I'm gonna say it. cause no one else will.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

By that logic two buttons would be enough for all classes. Who needs diversity?

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Hey, you're right! Who needs diversity? Coincidentally, healers all have their same 1 Nuke, 1 DoT, 1 AoE. Diversity, right? 99% of what healers are doing during DPS down time is the exact same spam of 1 button. Diversity is good, right? But only when it's a role you play, because your fun is more important than ours.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

But that's not what you really want. You want a white mage that go full super saiyan and do the work of a black mage, too.

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Asking for more DPS options/things to fill downtime =/= wanting healers to do that. You can create a strawman all you want, but I'm not going to engage with it further.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Dark knights have a full kit to support themselves in and out of dungeons and so do healers, but in groups they have a specific role and they are given a wide range of abilities to make it possible. Same goes for healers, BUT WAIT healers can do more. They have a massive amount of healer spells AND they can even add dps. But for some, even that singularly unique trait that no other class apart from healers can claim, that just doesn't seem to be enough.

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It's very apparent to me that you're dodging the question because you know you do not have a good answer. Tanks in groups have a specific role and they're given a wide range of mitigation abilities to make that role (tanking damage) possible. Except you don't have nearly enough mitigation if we're comparing it to our healing kits, so we really do need to get rid of your bloated DPS kit so you can focus on what you're supposed to be doing, which is TANKING. I really don't get how you do not see that. You have a singular unique trait that DPS and healers don't have. When we take massive amounts of damage, we die, but you live! If the boss drops a tank buster on a DPS or a healer, we die, but you live! Yet still, so many selfish tanks are too focused on being DPSbots, and that's because they have too many DPS abilities that distract them from doing what they need to do. So we should remove the remaining DPS options tanks have, and you can spam Unmend/Shield Lob/etc during downtime where you aren't pressing those mitigation buttons and doing your job. That one button will be enough to get you through solo content too, so there's no need to complain about how you'll feel outside of dungeons/raids. After all, if healers have no reason to complain about that, you won't either.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

But that's not what you really want. You want a white mage that go full super saiyan and do the work of a black mage, too.

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Oh c'mon, maybe spend more than 5 minutes reading the discussion of this forum instead of typing nonsense. At least you would save some time from the kind people that are willing to lose time discussing with you.

I'm tired of seeing people that only give a quick glance to the healer discussion spitting nonsense without ever considered that their fallacy has already been debunked over and over again. Respect the time of the people of this forum that actually care about this role, ffs.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

If you stop reading after the first sentence you'll never graduate.

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Is understanding what is actually going on before actually making any comments is a skill you learn from graduating too? Wow!

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

By that logic two buttons would be enough for all classes. Who needs diversity?

But that's not what you really want. You want a white mage that go full super saiyan and do the work of a black mage, too.

Dark knights have a full kit to support themselves in and out of dungeons and so do healers, but in groups they have a specific role and they are given a wide range of abilities to make it possible. Same goes for healers, BUT WAIT healers can do more. They have a massive amount of healer spells AND they can even add dps. But for some, even that singularly unique trait that no other class apart from healers can claim, that just doesn't seem to be enough.

Tanks who heal? Nope. Dps that tank? Nope. Tanks who dps? Barely. Dps that heal? Barely.

Healers who dps? Absolutely, and far better than tanks but NOT GOOD ENOUGH?!

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you have tanks that heal ,they are called paladin, tanks who dps they are called gunbreakers, dps that heal they are called red mages and maybe throw in smn. dps that tank you have seen full parties full of only dps that clear alliances so i guess i could say every dps then.

drk have a full kit but not just to support themselves, they have a 1,2,3 combo a few ogcd to do damage and some defensive cds and yet you have tanks that don't use them and let party members die cause they dont keep agro.
so maybe we need to give tanks the iron and "streamline" your kit. maybe once your kit will be reduce to press 1 button to attract every add in 30y radius and everything else is just defensive cd that do nothing but mitigate to every job in that role, would make players do your job properly. after all what is a tank if not attracting the mobs to him ,they don't need to dps.

heavens forbit that the healer who kept you alive from dying to your living dead skill would have 1 extra button he runs when he doesn't heal you every second. in fact havens forbid that he even let your hp drop below 99% cause he decided to do stuff to support the run going faster.

I think healers are fine as is and I understand people want to change them. Why bother reading every single comment on why people want change if I disagree with that desire? Tldr: sorry I didn't read or reference your comment, I don't care.

Although, I'm pretty sure I hit the nail on the head with the "desire for more buttons or desire for more damage" theory. Seems like people want fundamental changes to how the game works (which reminds me of similar changes that occurred in WoW that ultimately destroyed it - see WoW classic vs WoW retail for reference) to which I say, no thank you.

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Originally Posted by VictoriaLuv

someone actually agrees with me. these people want to destroy healer. all they have to do is make healer heal more. make sure healer has no down-time at all no one want dps skills. these people want to destroy the healer. they don't want a healer. they want there main tanks to die. cause healer to busy dpsing. cause to lazy cause a heal spell when it needed . this is issue most of these people troll other people on the forums. take there time attacking other players. people don't like me cause am agressive and tell it to it to them straight with no care to there feelings

we people who love healing love our job should stand up. say no to this wanting more dps skills isn't gonna fix healer. no forcing healer to actually heal or whole raid dies is important. implement dungeon boss world fates. even trash monsters with mechanic that do bloody tank busters. never designed to be black mages have 20 button rotation. seriously anyone who asking heals have new dps opinions really go play dps. let people who been healing sense arr do there thing

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yes giving healers 1 extra button to press while not healing is basically screaming, destroy the healer role entirely cause then they become dps who heal and those don't exist right?
i mean its not like we have smn that have physics and soon will have phoenix to heal and raise people or we have red mage that can heal and raise more people faster or that every melee can heal themselves with both bloodbath and second wind.

you do realize as well as asking them to make every mob hit like a tank buster would technically make our day but scare every new/lazy player from the role to narnia cause you raise the floor and they cant keep up.
im all for it, let SE do that and block your fellow lazy players who want just to afk and wait then actually heal or help the team, i know that me and the others healers here will be happy to finally press more then 1 button 99% of an entire run.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I think healers are fine as is and I understand people want to change them. Why bother reading every single comment on why people want change if I disagree with that desire?

Although, I'm pretty sure I hit the nail on the head with the "desire for more buttons or desire for more damage" theory.

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So you don't even try to hear what exactly people are complaining, and what are the problems presented before spitting that you think that everything is fine? Why bother joining the discussion? And yet, you want to be heard? Pfft. Sound like the one that needs to graduate or at least a bit of basic education is you. Come back here when you respect people's time instead of throwing the same old nonsense.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

yes giving healers 1 extra button to press while not healing is basically screaming, destroy the healer role entirely cause then they become dps who heal and those don't exist right?
i mean its not like we have smn that have physics and soon will have phoenix to heal and raise people or we have red mage that can heal and raise more people faster or that every melee can heal themselves with both bloodbath and second wind.

you do realize as well as asking them to make every mob hit like a tank buster would technically make our day but scare every new/lazy player from the role to narnia cause you raise the floor and they cant keep up.
im all for it, let SE do that and block your fellow lazy players who want just to afk and wait then actually heal or help the team, i know that me and the others healers here will be happy to finally press more then 1 button 99% of an entire run.

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Of course one more button wouldn't hurt. But it's already unnecessary and it would set a bad precedent. I'm sure more abilities are already coming with the expac and it blows my mind that healers are disappointed that classes focused on healing aren't becoming better dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I think healers are fine as is and I understand people want to change them. Why bother reading every single comment on why people want change if I disagree with that desire?

Although, I'm pretty sure I hit the nail on the head with the "desire for more buttons or desire for more damage" theory. Seems like people want fundamental changes to how the game works (which reminds me of similar changes that occurred in WoW that ultimately destroyed it - see WoW classic vs WoW retail for reference) to which I say, no thank you.

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nope you didn't ,in fact asking that we don't dps is basically asking to change the game from its core.
so basically you are saying you are destroying ff14 then? and if you understand why people want to change them then why do you assume they want to be dps that heals? when they said no, we want to do more support to the team when healing not needed repeatedly.
seriously go read the comments, its embarrassing that you claim to know what people ask only to get it so so wrong.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Of course one more button wouldn't hurt. But it's already unnecessary and it would set a bad precedent. I'm sure more abilities are already coming with the expac and it blows my mind that healers are disappointed that classes focused on healing aren't becoming better dps classes.

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right.... they want to become better dps jobs.... ,read comment above and seriously go read the comments its getting so embarrassing i am starting to feel sorry for you

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

By that logic two buttons would be enough for all classes. Who needs diversity?

But that's not what you really want. You want a white mage that go full super saiyan and do the work of a black mage, too.

Dark knights have a full kit to support themselves in and out of dungeons and so do healers, but in groups they have a specific role and they are given a wide range of abilities to make it possible. Same goes for healers, BUT WAIT healers can do more. They have a massive amount of healer spells AND they can even add dps. But for some, even that singularly unique trait that no other class apart from healers can claim, that just doesn't seem to be enough.

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Can you stop being hyperbolic please?

What people want: Engaging gameplay when healing is not needed, meaning not just for raids, but also dungeons, MSQ, FATEs, etc. "Engaging" can mean a lot of things. What does that look like? You'll get a lot of different answers, and ultimately we'd need to test changes before saying that they'd work, but this is what I'd like in WHM for example:

1. Add Water in at level 15, and it can eventually upgrade into Banish or something silmilar.
A GCD spell that's slightly stronger than Stone/Glare (Perhaps 350 potency to Glare III's 310).
- MP Cost is 400
- Instant Cast time
- 15 Second Recast time (3 charges)
It's simple, yet it offers you some extra damage alongside mobility, and you can afford to hold onto charges for mobility purposes. Just a little extra spice to the direct DPS spells.

2. Integrate the lily system at much lower levels, ideally with Afflatus Misery or a weaker alternative available at level 50, and expand upon the lily system in a way that allows WHM to close and/or surpass the gap between misery's DPS and 4 Glare IIIs. I've gone back and forth with a lot of ideas on this specifically, but one simple idea would be something like:

- Keep Afflatus Misery's DPS updated with Glare upgrades to be worth 3 Glares
- i.e. Update it's potency to 930 based on the media tour build.

- A GCD spell that grants 1 lily and nourishes the blood lily 2 times
- Costs 1200 MP
It creates a risk-reward factor in using your MP, to gain offers something for Thin Air to work with other than Raise and would allow you to use Misery in 3 GCDs, making it DPS neutral. Since you need to nourish the blood lily 3 times, you also can't spam this.

- A GCD lily spell that restores 2000 MP to yourself
- Has a 60 second recast (2 charges)
Helps you recover MP if you've been overzealous but also can't be spammed. Also gives you a potential lily dump if you need it.

- Give Holy and Holy III a trait where your next cast of Holy/Holy III nourishes the blood lily after consuming a regular lily.
- This helps you ultimately turn Misery into a small DPS gain when using that 1200 MP cost spell to keep your lily nourished throughout a fight.

Something like this still needs adjustments, but it would result in less time casting Glare and more time focusing on your lilies while also giving you more lilies to use for healing. It also gives Holy a reason to be cast in single target situations which is even better for passive healers since you can cast it without having to target the boss. If we could work out the kinks, I think that would benefit both casual and experienced WHM players.

This is by far not the ONLY way to do WHM, but it's just an example to show that engagement doesn't have to mean adding a 1-2-3 combo and could increase the skill ceiling while ultimately not punishing casual healers.

Correct, I disagree with you without reading why you think changes are needed. Know why? Because I enjoy playing WHM and I don't want to see a change to the class based purely on people's desire to make it more deadly. Let healers heal and dps dps and tanks tank. Don't like it, play WoW where a holy priest can out dps a elemental shaman and never die either. Keep that nonsense away from 14.

As for "busywork" between heals, be happy heals have any dps abilities at all. Naturally they don't want to create a dps rotation that healers would potentially become so distracted by they fail at their true role

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Lilybell's okay. I think it would be better if it could be assigned to a partymember and activating when they take damage (like the tank) vs it going off when the caster gets hit. Also, its AoE should be 30 yalms so it isn't wasted when the party has to spread.

(Aesthetically, I think its too cutesy and is a bit on the gaudy-side. They built WHM up to be elegant and refined but then added this kawaii water heart with flowers on it.)

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There's a couple of issues with the skill.
As you said, the radius of it is problematic since it can end up not healing someone that is just outside its range.

The lack of control on the skill is another problem I have with the skill. The WHM needs to take damage for the skill to work, else it just expires in 15 seconds and becomes a crappier Earthly Star on a 3 minute CD. So in casual content, like a Dungeon, where the Healer is taking minimal damage, if at all, its just relatively useless for 15 seconds unless the WHM goes out of their way to take damage just to force a proc and if the Tank can survive for 15 seconds without any other healing required, then Lilybell wasn't needed in the 1st place. Now, in the cases that the WHM is taking consistent damage, such as in J-Waves of TEA, and can get the full benefits of the skill, its fine but in every other case, its just not that great a skill. Making it tied to someone else, like the tank, would alleviate some of the issue with the skill but even that isn't fool proof either, such as in instances where Tank swaps are needed or in 24 man where your tank isn't the MT and thus isn't taking damage either. Sure, using casual content as an argument is kind of meh, but when I compare Lilybell to something like Macrocosmos, which is much more flexible in its usage and does work in all instances regardless, it just feels so underwhelming in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Correct, I disagree with you without reading

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Then stop pretending you know what people are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Correct, I disagree with you without reading why you think changes are needed. Know why? Because I enjoy playing WHM and I don't want to see a change to the class based purely on people's desire to make it more deadly. Let healers heal and dps dps and tanks tank. Don't like it, play WoW where a holy priest can out dps a elemental shaman and never die either. Keep that nonsense away from 14.

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When has holy priest done more damage then elemental shaman? Closest thing I've seen is holy paladin doing tank damage.
Also we really shouldn't cater to people who just play whm we should cater to their mains.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

nope you didn't ,in fact asking that we don't dps is basically asking to change the game from its core.
so basically you are saying you are destroying ff14 then? and if you understand why people want to change them then why do you assume they want to be dps that heals? when they said no, we want to do more support to the team when healing not needed repeatedly.
seriously go read the comments, its embarrassing that you claim to know what people ask only to get it so so wrong.

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I never said healers shouldn't dps. If you won't read what I wrote then I won't read what you wrote.

Find us comments in response to ShB healing state where majority healer mains stated specifically that they want to do more dps than they already are as of now, then. You can theorize all you want but they are weightless in face of how healing actually happens in real practice.

More dps button =/= do more dps, don’t even try.
More things to do =/= do more dps, not even close.
More interesting downtime options =/= do more dps, try again.
More complex mechanic =/= do more dps, just stop.

Oh wait, you don’t care to understand at all? Well great, that saves so much time, thanks! Next.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Correct, I disagree with you without reading why you think changes are needed. Know why? Because I enjoy playing WHM and I don't want to see a change to the class based purely on people's desire to make it more deadly. Let healers heal and dps dps and tanks tank. Don't like it, play WoW where a holy priest can out dps a elemental shaman and never die either. Keep that nonsense away from 14.

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But that's kind of the problem. Healers don't heal, at least not at enough of a volume to warrant not having anything to do when no healing is needed. In order to keep the role easy and attractive to casual players, SE has taken a stance of heavily spreading out unavoidable damage to give healers a pretty large amount of breathing room to mend mistakes, even in savage. What you get as a result is a pretty significant amount of time where no one's even taking damage--the tank often getting slapped with a feather until mechanics and raidwides get dished out. That's not even taking into account MSQ fights which are often really cool but mind-numbingly slow and monotonous for healers.

Many of us would probably be a lot more content if the damage being pumped out significantly increased, but that would not benefit the casual healer at all. Giving healers more ways to optimize their damage as well as potentially warrant GCD utility usage more frequently is the best thing we can hope to achieve that can actually keep casual players from becoming overwhelmed while also letting experienced players have more fun with a role that, right now, has very little to offer of fun for anyone who's gotten through the honeymoon phase, as someone else had put it.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

-snip-

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The thing that destroyed WoW wasn't their core loop. It was the garbage systems surrounding it. Maintaining basic upkeep for content of any sort (nevermind raiding) and gearing in that game is a goddamned nightmare compared to here, where you can join a hunt train for an hour to cap tomestones and then do literally anything you want. Savage only requires you to buy food for prog and you can save pots for clears, making the actual costs extremely low. You don't even need crafted gear unless you're pushing for week one full clears. You can legit go into each tier on last tier's BiS and clear weeklies to farm your way to the min item level reqs for the last two bosses if that's all you want to do for Savage, and by the time an Ultimate fight comes out you'll likely already have BiS or be fairly close to it if you're only interested in it on your main job. The only reason you'd do something extra for it is if you wanted to abuse Relic for the sync stats, and that's entirely optional and frankly not even worth the time unless you actively enjoy the relic grind to begin with.

This game does not ask you to build out whatever a fucking garrison or artifact weapon is (I assume it is like the stuff we get in Bozja/Eureka but way more asinine) then flip the diablo drop lever thousands of times just to get a core ability/trait that is tied to a piece of gear or that subsystem. The one time we even remotely had that was Diadem, for substat gambling on gear, and it was never considered BiS until the expansion reached essentially the same point we have been at for three months now. And when players complained SE -literally threw that out-.

That said, the reason people are asking for DPS rotations on healers specifically is engagement. You want Glare spammers to not fall asleep and ignore you messing up a mechanic? Give them something to think about when things aren't going wrong. That's all that we are asking for. I literally do not care what form that additional attention takes, but ultimately the reason we settle on DPS rotations is so healing requirements don't have to go up in casual and hard content alike, nor do we expect to get more support or more focus on crowd control, as all of those are things SE themselves has stated they literally do not want to do. Hence we choose the vectors that can be influenced with minimal resource cost, as it's unreasonable to expect SE to rework 10 years of content to cater to a call for increased healing demands everywhere.

And the crazy part? This is how XIV worked for half of its lifetime. We had healer DoT rotations all the way through Stormblood. This one-Button filler rotation is the aberration, not the other way around. Heavensward and ARR also had more of a GCD healing focus too. Why? we had less healing cooldowns to work with. Stormblood is where we started seeing a shift towards this simplification by not getting any new DPS buttons while Scholar started seeing some pruning, Shadowbringers actively cut that part out across all three healers while keeping the same trend of adding more healing cooldowns. Endwalker's adding minor QoL to our DPS spells but otherwise what it is adding is -barely- relevant. Every healer's Lilybell equivalent is basically there to make sure we do jack all through Terminal Relativity-like mechanics while their single target buff is a free tank cooldown when tanks somehow continue to forget they have mitigation in Expert roulette. That's it. Each healer already has at least four oGCDs for both of those situations already. We literally do not need any more of them.

Forms of assistance, mitigation, buffs, and other such things are wildly different from new forms of dps. I'm all for finding ways to make that down time more engaging, even if I feel like there are already plenty of things to do during a boss fight in which death could happen at any second and dps options DO already exist.

But all I'm reading is more dps buttons, more damaging abilities. And that's where I draw my line in the dirt. I feel like people don't even know what they're asking for. They just want MORE, and that troubles me greatly.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Forms of assistance, mitigation, buffs, and other such things are wildly different from new forms of dps. I'm all for finding ways to make that down time more engaging.

But all I'm reading is more dps buttons, more damaging abilities. And that's where I draw my line in the dirt.

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Here's the thing about why DPS is such a heavy factor: both healing and utility are not things that you can measure--they are pass/fail mechanics. Either you can heal through an attack or you can't. Either you can remove doom or your can't. There's no form of utility that can be pushed or optimized outside of just knowing when and where to use them. As mentioned above, the design team will not increase the demand for healing or utility out of fear that it will alienate casual players. So what else is left?

How much can you DPS while passing all of the healing and utility checks a fight can throw at you? That is the only way to allow healers to evolve and change. This is why some of the most interesting and exciting abilities we've seen from EW are Pneuma and Macrocosmos--because they let you continue to support and heal while maintaining your DPS, and they're on the GCD.

You can draw your line in the dirt all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we will NEVER see healers evolve until the designers learn this fact and start building healers around it. Until that point, casual players may not be bothered by the lack of options healers have to work with for the majority of most content in the game, or they may still be in their honeymoon phase, but anyone that seeks to improve their healer gameplay who gets passed that is going to ultimately become disappointed in the job because you can't offer healers anything of value without addressing the focus on DPS optimization.

I get what you're saying. I do.


BUT

Healers DOOOOOO have dps abilities already. Several, actually. They can and do contribute, even though it was stated that it should never be considered necessary for success. It's even been stated many times that they are even better at doing damage than tanks. So this ability to push themselves to be better in the available windows of down time is already clearly there. Its just ...IRRITATING to read about people complaining about, essentially, how EASY and boring it is to do great dps while effortlessly healing like it's some huge problem.

That's why I feel like people really just don't know what it is they want. MORE CAKE!

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I get what you're saying. I do.


BUT

Healers DOOOOOO have dps abilities already. Several, actually. They can and do contribute, even though it was stated that it should never be considered necessary for success. It's even been stated many times that they are even better at doing damage than tanks. So this ability to push themselves to be better in the available windows of down time is already clearly there. Its just ...IRRITATING to read about people complaining about, essentially, how EASY and boring it is to do great dps while effortlessly healing like it's some huge problem.

That's why I feel like people really just don't know what it is they want. MORE CAKE!

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Yes, because that's what I want in a video gaming experience: something that's easy and boring. I yearn to take time out of my day and pay money to bore myself with slow and uneventful gameplay.

Do you honestly not see what's wrong with that statement?

Also, I don't know how the topics on this forum could possibly be even more clear that we know exactly what we want.

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm inclined to believe this is just more bait. I don't really know why there's a handful of people that just want to harass the people on here discussing valuable and important conversations. I totally get that this place is, in many ways, is really just an echo chamber, but the trolling is entirely unwarranted.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Here's the thing about why DPS is such a heavy factor: both healing and utility are not things that you can measure--they are pass/fail mechanics. Either you can heal through an attack or you can't. Either you can remove doom or your can't. There's no form of utility that can be pushed or optimized outside of just knowing when and where to use them. As mentioned above, the design team will not increase the demand for healing or utility out of fear that it will alienate casual players. So what else is left?

How much can you DPS while passing all of the healing and utility checks a fight can throw at you? That is the only way to allow healers to evolve and change. This is why some of the most interesting and exciting abilities we've seen from EW are Pneuma and Macrocosmos--because they let you continue to support and heal while maintaining your DPS, and they're on the GCD.

You can draw your line in the dirt all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we will NEVER see healers evolve until the designers learn this fact and start building healers around it. Until that point, casual players may not be bothered by the lack of options healers have to work with for the majority of most content in the game, or they may still be in their honeymoon phase, but anyone that seeks to improve their healer gameplay who gets passed that is going to ultimately become disappointed in the job because you can't offer healers anything of value without addressing the focus on DPS optimization.

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Sounds like you people need to play different jobs and leave healing to the people who actually want to do it. I'd take a sprout healer over a glare mage anyday because they actually heal. When I leveled ast and whm a while ago I did it to heal. Keep the dot up on the boss but my priority was healing and I was extra busy in 8 man's because all the people complaining about downtime aren't bothering to heal at all. You're not gonna get more involved dps because that's not your job.

Then why do dps and tank jobs have healing and mitigation buttons then? It's not their job, right! With how much self healing everyone else is getting, healers will be made functionally redundant and pointless. I want to heal more, I'd love it more than anything, but paying attention to how the game is built means I can't just jam a square shape in a round hole and heal just to cast heals like a useless idiot.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Yes, because that's what I want in a video gaming experience: something that's easy and boring. I yearn to take time out of my day and pay money to bore myself with slow and uneventful gameplay.

Do you honestly not see what's wrong with that statement?

Also, I don't know how the topics on this forum could possibly be even more clear that we know exactly what we want.

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm inclined to believe this is just more bait. I don't really know why there's a handful of people that just want to harass the people on here discussing valuable and important conversations. I totally get that this place is, in many ways, is really just an echo chamber, but the trolling is entirely unwarranted.

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Yes, clearly I'm trolling because I'm the only one who feels this way.

I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt since, for a moment there, you seemed willing to actually talk. But then I continued to disagree with you and the truth came out. Pity.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Yes, clearly I'm trolling because I'm the only one who feels this way.

I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt since, for a moment there, you seemed willing to actually talk. But then I continued to disagree with you and the truth came out. Pity.

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It has nothing to do with the stance you take and everything to do with how you communicate it. The community that stands on the "experienced" side of the argument has largely come to the conclusion that want we want is something that adds the depth and fun value without disrupting the easy and accessibility of the role for casual players, but you won't hear it. You don't want something that makes the role more fun for us without changing your ability to not worry about optimization. You want us to enjoy the role the way you do or not at all, and that, to me, doesn't sound like something any legitimate casual player would say.

There have been people that have brought up concerns about not wanting the role to become harder for incredibly valid reasons. Examples like "my brother has special needs," "I'm in my 60s now and its hard to keep up with DPS jobs," "I have joint problems in my hands that make it hard to maintain a rotation," are all things that I've heard and are completely reasonable things to want healing to stay simple and not require optimization which is exactly why the vast majority of us have been beating the dead horse over and over and over again that raising the skill floor is NOT what we want, and it is entirely possible to raise the skill ceiling without making a noticeable impact on the skill floor, or even making it easier for the casual audience to improve their optimization without changing how they will play the job.

Wanting SGE's Toxikon II for example to be DPS neutral with 2 casts of Dosis III changes nothing about how a casual player will play SGE, but will actually improve their DPS contribution because it means overusing E. Diagnosis will actually be less of a DPS loss for you while allowing experienced healers to optimize how they shield the party.

The suggestion I made above about adding in a Water spell actually makes it easier for casual players to dodge mechanics because it gives you a way to do a little extra damage without having to cast anything at all.

That said, I cannot, in good conscience, believe that someone actively wants a game to be boring so they can not play the game. If you want to just enjoy the scenery, then explore the overworld or use the Explorer mode that we've had for quite some time now to just explore dungeons for the fun of it. That is literally a mode added to the game for that very purpose. If you want to instead watch Netflix or talk on the phone with your friend, then go do those things instead. These are solutions that rational people understand without having to explain them, and I cannot bring myself to believe you don't have the sense to understand that. You are an intelligence, conscious person, and I have enough faith in your intelligence to view these as nothing more than an attempt at trolling and not a genuine stance you would possibly take.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Forms of assistance, mitigation, buffs, and other such things are wildly different from new forms of dps. I'm all for finding ways to make that down time more engaging, even if I feel like there are already plenty of things to do during a boss fight in which death could happen at any second and dps options DO already exist.

But all I'm reading is more dps buttons, more damaging abilities. And that's where I draw my line in the dirt. I feel like people don't even know what they're asking for. They just want MORE, and that troubles me greatly.

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The thing is, we had that before and SE took them away.

We had Stoneskin for Prey Mechanics
We had Shadowflare for Slow debuff so enemies didn't attack as frequently
We had Stella for a Heavy debuff on stuff like Liquid Limb in A3S so as to give us more time to deal with that mechanic.
We had Virus/Disable/Eye for an Eye for mitigation purposes.

WE HAD ALL THIS!!!
And it all got taken away. We have asked SE for more mechanics for healers for YEARS but all we got was more tools to heal with.

To make matters worse, how many times have they repackaged the same skills we've had in the past just with a different coat of paint and say its new?
Temperance is just Divine Seal with 10% damage mitigation added to it.
Seraph is just Rouse with a Shield effect
Lord/Lady of Crowns are back in pretty much the exact same form as they were in SB but in AoE.
Aqua Veil/Exaltation/Protraction are, ironically, Eye for an Eye just specific to the healer and I'd wager I can't spread Protraction with Deployment Tactics like I could Eye for an Eye on SCH so not even as good as it was either.

This isn't even asking for more. We're asking for the things we had to be returned so that the role isn't simply a 1 button wonder that it currently is.

Why would anyone be against hybrid playstyle? At least make it an optional playstyle on Sage for diversity and fun. The "healers only heal" mentality is extremely outdated and is only appealing to probably 1% of the total MMO playerbase. Remember that for every 3 DPS in this game there needs to be a healer to balance the queue. And right now it doesn't look like it's very balanced. Adding a GNB of healers would be very healthy for 14 in the long term.

Also, even if they up the healing requirements in instances, why wouldn't you want more interesting DPS options anyways so you aren't useless in the open world when doing MSQ/Bozja/Fates etc.? It really baffles me.

VictoriaLuv ruined Viera for me. :(

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm inclined to believe this is just more bait. I don't really know why there's a handful of people that just want to harass the people on here discussing valuable and important conversations. I totally get that this place is, in many ways, is really just an echo chamber, but the trolling is entirely unwarranted.

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It's not a conversation when anyone with an opposing view - granted with some level of aggression (but honestly unparalleled to the aggression of the other side) - is told that they're baiting for inflammation and irritation. You acknowledged that the forums can become an echo chamber, but continue that preconception. Wording can be the difference between bait and a true opinion sometimes, it's true, but so can the poster's intent.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

VictoriaLuv ruined Viera for me. :(



It's not a conversation when anyone with an opposing view - granted with some level of aggression (but honestly unparalleled to the aggression of the other side) - is told that they're baiting for inflammation and irritation. You acknowledged that the forums can become an echo chamber, but continue that preconception. Wording can be the difference between bait and a true opinion sometimes, it's true, but so can the poster's intent.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

There have been people that have brought up concerns about not wanting the role to become harder for incredibly valid reasons. Examples like "my brother has special needs," "I'm in my 60s now and its hard to keep up with DPS jobs," "I have joint problems in my hands that make it hard to maintain a rotation," are all things that I've heard and are completely reasonable things to want healing to stay simple and not require optimization which is exactly why the vast majority of us have been beating the dead horse over and over and over again that raising the skill floor is NOT what we want, and it is entirely possible to raise the skill ceiling without making a noticeable impact on the skill floor, or even making it easier for the casual audience to improve their optimization without changing how they will play the job.

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There have actually been several great conversations with players that had an opposing view, but the difference is that we were able to find a healthy middle ground whereas there are players on here who's entire point is basically:

"I like it because it's boring, so why can't you?" Which just isn't something that you can debate about. And I also just have a very difficult time accepting that that's a real perspective that someone can have on a video game and not just someone verbally teabagging on players who are frustrated with a game's direction for the sake of being obnoxious. It's difficult to make that discernment between someone who's legitimately trolling and someone that is either poorly communicating their point or just has a very extreme opposing view.

Well reasoned, except for the part where you put words in my mouth. I never said I want boring. I never said healing was boring. That was all you. I said that it's unreasonable for some players to cry for change in a working system that is already very important and engaging. I said that changing the way healers do damage seems greatly unnecessary since the damage they do seems to be in a good place. I said that healers should always focus first on healing and that over complicating their dps systems JUST FOR THE SAKE OF OVER COMPLICATING THEM seems really dumb to me when, clearly, not everyone wants that.

If you're bored with healing that's between you and your chosen play style. Maybe you should take a break til you can play Sage, which seems to have been made more complicated just for those who want a more challenging class...

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Well reasoned, except for the part where you put words in my mouth. I never said I want boring. I never said healing was boring. That was all you. I said that it's unreasonable for some players to cry for change in a working system that is already very important and engaging. I said that changing the way healers do damage seems greatly unnecessary since the damage they do seems to be in a good place. I said that healers should always focus first on healing and that over complicating their dps systems JUST FOR THE SAKE OF OVER COMPLICATING THEM seems really dumb to me when, clearly, not everyone wants that.

If you're bored with healing that's between you and your chosen play style. Maybe you should take a break til you can play Sage, which seems to have been made more complicated just for those who want a more challenging class...

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If you actually found healing engaging enough you'd have AST and SCH unlocked and at 80 by now given your sparse forum history suggests you've been playing long enough to justify ranking up all classes in your spare time. You've only levelled White Mage which by everyone's standards is literally the poster child for every design problem healers have. It's certainly 'interesting' how its suffered multiple expansions of getting entire aspects of its kit stripped down and given to everyone else and you literally do not have even a modicum of actual experience on said jobs historically to see that. And given your lack of Edenmorn gear on your Dragoon I'm pretty comfortable saying you're a casual player who doesn't run extreme or savage content. As a result of those three factors combined, it is fairly likely your opinion comes from a place of ignorance. If you are actually happy with healers then log on and start levelling another one or go run Savage/Extreme pugs until you can acquire some necessary perspective. Anyone who can clear that content reliably or reads some damned tooltips and actively tries to improve will understand where we're coming from. Healers are about action efficiency, getting the minimum amount of healing necessary in the least costly and smoothest way possible. I can comfortably say you are not doing so if you have your current opinions in combination with what I've noted above. All SE needs to do to cater to your perspective is not add an enrage to the encounters you actually do.

This is what happens when a BLM uses Scathe and the trait for doubled potency kicks in.

Ooooh, burnnnnn!

Except you're dead wrong because this is my new main. Only thing you're right about is that I haven't done eden savage because I'm focusing on assisting new players in my FC who came over from WoW and also on farming gil for the expac. I've played since the tail end of ARR.

lol /golfclap. sit down.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Well reasoned, except for the part where you put words in my mouth. I never said I want boring. I never said healing was boring. That was all you. I said that it's unreasonable for some players to cry for change in a working system that is already very important and engaging. I said that changing the way healers do damage seems greatly unnecessary since the damage they do seems to be in a good place. I said that healers should always focus first on healing and that over complicating their dps systems JUST FOR THE SAKE OF OVER COMPLICATING THEM seems really dumb to me when, clearly, not everyone wants that.

If you're bored with healing that's between you and your chosen play style. Maybe you should take a break til you can play Sage, which seems to have been made more complicated just for those who want a more challenging class...

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The Draw of SGE is that it has some interplay between it's healing and damage. Kardia heals the Tank while the SGE is doing damage so why can't other healers be given similar tools in their toolkit that don't take away from their jobs as healers but allows them to continue contributing to the fight?

AST is getting Macrocosmos to attack with and heals based on the damage those affected by Macrocosmos have taken.
SCH used to have Shadowflare to deal damage and slow enemies as a form of mitigation.
WHM's entire Lily system is pretty much the idea of rewarding Healing with DPS.

Why can't these be expanded on?

It's not as though there isn't a plethora of ways to mitigate damage so why can't there be a way to incorporate them into new offensive skills for healers?

Say, for example, Aqua Veil is now a GCD damage attack that has the same potency as Glare but also grants a 15% damage reduction to the Tank. Would this be any different than the current form of Aqua Veil being weaved in between Glare? I would still need to hit the button for Aqua Veil in both situations and the skill could be given a CD similarly to other GCD skills that have their own CD, like Air Anchor on MCH, so that I can't simply replace Glare with this GCD version of Aqua Veil and gain permanent mitigation. It would require that I plan its usage more careful since I wouldn't simply be able to cancel casting glare to use Aqua Veil in time for a Tank buster but isn't that part of being a better healer, where you learn how to best utilize your CDs to make a run smoother? So, why can't we have a system that works like that for healers when there's already a precedence for it?

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Well reasoned, except for the part where you put words in my mouth. I never said I want boring. I never said healing was boring. That was all you. I said that it's unreasonable for some players to cry for change in a working system that is already very important and engaging. I said that changing the way healers do damage seems greatly unnecessary since the damage they do seems to be in a good place. I said that healers should always focus first on healing and that over complicating their dps systems JUST FOR THE SAKE OF OVER COMPLICATING THEM seems really dumb to me when, clearly, not everyone wants that.

If you're bored with healing that's between you and your chosen play style. Maybe you should take a break til you can play Sage, which seems to have been made more complicated just for those who want a more challenging class...

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I get what you're saying. I do.


BUT

Healers DOOOOOO have dps abilities already. Several, actually. They can and do contribute, even though it was stated that it should never be considered necessary for success. It's even been stated many times that they are even better at doing damage than tanks. So this ability to push themselves to be better in the available windows of down time is already clearly there. Its just ...IRRITATING to read about people complaining about, essentially, how EASY and boring it is to do great dps while effortlessly healing like it's some huge problem.

That's why I feel like people really just don't know what it is they want. MORE CAKE!

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Here is my interpretation of that sentence:

You're irritated to read about people complaining that healing is easy and boring as if that were a problem. To me, this reads as you affirming the statement that healing is both "easy and boring," and find that to be a selling point of the role rather than a design flaw, which would mean that I am not putting words in your mouth. That said, if this was poorly worded from that former post, and you would like to further clarify your stance, then you're welcome to do so and we can discuss that from there.

In addition to that, I'd like to point out that we've already discussed how "focus(ing) on healing" is not mutually exclusive to having engaging DPS mechanics. You keep saying this is for the sake of over complicating healers when that's blatantly untrue. I don't know how much more I can say this before it sticks, but what we want is a way to make healing more fun to play regardless of whether there is or is not a reason to heal in a way that does not put pressure on casual players.

The "Does not put pressure on casual players" part is already something that exists in the game by the fact that healer DPS optimization is extremely lax to the point that it's entirely optional outside of EX, Savage, Ultimate, and Unreal. I would hope that everyone at least try of course, but as long as you're doing at least something when healing isn't needed, you'll cruise by any casual content with ease regardless. For all I care, completely ignore any additional DPS buttons and continue to spam Glare. In the example I gave, the difference in your Parse vs mine wouldn't really be that big of a gap.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Ooooh, burnnnnn!

Except you're dead wrong because this is my new main. Only thing you're right about is that I haven't done eden savage because I'm focusing on assisting new players in my FC who came over from WoW and also on farming gil for the expac. I've played since the tail end of ARR.

lol /golfclap. sit down.

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Funny, I'm doing the same thing, on my third alt. I've bought houses for three other people and I don't even craft properly. Said third alt is for my sister's first time playing this, and she literally quit White Mage because she found it both frustrating and boring. I've been playing since 2.3. Took AST and SMN into Gordias at their worst and got clears on both as my first foray into raiding period. I still think healers were better back then in spite of me being worse at the game and when I explained to her why she moved onto Dancer and AST with zero hesitation. She agrees that she'd prefer more support aspects (I told her AST did that in place of having DPS spells at one point but still has the same problem) but she would rather not heal if all there is to it is filler DPS spell spam.

If a casual player can recognize where the design problems are once they're shown a few examples, you can manage it.

Should probably delete the part where you bought houses for other ppl...it implies things.

As for the rest. What your sister, or you, consider a problem doesn't matter a pickle to me.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Here is my interpretation of that sentence:

You're irritated to read about people complaining that healing is easy and boring as if that were a problem. To me, this reads as you affirming the statement that healing is both "easy and boring," and find that to be a selling point of the role rather than a design flaw, which would mean that I am not putting words in your mouth. That said, if this was poorly worded from that former post, and you would like to further clarify your stance, then you're welcome to do so and we can discuss that from there.

In addition to that, I'd like to point out that we've already discussed how "focus(ing) on healing" is not mutually exclusive to having engaging DPS mechanics. You keep saying this is for the sake of over complicating healers when that's blatantly untrue. I don't know how much more I can say this before it sticks, but what we want is a way to make healing more fun to play regardless of whether there is or is not a reason to heal in a way that does not put pressure on casual players.

The "Does not put pressure on casual players" part is already something that exists in the game by the fact that healer DPS optimization is extremely lax to the point that it's entirely optional outside of EX, Savage, Ultimate, and Unreal. I would hope that everyone at least try of course, but as long as you're doing at least something when healing isn't needed, you'll cruise by any casual content with ease regardless. For all I care, completely ignore any additional DPS buttons and continue to spam Glare. In the example I gave, the difference in your Parse vs mine wouldn't really be that big of a gap.

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You interpreted wrong. Clearly wrong. It's others complaining about how boring it is, which is why they apparently need more sparkly button distractions. I really can't see how you'd think by now that I found healing boring. Seems like less poor wording on my part and more poor reading on yours.

Would I consider boring healing a problem? Perhaps, but I never have considered healing boring. And even if I did I would not advocate for change.