The coming balance changes to jobs

I think they straight up hate the 3 jobs added in heavensward, ast, drk, and mch

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

is because they want to do MORE DPS.

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because there's nothing to heal in most content? at least sage allows me to to press 2 more buttons every now and then, but most if not all dungeons and trials are basically throwing your HoT/shield on the tank, DPS until an OGCD is needed, DPS some more, another OCGD or two, an AOE heal in case a raidwide happened or a DPS stood in bad and that's it - and this is already pretty damn boring

honestly, I don't know how one doesn't fall asleep playing like many 'healer mains' do
like, standing around and waiting for the tank to take 10% of damage so you can heal them, maybe throwing a DoT on a target or two, maybe even an AOE attack here and there, but 80% of the time basically doing nothing but overheal with 100% medica 2 uptime in addition to the ST healing
not only does this result in a longer run, said lack of DPS also usually results in attacks and mechanics that haven't been seen before, which could result in people making mistakes and thus requiring more heali- oh, I get it, that's the goal!

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Interesting, I'm also a healer main, I have all healers at 90, yet I disagree with you. As a healer I try to heal only when necessary. In some groups, there can be issues, I need to heal more than I should have to, no problem.. I prefer to 'always be casting" and that means that I'm normally DPSing more than healing (ahem, unless I screw up, in which case, well , healer adjust ASAP)

Some of the issues that I've noted, whether its MP management, of button bloat, or (prior to EW) an unresponsive fairy, have nothing whatsoever to my wanting to be a wannabe DPS. I also want more that a single DPS spell, SGE has been more fun for me, that doesn't mean that I don't heal people.

All of this to say that I very surprised to hear that someone who mains a healer would think that all of the feedback from healers just comes from people who want to bypass DF queues or the infamous "only DPS" healer boogeyman.

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It’s a fairly par for the course argument from the other side of the healer community in this game. It’s an old argument that has existed since HW—alongside the famous quotes about how the developers don’t design fights around healer damage…that released during the very tier that made healer DPS mandatory if you wanted to clear because the DPS checks were that tight.

But, like all silly arguments, it fails to actually acknowledge what players like you and I are actually asking for in favor of just spinning strawmans and irrelevant arguments.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

because there's nothing to heal in most content? at least sage allows me to to press 2 more buttons every now and then, but most if not all dungeons and trials are basically throwing your HoT/shield on the tank, DPS until an OGCD is needed, DPS some more, another OCGD or two, an AOE heal in case a raidwide happened or a DPS stood in bad and that's it - and this is already pretty damn boring

honestly, I don't know how one doesn't fall asleep playing like many 'healer mains' do
like, standing around and waiting for the tank to take 10% of damage so you can heal them, maybe throwing a DoT on a target or two, maybe even an AOE attack here and there, but 80% of the time basically doing nothing but overheal with 100% medica 2 uptime in addition to the ST healing
not only does this result in a longer run, said lack of DPS also usually results in attacks and mechanics that haven't been seen before, which could result in people making mistakes and thus requiring more heali- oh, I get it, that's the goal!

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I honestly once spent a day trying out the zero damage healer in DF. And you would be right: it was so incredibly boring. And in any of the 8-man or 24-man content, there was literally zero reason for me to be there. You already don’t need two healers in most of those, so to have one that is literally standing there doing nothing is even worse. I could have gone and made dinner and the party would have been 100% fine. I honestly don’t know how people couldn’t at least deal some damage.

When I first started this game, my friend who got me into it said “when you’re a healer, you can also use Malefic to deal some damage when you don’t have to heal. It’s better than standing around doing nothing because that’s really boring.” And she is extremely casual. Doesn’t raid. Plays only for the story. Maybe occasionally does some EXs for the mounts if she likes them. So she wasn’t even coming at me from a raiding perspective. I don’t know. Maybe because this is my first and only MMO I’ve played for any extended period of time, and that was the introduction to healing I got—maybe that skewed me to be more in favor of dealing damage during downtime? Couldn’t tell you. But I’ve never understood the anti-DPS mentality within the scope of this game where there’s so little active healing.

Wow. They will be buffing BLM dps? YAYYYYY! I play a BLM and I have to say, it's a joy compared to blaster casters in other games. They are right though. We are selfish dps. We don't buff. We don't heal. All we bring is "KABOOMS". Even bigger kabooms will be muchly appreciated but to be honest, I think we BLMs are already doing pretty big kabooms.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So no mention of healers whatsoever? Goes to show they don’t play their own game lmao.

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At this point healers should be moved to optional content

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

the majority of people unhappy with healing... is because they want to do MORE DPS. they dont want to queue as DPS, they want to queue as healers for faster times and only do DPS in dungeons.

so as a healer main, I cannot say there is a "valid reason" since my primary role is a healer, who can DPS on downtime. not as DPS who tosses out a heal or two if people complain about dying

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https://c.tenor.com/PG7TQGmTPoMAAAAC...-spiderman.gif

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So no mention of healers whatsoever? Goes to show they don’t play their own game lmao.

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Healers used to be much more complex, and as a result significantly fewer people even wanted to play on them.

To be sure, healer purists do not like how healer jobs work at the moment, but they need to understand the devs have healer where it is as a result of how we play the game.

The point is ultimately to keep queue times down, and to encourage as many people who might not have otherwise played a healer were it more complex.

I've said it again and again: FFXIV is the Super Smash Bros of MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Regarding healers. I remember that several years ago, YoshiP did say that they tune raids without healer DPS. It's just that in progression, people are generally tackling the content at near minimum item level, so healer dps helps the raid cross the minimum raid dps threshold.

If that policy remains unchanged, I don't see them ever adjust healers based just on the dps potential.

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If that is still their stance then it is absolute nonsense. It was proven several times last expansion that some savage bosses are mathematically impossible to kill without healer dps.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

God forbid your party is using strats that force you to miss gcds.

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I have already seen an Ilya strat for P4S in party finder... god help us all

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Healers used to be much more complex, and as a result significantly fewer people even wanted to play on them.

To be sure, healer purists do not like how healer jobs work at the moment, but they need to understand the devs have healer where it is as a result of how we play the game.

The point is ultimately to keep queue times down, and to encourage as many people who might not have otherwise played a healer were it more complex.

I've said it again and again: FFXIV is the Super Smash Bros of MMOs.

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The thing is, them seeing more people play healers could just be due to the influx of players. This all doesnt account for the blatant lies theyve told healers of fights actually requiring more healing. It's literally the same, arguably worse than in ShB. My question is though what does any of this have to do with them recognizing healers need some adjustments? Whm with its mp issues for example. Not to mention how does this change the fact healers are always on the short end of the stick. They got like what, a slide in the pre release job slideshow meanwhile dps and tanks got fully addressed?

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Originally Posted by IchiExorz

I was hoping to see some small SMN adjustments, some dps increases & maybe something to spice up the rotation a little.
There's still hope for a later patch anyway.

Not sure why MNK needs a buff though? And MNK busy? Last I heard MNK is even less busy now with less OGCDs. I haven't played MNK in EW yet though so idk.

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Try to play optimal with MNK and you will know what's is a busy jobs looks like

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I said healers are the least played role.As for how i know, outside of parse uploads, just look at the constant "healer in need" for roulettes for some basic understanding of it.

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Wait ... that's your citation? Man if this isn't a strawman argument I don't know what is. DF needs more tank/healers, in other news, do you know the sky is blue and water is wet? If anything, the fact these days you can occasionally sneak in a DPS for adventure in need show it's actually a lot better now than it's used to. In the past, seeing a DPS in need is like a once a year thing. Hell, I dare say if we ever see Adventure in Need skewl toward DPS, the game probably will be having serious problems.

I'm enjoying healing immensely this expack, so much that I now have 4 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 11 at 90, and soon another + 2. And I do all kind of content, I know you complain about healer a lot but I frankly don't see most of it, or not to the degree that you do. Sure if you ask me if there is anything I want to improve, I do. But I would look at them as a matter of inconvenience rather than as grievous problems.

"Pure DPS like SAM and BLM are a bit too stingy, so I'll adjust them in 6.08."

It's the opposite. ...They're the last two jobs that don't leech rDPS from their party and can therefore actually carry on their own merits. Why would every job need a raid buff whose sole purpose is to move numbers around? This will be no more than a light party nerf to BLM and SAM.

"I'm going to make some adjustments to jobs like SAM, BLM, and MNK that don't have enough firepower for how busy they are."

MNK's doing fine. SAM's doing within a fraction of a percent of fine, and BLM within a percent of fine. But, okay, I guess? At least they're among my favorite jobs. Good to be a FotM?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Wait ... that's your citation? Man if this isn't a strawman argument I don't know what is. DF needs more tank/healers, in other news, do you know the sky is blue and water is wet? If anything, the fact these days you can occasionally sneak in a DPS for adventure in need show it's actually a lot better now than it's used to. In the past, seeing a DPS in need is like a once a year thing.

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1. That's not what makes a strawman argument.

2. DPS have always rivaled Healers for the most common AiN for Alliance Roulettes (as to be expected when they take the place of tanks) and have occasionally been the AiN for Normal Raids, Trials, and Guildhests even during peak hours and, by late night, have been the AiN for any of them. That isn't new; on my Data Center, that portion of time has decreased and Healer AiN has increased in its place. On either DC I use, DPS AiN used to occur a dozen or so times per night, though briefly. Now it's truly rare.

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Hell, I dare say if we ever see Adventure in Need skewl toward DPS, the game probably will be having serious problems.

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Given that there will always be at least as many DPS slots as Tanks and Healers combined, this makes no sense.

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I'm enjoying healing immensely this expack, so much that I now have 4 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 11 at 90, and soon another + 2.

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And to assume that a majority of Healers must share your enjoyment, contrary to all larger scale evidence of polls, posts, and play rates, is fallacious.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Wait ... that's your citation? Man if this isn't a strawman argument I don't know what is. DF needs more tank/healers, in other news, do you know the sky is blue and water is wet? If anything, the fact these days you can occasionally sneak in a DPS for adventure in need show it's actually a lot better now than it's used to. In the past, seeing a DPS in need is like a once a year thing. Hell, I dare say if we ever see Adventure in Need skewl toward DPS, the game probably will be having serious problems.

I'm enjoying healing immensely this expack, so much that I now have 4 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 11 at 90, and soon another + 2. And I do all kind of content, I know you complain about healer a lot but I frankly don't see most of it, or not to the degree that you do. Sure if you ask me if there is anything I want to improve, I do. But I would look at them as a matter of inconvenience rather than as grievous problems.

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I said its one of them,since the person didn't want bancho data. Please read the whole thing next time. Yes DF needs more tanks and healers, aka the two roles coincidentally that seem to get far less attention from the devs. What a coincidence right? Good for you enjoying healer, i enjoy it somewhat too but it doesnt mean theres not problems with the way the role has been for the past few *expansions*, nor does it excuse the fact the devs have usually ignored healers in the past and continue to do so to this day.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Given that there will always be at least as many DPS slots as Tanks and Healers combined, this makes no sense.

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Given there are far more DPS classes than tank and heal combine, if there are not enough people playing them then yes I will consider there are issue there.

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And to assume that a majority of Healers must share your enjoyment, contrary to all larger scale evidence of polls, posts, and play rates, is fallacious.

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And ... do you realize that you comment is equally fallacious? So assume my experience the same as others is fallacious while assuming experience of others must be the same for everyone else is not? Just FYI, 20 years of social media teach me one thing: the loudest is not necessary the largest crow, despite how much they want to believe it themselves and project it into others.

Did I say my experience must be the same for everyone? Or it is wrong for me to state my own experience and say I don't say the same as the complainer? Or you're simply projecting?

And I did say it's not like I don't have a problem with the healer, I'm just ... how do I say it, not being half as dramatic as others?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Given there are far more DPS classes than tank and heal combine, if there are not enough people playing them then yes I will consider there are issue there.

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The number of classes within a role does not determine how many players are queued across any and all of those classes across that role.

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And ... do you realize that you comment is equally fallacious? So assume my experience the same as others is fallacious while assuming experience of others must be the same for everyone else is not?

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It's a matter of sample size. You are one among millions. The chance you represent the larger population is incredibly small.

They are some 200,000+ among millions. That does not guarantee accurate representation but it's a much better chance than the 1 in millions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's a matter of sample size. You are one among millions. The chance you represent the larger population is incredibly small.

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Again, you're projecting. Did I claim to represent anything? Can a man stating his own experience without it getting twisted into something larger?

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They are some 200,000+ among millions. That does not guarantee accurate representation but it's a much better chance than the 1 in millions.

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Not really. Sample size by itself is an indicative of ... nothingness if it's inherently bias. I teach statistic, and one of the very first thing my student is taught is to realize volunteering sampling is "inherently bias", especially if the question is not now about neutral subject. A lot of time, the only things the people response to the survey represent is themselves, and not an indicative of any population at large.

Something is wrong with "adventurer in need" anyway. If tank is in need and I queue as one, I still wait several minutes. If I then switch to healer, it pops instantly.

Honestly… I’m kind of shocked WHM didn’t get a buff or MP fix based on all the comments about it. Of all 4 healers that I constantly see people talk about from here, to Reddit, to Twitter, WHM is the ultimate meme healer atm. Nothing but complaints/jokes about how bad WHM is.

As for the other 3 healers…

I’m not shocked the other healers haven’t been touched since hardly anyone mentions them and when they do talk about other healers, they unfortunately get drown out by WHM mains asking for MP fixes and what not. This might be an interesting expansion if they keep ignoring WHM lol.

I honestly think DRG could do with a rework at this point. It really feels like it is lacking when compared to its peers. Movement especially is one area where DRG is objectively worse than other melee's. NIN has two charges of Shukuchi for precise movement, plus they get charges back upon using certain mudras. SAM has a backpedal and charge which both execute quickly, same with RPR (which also uses no gauge). MNK now has its new charges which can be used on both allies and enemies alike.
DRG, in comparison, does have Spineshatter dive, Dragonfire dive and Elusive jump for movement; but the first two have potency attached and thus are commonly used for damage, while elusive remains an annoying skill to use. DRG's skills also still have noticeable animation lock and feel laggy compared to its compatriots' skills.

Next how about damage reduction/healing skills. MNK gets Riddle of Earth to reduce damage and Mantra to help with healing. NIN gets Shade Shift to reduce damage. SAM gets Third Eye to reduce damage and get gauge at the same time. RPR gets Arcane Crest to reduce damage and then heal the entire party. DRG? Doesn't get anything.

Then we get to raid utility. DRG (and also NIN) has been doing less damage than a lot of other jobs due to their 'raid utility' which in previous expansions was probably justified. However, in it's current state this really isn't true anymore. Battle Litany has had its cooldown reduced from 3 minutes to 2 minutes - great! Except it's duration has been reduced from 20 seconds to 15 seconds to compensate. Now overall this is a slight buff (33% shorter cooldown but only 25% reduction), however a lot of other raid buffs are 20 seconds which means that Litany doesn't line up as well anymore. Not to mention that its benefit has always been hard to prove. Did a party member crit while Litany was up? If yes would they have critted anyway if Litany wasn't up? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lastly we get to my biggest grievance - Dragon Sight. This ability is honestly so, so poor. This ability gives the user and one other person a 5% damage buff if they stay within tether range. It is on a 2 minute cooldown. Lets compare it to some other 2 minute raid cooldowns shall we?

MNK - Brotherhood: Gives all party members a 5% damage buff for 15 seconds
RPR - Arcane Circle: Gives all party members a 3% damage buff for 20 seconds
SMN - Searing Light: Gives all party members a 3% damage buff for 30 seconds
RDM - Embolden: Gives all party members a 5% damage buff for 20 seconds

Both MNK and RPR and absolutely dominating DRG in DPS right now so how is it right that they also both offer better raid buffs as well? With both MNK and NIN receiving recent job overhauls, and with SAM and RPR just being newer jobs; DRG is really starting to feel clunky in comparison. You can tell this is still a 2.0 job that hasn't really had any modernizing and it is really starting to show now.

Drg and nin being weak under the pretense of utility is the biggest joke, mantra and arcane crest are utilities, smoke, goad and shade were utilities, trick attack and litany are only raid buffs, and almost all dps have their own version them, including reaper and monk, if anything reaper and monk should be doing less than them, not 700 rdps more.
Ninja and drg not even being mentioned during that talk only make me cringe, absolute clowns.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is, them seeing more people play healers could just be due to the influx of players. This all doesnt account for the blatant lies theyve told healers of fights actually requiring more healing. It's literally the same, arguably worse than in ShB. My question is though what does any of this have to do with them recognizing healers need some adjustments? Whm with its mp issues for example. Not to mention how does this change the fact healers are always on the short end of the stick. They got like what, a slide in the pre release job slideshow meanwhile dps and tanks got fully addressed?

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I’m not talking sheer numbers of players doing healer, I am talking percentage of the player base that not only level healer but actively play the role. Same deal with tanks really. SE wants about 25% regularly on healer or tank. Facts are people are less comfortable doing those jobs.

Like I did the final boss of EW as tank and we wiped because surprise didn’t know we needed to LB3 as tank. Or making mistakes as a healer is much more punishing than FPS. That kind of stuff is a deal breaking for people like my wife who wont even touch tank or healer.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I’m not talking sheer numbers of players doing healer, I am talking percentage of the player base that not only level healer but actively play the role. Same deal with tanks really. SE wants about 25% regularly on healer or tank. Facts are people are less comfortable doing those jobs.

Like I did the final boss of EW as tank and we wiped because surprise didn’t know we needed to LB3 as tank. Or making mistakes as a healer is much more punishing than FPS. That kind of stuff is a deal breaking for people like my wife who wont even touch tank or healer.

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I’d argue there’s equal consequences for all 3 roles on how well you’re playing them. Everyone has their own mechanics to do in savage for example, and all jobs need to know how to optimize dps to clear certain content etc. Irregardless though, none of that justifies the blatant lies and disregard for both roles. Even if there is a lesser amount of the playerbase playing them, they should be actively tested every expansion. It’s very obvious that is currently not the case.

I really dont understand why people are asking for so many nerfs.

Are you all so used to what the other MMORPG did that you guys want to continue suffering here? Really want to make the content harder than it already is? sheesh..

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I'm going to make some adjustments to jobs like SAM, BLM, and MNK that don't have enough firepower for how busy they are.

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Help. I'm... Dying... From laughing...

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

Lastly we get to my biggest grievance - Dragon Sight. This ability is honestly so, so poor. This ability gives the user and one other person a 5% damage buff if they stay within tether range. It is on a 2 minute cooldown. Lets compare it to some other 2 minute raid cooldowns shall we?

MNK - Brotherhood: Gives all party members a 5% damage buff for 15 seconds
RPR - Arcane Circle: Gives all party members a 3% damage buff for 20 seconds
SMN - Searing Light: Gives all party members a 3% damage buff for 30 seconds
RDM - Embolden: Gives all party members a 5% damage buff for 20 seconds

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Not a single one of these is relevant to how much rDPS a job should get, since they're already accounted for within that exact same metric. Moreover, how did you suddenly forget that DRG's Battle Litany, the very first offensive raid buff added to the game, exists and fits solidly on that list? Giving its offensive benefit through crit doesn't exclude it from that list; it just makes it also affect healing and scale better as the expansion goes on.

DRG, which has no non-rDPS utility, should be faintly ahead of Monk and Reaper (each of whom have non-rDPS utility) in rDPS, but not for the reasons you're presenting here. NIN, arguably, should be even higher (again, faintly), as its rDPS is yet more finnicky.

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

I really dont undertsand why people are asking for so many nerfs.

Are you all so used to what the other MMORPG did that you guys want to continue suffering here? Really want to make the content harder than it already is? sheesh

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I think veterans who play at a higher end feel that it's better to bring something like RPR down from its high steps to others' levels, rather than buff everything and create power creep. Unless they simultaneously also buff boss health pools or something.

I'm glad there won't be any nerfs. People need to lay down that mentality of hey I don't play reaper but I want it to be nerfed. The same thing happened in shadowbringers. Monk was doing more dps than samurai until they buffed Sam's numbers. They will do so again next patch. Glad to see paladin and dancer as well as machinist getting some love.

It's more or less "your job shouldn't do more damage then my job". All it is.

Anyone who has played MMOs for more than a year or two knows that there will always be FOTM (Flavour of the Month) classes, *always*

And they always change. I've lost track of the number of FOTMs I've leveled to cap over the last 20 years, then abandoned to play something else when they got nerfed.

Yes, please bring everyone up to reaper's level. I want to be able to solo the shadowbringers extremes before this expansion is out.

As a nin main happy with were nin is at for 90 I feel that they are in a really good place atm. But doing old ultimates they def need some love without their 90 rotation. Most people complaing just view the job in its current state now but wait a few weeks and see how hard their relative dps scales when groups are better geared.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

What makes you think number of oGCDs = hard? DRG has tons and tons of oGCD and is one of the easier Jobs.

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DRG is ultra busy in EW compared to SHB. I agree the base rotation is simple but you really have to be on point with your ogcds all the time to perform well - so it is not as easy as it seems.
Not to mention Animation lock during Jumps which makes it impossible to double weave them.

If i compare RPR to DRG - RPR is way easier to learn and not as busy as DRG and it Deals more DMG.

I still like DRG more than RPR but i think i will flex back and forth sometimes because i enjoy both jobs

Are CPM and APM metrics meaningful at all?

RDM definitely does a lot of casts but that's just because all our casts are short, but I feel it's got to be the most simplistic and easiest caster dps.

They better give NIN the old assassinate skill back as well, the NIN rotation isnt complete without it.

They need another variable in the balancing of classes or else this will always be an issue. A raid buff that makes everyone deal more damage is not utility.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Mmmm delicious that Reaper privilege. It won't be nerfed. Others will be buffed.

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They typically do not nerf classes unless they are broken in some way. They announced in HW they would only be buffing classes.

Rather than straight balance, I think they need more utility.

As is, my circle of friends opt to never bring a healer to any content we do unless it is required. A PLD's clemency/rdm heals are enough to get us through most trials/treasure hunts/etc. I would love to see more useful but not DPS related things.

BRD has performance. Ninja has the stealth ability (which should be identical to the DoL jobs; no speed loss).
I would like healers to get Protect back, so there's a reason to bring them to other content (straight damage reduction). Or give them re-raise that sticks even though you change jobs (for those "oops I died in BFE" moments)

There's been multiple translations of this piece separately, I'll sum them up.

BLM/SAM confirmed getting buffed
PLD and MNK highly likely to get a buff
DNC likely to get a buff to its own damage rather than party damage
RPR not being nerfed
DRG is a candidate for buff

Explicit mention of "just because I didn't say your job, does not mean it won't get adjusted and we will definately look into adjusting them based on feedback given

Of course, since we know the devs do not read the official forums beyond the dps pages, drk's and healers will need to deflate their hopes again for any meaningful adjustments.

I am a dirty casual that plays the game the best she can and understands, and I don't play healer, except WHM for hunts and funsies with trusts. But I was very surprised last night when I decided to level my 80 WHM doing some shared fates in EW. Since they were mostly adds fates, I was using mostly assize, holy, asylum and medica II refresh. I never had to rez anyone. I had lucid dreaming, thin air and all that up. But I had to drink ether bottles regularly to fill up mp. That had never happened to me before, so either I am missing something, or yes, WHM has a sudden mp issue...