Black Mage - the solution for everything?

Above is why we dont invite random melee DPSs

http://i.imgur.com/TAjjz.jpg

sum'n like dat...

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

Just sounds weird to me. I heal anyone who needs healing. I don't sit there and hoard my MP.
As a healer I try my best to keep the whole party alive. If I fail I fail, but I always try my best.

Anyways, on topic..
I don't like the whole stacking jobs thing because it becomes hard to get a group on my job of choice.
I'm not going to go level a new job that's the current favourite for the newest battle, just to get in.
I think SE said they're already looking into balancing things though. Hopefully things improve.

Edit: It's actually not just people being left out for not having the favoured job that bothers me, but.. even as a BLM I don't want to join a full party of BLMs.. I don't want stuff handed to me. I want a challenge.

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Basically, WHMs on XIV only heal the tank and not anyone else since lord knows only tanks need healing. People say a lot of FFXI mentality carried over into XIV..in XI healers actually healed people who were dying in that game lol.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Basically, WHMs on XIV only heal the tank and not anyone else since lord knows only tanks need healing. People say a lot of FFXI mentality carried over into XIV..in XI healers actually healed people who were dying in that game lol.

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Lets just stop making generalizations...

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

Just sounds weird to me. I heal anyone who needs healing. I don't sit there and hoard my MP.

As a healer I try my best to keep the whole party alive. If I fail I fail, but I always try my best.

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For a while I've been trying to figure out why it's such a huge issue in the FF MMO's and not anywhere else. Even with slow MP recovery healers in Lineage II never complained about healing party members. WoW has the whole MP5 mechanic and plenty of mana refunds through talents (some specs have the "if a spell crits you get 20% of the mana spent back" thing, for example) so that endurance is tested over long fights but is never a problem in the short term.

XI encouraged utsusemi tanking and everyone subbing NIN because shadows = healer doesn't have to use MP to heal. It's weird, isn't it?

Regen. Do you have it? Really its such a low cost spell and with the right gear its just downright sexy like in XI. The real issue is drgs/mnk/wars who fight in battles like ifirt with constant AoE or fight in moogle and constantly get caught in pomflare, that's the issue. Healers can heal competent dds that aren't mp sinks.....

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Originally Posted by Arksniper

Regen. Do you have it? Really its such a low cost spell and with the right gear its just downright sexy like in XI. The real issue is drgs/mnk/wars who fight in battles like ifirt with constant AoE or fight in moogle and constantly get caught in pomflare, that's the issue. Healers can heal competent dds that aren't mp sinks.....

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DRGs don't get pelted by seer constantly, unless you suck that is.

If you WHM is not casting regen on everyone when they took damage, you need a new WHM. A good white mage should keep protect and stoneskin on non-tanks at all times possible. Regen should be put on someone as soon as the white can spare a moment. If you have running with two white mages, there really is no excuse.

Second, if you have a paladin as tank, stop laughing they can tank, divine veil should be put up shortly after an AoE damage happens. This also helps the melee stay in the fight, since both the regens stack.

BLM thread becomes WHM discussion....hmm

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Originally Posted by Matsume

BLM thread becomes WHM discussion....hmm

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Should get back on track.
Couldn't let we stack BLMs due to WHMs be a valid point.

BLMs are still easy mode problem solvent. They take the least skill to do consistent damage from a save distance.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Aye its true tho a lot of whm's are stuck in the days of, Don't you have cnj 50? equip cure 3 and cure your self!!!

Also While i don't like the content i think they should force locked jobs in raids like they do in Hamlet defense. I also think a reason behind all the stacking is the constant flow of 8 man content i think once we have more content with like 16 ppl this will change.

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No classes/jobs shouldn't be locked in the majority of content...the whole point of the Armory system is that you can swap out skills/classes/jobs on the fly. Having your best abilities on longer cooldowns etc. is enough to help with this, but the reality is that people who bothered to level everything to cap (I am not one of them) should be rewarded for that. So while I see where you're coming from, it's not practical in a game that's main selling point is flexability.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

No classes/jobs shouldn't be locked in the majority of content...the whole point of the Armory system is that you can swap out skills/classes/jobs on the fly. Having your best abilities on longer cooldowns etc. is enough to help with this, but the reality is that people who bothered to level everything to cap (I am not one of them) should be rewarded for that. So while I see where you're coming from, it's not practical in a game that's main selling point is flexability.

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I really don't think that is the intention... think about it, I think being able to swap on the fly is convenient but I don't want it to become necessary. Lets look at FFXI and the macro system. At first it was a convenient mechanic to switch gear then look at how it spiraled out of control. Being able to swap classes on the fly can encourage stacking and leveling classes you don't necessarily like because it will become expected. imagine taking a balanced pt through a dungeon then everyone except one tanking being required to go to blm for boss. Doesn't that sound pretty broken?

I hate to say it bu if you give people a step they will try their hardest to take a mile from it.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

In the good old days of classes, I have been told "ALL DDs must have second wind and cure set DDs need to be self sufficiant because the healer has to focus on the tank" now I can understand this to some degree, if a powerful AoE has just happened, DDs second wind and possibly a cure to get enough HP to live and save the mages MP, but the funny thing is, paticurlaly on Ifrit (the only content I really got to play LNC on) I would be healing myself that much, whether its alot of vulcan bursts, or while I was sorting my position out to avoid sears (getting hit by a few until my position was right) I could be riding my second wind recast and running out of MP to heal myself, but when I am at 1/2 HP because of some server lag on a bad timed eruption, I would not get one heal while the nails were up, to have a chance at surviving Hellfire, this is when second wind is on recast and cure on melees while being buffed now, still isn't enough to live.

After this its my fault I died because I should have healed myself.

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Can you stop picking on White Mages? First off, you just said 'I had to use my MP/Second Wind because I didn't avoid the moves other DD's were avoiding. So YOU weren't playing correctly...how is that anyone else's in the party's fault, including the WHM. Basically, with the exception of Hellfire, if the DD's need more than AOE+Regen to keep their HP's topped off, they are not avoiding all the damage they should be. Does it comfort you at all to know that even as a WHM I only heal myself with Second Wind 90% of the time? Because just like DD's if a WHM is taking damage usually it's because either they did something very wrong, were in the wrong spot or the party really screwed up.

Also, stop whining that as a DD you had to learn self-healing abilities as a DD. So did the tanks,blms,ranged and healers. WE ALL learned Second Wind. We all also learned Sentinel...and Rampart. Mages learned -emn abilities too like Chameleon. That was how the class system worked....the whole point was you could use cross abilities.

Maybe if you tried playing as a WHM/CNJ in some of these fights, you'd understand it's not that they don't want to heal the other party members, but that they are constantly either riding red hate levels or watching the tank go from 100% to 60% health. Also, the mages are running and avoiding Plumes and Erruptions too... there are moments where they can't heal because they might need to run (due to potential animation lock). This has gotten a little better with 'running now interrupts spell casting' but running will only interrupt you if you are near the beginning of the cast...otherwise, you can still get locked and die if not careful.

...but yeah, it's totally because Healers don't wanna heal...that's why you didn't get a cure.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

I really don't think that is the intention... think about it, I think being able to swap on the fly is convenient but I don't want it to become necessary. Lets look at FFXI and the macro system. At first it was a convenient mechanic to switch gear then look at how it spiraled out of control. Being able to swap classes on the fly can encourage stacking and leveling classes you don't necessarily like because it will become expected. imagine taking a balanced pt through a dungeon then everyone except one tanking being required to go to blm for boss. Doesn't that sound pretty broken?

I hate to say it bu if you give people a step they will try their hardest to take a mile from it.

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You might not like it, but it IS the intent of the game...heck, it how the game was marketed. You can switch out your class with the push of a button...

Also, it's a MMO people will ALWAYS try to find the best, most efficient way to do something, and then do that. The whole Thread is in response to our 'BLM onry' phase the game is currently in. People are already class stacking...not letting people switch out classes won't prevent this...as a matter of fact, it'll make things worse. If people can't switch in Cutters then they WILL go all BLM, because it is safer on Princess and CHimera than other DDs (WAR burn would no longer be popular b/c you wouldn't be able to switch for Chimmy). In veil same thing, BLM will do the whole Dungeon because it is more effective overall than another class would be at killing the 2 nm's safely. (again, I'm not saying I personally agree with BLM must burn everything, I'm stating why locking classes won't help).

And really, while a couple dungeons/etc that will reward balanced parties etc (like hamlets) are nice, it's fun to be able to choose how you do a battle too. I like being able to have the option of doing DH with 4 highly skilled players who can swap between 3-4 classes effictively through the whole dungeon just as much as the LOL's of going in as 7whm's and a PLD. So yes, I hope they add a couple instances that force you to play as classes not jobs, or have every job represented or give bonuses for bringing certain classes, but that isn't the solution for everthing. Also you DO see the irony that this is in and of itself 'class stacking' right? Like what if I like running as a Monk, but the party already has a monk and needs a Bard to enter...guess I have to go Bard even though I wanted to be a monk. Forcing classes/locking players into classes solves nothing, it just creates different problems.

SE can't possibly set up a MMO that will always allow everyone to be optimal on their chosen class/job for every fight and make it an entertaining game. Therefore, every battle, mob, etc will have an exploit. Heck, even crafters know if they level crafts x,y, and z for certain abilities they can HQ easier on their main craft...which is the Only craft they ever intended leveling.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

You might not like it, but it IS the intent of the game...heck, it how the game was marketed. You can switch out your class with the push of a button...

Also, it's a MMO people will ALWAYS try to find the best, most efficient way to do something, and then do that. The whole Thread is in response to our 'BLM onry' phase the game is currently in. People are already class stacking...not letting people switch out classes won't prevent this...as a matter of fact, it'll make things worse. If people can't switch in Cutters then they WILL go all BLM, because it is safer on Princess and CHimera than other DDs (WAR burn would no longer be popular b/c you wouldn't be able to switch for Chimmy). In veil same thing, BLM will do the whole Dungeon because it is more effective overall than another class would be at killing the 2 nm's safely. (again, I'm not saying I personally agree with BLM must burn everything, I'm stating why locking classes won't help).

And really, while a couple dungeons/etc that will reward balanced parties etc (like hamlets) are nice, it's fun to be able to choose how you do a battle too. I like being able to have the option of doing DH with 4 highly skilled players who can swap between 3-4 classes effictively through the whole dungeon just as much as the LOL's of going in as 7whm's and a PLD. So yes, I hope they add a couple instances that force you to play as classes not jobs, or have every job represented or give bonuses for bringing certain classes, but that isn't the solution for everthing. Also you DO see the irony that this is in and of itself 'class stacking' right? Like what if I like running as a Monk, but the party already has a monk and needs a Bard to enter...guess I have to go Bard even though I wanted to be a monk. Forcing classes/locking players into classes solves nothing, it just creates different problems.

SE can't possibly set up a MMO that will always allow everyone to be optimal on their chosen class/job for every fight and make it an entertaining game. Therefore, every battle, mob, etc will have an exploit. Heck, even crafters know if they level crafts x,y, and z for certain abilities they can HQ easier on their main craft...which is the Only craft they ever intended leveling.

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Personally, idc about class swapping and class stacking as a mechanic to fight bosses. If it's available to me I will use it to my advantage and think nothing of it. I like to succeed and will do what i can to make my success possible. All I'm saying is what will happen down the line. This community(at least those of us from FFXI) are well know for capitalizing on any advantage we may find, whether it be manipulating game mechanics to certain glitches and exploits in the game the developers missed. In the future the problem will become such that the devs will have to design content around class/job swapping(like how they designed content of gear swapping in FFXI) and I can't even imagine what kind of shitfest that would be.

I'd honestly prefer it not get that far and the issue gets nipped in the but soon, even though I know very well that if the mechanic is still present I will use it to my advantage.

And I think the whole ease to swap mechanic came from the whole "lifestyle" philosophy they had going on when the game was first announced. Iirc the intent was to go out and fight, then swap to a craft to repair your gear, or go out and gather then swap to a craft to produce your wares. I really, reallllllly.......................reeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyy doubt they intend for us the community to take advantage of the mechanic in an endgame scenario

BLM cured AIDS

Chuck Norris's first job was a BLM.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

No classes/jobs shouldn't be locked in the majority of content.

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So you're saying all classes should be locked in the majority of content. Double negatives are a wonderful thing. :D

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Maybe if you tried playing as a WHM/CNJ in some of these fights, you'd understand it's not that they don't want to heal the other party members, but that they are constantly either riding red hate levels or watching the tank go from 100% to 60% health. Also, the mages are running and avoiding Plumes and Erruptions too... there are moments where they can't heal because they might need to run (due to potential animation lock). This has gotten a little better with 'running now interrupts spell casting' but running will only interrupt you if you are near the beginning of the cast...otherwise, you can still get locked and die if not careful.

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An instant-cast HoT would probably help. Something AoE like...I think it was Regrowth that Resto druids can cast on everyone in their party. From what you're telling me, seems like healing needs to be looked at and improved.

As a WHM, I'll heal anyone, but there DEFINITELY is a priority in my mind, and one bad judgment call can mean the difference between life and death.

Tank > Other WHM > essential members (with utility abilities or buffs that we ABSOLUTELY NEED to have) > others.

I will heal a BLM and melee DD equally... I'm not prejudice in that regard, but if I see a BLM going down fast at the same time as a melee DD, I may be more likely to make the judgment call to heal the BLM first because I know BLM are squishy and can't take a hit like a melee DD can.

But... if you are bad at avoiding things you NEED to avoid (like cracks, dash, plume, moogle aoes, garuda pushbacks, etc) and I notice it, all bets are off. Now, I'm not going to judge someone if they get hit once or twice. Everyone messes up or lags once in a while... but if you are consistently hit over and over again, it just doesn't make sense to put as much effort into keeping you alive as other people. I won't sit there and watch you die (especially if I am just standing there with nothing else that I need to urgently do), but being bad at avoiding these things AUTOMATICALLY drops you to the lowest place on my 'priority' list. I'll still keep you healed, but you are my absolute last priority at that point. I hope this makes sense.

This isn't a 'system' for me. If a person is new, or they apologize and understand they are getting hit, or say they are lagging, or explain that they are trying this fight on that job for the first time... I will be a bit nicer about it. BUT, if this person has a bad attitude, or is downright denying that they are the problem, I no longer empathize.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

That's the thing though. I don't want to make them useless. I just want balanced content. Garuda was supposed to "sort of" do that and look where we are now lol.

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They should give classes and damage types specific utility against the mobs. A certain type of attack/damage from a mage creates a weakness that can then benefit the melees... whom can then use their abilities to weaken the mob's armor for ranged attacks, etc...

Set the fights up so that the classes aren't just mutually doing damage, but are creating opportunities for the other classes to do their part, meanwhile, everyone is doing their part to bring the thing down. This can work really well if there's going to be damage done to specific appendages, etc.

If it's strictly "damage type", then people are always going to find the "most effective/efficient" setups for that damage type and stack it; a la BLM burns.

Bring all classes and damage types into the fold. Give everyone a role.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

It's the stigma. People see BLM as the easiest way to do things and therefor instantly try to cater every fight to BLM's because that's what they're used to. I'm assuming you have seen the video of a JP group beating garuda with all jobs present, right? This proves that it's more than possible, but not many are willing to 'think outside the box' like that just yet.

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Many people never do and never will think outside the box, because the fight isn't what they're interested in. The reward is. The fight is just an annoying "necessary evil" they need to deal with to get it. Read enough posts and "listen in" on enough conversations, and it becomes clear, many people couldn't care less about the fight, the storyline, the quests or any of the other content. They want the rewards, and that's it.

If they could press a button and get the reward with no further effort involved, I think a number of people would be ecstatic... and that's not hyperbole. If there ever was literally a "Win" button implemented, there are people who would argue "that's the way it should be". I've never seen so many people who seem to absolutely detest anything that gets between them and their reward, or put so much effort into not playing the game (hacking, botting, exploiting, RMT, etc), as I do in the MMO genre.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Many people never do and never will think outside the box, because the fight isn't what they're interested in. The reward is. The fight is just and annoying "necessary evil" they need to deal with to get it. Read enough posts and "listen in" on enough conversations, and it becomes clear, many people couldn't care less about the fight, the storyline, the quests or any of the other content. They want the rewards, and that's it.

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This is a sad truth. At the same time, there's a threshold for what each of us considers reasonable. I don't mind a daily grind, grinding rep, killing a boss in hopes of a drop and so on...within certain parameters. If the daily grind is korean MMO style I'm going to have a problem. If the rep grind is going to involve fighting over lolsand like in vanilla WoW, I'm going to have a problem. If the boss drops nothing or drops logs 99% of the time, I'm going to have a problem. It's really about finding the middle ground.

As far as thinking outside the box, the going with the "most effective comp" thing has been inherited from FFXI, in part because that game's mechanics encouraged jobism instead of inclusion of all jobs for every type of activity in-game. Some use the job and armory systems as excuses for allowing that sort of thing, whereas I think it's BS.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is a sad truth. At the same time, there's a threshold for what each of us considers reasonable. I don't mind a daily grind, grinding rep, killing a boss in hopes of a drop and so on...within certain parameters. If the daily grind is korean MMO style I'm going to have a problem. If the rep grind is going to involve fighting over lolsand like in vanilla WoW, I'm going to have a problem. If the boss drops nothing or drops logs 99% of the time, I'm going to have a problem. It's really about finding the middle ground.

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Indeed, though that kinda goes to the other extreme. There are people I've known who think having to fight a mob more than once to get what they're after (even if it's supposed to be a rare item) is "too much of a grind and unfair to expect of players". They hate anything that requires any more of their time or effort than they want to give to acquire it. These are the types who will cheat, exploit, hack, RMT and such, and then use the cop-out that "the game forced them to do it". I really wonder why some of these people are even playing these games sometimes, considering they openly hate so much about them.

Hello,

The Black Mage 'problem' existed in Vana'Diel, but not to the extent here. I have seen many 'Mana Burn' parties, and have found it adorable to see a group fo Tarus running off to do Mana-Burn together (Tarus had bonus intelligence so did the most damage).

Unlike Eorzea, being a BLM in Vana'Diel was not easy. This was the deterrent to such strategies. It took a long time to level (as did all jobs), and had the added 'cost' of buying spells (which were not cheap). Plus certain racial advantages (hard to be a Galkan BLM). Given these limitations are not present in Eorzea, there are far more BLMs available, making such 'Mana-Burn' parties all that more feasible.

The underlying capabilitiy has not changed. Only the ease of availability of BLM to carry out that strategy has changed.

That being said, people will naturally lean towards a BLM party as it is by far the easiest to do with random pick-up people or those who do not have the opportunity to learn a strategy. (If this is your first time in Garuda they would rather you go as BLM then give you 10+ fights to learn how to deal as a DRG).

Therefore the underlying 'problem' is really: Lack of acceptance by the community to embrace different job combinations when dealing with strategies, choosing to stick with what is easiest or best known.

I use 'airquotes' on 'problem', as it is debateable if this is a problem or just a sometimes-unhappy-circumstance.

Some might argue SE should step in and make it harder for a BLM-Burn party to work. Others might argue its up for us to decide how we want to win a battle.

I personally say that it's useful to have the 'easy-mode' BLM-Burn party as a way to practice the fight, then change to more interesting job combinations as a way to 'enjoy' the fight.

I honestly don't see that many BLm's on my server, not full ones. THer are alot more Pug/monks, wars and paldins. Not everyone is effcient as casters and prefer malee style.

We need an RDM or Blue mage combo.

Magic isn't always the answer. It is also not the easy mode. You can cast, but not be efficient at elmental understanding, mob resistance levels, hoq to weaken them to elements to boost your combo. You can say malee is easier in that term.

Add in managing MP, and low survivial when hi.

Mages are meant to be powerfull, and malee shouldn't be in stirght up hits, never were meant to be, but mages are typically squishy in defence. That's the trade off. timing is even more essential.

Keep in mind BLM on XIV is not as rounded as XI. You do not have acess to the complete range of elemental spells. Your damage is negatiated when you have malee jobs accessign them and screwing up the elemental weakness you try to set up with another. Some will burn party so they can avoid wastefull malee based ones causing the mage to drain more mp then needed.

Hopefull that will all change in 2.0, and mobs will be more varied.

I will bounce another idea around. Instead of just a resistance toward a class in particular why not do portioning of HP that is resistance with diametrically opposing weaknesses. Ok before you say no...let me explain lol.

Example:

Mobs HP is 100k

Blunt (25% of mobs HP)
Magic (25% of mobs HP)
Slashing (25% of mobs HP)
Piecing (25% of mobs HP)

Magic Effect = Magic 100% Blunt 75% Piecing 75% Slashing 50%
Slashing Effect = Slashing 100% Blunt 75% Piercing 75% Magic 50%
Blunt Effect = Blunt 100% Magic 75% Slashing 75% Piercing 50%
Piercing Effect = Piercing 100% Magic 75% Slashing 75% Blunt 50%

Diametrically opposing damage types would still be able to do the fight but it would make it far more difficult. You could still stack if you want to avoid a certain aspect of the fight but will be less efficient than the classes meant to deal the damage to the Bosses portion of health.

Example:

1 War 5 Blm 1 Brd and 1 Whm party:

Magic Portion of HP = War 50% Blm & Whm 100% Brd 75%
Piercing Portion of HP = War 75% Blm & Whm 75% Brd 100%
Slashing Portion of HP = War 100% Blm & Whm 50% Brd 75%
Blunt Portion of HP = War 75% Blm & Whm 75% Brd 50%

The damage would gravitate toward the weakest portion of HP first so Blm attacks would go after the Magic Portion of HP first and Brd damage would go after the Piercing Portion of HP first etc.. Once the Blms get their 25k down though they would start to do less damage vs the two 75% groups (piercing and blunt) then finally have the most trouble with the 25k of Slashing Portion damage on the Boss which they would assist on since the War would have already been chipping away at it.

I would be for switching the percentages around a bit per boss but I can't see how nerfing or making specific content to thwart slacking would benefit anything. When you do things by nerfing and content it just leads to more stacking of another class.

So to spin off of the above, which essentially gives 4 different HP pools, each weak/resistant to a different form of attack. How about Bosses that have multiple body parts, ALL of which need to be destroyed for the clear. So keeping the same 4 HP pools attach each to a different body part. Head/Arms/Legs/Torso

I think they dont need gimp BLM/THM or BRD/ARC... would be better if they add monsters specialized against these jobs, just like Colibries were anti-blm on xi, reflecting their magic, or monsters with high defense against certain weapons like arrows, that way there dont be always an unstopable job. put monsters around resistant to certain job weapon/spells/abilities/ wathever mixed altogueter. in XI monsters had diferent defense bonus against ceretain kind of weapon damage, they need make that noticeable in XIV too.

people use parsers and parsers dont count amount of attacks done and how much per hit they only count totals all BS data people also die in fights dont mean there there weakest.

all the DD's do about the same damage. BUT people only want 1 thing in the party.

i hate being a BLM and im not the only one thats number seven in my list of jobs i want to play. i had more success in /sh party with anything in it than a LS party with mumble @_@.

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Originally Posted by BadOmen

I think they dont need gimp BLM/THM or BRD/ARC... would be better if they add monsters specialized against these jobs, just like Colibries were anti-blm on xi, reflecting their magic, or monsters with high defense against certain weapons like arrows, that way there dont be always an unstopable job. put monsters around resistant to certain job weapon/spells/abilities/ wathever mixed altogueter. in XI monsters had diferent defense bonus against ceretain kind of weapon damage, they need make that noticeable in XIV too.

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Colibri were a terrible thing. What we need is bosses with mechanics that challenge casters and ranged without punishing melee. It can be as simple as something like Shadow Crash (ground-targetted high damage/one-shot-capable attack that prioritizes ranged DPS unless there's no ranged DPS in the group). If you want to single out BLM, then add a boss with a mechanic where MP doesn't regen, even when in passive mode, and instead have adds that have to be killed to restore some of the casters' MP (problem with this mechanic is that the healer would also fall under this). There's ways you can encourage diverse comps without the mess created by TAU.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Colibri were a terrible thing. What we need is bosses with mechanics that challenge casters and ranged without punishing melee..

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Bosses that resist magic might be interesting. Certainly will stop the BLM Burn Mania ^.^; I always thought the idea of a boss that would 'cycle' through weaknesses would be nice (sometimes weak to magic, melee, piercing, etc.) or have adds that had different resistances.

If we had a simple situation:
Boss weak to melee
Half adds weak to magic
Half adds weak to piercing

Would certainly encourage more diversity.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Bosses that resist magic might be interesting. Certainly will stop the BLM Burn Mania ^.^; I always thought the idea of a boss that would 'cycle' through weaknesses would be nice (sometimes weak to magic, melee, piercing, etc.) or have adds that had different resistances.

If we had a simple situation:
Boss weak to melee
Half adds weak to magic
Half adds weak to piercing

Would certainly encourage more diversity.

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You just defined Garuda. Except boss has no weakness, it takes damage from anything. But it has 2 adds which one weak to magic, one weak go melee.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

You just defined Garuda. Except boss has no weakness, it takes damage from anything. But it has 2 adds which one weak to magic, one weak go melee.

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Sorry, I should of been more specific: Those that are not 'weak' to something is resistent to something else. So Boss would resist magic, half the adds would resist magic.

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Originally Posted by BadOmen

...would be better if they add monsters specialized against these jobs, just like Colibries were anti-blm on xi, reflecting their magic...

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I don't think it would be a good idea to make content that certain jobs couldn't participate in. If a person wants to have only BLM leveled for some reason, they'd end up getting left out. I believe a solution needs to be found but I wouldn't like people excluded.

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Originally Posted by BadOmen

...or monsters with high defense against certain weapons like arrows, that way there dont be always an unstopable job.

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Something like this sounds better to me.. but they'd have to be careful not to make the job useless. If you weaken it too much people just won't bring the job. Making jobs balanced is easier said than done though. :\
I'm sure SE will think of something.

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Originally Posted by indira

people use parsers and parsers dont count amount of attacks done and how much per hit they only count totals all BS data people also die in fights dont mean there there weakest.

all the DD's do about the same damage. BUT people only want 1 thing in the party.

i hate being a BLM and im not the only one thats number seven in my list of jobs i want to play. i had more success in /sh party with anything in it than a LS party with mumble @_@.

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A good parser does count every single hit and/or spell that's cast. It'll also keep hit/miss/crit %s as well as running totals.

Even w/o parsing one can see that BLM out dmgs any other job. It's imo a problem more w/ hate mechanics than it is w/ BLM dmg output, because a WAR can basically generate hate faster than any job can DPS up hate, assuming they use Chameleon and what have you to shed some, so BLM doesn't ever really get into trouble. If there were a real threat to going all out all the time then BLMs would die more often than random mistimed AoE dodges. But because of the current hate decay/loss for tanks, or lack there of, if you give them 30 seconds ~ 1 min chances are if they're decent they won't lose hate unless it's to a reset ability or death. Essentially when SE was struggling to fix the hate control mechanics back around beta/release they went a little overboard.

I know how you feel though, I have no plans to finish BRD WHM or BLM I'll get them far enough to have the useful abilities from each and never touch them again. Sadly for now at least that means I'm going to be pushed into the tank or don't come pile.

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

I don't think it would be a good idea to make content that certain jobs couldn't participate in. If a person wants to have only BLM leveled for some reason, they'd end up getting left out. I believe a solution needs to be found but I wouldn't like people excluded.

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I agree, this would just make a different kind of stacking happen and alienate another job.

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Something like this sounds better to me.. but they'd have to be careful not to make the job useless. If you weaken it too much people just won't bring the job. Making jobs balanced is easier said than done though. :\
I'm sure SE will think of something.

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I think that the best way to make everything more desirable is in the support type abilities a job brings to the table, if let's say a BLM brings the single highest dmg potential, but a lnc can give us a drain samba type effect like it used to people might consider them worth bringing for melee parties, if on top of that a pug could stun or pacify (w/o having to dodge or combo first) semi-freely (a recast of course) and it actually stuck (based on INT) then "boss" would become more managable for melees making them useful for more than just a second to BLM dmg output. It's why BRD gets to go it serves more than just the role of a DD who can't beat a BLM's dmg, it's why WAR is preferred to PLD WAR provides DPS while tanking, if other jobs can serve up the extra support/enfeebles then chances are they'll get some play time again.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

and no one is forcing you to read MY opinion to that!

your opinion is just "ahh hell leave me alone with that, i dont care about other people"

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oh right, I forgot. Because my opinion is different from yours it's not valid. Douche.

You don't have to worry though, I do LS only runs and nothing else anyway.

skill chain solve everything

Honestly, you can blame the Armory system for the difficulty in balancing and preventing stacking.

In other MMOs, the reason parties are diverse is for a few reasons:

1. You can't switch jobs. You can switch your role, but they are for completely different purposes (Healing/DPS/Tanking). Sure someone will say something like "Unholy spec is better than Frost", but overall, you are not being forced to a whole other class in general.

2. Other MMO's are more gear dependent. In these fights, a well geared player will survive and perform substantially more DPS than someone without as much gear. In FFXIV, besides BLM, stacking up stats are truly minimal at most and FFXIV overall is more ability/skill dependent.

3. Requirements to win the fight add difficulty to ranged, mage, and melee. Other MMOs (If you can't tell by now, I am mainly referencing to WoW) make conditions that make it difficult for the whole party, not just people near the boss. Right now, FFXIV only punishes players who are too close to the boss. Chimera is an example. He is hard enough without the poison being applied and that one large thunder attack people had to find a small exploit to avoid.

4. FFXIV simply makes other jobs more convenient than others. BLM and WAR have access to many AoE abilities while DRG and MNK only get one real AoE attack that is on a large timer. You either need to tone down AoE on those jobs by making the AoE powerful, but the damage number divides by how many enemies you hit, or you need to give DRG/MNK more AoE usability. The first option makes it so DPS is on par with the other jobs, but it is hitting all enemies at once. Like WAR takes everything down slowly with AoE, but DRG and MNK take one by one down faster, matching the speed it takes for a WAR to take all of them down.

Not exactly the best idea, and a bunch of flaws I know, but just an idea that could be twisted around to possibly work.

5. All classes bring something to the table. In WoW, all classes have some special buff or debuff that really benefits the party. Rather it be a Paladin's King buff, a Hunter's Mark of the Wild, a Death Knight's Horn of Winter, and so on. These buffs being a lot to the party, and why most raids have people seeking at least one of every class in a group. Bard is FFXIV's answer to this, but other jobs should have passive traits that benefit the party in a way that doesn't affect the Bard.

6. Other MMO's push you in the right direction on what to do. They give you dungeon journals and tell you what ability mobs use and how you can avoid them. Bosses are still difficult despite this, but your group has a better idea of what is going on and work with it instead of constantly dieing to the next surprise. SE throws you in completely blindfolded and because of this, people just watch the forums and sees how the first LS to beat it does it, and does it exactly like that. I am not saying give us a full strategy, I am saying give us a push in the right direction. Class stacking happens to the ignorant.




Said as much as I could. FFXIV can't make something out of everything I said, but they need to find a real balance and solution to influence diversity. Hopefully they will find a semi-solution by 2.0, but who knows.

really if you wish to get rid of the class stacking a good way would be going back to the way the original 5 nm's were put in game with drops and incorporate incaps back into the battles. use ifrit for example instead of dropping his regen by breaking his horns it would be the only way to get x drop. use incaps for the mele classes to be needed to get into the groups because the drop could only come if a certain part of the mob was broken.

let's say it takes blm spells to break the tail of ifrit and it's the only way to get the blm weapon to drop.
it takes mnk and war to incap his head and it's the only way to get the mnk and war weapons to drop.
takes drg and brd to incap the body and the only way to get their drops.
takes pld and whm for the legs and that makes those drop.

this would make it to where you would be more viable to go into a party with a party of each job because it takes skills from each one to incap the parts. it would take 4 complete incaps to get the chances to get the drops for the class you wanted. if you are wanting to run drg then why would you want to run blm burns if the drop for your main had no chance to come that way?

it gives an incentive to go in with all jobs in the party, but you could still kill the mob if you wanted to stack. to me people are more about the rewards so it would be a good way to get more variety in the parties.