Is it just me or are some Healers refusing to Heal Paladins?

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

This thread really reminds me that SE really needs to add more healer trusts in the game.

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I would rather see programmable Gambits in Trusts like we had in FF12 and that games like Dragon Age 1 used.

For example I would set my healer to heal after you go below 50%

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

To play devil's advocate, the DPS being off in Narnia could also be classed as 'Uncooperative behaviour' as you are actively making the job of the healer harder. This swings both ways and is a reason why, in these situations, you cannot just slam down the ToS and not consider the opposing view.

The crux of the matter is, if noone dies, why does it matter whether a healer keeps you fully topped up or not? As a long time tank player, I have come across several types of healers and the only ones I feared for my life are the ones that tunnel vision DPS and do not consider healing at all. I never consider using Clemency unless the healer is dead and even then, if I think I can get through without using it, I will.

In regards to big dungeon pulls, I would honestly say the biggest factor is the DPS. If the DPS is not high enough, it doesn't matter how good your tank/healer are, you will make it harder for them and be more of a nuisance than anything else.

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We were responding to a healer who literally posted that they do let people die and don't care, thinking it will teach them a lesson.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

There is a fundamental difference in our mindset. You show up to content to keep healthbars full. I show up to heal as efficiently as possible and will not adjust for bad play. Simple.

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It's not healing efficiently if your party can't do their job because you're obsessed with this or that number. The optimization mindset is fine in content that requires it and with players where you're familiar with their style. But in a dungeon situation with random players, it's the person not helping them do their jobs that is playing badly.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It's not healing efficiently if your party can't do their job because you're obsessed with this or that number. The optimization mindset is fine in content that requires it and with players where you're familiar with their style. But in a dungeon situation with random players, it's the person not helping them do their jobs that is playing badly.

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Or it can be argued that it's the players who are:

- consistently staying out of range of healing range
- repeatedly/deliberately not avoiding avoidable damage
- not attempting to follow mechanics, taking advice , e.g. follow the dorito, look at party chat
- not using CDs, self-heals

Are not helping the healer, and are being uncooperative. I mean we can beat this to death, however it goes to a certain knowledge of each job, a certain reasonable level of performance that should be expected of each job, i would say by all means leave sprouts out of the above- but that's not even being optimal.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

We were responding to a healer who literally posted that they do let people die and don't care, thinking it will teach them a lesson.

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I never justified their actions, I just stated the ToS that was posted could be taken in both ways and is therefore not a good argument for or against the actions of the healer/dps in that scenario.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Or it can be argued that it's the players who are:

- consistently staying out of range of healing range
- repeatedly/deliberately not avoiding avoidable damage
- not attempting to follow mechanics, taking advice , e.g. follow the dorito, look at party chat
- not using CDs, self-heals

Are not helping the healer, and are being uncooperative. I mean we can beat this to death, however it goes to a certain knowledge of each job, a certain reasonable level of performance that should be expected of each job, i would say by all means leave sprouts out of the above- but that's not even being optimal.

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I think everyone should agree that "deliberately" not avoiding avoidable damage is disrespectful to the entire party. The healer has to cater to you and could be doing other things like more damage instead.

I disagree about "repeatedly" as there are so many encounters in this game but it can be hard to remember everything, and some of them are a little confusing so it's possible a player gets hit by things more than once. I had an Omega raid for example where I was doing it for the first time so I had just watched a video, but we wiped the first time as the group literally hadn't been there in years so I was able to type in chat where they needed to stand for the AEs, as they were essentially a set pattern the first half of the fight. So, I don't find it being purposely uncooperative to just forget, or be less skilled at a given mechanic.

I usually see this in alliance raids a lot, but for whatever reason people spread out all over the encounter. I try to stand in the middle but there are those ranged DPS that ends up out of range. Just ask them to stay closer to you. If they don't because they aren't paying attention, I'll still move to try to find them if I can so they don't die. Doesn't always work and I could use that time again to do something else, but overall it's best they remain alive. Unless they are running away from me on purpose, which has never happened in my history of playing this game, I don't find that to be purposely uncooperative.

I do find a healer acting like a prima-donna and refusing to heal someone when they can because they think they aren't a good enough player, and also just pretending their GCD heals don't even exist at all, is uncooperative.

People like this should only play in statics or party-finders. Else you must adapt to the random players you get in duty finder.

99% of the time, players in duty finder are not playing sub-optimally out of malice.

Who cares as long the Healer its busy doing DPS(faster run/clear) and healing when needed it instead of bein a bot spamming heals for no reason.

Some people are just horrible at being healers, like when someone got resurrect and a big aoe comes next they forget to heal him/her and dies because they are still at 20% hp.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Who cares as long the Healer its busy doing DPS(faster run/clear) and healing when needed it instead of bein a bot spamming heals for no reason.

Some people are just horrible at being healers, like when someone got resurrect and a big aoe comes next they forget to heal him/her and dies because they are still at 20% hp.

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or the healer dies right before the aoe goes off and whoever the poor sob that's getting killed will be blamed for it and before you mention the the thing makes you take no damage for a bit after being res'd that only helps if the aoe happens before it wears off

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Nah. Curebots get showered in comms and healers who actually know what they are doing don't get much because tanks and DPS who don't know how healing works don't see them casting benefic. It's worse in 8 man stuff because other players assume the """glarebot""" is chadding and are unloading all the healing onto the curebot when the other healer with 80% overhealing just leaves them nothing to heal in the first place.

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Yeah I know comms not really the best thing but maybe some kind of rude/downer/rager commendation that you can give out to those special someones
Its not to discourage good play its to encourage impatient tryhards from ruining other people's fun by complaining that a rando-duty finder doesn't measure up to their static's standards

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Or it can be argued that it's the players who are:

- consistently staying out of range of healing range
- repeatedly/deliberately not avoiding avoidable damage
- not attempting to follow mechanics, taking advice , e.g. follow the dorito, look at party chat
- not using CDs, self-heals

Are not helping the healer, and are being uncooperative. I mean we can beat this to death, however it goes to a certain knowledge of each job, a certain reasonable level of performance that should be expected of each job, i would say by all means leave sprouts out of the above- but that's not even being optimal.

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Only if you think the people are doing that (or have communicated they are as I mentioned about the "healer adjust" attitude) entirely on purpose and are deliberately setting out to screw up and mess up your day. All of those could be someone is new, someone is inexperienced, someone has a mechanic they just don't get, someone is tired, someone got momentarily distracted, someone is just off that day, or any other thing that could be happening behind the screen. I see this mindset a lot, that random players are messing up on purpose just to ruin someone else's run. And it's just not true. The vast majority of players are just trying to get through the run for whatever reason they need to run it. Trying to label them with things like uncooperative and playing badly is just trying to justify punitive behavior.

I sometimes don't bother dodging AoEs on trash when I'm on Machinist and casting Flamethrower. Of course, since I've healed the dungeons I'm now doing as DD I'll be certain that the damage I take isn't excessive to bother the healer. I use Second Wind and time my Tactician, okay?!

Also, this is going to sound accusatory but reading OP's posts across the Tank forums and other threads, I can safely say they prefer healers never, ever damage and keep them topped at all times. I mean, I'm all for healing > damage, but it's not like there's two extremes to this. You can damage while healing, developers are facilitating it. You as a tank can rotate your defensives properly and live without heals until 30%. Just because your health fell a bit doesn't need to mean it's all over.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Only if you think the people are doing that (or have communicated they are as I mentioned about the "healer adjust" attitude) entirely on purpose and are deliberately setting out to screw up and mess up your day. All of those could be someone is new, someone is inexperienced, someone has a mechanic they just don't get, someone is tired, someone got momentarily distracted, someone is just off that day, or any other thing that could be happening behind the screen. I see this mindset a lot, that random players are messing up on purpose just to ruin someone else's run. And it's just not true. The vast majority of players are just trying to get through the run for whatever reason they need to run it. Trying to label them with things like uncooperative and playing badly is just trying to justify punitive behavior.

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Note that i did note label these players, this wasn't accidental, this is where people can typically start bickering back and forth.

On the contrary, I want people to recognize that there is an effect that this type of behaviour has on healers, and that should be considered.

Can some healers seem to judge the players i described? Yes, that is human nature- some healers could get frustrated for example, there are all kinds of healers. Personally i do not see this mindset "a lot", I do see more of the "let's deal with the cards we're dealt, get through this run' mentality. "

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Note that i did note label these players, this wasn't accidental, this is where people can typically start bickering back and forth.

On the contrary, I want people to recognize that there is an effect that this type of behaviour has on healers, and that should be considered.

Can some healers seem to judge the players i described? Yes, that is human nature- some healers could get frustrated for example, there are all kinds of healers. Personally i do not see this mindset "a lot", I do see more of the "let's deal with the cards we're dealt, get through this run' mentality. "

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I should correct with I see the mindset *here*. In game, it's exactly as you said. We're all just trying to get through the run in most PUGs I get.

I don't know man, your experiences are not universal never had this before nor anyone commenting about it

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

The more I see these the more I think that duty roulette needs to be earned by recent recent player commendations.
There’s a lot of 90 percenters (90s across the board) with terrible attitudes, probably because they play too much and you are slowing them down.
People who view the duty roulette xp as an entitlement.
Maybe not +1 commendations but some kind of karma idk, those kinds of players nobody wants to play with and nobody should have to suffer them in duty roulette

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I got showered with comms in my earlier days of being Suckorbot, Adlobot, and Physickbot.

Nowadays comms are only ”because you’re healer”-gesture or genuine compliments for i.e saving bad runs.

I can already see what kind of healer I’m going to be paired with if I play any other roles. Yeah no. I’m hugging tight my green icon.

After checking the forbidden site, I have a very strong feeling that OP isn't playing their job effectively, and is simply blaming other players for their own shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I got showered with comms in my earlier days of being Suckorbot, Adlobot, and Physickbot.

Nowadays comms are only ”because you’re healer”-gesture or genuine compliments for i.e saving bad runs.

I can already see what kind of healer I’m going to be paired with if I play any other roles. Yeah no. I’m hugging tight my green icon.

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These are exactly the kind of people who don't deserve the privilege of using the duty finder

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

After checking the forbidden site, I have a very strong feeling that OP isn't playing their job effectively, and is simply blaming other players for their own shortcomings.

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Not just ineffectively, I have a feeling they literally don't touch their mitigation at all as PLD, including group mitigation.

How do you even wind up as a tank and not use mitigation? Because I've seen this more commonly and I don't get it. Without the mitigation tools you're kinda just a wonky DPS, clearly that has to feel off to people doesn't it?

Same thing on healers though I guess, the entire role has been boiled down to a few reactionary OGCDs you simply weave between DPS with spell queing and... people still can't do it. The role has been so outrageously simplified it could be easily substituted on others and removed from the game entirely.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Not just ineffectively, I have a feeling they literally don't touch their mitigation at all as PLD, including group mitigation.

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I shall have to share these findings.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/1f1bfd35...df1o1_400.gifv

Might want to be careful with voicing those feelings. Talking about feelings too much might not end well for the community.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

How do you even wind up as a tank and not use mitigation? Because I've seen this more commonly and I don't get it.

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My guess is that it's similar to what happens with Limit Breaks: often times, people save it as a "finishing move" of sorts for flash, or for emergency circumstances. The difference, in this case, is that the tank in question may be thinking that they need to save their mitigation specifically for moments when they see attacks with cast bars, or boss fights specifically.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Might want to be careful with voicing those feelings. Talking about feelings too much might not end well for the community.

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I have a feeling we are going to see a change. Now I know some of the newer people will say they won't change classes or systems that much, but I am old enough to remember when the hardcore minority in this game said they would never get rid of the Cross Class System which of course they did because it made normal peoples leveling a chore.

This goes for every role. I encounter this type of healer almost daily in dungeons as a DPS. They barely heal and only when you dip to whatever they consider low enough.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

My guess is that it's similar to what happens with Limit Breaks: often times, people save it as a "finishing move" of sorts for flash, or for emergency circumstances. The difference, in this case, is that the tank in question may be thinking that they need to save their mitigation specifically for moments when they see attacks with cast bars, or boss fights specifically.

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Some people unironically think that having to cycle through all their mitigation is a sign of a bad healer or that mitigation is for emergencies.
I've only had few wipes in leveling dungeons but when it happened it was usually because the tank wasn't using mitigation properly in ShB and EW dungeons where some things should be common sense. When I asked them if they could use cooldowns and linked them with auto translate, their reaction was usually "I never needed it before/ it always worked without them/ their other healers didn't need it" or "I use it when I see the healer can't keep up".

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Originally Posted by Imoye

This goes for every role. I encounter this type of healer almost daily in dungeons as a DPS. They barely heal and only when you dip to whatever they consider low enough.

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Thats fine though , the only health point that matters is the last . A healer that knows how to gauge the incoming damage to the tank(s) and heals only when the blows will kill the tank(s) if they dont oGCD , heal boost buff +oGCD etc etc and spend the other gcs(recast time windows) throwing damage , thats a great healer

If youve never experienced it and you get a great healer than can safely keep you at 20-50% so that it can use the rest of its time to damage , its wonderful because yes the damage adds up , and you can see it with how much quicker packs of trash mobs fall when you have a healer joining in doing their best with , all be it limited, AOE attacks especially if its a WHM using Holy like its going out of fashion.

why would we heal them?
its literally in their names;
PALAhealerDIN

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That is exactly what SGE is supposed to be. Still not enough for the DPS minded healer though. I am of the mind that those players should give RDM a try to see if it is more fitting. Unfortunately, playing RDM loses out on the luxury of healer queue times. RDMs also have to sacrifice damage to heal, a big no-no for the DPS-minded healer. However, playing RDM lets you know why healers exist, because your ability to do it, while respectable, is very limited.

Point remains though that a healer refusing to heal, regardless of the job or role is basically a stubborn old goat who likely should get with the program instead of wallowing in their bubble.

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Sage's 1 button damage rotation does not appeal to anyone, let alone dps players.

I can't really say I've noticed cause I'm the healer and I'll DPS and heal both when necessary. If not a healer I'm a tank...which by tank I mean WAR...so I heal myself through violence.

I should do PLD again and just check this out.

Since OP is talking about Big Pulls I assume this is in a dungeon.

So as a healer I generally don't use any gcd healing on a tank in a dungeon during the combat itself.
I only need to use them if:
1- A tank doesn't use mitigation properly
2- Dps cannot dps properly
3- You have a completely new person that eats every mechanic possible.

Most of the time it's #2 rather then #1 and yes I'll get annoyed at it because I am doing my job why aren't they doing theirs.

more info on #3:
You keep them alive to the best of your ability but at a certain point you stop because nomatter what you do the next thing will kill them regardless so let them die and ress them, hopefully they learned from dying.

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Originally Posted by MrSigy

Since OP is talking about Big Pulls I assume this is in a dungeon.

So as a healer I generally don't use any gcd healing on a tank in a dungeon during the combat itself.
I only need to use them if:
1- A tank doesn't use mitigation properly
2- Dps cannot dps properly
3- You have a completely new person that eats every mechanic possible.

Most of the time it's #2 rather then #1 and yes I'll get annoyed at it because I am doing my job why aren't they doing theirs.

more info on #3:
You keep them alive to the best of your ability but at a certain point you stop because nomatter what you do the next thing will kill them regardless so let them die and ress them, hopefully they learned from dying.

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I wish more people realized that the DPS performance massively influences how well pulls are going. It's not the job of no responsibilities.

It's just you.

What really bothers me with Healers that it feels like Healers do everything in their power to heal me when I want to die with my LD popped.

DRK tanking = I sleep
DRK popping LD = REAL SHIT!

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

It's just you.

What really bothers me with Healers that it feels like Healers do everything in their power to heal me when I want to die with my LD popped.

DRK tanking = I sleep
DRK popping LD = REAL SHIT!

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It's probably because they don't know the difference between Living Dead (the buff with the red icon) and Walking Dead (the debuff with the grey icon), and also they probably don't know that now you can heal yourself as DRK after Living Dead pops and you get Walking Dead. When they see the red icon they just panic and try to heal you to 100% because they think you'll die otherwise

what i wanna know is why so many rdm refuse to res.
i'll let it slide if we're in level 70 content because they only just unlocked it but c'mon guys. especially in 24-man raids. i'll even be like "sorry; swiftcast's on cd. <rdm> can you get them for me?" and they'll either ignore me or say "you don't pay my sub" and it's like...

yeah, i don't pay your sub. but unless you want this 24-man raid to last until your next billing period i suggest you start popping that verraise.

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Originally Posted by Denji

what i wanna know is why so many rdm refuse to res.
i'll let it slide if we're in level 70 content because they only just unlocked it but c'mon guys. especially in 24-man raids. i'll even be like "sorry; swiftcast's on cd. <rdm> can you get them for me?" and they'll either ignore me or say "you don't pay my sub" and it's like...

yeah, i don't pay your sub. but unless you want this 24-man raid to last until your next billing period i suggest you start popping that verraise.

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Personally, the only time I’d accept helping hand from Verraiser is when there are at least 3 or more dead bodies & one of those corpse is my co-healer. At that point, yes please RDM, if you can squeeze that raise in. If you are in middle of melee combo then please carry on and let me do my job.

Other than that, I’ll be annoyed because finding window to chain raise and be vulnerable for extended period of time without dropping the tank dead or taking any damage yourself is very satisfying. Even moreso if I’m already halfway casting the raise but then I saw that insta raise thrown at my recipient. Not cool man, I just wasted 4-7s for nothing.

Easiest solution is to not clemency. If you die, the healers will likely learn the lesson.

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Originally Posted by Denji

what i wanna know is why so many rdm refuse to res.
i'll let it slide if we're in level 70 content because they only just unlocked it but c'mon guys. especially in 24-man raids. i'll even be like "sorry; swiftcast's on cd. <rdm> can you get them for me?" and they'll either ignore me or say "you don't pay my sub" and it's like...

yeah, i don't pay your sub. but unless you want this 24-man raid to last until your next billing period i suggest you start popping that verraise.

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For what it's worth, I've lost count of the number of times I've simply missed seeing something in chat in the middle of a fight. The chat system I find more awkward in FFXIV than other MMO's, and when you're in the middle of a tense fight (if we've reached the point of relying on RDM's for raises, I'd say it qualifies as tense), I can easily see someone's attention being focused enough on the fight itself that they don't see a request in chat.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

For what it's worth, I've lost count of the number of times I've simply missed seeing something in chat in the middle of a fight.

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That is why I went into the settings (Character Configuration > …somewhere I don't remember…) and added sound effects to Party and Alliance chat. I miss so many fewer messages when they come with a little "ding".

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

That is why I went into the settings (Character Configuration > …somewhere I don't remember…) and added sound effects to Party and Alliance chat. I miss so many fewer messages when they come with a little "ding".

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Learn something new every day! I'll have to try that out. Thanks :)

The only tank I've been playing is PLD, and I rarely use clemency if ever. Almost never on actual trash pulls. I have not had this issue since I have played it.