The MSQ Endwalker Trial Bosses are WAY too hard for newer players to FFXIV

If anything they are way too easy. Imagine single player Final Fantasy with zero challenge? Yeah that's what FFXIV is basically during the MSQ

I remember when Nidhogg was "impossible for new players!!!!" lol

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

You're misunderstanding me. It's not A or B, it's A and B. Easy for story-mode, harder for the other modes.

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What 'Other mode'? The only other 'other mode' is Extreme, there is no 'harder than Normal but easier than Extreme' mode. Normal is what's used in roulettes, which I very much enjoy doing on a daily basis along with a decent chunk of FFXIV's playerbase.

And before you suggest the introduction of a 3rd 'middle ground' difficulty, doing so would result in monstrous queues for MSQ Trials given that absolutely no one would be doing them outside people going through the MSQ itself.

Nah, personally I'd have a proper story mode with "skip to cut scene" button.

Anyone who finds the normal trials hard would be better off playing wizard 101. No skill or effort needed to beat bosses in that game.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

I purchased story skip because I simply do not care for the story at all. It’s just not for me after I tried listening to ARR. There’s nothing wrong with players who don’t like the story to buy the story skip because after all, that’s why it’s there.

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Isn't that the same person who is now here saying that the content is too hard for their "friends"?

I suspect this thread is just bait.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Nah, personally I'd have a proper story mode with "skip to cut scene" button.

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You already have that. It's called YouTube and it doesn't cost a subscription fee.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Nah, personally I'd have a proper story mode with "skip to cut scene" button.

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Ah, now it makes sense, you're just trolling. Another one to feed the Ignore List. It was getting hungry.

No they're not.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Isn't that the same person who is now here saying that the content is too hard for their "friends"?

I suspect this thread is just bait.

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Probably not. We seem to get a thread like this any time the MSQ has content that isn't a tank and spank.

No their are not. In this game everything its easy after beating it for first time (Except ultimate/etc).

The amount of grind and time you spend from ARR->HW->SB->SHB-> EW its A LOT , probably months if you don't skip and do everything normally. How then people are not familiar with the game mechanics after 100-300 hours of playtime?.

Stunning.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Nah, personally I'd have a proper story mode with "skip to cut scene" button.

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So you don't want to play a game, you want to watch a movie.

The only issue I had with the Trials was that you couldn't use trusts for the first trial. Being late to the party meant everyone just drug me around instead of letting me learn the fight, and I had no alternative if I didn't want that. Letting us use trusts if we still wanted that blind experience would be nice.
I know they're frustrated because they've done the fight multiple times and are doing it on roulettes now, but it's just as frustrating to be rescued around and have people type the solutions to the mechanics in chat when you don't want it.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

No their are not. In this game everything its easy after beating it for first time (Except ultimate/etc).

The amount of grind and time you spend from ARR->HW->SB->SHB-> EW its A LOT , probably months if you don't skip and do everything normally. How then people are not familiar with the game mechanics after 100-300 hours of playtime?.

Stunning.

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Definitely has absolutely nothing to do with the simple fact those 100-300 hours of playtime is almost entirely story related, and definitely, absolutely nothing to do with only a few of the encounters actually teaching something that would be beyond dodging AoEs, and also totally nothing to do with the fact that many of these encounters that would otherwise drill something in just simply now being a tank and spank. What, with them being outdated, and with item level doing its thing.

Definitely nothing to do with these, whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Definitely has absolutely nothing to do with the simple fact those 100-300 hours of playtime is almost entirely story related, and definitely, absolutely nothing to do with only a few of the encounters actually teaching something that would be beyond dodging AoEs, and also totally nothing to do with the fact that many of these encounters that would otherwise drill something in just simply now being a tank and spank. What, with them being outdated, and with item level doing its thing.

Definitely nothing to do with these, whatsoever.

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Disingenuous. All the mechanics in the EW Trials, barring very few, are present all throughout the leveling experience on dungeon bosses and other trials.

AOE markers, Stack markers, Multi-hit stacks, flare markers, group based gathers to avoid confusion, delayed fire line aoe's, esuna debuffs, the list goes on and on and on.

If one refuses to learn these mechanics after being exposed to them throughout the course of the entire MSQ, and gets corpse-dragged while cleaning the floor over, and over, and over, that is on THEM that they refused to learn and just wanted a carry. By the time a player reaches EW Trial #1, the only somewhat new mechanic present there is the Starfall mechanic. New enough that it throws players for a loop the first time. Literally everything else in the fight has been seen before and done countless times.

It's not that hard. You only need one person to know where to stand, then everyone is safe!

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

Disingenuous. All the mechanics in the EW Trials, barring very few, are present all throughout the leveling experience on dungeon bosses and other trials.

AOE markers, Stack markers, Multi-hit stacks, flare markers, group based gathers to avoid confusion, delayed fire line aoe's, esuna debuffs, the list goes on and on and on.

If one refuses to learn these mechanics after being exposed to them throughout the course of the entire MSQ, and gets corpse-dragged while cleaning the floor over, and over, and over, that is on THEM that they refused to learn and just wanted a carry. By the time a player reaches EW Trial #1, the only somewhat new mechanic present there is the Starfall mechanic. New enough that it throws players for a loop the first time. Literally everything else in the fight has been seen before and done countless times.

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Yes it is a culmination of things, many of those trials that would have presented a challenge previously, or at least one enough for you to get meaningful learning are not really the case now, both with item level inflation, and stat reworks (e.g. Accuracy to Dhit) practically rendered the difficulty of anything pre-SB moot. Many of the trials, 8-man or 24-man normal mode content just falls over like a wet noodle thanks to this.

Similarly the case with every other trial at endgame, when you do them at the time of relevance the experience is entirely different than doing them several months later when gear practically skips several parts of any story-related encounter. If you're a new player the chances of having a similar experience to someone experienced enough to have done every encounter several times over is just not happening, unless they actively go out of their way to do raids etc etc. Shinryu, used to be and still was a threat When it was relevant and where nobody had gear in excess of 2* crafted. Now fast forward where it is a given that everyone has at least i370 gear, and potentially i400. The same level of threat just simply isn't there, so whether you pay attention to the mechanics or not is of no consequence because they aren't lethal enough. Hades now follows the same doom, and this applies to all previous 8-man normal mode raid encounters.

The mechanics are there, but if people are skipping them, or if people outgear all the encounters so significantly then the mechanics become less consequential to players, which is a stark contrast to a fresh expansion/patch launch where people are practically only minimally geared.

See above, many players aren't getting corpse dragged, simply by virtue of being excessively geared. Besides, my argument never was that these were not previously present. My argument was that it is a misrepresentation to imply that all 100-300 hours of that story is centred around combat, because it isn't. Nor is the experience the same when you take into account how item-level carries you on anything 50/60/70/80 content. Not to mentioned the argument of this thread was trials, not dungeons.

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

By the time a player reaches EW Trial #1, the only somewhat new mechanic present there is the Starfall mechanic. New enough that it throws players for a loop the first time. Literally everything else in the fight has been seen before and done countless times.

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Even that's somewhat like the second boss in Mt Gulg, just less obvious about where to look to see the safe spots.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

But then you're not reading this thread. Several people complained that it's too hard.

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the problem lies with the people, not the difficulty of the trial

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Are we though?
The "big bad" fell at lvl 83, and the true last boss was a little girl with funky hair style.

All this only matters if people get their clears, and that includes people who go into a trial, prepare to just die and lay there until it's over, because they can't be arsed to do the mechanics. With so many players, there are bound to be groups of players for whom the difficulty level isn't fitting, but you can make things easy enough for "bad" players to get through. There are additional difficulties for the "good" players.

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Except now you've made the experience worse for those "good players" because we, apparently, have to coddle people who can't be bothered to learn how mechanics work. Despite being a new player back in Heavensward who took ten months to even complete the MSQ, I was still quite disappointed that the supposedly all powerful Thordan—a boss based on the iconic Knights of Round summon—was such a laughable chump players ignored every single mechanic, stood in everything and just slaughtered him. Even I just stood in his AoEs once I realized they weren't actually going to kill me. While it didn't ruin my enjoyment of Heavensward, it absolutely cheapened the climax. Meanwhile, I used to love getting Shinryu because he actually felt threatening for a story boss. Likewise, I like seeing that Zodiark and Hydaelyn aren't total pushovers in the story. Relatively speaking, that is.

This game already goes far out of its way to down everything down to super easy mode. We don't need literally every non-Savage content to give out participation ribbons.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except now you've made the experience worse for those "good players" because we, apparently, have to coddle people who can't be bothered to learn how mechanics work. Despite being a new player back in Heavensward who took ten months to even complete the MSQ, I was still quite disappointed that the supposedly all powerful Thordan—a boss based on the iconic Knights of Round summon—was such a laughable chump players ignored every single mechanic, stood in everything and just slaughtered him. Even I just stood in his AoEs once I realized they weren't actually going to kill me. While it didn't ruin my enjoyment of Heavensward, it absolutely cheapened the climax. Meanwhile, I used to love getting Shinryu because he actually felt threatening for a story boss. Likewise, I like seeing that Zodiark and Hydaelyn aren't total pushovers in the story. Relatively speaking, that is.

This game already goes far out of its way to down everything down to super easy mode. We don't need literally every non-Savage content to give out participation ribbons.

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Completely. I want the msq to be “easy” as the 83 and 89 trials are now, not “free” as anticlimactic as the fight with Thordan/Ultima is.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Zodiark is easy. Just follow the player marked with a triangle.

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I'm going to throw my hat in to say that this is exactly why so many people find the trial, and similar trials over the years, hard. They aren't learning the mechanics but, instead, rely on following someone who already has (or is using an addon to tell them what to do) without actually adapting to the tells and processing the information for themselves. So when people wind up in groups where there isn't a guide, then whoops it's time to wipe.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Even that's somewhat like the second boss in Mt Gulg, just less obvious about where to look to see the safe spots.

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There even a giant line to show you where to look at

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Originally Posted by NishaSetsuya

There even a giant line to show you where to look at

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I will admit I did not know WTF that line was supposed to mean at first, I just assumed it was where an aoe was coming from or maybe a knockback or something lmfao. Seems obvious now given the, y'know, arrows pointing outward buuuut... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But... yeah. I still don't think this fight was any more difficult than any other story trial has been. It just seems like it cause everything else is old content everybody overgears by now, and that "old" players have been doing in roulettes for ages and (theoretically) know pretty well already.

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Originally Posted by NishaSetsuya

There even a giant line to show you where to look at

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It, shamefully, took me three wipes to realize how the stars falling related to the patterns on the floor, but given that all but one or two people in the group were new I'm just glad I wasn't the only one who was that dumb. Once we cottoned on to it and shared with one another what we thought we were supposed to do, it went way smoother and we kicked his ass the next time.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

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This is the same argument that was used for Final Steps of Faith. Royal Menagerie. Castrum Fluminis. The Dancing Plague. The Dying Gasp. The trials aren’t hard—they just aren’t Thordan normal mode where you can turn off your brain and win. Some may take a couple tries to understand the mechanics, and that’s fine. I think it’s quite normal for the average player to be blinded and awed by the spectacle of the fight the first time, and not pick up on all the mechanics. But they aren’t hard or extreme or impossible in any way. I don’t want to see them get any easier. I’d rather the “big bad trial bosses” actually feel like “big bad trial bosses” and not just glorified dungeon bosses with a 10-minute fight.

I’m also astounded at the notion that any of these mechanics are “savage-level” mechanics. It’s extremely obvious that the people saying this have never set a foot into a Savage fight if you think Zodiark NM has “savage-level” mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

It took them a while to nerf the final trial in Stormblood and the outcry on that one's difficulty was a lot more prevalent than what I'm seeing about EW.

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As far as I’m aware, Shinryu was never nerfed. He was just eventually outgeared. Same with Hades. Which will happen to all of the end of the expansion trial for EW. But they never nerfed Shinryu’s damage or mechanics. His mechanics weren’t even that hard—most were things that could be seen in ARR trials or in a dungeon (e.g., the chains were in The Vault).

But they aren't for newer players. They're for players who have already leveled all the way up to 80+. You're no longer a sprout once you get into Endwalker. How do you get all the way to 80 and not know even the basic mechanic indicators that are used in almost every fight?

Not really "new" anymore if you're doing Endwalker MSQ, but ok.

If you are doing 80+ level content, and expecting an "easy" brain dead experience, I'm sorry but I think you have a rather skewed and uninformed opinion. Granted I have known and played with players that absolutely are that smooth brain that they cannot possible handle 3 things to look at and critically think at the same time.

I do not however believe the game should be cattered to these individuals though and I think it's an epic backstep if it was any further. Steps of Faith was the biggest misstep SE made, by nerfing the overall encounter and the dragonkiller mechanic to a verified moving Striking Dummy.

If you have gotten to level 80+ and still not gotten a grasp of the game, I don't think the problem is the trials.

Mt Gulag at level 79 had the same mechanic as Zodiark, nice try though. If you can't make the comparison of reading stars in the sky as a location compared to a pancake maker, that's on you.

The second trial normal mode is about on par in difficulty with Shiva extreme when it was new. Story mode fights have come a long way in difficulty since ARR.

Very similar too where you have to watch which weapons she switches to know which attack is coming.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

The second trial normal mode is about on par in difficulty with Shiva extreme when it was new. Story mode fights have come a long way in difficulty since ARR.

Very similar too where you have to watch which weapons she switches to know which attack is coming.

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https://c.tenor.com/aGR6OVyAVQsAAAAd...-harder-oh.gif

No it isn't.

Shiva EX, while among the easiest EX fights of ARR, is still quite a step above the second trial boss of normal. First and foremost, she absolutely shredded tanks back then. Which certainly isn't the case for any of the Endwalker normal modes. None of the story fights even come remotely close to EX difficulty.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

https://c.tenor.com/aGR6OVyAVQsAAAAd...-harder-oh.gif

No it isn't.

Shiva EX, while among the easiest EX fights of ARR, is still quite a step above the second trial boss of normal. First and foremost, she absolutely shredded tanks back then. Which certainly isn't the case for any of the Endwalker normal modes. None of the story fights even come remotely close to EX difficulty.

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Not in terms of healing output and needing to tank swap but in terms of awareness to know which attack is coming and the damage dealt to non tanks. She can kill non tanks very easy if you screw up. Shiva didn't even have a instant death wall. Just the freeze wall. Which was forgiving even if you screwed up the stand still part. If you get hit by any of her weapon attacks with 1 vul stack as a dps/healer, you're pretty much dead. If you stand in the wrong spot for her spear attack, she can kill you instantly even at 0 stacks.

If you are struggling: ask your group for help.

Hell a knowledgeable player can mark themselves and you can follow them around and avoid every mechanic without knowing anything about the fights. Only thing you might have to worry about is remembering to let dawn's mantle in hydaelyn resolve before spreading.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Not in terms of healing output and needing to tank swap but in terms of awareness to know which attack is coming and the damage dealt to non tanks. She can kill non tanks very easy if you screw up. Shiva didn't even have a instant death wall. Just the freeze wall. Which was forgiving even if you screwed up the stand still part.

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How hard is Red In Green Out Blue Corners for Trial #2 to understand? Not only that, but Trial #2 shouldn't even be in this discussion, because you can use the Trust to do it. That makes it literally a cakewalk. Pick a scion and just follow them.

When I think new players, I don’t think literally the tail end of the 4th expansion. Get a grip

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

How hard is Red In Green Out Blue Corners for Trial #2 to understand? Not only that, but Trial #2 shouldn't even be in this discussion, because you can use the Trust to do it. That makes it literally a cakewalk. Pick a scion and just follow them.

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I never said it was hard. I said it was about on par with Shiva extreme. Which is considered one of the easiest extremes.

I also don't get why everybody goes by the color. Why not go by the weapon buff on her bar? It's always visible.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I never said it was hard. I said it was about on par with Shiva extreme. Which is considered one of the easiest extremes.

I also don't get why everybody goes by the color. Why not go by the weapon buff on her bar? It's always visible.

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Color indicators are larger, rotate around her model, and easier to see versus searching for a debuff, in my opinion.

I still wouldn’t put the level 89 normal mode trial on par with any Extreme trial. No matter how easy they were on release. Because it simply isn’t anywhere near Extreme levels of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

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If you played through all the 1-90 content you got repeatedly trained for every mechanic you see by the end. If you somehow didn't learn anything from all of that... the game is not and should not be tuned for you - but keep trying and you will get there.

If you bought a skip - the game is not and never should be tuned for skippers.