of whom are both more mobile with DNC's dashes and BRDs large disengage, and have 100% potential uptime themselves) are bringing utility to the raid, and pulling higher rDPS, then what's the point of the 'selfish' phys ranged class? Their only utility is their DPS, if it's poor at the top end, then it's going to be left out of groups. We already saw plenty of "NO MCH" pfinder groups last patch and they're popping up again.

As the thread title says, at its current function, MCH is a dead class. We don't bring enough DPS to be considered over the other two Phys Ranged to make up for their utility, and we don't bring any utility of our own aside from Tactician, which every dps class has in some way or another at varying effectiveness (Addle, Feint, Shield Samba, Troub).

I am full of copium that the Machinist posts will be seen.

Curious would folks enjoy mch if they slapped huge dmg on it but gave its gcds the slow walk cast like it has in pvp?

I would for sure.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

On top of that, it's competing for the ranged role. There is no problem having 2 casters or 2 melees, but having 2 ranged is very bad.

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It's been pretty standard to see farm parties that lock the 4th dps to caster/melee, but even after the 6.1 "buff," I've started seeing farm parties lock the ranged slot to DNC/BRD only. If MCH wasn't dead before, I think this confirms it.

I think if they are unwilling to buff damage or add comparable support...why not make the job be the 'debuff' job? Add gadgets that hamper/hinder the enemy etc. Then it would be unique and offer something.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

BLM, RDM, and SMN are entirely different because the classes don't have the same mobility limitations. SMN is practically no different than physRanged for mobility, RDM only has to cast every other spell, BLM has far more restrictive movement than either those two classes while hard casting. Turn MCH into a turret class that has to hunker down to DPS and you may have an argument there.

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DNC has En Avant for extra mobility making it the most mobile of the Ranged. SMN is the most mobile of the casters since the greater majority of its rotation are instant casts, while also having a gap closer.

BRD is slightly less mobile, with only Repelling Shot as extra mobility. RDM has less mobility than SMN with only instant casts every other spell while having a gap closer/disengage. Both BRD and RDM have higher damage than their counterpart of DNC and SMN.

MCH is the least mobile of the ranged jobs, having 0 mobility tools at all. BLM has fewer mobility tools than either RDM or SMN and has higher damage to compensate. MCH does NOT have more damage than BRD or DNC though.

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You also omitted MCH has the same shield BRD and DNC.

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Addle exists and serves the same purpose as MCH/BRD/DNCs mitigation buffs. They're role actions in all but name

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

MCH does NOT have more damage than BRD or DNC though.

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Current metrics say otherwise, MCH does more dmg in 99% of all content. The difference in mobility between MCH and DNC/BRD isnt anything close to the difference between BLM/SMN thats not even a close comparison.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

Current metrics say otherwise, MCH does more dmg in 99% of all content. The difference in mobility between MCH and DNC/BRD isnt anything close to the difference between BLM/SMN thats not even a close comparison.

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Hyperbole doesn't make your argument right. We don't have the metrics to determine if every Dungeon/24man/etc MCH is doing more damage than BRD/DNC so I'm calling BS on this "argument" .

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Hyperbole doesn't make your argument right. We don't have the metrics to determine if every Dungeon/24man/etc MCH is doing more damage than BRD/DNC so I'm calling BS on this "argument" .

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What we have is FFlogs, and yes that is not 100% reliable but it is all we have. What's your source then? Where are you getting info that MCH loses to BRD and DNC? Im curious.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

What we have is FFlogs, and yes that is not 100% reliable but it is all we have. What's your source then? Where are you getting info that MCH loses to BRD and DNC? Im curious.

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Even on FFlogs, MCH is outclasses in practically every area.
DNC is ahead in dungeons.
Raids has BRD and DNC ahead, both normal and savage.

Only the new 24 man has MCH ahead but considering it's been out all of 1 week, it's hardly accurate and a far cry from 99% of content

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

What we have is FFlogs, and yes that is not 100% reliable but it is all we have. What's your source then? Where are you getting info that MCH loses to BRD and DNC? Im curious.

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We do. And you're reading them incorrectly. I even outlined to you why Machinist is nowhere near Bard and Dancer yet you've seemingly ignored it. Simply glancing at the rDPS or aDPS tab does not properly illustrate overall output. While still helpful, you have to consider their contribution under raid buffs. This is where Machinist gets hopelessly outclassed. To repeat myself from earlier.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

]For specifics, allow me to highlight these three logs from top ranked Prange players to better illustrate the point.

Dancer gave 1,930 DPS while taking 436 for a net gain of 1,494 DPS
Bard gave 1,806 DPS while taking 573 for a net gain of 1,233 DPS
Machinist gave 0 DPS while taking 447 for a net gain of 447 DPS

As you can see, Dancer and Bard give an astronomical amount more overall DPS to the party due to buffing other jobs. Samurai, Black Mage and Dark Knight are benefit immensely from both jobs. Contrast that with Machinist that brings nothing and offers nothing. It's objectively weaker in every facet, hence why it's been entirely nonexistent in the speed meta this entire tier. Even a month in no one played it at that level. Not even 1%. Literally no one. White Mage, Paladin and Warrior all had more of a presence despite them being anti-speed. That's how bad Machinist is right now. This "buff" doesn't even nudge the needle.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Even on FFlogs, MCH is outclasses in practically every area.
DNC is ahead in dungeons.
Raids has BRD and DNC ahead, both normal and savage.

Only the new 24 man has MCH ahead but considering it's been out all of 1 week, it's hardly accurate and a far cry from 99% of content

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As of today:

Dungeons:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mch99dung.jpg


Across all Players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchalldung.jpg


Extremes:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchextreme99.jpg


All ranges:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchextremeall.jpg


Normal Raids:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchnormal99.jpg

No point for all ranges MCH is already way ahead at the top levels the gap only grows as you move to lower percentiles.


Savage Raids:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchsav99.jpg
Here we finally see buff classes edging out when doing the hardest content at the most optimal levels and even then its minor.


All percentiles:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchallsav.jpg
But unless you are literally playing perfectly and with 7 other of the best 1% of players in the game it goes back to MCH.

So yea MCH drops 1-3% in the hardest content when played by the best players in the game, but otherwise you know the content 99% of the players experience MCH is quite ahead of the other phys-ranged.

this is all rDPS btw so it is taking into account DPS gained from buffs, switch to Adps or Ndps and MCH is leagues ahead.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

We do. And you're reading them incorrectly. I even outlined to you why Machinist is nowhere near Bard and Dancer yet you've seemingly ignored it. Simply glancing at the rDPS or aDPS tab does not properly illustrate overall output. While still helpful, you have to consider their contribution under raid buffs. This is where Machinist gets hopelessly outclassed. To repeat myself from earlier.

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That's because MCH isn't a buff class? Sure DNC gave 1.494k to MCHs 447 but how much more personal DPS did MCH contribute over Dancer? If DNC only does 5.8k DPS but gains 1.4k DPS thru their buffs for a total of 7.2k dmg, and MCH does 7.2k DPS but gains nothing from buffs, then they both contribute the same. My previous post shows the results of DPS gained thru buffs and MCH contributes more except when played with a group at the highest levels and then the gap between all 3 phys-ranged dps is within 2% of each other.

I do more damage on BRD than on MCH, and I don't even know how to play BRD.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

As of today:

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As of today:
Dungeons are 4 players content.
If we remove 4 players from the party, of course rDPS of DNC/BRD will be lower. Using 4 player content is nonsense just like using 24 man raid content.
Extremes are quite biased. With add phase on the 2 first and a long downtime on the first. Yet I can't explain the difference between P1S and Endsinger EX, both are full uptime content but both present different data. What's even weirder is that P1S often ends at 6:40~7:00 mark, in theory MCH should benefit the most from this kill time.
Maybe because it's been only a week, maybe we'll need more time, but there is a big discrepancy.
Normal raid are not optimized, it's normal that DNC and BRD will not get very high because most players moved onto savage. Only non-raiders still play normal mode.

It's normal that MCH is leagues ahead aDPS and nDPS wise, that's like comparing a MCH to a DNC that doesn't dance.

Savage raids are the best metric to take in account simply because that's where DPS counts the most.
And it's exactly where it counts the most that it's in the shadow of the two other ranged that also offer more utility tool.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

As of today:
Dungeons are 4 players content.
If we remove 4 players from the party, of course rDPS of DNC/BRD will be lower. Using 4 player content is nonsense just like using 24 man raid content.
Extremes are quite biased. With add phase on the 2 first and a long downtime on the first. Yet I can't explain the difference between P1S and Endsinger EX, both are full uptime content but both present different data. What's even weirder is that P1S often ends at 6:40~7:00 mark, in theory MCH should benefit the most from this kill time.
Normal raid are not optimized, it's normal that DNC and BRD will not get very high because most players moved onto savage. Only non-raiders still play normal mode.

Savage raids are the best metric to take in account simply because that's where DPS counts the most...

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Why would SE design only around 1 piece of content? Furthermore the content the least amount of players participate in. You're basically saying its ok for BRD and DNC to suck in solo content, group content, content with adds, pretty much ALL CONTENT that isn't savage. And hey they suck in savage too unless the rest of your party are all great players. Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time. Besides MCH, DNC and BRD can all clear savage as is with plenty of time to spare on enrage so DPS isn't an issue for clearing content.

Normal Raids are not optimized, yes probably true. BRD and DNC need every thing they do to be optimized or they suck, that's how buffs work. I certainly don't get optimized groups in everything I do. MCH doesn't need this, they just worry about their own performance which is why they are ahead in everything outside the most optimized groups. But hey even Savage among 90% of all savage players MCH does better. Only when you reach the top 10% does BRD and DNC surpass MCH. It takes a whole party of perfect execution in a perfect scenario with perfect buff windows for DNC and BRD to pull ahead. MCH again doesn't need anything special, you don't rely on 7 other people executing perfectly to perform well.

Imagine starting a new class and being told. So you can play DNC or BRD but keep in mind you will be the worst DPS in all content until you hit savage and find a group of 7 other amazing players who never make mistakes and once you do you'll shoot 1-3% higher than MCH to become the 2nd or 3rd worst class. Or you can play MCH do great dmg in all of the games content including savage until you reach the highest level possible at which point you might drop 1-3%. You guys may not care about 99% of the games content but the majority of players do.

I really wish we could have had a discussion about fixing the range role and making MCH, DNC and BRD desired but its clear all MCH players want to do is be the best phys-ranged option for all scenarios making BRD and DNC pointless.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time.

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Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

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Im glad you're not a game designer.

I mean Kitfox isn't wrong, if your only selling point is your damage and throughout the course of a fight the other two roles in your tier are doing more, how is that fair?

The other roles damage is reliant on party members but even on a personal level bards not doing to bad right now, but Machinist is your own ability to play the job, so why should is be less than the other two? That makes no sense, litterally do you think blm would be picked if it did less damage than rdm or smn? Of course not, the other casters have way more use with their utility in that scenario.

As it is Mch has very little going for it, most statics will take a bard or dancer over mch any day of the week.

I would also make the comparison with Sam in its respective tier but 6.1 did that for me. They're suffering the mch issue right now. Should Sam be the lowest dps for melees? Of course not, its selling point is that its a pure dps.

Phys ranged is the worst role to balance, ShB had dancer on top, so far endwalker favours bard, 3 expansions of being shoved in a shoebox will ofcourse undoubtably upset the mch community, especially if your job was butchered, but you told yourself "Its okay, the ShB changes are a great foundation to be built apon. I'm sure SE will do a great job expanding on these systems, and adding a bit more depth or complexity to the job" only to be told your job was finished, and the abilitys given to you were copy and pastes, whilst they didn't address the issues that is present with the current itteration of the job.

I'm just glad we have people telling us to shut up because of mobility tax when all jobs can have 95% or higher uptime in any fight SE has designed in recent years, it's depressing lmao.

So let us voice our genuine concerns with the job and the onslaught of butchering of jobs, that has followed since the mch rework. The job has issues, the devs clearly don't know what direction to take it, at this point they need to do something and people like you aren't helping the situation by ignoring it. If this continues then every job in the game will be in a similar position, mch was first, somehow they made dancer even easier, sam nin and drg are about to be "reworked".

The best we can hope for is for the devs to implement some of the ideas pvp mch has so that we can have some semblance of rewarding gameplay rather than a low damage mess with a low skill cap, thats currently being excluded from pfs on crystal when the comunity has dubbed it as the pf job.

Mch unfortunately is a joke right now. I just hope more jobs don't suffer what we're going through like sam right now. We we're the first job in a wave of "reworks".

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Originally Posted by ShimAoki

Snip...

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You have a point.

If the damage output was the only "selling point" against BRD and DNC, then MCH should do way more damage. Sadly, we all know that it's not how it's going. If only we could put some "Potency" on those utility buff from BRD/DNC, just to see in number the difference against MCH. But again, BRD and DNC are dependant of their party and if the party is bad, so is the Rdps of BRD/DNC. Therefore, calculating how many DPS MCH should do isn't a easy task...

When you talk about the SAM, you say it should be a pure DPS, and that's also true. If we look to the DPS role, each type (Melee, Ranged, Magic) have their "BLMish" Alter-Ego. SAM for Melee, MCH for Ranged. Samourai was on top tier DPS before 6.1, but the nerf they took was a hard shot into the face, completely destroying the damage output for them. Even if the removal of Kaiten wasn't welcomed by a majority of the community, I see an opportunity to make change to the class on a long-term time. 6.2 could be a patch for the Samourai rework, as it was seen for the monk in 5.2 ShB (If i'm not mistaken).

The only thing SE can make to bring DPS up by a significant amount of the MCH is to add cast-time ability, and therefore, cutting the mobility. Samourai have casting hability, and casting for a melee isn't something we are used to and this cut the mobility.

Adapting PvP-like ability into the PvE version should be something doable. Maybe having to switch between the Drill, poison, Anchor and Chainsaw can be something usable, as well as the sniper who could be a huge finisher.

I wonder why SE has been so conservative when it comes to adjusting MCH's DPS. After the outcry over the minuscule buff in 6.08, SE has kinda predictably done it again in 6.1. Why is it bad for MCH to have DPS number closer to melees? Why is 2 melees/2 casters an option but not 2 physical ranges? My personal opinion is that the 4th dps slot should be open to all melees, blm or mch.

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Originally Posted by Ayden

I wonder why SE has been so conservative when it comes to adjusting MCH's DPS. After the outcry over the minuscule buff in 6.08, SE has kinda predictably done it again in 6.1. Why is it bad for MCH to have DPS number closer to melees? Why is 2 melees/2 casters an option but not 2 physical ranges? My personal opinion is that the 4th dps slot should be open to all melees, blm or mch.

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it is a general fear in game designing to have range DPS outperform or perform equally to Melee DPS with little consequences in almost any game. Partly due to how if a Range DPS outperforms or is equal to a Melee DPS, it lowers the amount of people needing and wanting to play melee DPS beyond the challenge of also being in melee range.

Many past games generally had this issue when range DPS that have little consequence to their performance in anyways outshines a melee dps or are equal to DPS because of the mentality of "why bother beyond just the challenge of being in melee range when you can do the same in range combat and have less risks?"

Don't get me started on how bad things gets in certain games when Meta gets involved between choosing a Range Job that does equal or more damage than a Melee Job. Those tend to go down the hole of Range Jobs being favored and Melee Job only played if you have ultra instincts level of dodging skills to lower risk of losing rDPS from DPS role players dying.

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That aside, the basic concern now is mostly DPS increase for MCH do fit into the role it has been given as the Pure DPS Physical Range job compared to Dancer and Bard which focus partly on maintaining their party buffs.


I say this before in past post but I do see some ideals that can work for MCH from the Blitz job from Dungeon Fighter online.

One such concept is the Bunker wall placement. It can act like MCH's leyline but focus on staying behind it to maintain DPS boost and a damage reduction buff while having a skill that allows MCH to redeploy it during moments when he/she does not need to move around the map often. Not to mention have additional skills that utilize that deployable Bunker wall to act as a 2nd protection from heavy attacks for the party or increase the damage of the MCH even more.

Another addition I think they should utilize is the concept of some kind of Protocol mechanic to improve the Queen's functions. Make them like OGCD skills that instant summons the Queen to perform certain attacks which players can weave into their combos. That or they use each Protocol to summon different drones based on the chess pieces we don't use yet being Knight and pawns to perform certain buffs and attacks

Speaking of Queen, improvements for her can be done to remove the 3 to 4 second summon process. Instead of going through that digitalization summon animation, the Queen should just be summoned by falling from the sky either to punch the target the moment she is summoned with a super hero landing or rider kick them so the Queen can get right into the action instead of the long delay she has currently.

Ammo system can be reintroduced as energy for the Sniper rifle skills to act as MCH strong OGCD attacks so players have to consider what type of Sniper Rifle skills to use if they want to either perform strong AoE on multiple enemies or focus on Single target stronger hits.

Flamethrower has been just bad since release in 4.0. I always felt it will be a better skill as a DoT debuff skill to act as the main DoT skill for MCH while Bioblaster act as a secondary DoT skill for situational moments involving kill large numbers of mobs since Bioblaster shares cooldown with Drill.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

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Please edit to add BRD/DNC mobility.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

Why would SE design only around 1 piece of content? Furthermore the content the least amount of players participate in. You're basically saying its ok for BRD and DNC to suck in solo content, group content, content with adds, pretty much ALL CONTENT that isn't savage. And hey they suck in savage too unless the rest of your party are all great players. Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time. Besides MCH, DNC and BRD can all clear savage as is with plenty of time to spare on enrage so DPS isn't an issue for clearing content.

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There is no need to balance jobs for dungeons, normal and r24.
You can die 30 times or afk, as long as your team doesn't kick you, you will clear the content.
It's not a PvP game where a difficult character/job would be worthless in lower elo but an auto win in the end of very high elo players. High elo players would want a nerf, but that would make the character/job worthless for lower elo players.

If you balance all job based on their skill floor, their skill ceiling would be uneven. And that's how you create an unbalanced meta.

Finally, it's time to stop with "all job can clear" logic.
If all jobs can clear, then there is no issue with raising MCH DPS. Following that logic you could bump MCH top DPS and that wouldn't matter because all jobs could still clear.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

There is no need to balance jobs for dungeons, normal and r24.
You can die 30 times or afk, as long as your team doesn't kick you, you will clear the content.
It's not a PvP game where a difficult character/job would be worthless in lower elo but an auto win in the end of very high elo players. High elo players would want a nerf, but that would make the character/job worthless for lower elo players.

If you balance all job based on their skill floor, their skill ceiling would be uneven. And that's how you create an unbalanced meta.

Finally, it's time to stop with "all job can clear" logic.
If all jobs can clear, then there is no issue with raising MCH DPS. Following that logic you could bump MCH top DPS and that wouldn't matter because all jobs could still clear.

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Based, I agree all jobs can clear but its a bit wonky when pfs are starting to exclude jobs in extreme content, I mean its extreme for crying out loud, its not exactly the hardest content in the game. If this trend follows to savage content, then SE will be forced to do something, its unfair.

It also doesn't help that player's constantly ask "Can mch compete in the new ultimate day 1" or "will it be a major disadvantage". I guess SE is okay with this though as they refused, 2 patch cycles in a row to make the nessassary changes, yet they happily buffed dancer by 5% in 6.08. maybe next patch our next 2.4% will make us at least somewhat wanted by the player base, as it is I'm lucky I met my ultimate group before and have already cleared content with them, because if the numbers are anything to go by on paper, I probably wouldn't be invited.

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Originally Posted by Chyro

If you enjoy the gameplay of a class, just play it and have fun. Why let numbers determine whether you're having fun playing or not?
Does having slightly higher numbers make the gameplay more fun?

Not that its wrong to complain or give feedback and want your class to get the same treatment as others. But wouldn't you be happier if you just stop worrying about the numbers and just play the class you enjoy to the best of your ability?

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The gameplay did change. I'm not a big min-maxer and that aspect of the samurai changes are whatever to me. The bigger thing is the feel of the class is terrible now compared to what it was. Setting up a combo chain into a big bursty hit, and further amplifying it with one of the most badass sword flourishes in the game was SO MUCH FUN for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chyro

If you enjoy the gameplay of a class, just play it and have fun. Why let numbers determine whether you're having fun playing or not?
Does having slightly higher numbers make the gameplay more fun?

Not that its wrong to complain or give feedback and want your class to get the same treatment as others. But wouldn't you be happier if you just stop worrying about the numbers and just play the class you enjoy to the best of your ability?

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Because I play on a savage and ultimate level and having to play at 100% (not the best player, not the worst) just to keep up with my party and not feel like I'm wasting a party slot in competitive content when other roles would do the job way better, but I've invested 6 years into a job and deeply love its aethetic. I wish I could stop worrying about the numbers, but this issue has persisited for years and every rework you tell yourself "finally they have a direction, they'll fix it" only to be exactly where they reworked the job from thus making the rework redundant. My copium is immesserable. I've said it before but I also don't want other jobs getting butchered in a similar direction, because simplisity vs damage output is an issue the devs didn't think about when not giving us utility to compensate for how easy it is now, now don't get me wrong, current mch is fun to play, but it feels like a template that they didn't expand on, and instead told us that they made the job with 0 progressions in mind for future content, thus defeating that rewarding excitment of getting through the start of an expansion, to experience the new skills, hoping that they meaningfully expand upon the simplisity of the current version, only to get copy and pasted skills, which turn our identity more into a drill dumper than a machinist. Drill is a cool skill, or at least it was when it had the numbers to back it up, I understand the need for the stat squish but it felt like they removed the potency drill had, and distributed it between 3 drills rather than have them feel powerful. I love 2 reassembles but the issue with this skill is the same thing removing kaiten was, kaiten was a gauge spender, it rewarded you from using it in burst windows. Reassemble is more of a use on drill cooldown skill. Theres 0 complexity to enjoy in min maxing the job. I would personally love just a little more depth. Especially when they release RPR and RPR is you but better, you cannot convince me that RPR isn't just melee mch with utility from how it plays. Enshroud is a way more fun wildfire window. For me, RPR showed me that the systems in place could be expanded upon but just weren't.