"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

How things like this can be hand-waved as "bad play", is just funny.

Yes and No!

Unpopular Opinion:

No. Let the Tank do the dungeon at whatever pace they want. If they wanna rush and finish the dungeon in 3 minutes, totally go for it. If they're new, don't feel confident or are just having a bad day and honestly don't feel like doing more than one pull at a time, let them do that.

Don't pull extra mobs.

DPS/Healers rushing ahead for the sake of saving a couple minutes on a run is not only rude, but can be stressful. My rule of thumb is: Let the tank dictate the pace. Don't pull ahead, or you deal with it.

When tanks do this and refuse to tank, I refuse to heal. A tank is NOT needed to do any of the dungeons in this game with normal pulls so if they only are willing to do small pulls I'd rather them just leave or kick me. For capstone dungeons they don't even need to push extra buttons for cooldowns since the healing requirements are a joke.

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Originally Posted by Bjorn-Kobito

When tanks do this and refuse to tank, I refuse to heal. A tank is NOT needed to do any of the dungeons in this game with normal pulls so if they only are willing to do small pulls I'd rather them just leave or kick me. For capstone dungeons they don't even need to push extra buttons for cooldowns since the healing requirements are a joke.

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You are more likely to be reported, and have action taken against, for doing that, than the tank, as there seems to be a bias towards 'bad' play with many in this community. I'd say people get away with a lot of actual griefing, when it's hidden under this pretense. Unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

You are more likely to be reported, and have action taken against, for doing that, than the tank, as there seems to be a bias towards 'bad' play, with many in this community. I'd say people get away with a lot of actual griefing, when it's hidden under this pretense. Unfortunate.

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Just soft grief back and stay silent in the chat. That's what I do. I refuse to play with people who are bad even if it costs me more time. It is very hard for GMs to get you if you stay cool in the chat. The last expert roulette I had where a tank refused to pull off of me I told them the "select" key was broken on my controller and I accidentally closed the pop-up for the return prompt so I couldn't respawn and revive after dying.

"Hey healer, you can tank if you want to pull"
*No response*
"Hey, are you really just going to AFK?"
-- "Sorry! My controller's select key doesn't work and I accidentally closed the return prompt to revive.... you guys will have to kick me. I don't have a mouse or anything to click it :/"

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Ironically, not taking aggro as a tank (regardless of who pulled) does indeed violate that exact paragraph of ToS ;)

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The tank not then taking pull may also be against it, but that doesn't invalidate that the initital pull is against the tos.

I don't know why people use whataboutism as an "aha, gotcha!" when it... doesn't actually invalidate the original poster's point.

pull what you want to pull, tanxiety isn't real and w2w pulls are the norm, baby pulls are the exception. my 2 cents.

if you pull ahead of me when i am tanking - i give you a gold star for managing to get ahead of me, then pull aggro off of you and continue clearing the mobs

dps, please run ahead more. makes things spicier in my expert roulettes. i can even throw heart of corundum on you so you can absorb a round of autos from the pack you pulled before i catch up

Y'know a great solution to not being 'slighted' for DPS/healers pulling ahead of you is to pull to the wall so they don't have a chance to. I mean I guess those of you who just don't WANT to can enjoy being angry if it does happen to you, but just saying it's easy to fix. Certainly never had it happen to me.

I pull ahead of Thancred each time wall-to-wall, bring the mobs to him and he takes all the aggro without the drama. So just think you are being worse than the Scions next time you want to be a DF baddie and say something stupid like that.

thats such a useless discussion. there is ONE way. you have to go down that corridor and kill all mobs anyway. what does it matter who pulls?

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Originally Posted by technole

I pull ahead of Thancred each time wall-to-wall, bring the mobs to him and he takes all the aggro without the drama. So just think you are being worse than the Scions next time you want to be a DF baddie and say something stupid like that.

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Oh sure, the scions will heal Thancred when he w2ws, but not me when I do it.

What happened to talking about things before thrusting your agenda on people?

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Every tank has multiple charges of a 20y gap-closer, which allows you to cover more ground than any of those abilities lol. In undertuned leveling dungeons the DPS could just tank the entire dungeon and it wouldn't matter.

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Tell me how to gap close ahead of the jobs I listed when I have no enemy to target. There's a reason I specifically listed those three jobs out of them all. I was reminded a smileton run where I never outsped or outran a reaper because of that. Granted, Smileton's mob clusters are fairly close so I was only behind by like, five seconds every time we encountered a pack. Can't say the same for some other instances where clusters are pretty well spaced from one another.

Why is it YPYT is always "petty" or "toxic" behavior, but going ahead and pulling ahead of the tank without discussing it with the party first isn't? The tank may be pulling slowly for a reason. Ask before you take it upon yourself to "help" by bringing extra mobs. Otherwise it's very easy to waste more time on a wipe than you'd have saved with an extra pack of mobs.

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

The DPS should run with the tank within a few feet , the healer a little behind but it doesn't really matter (think diamond formation) but if you move closely to each other accidental body pulls can be grabbed by a tank faster if your running together . Generally the way we are funnelled along corridors/walkways DPS generally dont have to use their range attacks to help the tank yet they can do

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I disagree with your healer position. A wall to wall pull means they'll want to be in position to use their spammable ae, which for healers is point-blank. They don't want to be any further back than the melee dps, if not right on the tank's heels.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

If a DPS or healer pulls in front of you as a tank, refusing to grab aggro and watching them die (or not; sometimes the healer or DPS can survive easily) is just petty. It's basically a temper tantrum. It's an "I gotta teach them a lesson" sorta attitude that is frankly kinda cringe.

That's just my opinion! Tanks shouldn't do this!

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I made a video about this but the short story is I totally agree with you and I'm saying this as a tank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3tbCc3ZZEM

Even if you’re slower, sprint out of sync, or slightly behind the speeding dps/healer for whatever reason, it takes an effort to be separated as far as 30 yalms or farther while pulling packs. It takes even more effort to not close that distance purposely.

Those early pullers can take some beating. If they don’t die until you yank the aggro off, nothing will change, everything’s progressing as intended.

My suggestion to those dps/healers that love to pull before tanks is using the trust system.

Another solution is you (itchy finger dps/healer) converting to play tank full time.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Why is it YPYT is always "petty" or "toxic" behavior, but going ahead and pulling ahead of the tank without discussing it with the party first isn't? The tank may be pulling slowly for a reason. Ask before you take it upon yourself to "help" by bringing extra mobs. Otherwise it's very easy to waste more time on a wipe than you'd have saved with an extra pack of mobs.

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Of course them going ahead is toxic, but them being toxic does not give you permission to be toxic as well. What do you get out of it? Do you think you're teaching them a lesson by letting people die?

If it's the healer pulling ahead, are you going to let them die and cause the group to wipe? I'm sure the other 2 people in the group would find that really funny. And if it's a DPS that's pulling, now the healer is stressing out having to heal them because you refuse to tank because someone else pulled.

You pull, you heal. Unless you are a tank

If you pull and die because Im still loading in to the next zone its on you for being impatient buddy.

Also if you pull something Im unaware of run to my AoE instead of standing across the hallway trying to kill it on your own. Im not gonna inconvenience the rest of the party by running back and forth constantly.

As a tank i dont care who pulls, I just want the duty done.

Only exeption is if someone is in a cutscene

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Originally Posted by Gullis

As a tank i dont care who pulls, I just want the duty done.

Only exeption is if someone is in a cutscene

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Ah, so you're a follower and not a leader.

I suggest a different job role then.

It is all down to lack of communication isn’t it.

It is the job for the tank to tank and the tank know how many he/she can handle.

If anyone feel the pull is too small, the first thing should ask the tank and heal if they can do a bigger pull.

There are no norm, it is a party decision.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Ah, so you're a follower and not a leader.

I suggest a different job role then.

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What are the follower and leader roles? I don't think those are in Final Fantasy 14...

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Ah, so you're a follower and not a leader.

I suggest a different job role then.

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Me tank! Me big leader! Me lead!! Me no follow! Me no sheep! You listen! Me leader!

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Ah, so you're a follower and not a leader.

I suggest a different job role then.

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Leadership comes through competence, buddy. Not which color your role has.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Of course them going ahead is toxic, but them being toxic does not give you permission to be toxic as well. What do you get out of it? Do you think you're teaching them a lesson by letting people die?

If it's the healer pulling ahead, are you going to let them die and cause the group to wipe? I'm sure the other 2 people in the group would find that really funny. And if it's a DPS that's pulling, now the healer is stressing out having to heal them because you refuse to tank because someone else pulled.

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And why should the tank/healer tolerate such behavior when the DPS roles do such a stunt?

They already have the least responsibility in a group and seemingly are allowed to get away with a lot of things, be it getting hit by avoidable attacks, not doing their AoE rotation in groups of 3+ or just do crappy DPS in general.
But sure, blame it on the tank. Same when you reach enrage in fights where apparently "A different tank would have made the difference under the same circumstances."

But never hold the DPS responsible.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

They already have the least responsibility in a group and seemingly are allowed to get away with a lot of things, be it getting hit by avoidable attacks

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It is so funny you'd say this about dps when tanks are the ones who are allowed to eat vuln snacks like popcorn.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

It is so funny you'd say this about dps when tanks are the ones who are allowed to eat vuln snacks like popcorn.

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Which they shouldn't, because when tanks (or healers) die, its a big mess.

When DPS die, "It's a inconvenience."

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Which they shouldn't, because when tanks (or healers) die, its a big mess.

When DPS die, "It's a inconvenience."

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yeah yeah, "the dps players are inferior to the big boss tank players" blah blah blah. i have heard this for so long as a tank player, and i just don't buy that i'm more important than the other people on my team

When enmity was a team effort, someone not being a team player was a pain in the arse and I wouldn't try especially hard to save them from problems of their own making.

Now it's not a team effort, I just have to roll my face across my keyboard, so I don't really care.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

yeah yeah, "the dps players are inferior to the big boss tank players" blah blah blah. i have heard this for so long as a tank player, and i just don't buy that i'm more important than the other people on my team

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Until a wall to wall pull gets bad and you get killed. And no amount of swiftcast rezzing will save the group from getting wiped.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Until a wall to wall pull gets bad and you get killed. And no amount of swiftcast rezzing will save the group from getting wiped.

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It's possible to save full w2w pulls where the tank dies. Difficult, but possible.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The sensible thing for the healer to do in this situation is avoid healing the DPS until a tank has aggro. It's much easier to recover by having to raise one DPS than taking that aggro, going splat, the rest of the party going splat, and then everyone having to waste time getting back to that point to continue on. There may be tanks who don't take aggro on purpose but there are also tanks not doing it on purpose. They may not see it in the rush, they may have been afk for a second, their cat was on fire, whatever. If we as healers don't see the tank react then we should expect action on our part is going to get unwanted aggro and possibly death and it will cause less strain on the party to just let the person die.

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That's not how aggro works. Healing the tank and not not healing the DPS still generates aggro on the mobs the DPS pulled. Healing affects all mobs's aggro. The moment the DPS goes splat, the aggro immediately transfers over to the healer because they would be the 2nd highest on the enmity list due to healing aggro as the tank has not established any threat to them. This effect only compounds when you remember how integral and numerous healers' AoE healing skills are to their healing output - even if the sole target that needs healing is the tank. Telling a healer to not use a healing tool only makes the healing job more difficult since you have to gimp your healing output, not make it easier.

The ideal situation if the DPS pulls is that the DPS runs to the tank so the aggro can be immediately transferred over and nothing bad happens to the party - which is good party cooperation.

The unideal situation is if the DPS ends up with aggro and doesn't adjust by running closer to the tank. The less than ideal result would be for the healer to adjust to the situation and heal them to prevent a wipe. It taxes more on healing resources, but ensures no one dies or risks dying.

The worst outcome is to ignore them because now the healer will suddenly be accumulating threat on all mobs from healing the tank after the DPS dies, and tank has established 0 aggro on those enemies. Now the overall party DPS is lowered and the healer's resources is still taxed because the healer will have to heal themselves in addition to the tank as well, so there's a higher risk of wiping.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It's possible to save full w2w pulls where the tank dies. Difficult, but possible.

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Was easier when tanks still had Ultimatum, but alas.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

And why should the tank/healer tolerate such behavior when the DPS roles do such a stunt?

They already have the least responsibility in a group and seemingly are allowed to get away with a lot of things, be it getting hit by avoidable attacks, not doing their AoE rotation in groups of 3+ or just do crappy DPS in general.
But sure, blame it on the tank. Same when you reach enrage in fights where apparently "A different tank would have made the difference under the same circumstances."

But never hold the DPS responsible.

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If you intentionally wipe the group because someone else pulled and you refused to tank, then yes, you are also to blame because you're being toxic as well.

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Originally Posted by Espon

If you intentionally wipe the group because someone else pulled and you refused to tank, then yes, you are also to blame because you're being toxic as well.

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Most tanks know their limits in most instances and situations in dungeons, so throwing a wrench in their plans is unnecessary.

Seen enough moments in Dzemael Darkhold alone where they think they are smart after the first boss with the toads, only to get aggro'd by one of them below.
They initially pull you away with their tongue and right into a group of them. If the fall damage didn't kill you first.