You do not need Kernel level access in order to cheat. Bungie wants kernel access in order to implement a system which can check what processes you have open in order to prevent you to cheat, because they couldn't figure out another way to stop it, but cheats exist in Windows and have allways existed. In fact, I think right now it would be harder to cheat on Linux than on Windows, considering software like CheatEngine exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
All this does not even matter here tho, because the goal of that Anti-cheat software is to prevent the offline user from cheating, so that their online interactions are legitimate. Here we are talking about an MMO which runs must of the logic and cheat detection on the server, it has nothing to do with the client. Whatever cheat you would do in the client SE would probably notice and ban your account as you are allways online, so again, Kernel access has nothing to do here.
And in any case the fact that linux kernel is open source does not mean you cannot make any privative kernel module, it's just if you wanted it to work on every linux distro, or in this case on any linux kernel you would have to either provide the source code, which Bungie obviously wouldn't do, and i totally support they don't (giving someone the source code of an anti-cheat software would make people figure out how to break it), you could also provide binaries for specific linux kernel versions and it would work without an issue, making no difference from Windows. So i totally don't see your point here at all.
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03-11-2022, 12:58 AMdarkvalefor
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03-11-2022, 12:58 AMDPZ2MSHTML, in all of its glory, is supported software, through 2029. It works perfectly fine on Windows 10 and Windows 11. There may be better technologies, but SE is under no contract with the Linux community to use them. Perhaps this solution doesn't cost anything to use? I know if they went to Java instead they'd be paying large amounts of money to Oracle for licensing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
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03-11-2022, 12:59 AMDPZ2You pay for a Windows PC license, not a Linux license. The fact that PC games work on Linux, unsupported by the game companies themselves, is a testament to the creativity of programmers in the Linux community. That does not excuse Linux user complaints to Square Enix for breaking their working system when introducing a feature in their Windows software. They are complaining to the wrong people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidria
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03-11-2022, 01:07 AMdarkvaleforPeople are just asking SquareEnix for support for a new platform (the Steam Deck) because they find it cool to be able to play the game on a handheld console. Maybe it doesn't seem like a good idea to you, but for some people it is. They are not depanding anything, but giving a suggestion, that SquareEnix is like you say, free to ignore.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
Many people give suggestions in these forums that go nowhere, and then some of those suggestions are listened to, that's what the forums are for anyway. If we get a clear response from SquareEnix saying there are no plans to support the Steam Deck, then, so be it, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't suggest opening a new market.
I mean, they added support for macOS, which except for high end Macs, the game doesn't run really well, and still they decided to add support for it, What's wrong asking for support for a new handheld console that looks promising?
Just stop seeing it as complaints and try to see it just as a suggestion. -
03-11-2022, 01:21 AMRansu
Maybe you should take it up with valve then? Valve are the ones that wanted to cut costs by using linux so the problem is with them, not square.
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03-11-2022, 01:26 AMcynical_baby
SE is the one forcing the new launcher on us. The game runs perfectly fine on linux with the old launcher; which you can still use - if you are not on steam. Only steam users got the middle finger from SE.
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03-11-2022, 01:37 AMRansuBut how is that squares problem? It sucks for linux users, but ya'll are the ones choosing to play on an unsupported OS. Clearly there was issues of fraud likely from key resellers and other security concerns so they felt the need to create changes for steam, and I'd put money down that the old launcher is probably going away for non steam users as well. Who knows when, but I guarantee its going away for the regular version as well if they are phasing it out for steam users.Quote:
Originally Posted by cynical_baby
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03-11-2022, 01:37 AMdarkvaleforI don't think cutting the costs is the reason for Valve using SteamOS. It's more related to the hardware and integration, and having more control over which processes run on the console. Windows runs a lot of tasks and background processes you don't have control of and could drain your battery if those processes fire at a bad time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
If Microsoft launches a Windows version optimized for handheld devices that is not based on ARM maybe it would be a prefered option for Valve, but for now that's what they have and that's what they work with. -
03-11-2022, 01:46 AMPaduduNah Valve just doesn't want to pay for the licensing lol. Windows is seemingly running fine on Steamdeck with some hiccups here and there, with no decreases as to performance as far as I'm aware of, looking through twitter. But this is looking solely through game emulation not through the Steam platform itself (Persona tbh lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by darkvalefor
edit: this isn't to poo on Linux people btw. I def think they should add support for it. Making a game unplayable through a launcher is ridiculous lol -
03-11-2022, 02:02 AMHereInPlainSightDXVK is now an important part of the Linux gaming equation. DirectX, you're correct, used to be a huge problem. DXVK is the reason why in some instances, Linux can have better performance than Windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
What if I told you that kernel-level anti-cheats are bad for everyone no matter the OS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
Oh don't worry, the bug report's active over there. Also, Valve didn't pick going to Linux for monetary reasons. They picked it because Microsoft indicated it was a good idea to explore alternatives years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
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03-11-2022, 02:33 AMoho
Damn how sad it is to come and find out that the game/launcher is completely broken when I just few days ago bought 6 month subscription after 30 day trial during which I was pleasantly surprised how flawlessly this game works on linux :(
I suppose I'll go back to eve to blow up some space ships until this issue is fixed -
03-11-2022, 03:08 AMAvidriaTechnically I pay for a Steam license, which is apparently different enough to saddle me with every asinine change SE decides to make to the Steam version of the game. From my perspective this is just yet another unecessary problem caused by an unecessary change that was poorly communicated and poorly implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
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03-11-2022, 03:19 AMcynical_baby
Btw: there is a semi fix now, but it requires lutris and the forbidden launcher to work. Playing on linux right now, but it's a bit of work to get it running if you have used just steam so far. Would be easier if we just got back the old launcher.
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03-11-2022, 03:21 AMLarirawielJepp. I use DXVK in Windows and the game runs way smoother. In Limsa i have 30 - 40% more fps. :) But it seems, that Nvidia GPUs do not perform very well with DXVK and Windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by HereInPlainSight
Cheers -
03-11-2022, 03:24 AMDPZ2Sigh. You are familiar enough with the background of why the changes were made in the first place so that you can determine that it was unnecessary? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidria
The code was written and released back in December, when 6.0 came out. An announcement was made about the use of the new code in early February. You're telling me not a single Linux user who depended on that code working attempted to run the new code and correct the problems they encountered back in February?
Yet another unnecessary problem? Please outline how you would resolve the issues SE is addressing. Heck, I'll bet you don't even know why they've gone this route in the first place. -
03-11-2022, 03:57 AMSieyaMI am curious what exactly the problem was that they are trying to address, since anyone using steam has to now use the steam launcher. I don't remember SE stating that they were trying to tackle a cheating problem or botting problem or anything with this change, just that it was going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
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03-11-2022, 05:15 AMAvidriaSE's stated reason for the changes they just made are to "enhance account security and bolster fraud prevention measures." That's itQuote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
That's all they've said. I am extremely curious as to how this accomplishes that, and what problems they were experiencing that they haven't communicated that mean that for some reason Steam users and Steam users only need to now be even more chained to Steam than they already were. Linux users getting hosed out of playing the game is just one part of the problems people have with this change overall. From a user standpoint, I'm seeing a lot of bad and not a lot of elaboration on the good.
If this specific piece of the change was purely to phase out the old launcher then I mean... Ok fair enough I guess. It sucks that this was an outcome of that, but I can understand that more.
Like I get Linux not being officially supported, ok, sure, but I don't get the frankly pretty bafflingly rude attitude some folks (not meaning you specifically) are taking with the people who are asking for this to be changed or reverted. -
03-11-2022, 05:19 AMMiaShinoMSHTML is on life support, it is as supported as point of sale implementations of Windows XP. Both MSHTML and Explorer are as dead as Windows 7, they will only receive the security updates moving forward. Using proprietary depreciated apis is terrible idea and one I should not have to explain why for.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
This has nothing to do with Linux. There are plenty of open source alternatives for web rendering. Heck, if we are speaking of Java there is open source implementation of that too.
Software developed to be compatible with Linux or even macOS, running on the Vulkan api will also be compatible with Windows. It is just silly to restrict the reach of your software by using proprietary garbage.
Wat? If you honestly believe people do not have direct kernal access on Windows you are smoking some seriously good stuffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
Gabe has made many many public statements about his apprehension towards Windows monopoly. His pushing of Linux has little to do with cost cutting and significantly more to do with how bloated and rigid Windows is. Competition is healthy plus most good for all of us. You do not want a complete os monopoly, trust a Mia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
Yup yup! Vulkan is far far far more efficient then DX11, would love to see low level api that is not DX12 become standard. Would allow games to be more easily compatible with other operating systems. Would also make porting to consoles much of the easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
Square has made plethora of asinine decisions that no self respecting software developer or system administrator would ever consider whilst still keeping their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
1.) Partnering with sketchy third party spatial audio platform during expansion launch.
2.) Excessive floating point rounding for audio emitters resulting in audio stuttering on several CPU architectures including Ryzen.
3.) Expanding on aforementioned above, needless number of audio channels with no way to manually configure flooding sound driver so badly it outright began dropping requests. Worse, would peg one or two cores. Still worse, due to unique design of core clusters on Ryzen would overwhelm infinity mesh bandwidth starving entire core clusters. Was bad enough to compromise ring bus.
4.) Configuring sound engine track separation improperly so that muting sound channels does not actually mute them. It instead issues stop play commands for every sound source while sound continues to play as background process. Muting tracks increases cpu load? Why you do this?
5.) Failing to account for special Unix characters when pulling names from Steam Api within their database.
6.) Not properly integrating steamapi in manner that would invalidate need to even require separate launcher in first place.
7.) Using Internet Explorer, software abandoned even by its creator.
8.) Even entertaining the idea that implementing client side code that willingly drops healthy connections every fifteen minutes was good idea to solve any problem with tcpip packet size overflow.
9.) Failure to understand dynamic load balancing and redundant routing resulting in nodes eating dirt, then dropping connections (90006/90002).
10.) Lack of out of bounds detection despite server tracking player position
11.) The entire method their database uses to store item/player data is borked forked and storked. Seriously, why are they storing erroneous data instead of uncoupling appearance data from items?
12.) Running character database with world server requiring character data to be moved each time instance is changed then copied back upon returning.
13.) Claiming to not understand how latency effects animation lock while simultaneously having the most bass akwards method of insuring sanity between client - server. This makes double weaving impossible on high ping. Modders fixed this already.
14.) Stating that your testers lack access to cpu architectures suffering from audio stutter problem when said architecture powers the fricken PS4.
I could keep going! No no seriously I could.
In recent interview with IGN Gabe the fricken ceo of fricken Valve gave your game free endorsement by stating that he and his son play. What is Square's response? Break compatibility with Linux and Steam Deck during one of the most successful hardware launches in recent history. Brilliant! Many apologies if this stings to hear. I love FF14 land but tis difficult to believe the company is not run by absolute trogs sometimes. -
03-11-2022, 05:21 AMDPZ2I would suggest using search terms such as "final fantasy xiv launcher change 6.0" or "ffxiv steam launcher" or, even better, look at the Lodestone announcement from 9 February 2022 (and game-oriented websites from the 10th through the 12th on the issue).Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
Probably a moot point because, TADA!, Valve just announced their Windows 10 driver for the Steam Deck (literally, like in the last hour or two). It can't be dual booted, which may still be a deal-breaker for a subset of Linux users, but ... "not ready yet" is what Valve said about dual boot. -
03-11-2022, 05:24 AMSove92
We live in a time where people are actively defending a completely unnecessary decision that cuts off Linux access to players, who previousky had it, because it "was never supported before anyway". You would expect it to be a good thing that the game can be accessed on Linux, even when not officially supported, but here we are.
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03-11-2022, 05:30 AMDPZ2Personally, I have never said it was a bad thing that the game can be accessed on Linux. I only point to the Linux developers for solutions to problems encountered, not Square Enix. It is not up to a company with no official support for a particular platform to 'fix' problems that are only encountered on said platform. And, if support is desired, to make that case to Square Enix, not just post in the FFXIV forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sove92
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03-11-2022, 05:34 AMYoukulmPeople usually post their ideas and suggestions on the forums all the time. That's what 90% of the OF is. The community team and the devs have openly stated they read the forums and even on occasion reply when needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
Is there a problem with people discussing this here for you? Is this not the proper channel? Do you have a direct E-mail to YoshiP you'd like to share?
I still don't understand the disparaging of Linux users on this forum, let alone this thread. It's always the same users doing it too lol. Show us on the doll where the bad penguin touched you. -
03-11-2022, 07:31 AMDistractionCatAs Diplopod says, I only meant that I'm worth as much of a player as you are, as anyone is. I was careful not to say we are entitled to it working: We are not. It's literally not supported, and we're on our own if anything goes wrong. But Square *cares* when they disrupt a player's experience, and, well, suddenly and without warning I couldn't play the game. I wanted that experience to be known. Everyone's life is better if we can understand each other. I wonder what your stake in this is.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa
It's not just linux either, this has disrupted a lot of peoples' game experience. For a while you couldn't even login if you had non-alphanumeric characters in your steam ID.
Ironically, there's a workaround now, and any linux+steam players that were using the vanilla launcher, from now on, won't be. From a pragmatic standpoint, that's a bad outcome for Square. The intent was to lock players into a particular login system, for security reasons, and it's been circumvented in mere days. -
03-11-2022, 08:28 AMDPZ2I've seen this phrase before "disparaging of Linux users". What does it mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Youkulm
It doesn't mean asking the Linux community to take responsibility in creating fixes to software that is emulating Windows.
It doesn't mean asking those who insist take Square Enix change their code in order support the Linux platform to step back and first prove to SE that it's in their financial interest to do so.
While it may be amusing for you to compare what's been written in the forums to questioning a child about rape, I don't find that particular meme amusing. It's not clever, it's not funny, and those who use it lose all of my respect. -
03-11-2022, 08:47 AMYoukulmYou completely ignored the point. Bravo. I'll repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
Since you seem to have an issue, ill elaborate: They're allowed to ask for help with problems. SE is allowed to say no. Just like with every other thing posted on the OF. Why does it bother you so much that they ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by Youkulm
As for disparaging, I wont belittle you with a definition, I'm sure you know what it means, but I'll explain why I said it: I see you on every active Linux thread shooting people down, being generally rude, asking for sources and not accepting them when given. It's fine that you don't like Linux, want it, or want to use it. No one is making you. Equal example as someone who doesn't use Linux myself: Just because I don't want a butt slider or care for one doesn't mean I go into all those threads and write a dissertation about why they can't and shouldn't have them.
This thread was 100% just here to point out a problem that Steam & Linux issues users would have. That's it. Yet people came running in to call them names, don't believe me? Go back and read the thread.
As for my joke, you don't have to like it and you don't have to respect me, I don't even know you. I just don't see the point in giving people a hard time for the OS they choose to play on. -
03-11-2022, 08:51 AMPaduduIDK they're probably referring to the people in this thread going "lol ok hipster stop using Linux", or "at least I'm still playing XIV!" whilst the steam Integration broke for a crapton of people, people calling Linux users entitled for wanting support, ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
I get that it's a small scale but people have been dunking on the Linux users in this thread lol -
03-11-2022, 08:54 AMSebazyGod that one was an incredible feat of bad design. In early ARR at peak there were points where simply zoning was a huge gamble with a multitude of horrible demises. You could get locked out and stuck in limbo for hours with login attempts simply booting you straight back out. Even rollbacks weren't uncommon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
Good times -
03-11-2022, 09:14 AMsharknadoAnd they are not changing it for the next 10 years of the game, as per their announcement we will get more plate slots and that's it...Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
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03-11-2022, 10:20 AMDPZ2Your point was subsumed in a bad interpretation of anything and everything I've written on the subject. There is no way you could come away with the idea that I am giving people a hard time based on the OS they are running. I don't call them names. And your interpretation of anything I've written here as "that you don't like Linux" is so way off the mark that I guess you don't get the point, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youkulm
Point out those posts here where you get the impression that I dislike Linux as an operating system (well, aside from the one post where I indicated that I personally wouldn't use it as the basis for a gaming platform, based on 30 years of experience with the OS.) Rather than have you go to all the trouble, here are all the mentions of Linux I've made in this particular thread:
2-15-2022 09:37 PM
Say that. Show how many Linux-platform gamers would purchase a license to run the game on Steam Deck, show SE that it makes financial sense for them to offer support for Yet Another Platform. Make that case.
Better yet: ask Steam to fix the issue on their platform that causes the problem.
3-08-2022 06:35 AM
Square Enix does not support running the game on the Linux operating system, nor on the new Steam Deck. If there is sufficient revenue that can be attributed to players on those platforms they could consider it in the future. Linux users would do well to provide evidence demonstrating the value of that revenue before complaining.
03-09-2022 7:31 PM
It's not 'hate' because it's Linux. It's intense dislike of the sense of entitlement in "SE must correct their <insert favorite swear word> code because we're important to their bottom line and it inconveniences us."
Tone the superior attitude down a bit, O Linux Godlings.
03-10-2022 09:58 PM
MSHTML, in all of its glory, is supported software, through 2029. It works perfectly fine on Windows 10 and Windows 11. There may be better technologies, but SE is under no contract with the Linux community to use them. Perhaps this solution doesn't cost anything to use? I know if they went to Java instead they'd be paying large amounts of money to Oracle for licensing.
03-10-2022 09:59 AM
You pay for a Windows PC license, not a Linux license. The fact that PC games work on Linux, unsupported by the game companies themselves, is a testament to the creativity of programmers in the Linux community. That does not excuse Linux user complaints to Square Enix for breaking their working system when introducing a feature in their Windows software. They are complaining to the wrong people.
I would suggest using search terms such as "final fantasy xiv launcher change 6.0" or "ffxiv steam launcher" or, even better, look at the Lodestone announcement from 9 February 2022 (and game-oriented websites from the 10th through the 12th on the issue).
03-10-2022 02:21 PM
Probably a moot point because, TADA!, Valve just announced their Windows 10 driver for the Steam Deck (literally, like in the last hour or two). It can't be dual booted, which may still be a deal-breaker for a subset of Linux users, but ... "not ready yet" is what Valve said about dual boot.
03-10-2022 2:30 PM
Personally, I have never said it was a bad thing that the game can be accessed on Linux. I only point to the Linux developers for solutions to problems encountered, not Square Enix. It is not up to a company with no official support for a particular platform to 'fix' problems that are only encountered on said platform. And, if support is desired, to make that case to Square Enix, not just post in the FFXIV forums. -
03-11-2022, 10:23 AMDPZ2Unfortunate. It was my threads to which the poster responded though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Padudu
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03-11-2022, 01:11 PMShibiYou are super duper invested in opposing this aren't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
Do you work for Microsoft per chance? -
03-11-2022, 03:53 PMRobynDaBank
The posts by DPZ2 are secretly an attempt to keep the thread bumped up with Linux users giving great reasons as to why SE needs to bump up its engineering.
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03-11-2022, 06:09 PMDistractionCatI don't even know where to begin with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
I have no problem with the new-launcher using MSHTML (except in that it's horribly insecure). The wine-gecko implementation of that is so good, it's missing all the RCE vulnerabilities, and it's missing the bugs needed to run the launcher. But if the launcher relies on bugs, and Microsoft decides to fix them, the launcher's going to break for all their users and that'd be a shame. So it makes more sense for Square to fix their code than for the wine-gecko folks to introduce vulnerabilities to their software. Especially since we're already talking about improving security in the launcher here.
Once Valve gets on top of order fulfillment, the number of "linux" players out there might pass the number of mac players. It'll be interesting to see how the deck changes the cold monetary equation you're so fond of.
Anyway this launcher issue, you don't think it affects you, but it does. I'm already back in the game, I'm not asking for workarounds for me. You, on the other hand, are stuck with... spaghetti. -
03-11-2022, 06:33 PMLarirawielSpaghetti bolognese is very tasty. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractionCat
Anyway, i guess, Micros~1 will keep the bugs because it will break the compatibility with some software. But i hope, SQEX will get rid of it. MSHTML is a source of many security vulnerabilities.
Cheers -
03-11-2022, 07:52 PMShibiThere goes another mouthful of coffee all over the screen, second today!Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
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03-11-2022, 09:31 PMDPZ2Opposing "this". What is "this" that I am opposing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibi
And no, I work as a systems engineer, and deal with Linux and other operating systems on a daily basis. Not Windows, though. I haven't had to do systems work on Windows since the early 2000s. -
03-12-2022, 01:22 AMMiaShinoas a systems engineerQuote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
as a systems engineer
as a systems engineer
Please tell me you also call your fellow employees "Linux Godlings" because that would slay me.
Microsoft is great at keeping the bugs around. Seems to be taking them foreeeever to work their mind around proper multicore scheduler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
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03-12-2022, 01:29 AMAdeacia
I'm not for or against playing the game on this OS, but if it's not supported then they are under no obligation to make sure you can keep playing using it. I doubt the change was to prevent it from working at least, probably just a side effect. As has already been said here, SE tries to make sure as many people as possible can play the game.
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03-12-2022, 03:57 AMWilford111You might be surprised at how fervent some fanboys can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibi
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03-12-2022, 08:18 PMShibiSome of them, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilford111
I'm pretty agnostic to operating system myself, the flavour of OS I use at any time is based on the task I am doing, it's about as unimportant to me as the brand of Benzine I buy, so I do sigh when I see their very one-eyed arguments.