Can SQ-EN draw a line in the sand w/ 3rd Parties?

I remember that Yoshi.P promise to implement Addons at the 2.0, we have never heard about it then. I think people were waiting on thoses for too long...

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

I remember that Yoshi.P promise to implement Addons at the 2.0, we have never heard about it then. I think people were waiting on thoses for too long...

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They also promised more egi glams lol, some promises don't hold much weight.

The line is already drawn. They are not allowed, full stop. SE just isn't willing to invest money into fighting the issue yet. About the time people start making them required for parties and negatively affecting the community, then SE might start stomping on toes.

Basically it boils down to which arms war SE wants to fight. The one with Third Party making the game trivial so they have to buff up encounters like WoW dose, or the one where they are playing whack a mole with the flavor of the month add-on.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Callouts is fine imo, it doesn't hurt anyone. Some people might need that guidance for whatever reason. Automarkers is bit much, agreed.

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My feeling on Cactbot's callouts is that they ought to be a sanity-check on your own read of mechanics. But that's my feeling on a static's raid-caller calling mechanics too; there's nothing wrong with it, it helps folks be organized, but you ought to be reading the mechanics yourself regardless. If you can't do a fight without Cactbot callouts, that's a problem. I'm just not sure it's a bigger problem -- or, for that matter, a fundamentally different problem -- than if you can't do the fight if your static's raid-caller has to miss a week or has laryngitis.

(Mind you, Cactbot is admittedly less likely to make the occasional incorrect call than, say, me. As I've remarked in these threads before: sure, I said "west", but I meant your other west. You know, what's it called... right, "east", yeah, that's the one.)

As soon as you have triggers that are dropping markers on people or doing anything in an automated manner, though, that's well beyond what even the best human raid-caller can do. I feel like that stuff's really far less okay. As an engineer, I know there's not a lot they can do to stop it which wouldn't cause other -- probably far, far larger -- problems, especially not without investing a lot of time and energy into things. (Preventing mob markers from being set in-combat would prevent that, for instance, but it would also prevent anyone from clicking a button to put a 'Target to attack #1' marker over someone's head in PvP, or to note to first-timers that this is the moogle add you need to take down now in Thornmarch, or whatever else. Which arguably would be more detrimental to the game than the current use of automated triggers is.)

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

If people can't help themselves from using add-ons they aren't supposed to, maybe the community need to turn the World First race into two categories. World First (mods, add-ons) and World First (No mods/add-ons).

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No world first team plays without addons for long (until tools update) and there is no significant interest in having a no-addon WF category, so nobody does it. You also can't enforce it, because hiding the addons from stream is trivial.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I don't mind if people are using it, but I have seen raid leaders making the addons mandatory for joining the group.

I remember back in Wow, this started small and then it became a mandatory or else you would not be invited.

I don't want this to happen to Final Fantasy XIV.

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Pretty sure it falls under alot of their same feelings with damage meters.

https://i.imgur.com/KfZ8mmn.png

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

My feeling on Cactbot's callouts is that they ought to be a sanity-check on your own read of mechanics. But that's my feeling on a static's raid-caller calling mechanics too; there's nothing wrong with it, it helps folks be organized, but you ought to be reading the mechanics yourself regardless. If you can't do a fight without Cactbot callouts, that's a problem. I'm just not sure it's a bigger problem -- or, for that matter, a fundamentally different problem -- than if you can't do the fight if your static's raid-caller has to miss a week or has laryngitis.

(Mind you, Cactbot is admittedly less likely to make the occasional incorrect call than, say, me. As I've remarked in these threads before: sure, I said "west", but I meant your other west. You know, what's it called... right, "east", yeah, that's the one.)

As soon as you have triggers that are dropping markers on people or doing anything in an automated manner, though, that's well beyond what even the best human raid-caller can do. I feel like that stuff's really far less okay. As an engineer, I know there's not a lot they can do to stop it which wouldn't cause other -- probably far, far larger -- problems, especially not without investing a lot of time and energy into things. (Preventing mob markers from being set in-combat would prevent that, for instance, but it would also prevent anyone from clicking a button to put a 'Target to attack #1' marker over someone's head in PvP, or to note to first-timers that this is the moogle add you need to take down now in Thornmarch, or whatever else. Which arguably would be more detrimental to the game than the current use of automated triggers is.)

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Yep, absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

My feeling on Cactbot's callouts is that they ought to be a sanity-check on your own read of mechanics. But that's my feeling on a static's raid-caller calling mechanics too; there's nothing wrong with it, it helps folks be organized, but you ought to be reading the mechanics yourself regardless. If you can't do a fight without Cactbot callouts, that's a problem. I'm just not sure it's a bigger problem -- or, for that matter, a fundamentally different problem -- than if you can't do the fight if your static's raid-caller has to miss a week or has laryngitis.

(Mind you, Cactbot is admittedly less likely to make the occasional incorrect call than, say, me. As I've remarked in these threads before: sure, I said "west", but I meant your other west. You know, what's it called... right, "east", yeah, that's the one.)

As soon as you have triggers that are dropping markers on people or doing anything in an automated manner, though, that's well beyond what even the best human raid-caller can do. I feel like that stuff's really far less okay. As an engineer, I know there's not a lot they can do to stop it which wouldn't cause other -- probably far, far larger -- problems, especially not without investing a lot of time and energy into things. (Preventing mob markers from being set in-combat would prevent that, for instance, but it would also prevent anyone from clicking a button to put a 'Target to attack #1' marker over someone's head in PvP, or to note to first-timers that this is the moogle add you need to take down now in Thornmarch, or whatever else. Which arguably would be more detrimental to the game than the current use of automated triggers is.)

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If they could implement a legit caller, it could help them into making fight harder.
To be honest, this is a game where you can take away from the game from some time, and once you come back, you get to forget everything. This tools can be use as a reminder.
There's to much mechanic in this game... for a new tank, for exemple, it can be hard to keep up with strategy.

Also, you can't have eyes on everything, i remember Twintania, when you had to pack up, but was unable to see who has the Greenish marker, someone in the raid was using ACT to get a bip to announce that you have to run.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

If people can't help themselves from using add-ons they aren't supposed to, maybe the community need to turn the World First race into two categories. World First (mods, add-ons) and World First (No mods/add-ons).

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Pretty much my thoughts on this. Every team trying for World First should be willing to declare exactly which tools they are going to use to the organizer (Frosty, generally) and he can include that in the team listing. They wouldn't even need to separate categories; just have the tools and modifications listed right next to the team name. If the team is willing to put a tool or mod next to their name and still compete then fine, and if a viewer wants to consider that a valid clear then fine. No fuss, no muss. But if they're not willing to put a mod or tool next to their name then that's basically an admission that they are at the least not proud of their achievement.

If you want to juice to win the home run title then you can't complain if you end up with an asterisk next to your name in the record book.

Here's a friendly reminder that SE sowed the seeds for all of this when they built an end game rigidly focused around tight DPS but failed to provide even the most basic of tools for players to actually get some kind of an accurate gauge on how well they were doing relative to their peers and other classes.

I raid with timeline post it notes stuck to my screen during prog. If a turn is particularly stubborn we'll also have someone call important mechanics on TS. The auto callout stuff is the same with less effort IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Jekyll

This thread is placing cactbot on a pedestal if we think it is materially different than a person doing calls. Every single savage fight in the game is scripted in terms of which attacks come out at which point in time.

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To each their own, so it is whatever.
I personally have to ask myself at what point I'm handing to much stuff over to a third party and I'm not really playing the game anymore. I'm not saying a certain mod does or doesn't do it, but, I prefer to have as little... interference(?) as possible, if that makes sense. But that's something everyone has to decide for themselves, I guess.

But if sentiments were to change and suddenly people were demanding it id definitely be against it out of principle alone. So far it doesn't concern me.

I find it awkward how many people seem to be overlooking the fact that Cactbot is literally cheating because it calls out mechanics before it's physically possible to identify what they're doing. It is not simply doing a player's job automatically.

A prime example of this as already mentioned was with A11S and the Optical Sight variants which do not actually telegraph which one is being used until the cast is around half finished, meaning you effectively have twice as much time to get to a safe zone.

It's even worse with debuff spam sequences like Hello World where you can't normally can't tell what debuffs you'll be getting until after the lengthy cast resolves.

If you need to rely on a program to cal out a scripted fight to you so you can clear, then that clear wasn't yours. How is that even fun?

If the addons don't affect me, I don't particularly care about their usage. Cactbot is able to call some mechanics (swapping platforms in Diamond, Thanjit's Red/Blue mechanic) before the visual indication occurs, which I do think is an issue albeit it's not such an issue that I care about people using it.I just don't want to. It's a personal thing, partly for the learning aspect and partly because it gives me a little pride boost I'll admit.

Pretty much anything else I know of doesn't really matter, botting and script programs and gameplay automation I'm not for (or cheats that provide things like infinite sprint, etc...). But if it's just a UI layout, a damage meter, a running timeline even (considering I could, if I felt like I need to, throw up a timeline on a second monitor and follow along), or the automated callouts (and it'd be nice if the bot could, at least, be tweaked to call things as a player would reasonably be able to see these things)... I don't really care if people use them or not. Some people rely on various third party tools for accessibility reasons, some people rely on them because they do make the content easier in respects they don't find fun to be difficult (nael quotes), sometimes it's just a cosmetic aid -- like UI, and sometimes it's for pretty important information (ACT).

If someone beats UWU with the gaol auto-number thing, I don't care. If someone didn't, they shouldn't really care -- you both achieved your own achievements in the way you both felt was best to do so for yourselves, personally.

So long as content isn't designed around the usage of these tools, it's fine. You can use them, or not use them. If some static's RL demands you to, just... don't play with them? Like it's pretty easy to find a group who doesn't have that requirement. And if somehow none did? Just PF it. Or make your own static.

I think it's a pretty dumb thing to get heated over, to be quite honest. There's some light discussion to be had, sure, but the people who act like there's a moral position about it all are really fuckin weird.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I find it awkward how many people seem to be overlooking the fact that Cactbot is literally cheating because it calls out mechanics before it's physically possible to identify what they're doing. It is not simply doing a player's job automatically.

A prime example of this as already mentioned was with A11S and the Optical Sight variants which do not actually telegraph which one is being used until the cast is around half finished, meaning you effectively have twice as much time to get to a safe zone.

It's even worse with debuff spam sequences like Hello World where you can't normally can't tell what debuffs you'll be getting until after the lengthy cast resolves.

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I definitely do think that's cheating but the actual effect it has is honestly minor. The key factor here is that those encounters are designed without cactbot, meaning that once you know the fight and the variants the attacks have, the advantage someone using cactbot has pretty much just goes away.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I definitely do think that's cheating but the actual effect it has is honestly minor. The key factor here is that those encounters are designed without cactbot, meaning that once you know the fight and the variants the attacks have, the advantage someone using cactbot has pretty much just goes away.

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No it doesn't, because you can always use that extra reaction time to preposition. The advantage is ever present, and allows more DPS to be done because there's more leeway to squeeze stuff out.

On a somewhat related note, the reason that this kind of a thing is a problem is because people have egos. People will cheat all day long, look at people not cheating barely making it through mechanical checks or doing less DPS than them, and then rag on them hard, "You suck! I rule. This is so easy, why can't you do it? Git Gud." Etc.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

No it doesn't, because you can always use that extra reaction time to preposition. The advantage is ever present, and allows more DPS to be done because there's more leeway to squeeze stuff out.

On a somewhat related note, the reason that this kind of a thing is a problem is because people have egos. People will cheat all day long, look at people not cheating barely making it through mechanical checks or doing less DPS than them, and then rag on them hard, "You suck! I rule. This is so easy, why can't you do it? Git Gud." Etc.

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Prepositioning does not make that big of a difference. In stuff like the intermediate relativity or hello world, prepositioning is far less important than just doing the sequence correctly. Sure, technically the effect is present but it is a lot less than people think it is. Having an mmo mouse with like 12 buttons or something is going to be a lot more of an advantage and everyone is just fine with that. Missing one GCD because you moved out earlier is not going to cost you the run, something else did. Once you start to go for log runs, you'll have to learn the fight anyway and then the extra reaction time starts to become meaningless aswell.

Cactbot is a shortcut through learning but that's effectively it.

People being toxic about it is something entirely different or do you want to claim that people who dont use cactbot cant be toxic about someone messing up mechanics? Like you dont need a parser to see someone doing bad damage if you know the job they play.

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Originally Posted by Arrhin

If you need to rely on a program to cal out a scripted fight to you so you can clear, then that clear wasn't yours. How is that even fun?

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I'm sure people who use cactbot still are happy about the clear. While you might not think it's fun, they might.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I find it awkward how many people seem to be overlooking the fact that Cactbot is literally cheating because it calls out mechanics before it's physically possible to identify what they're doing.

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I'm not sure I'd go as far to call it cheating tbh but to each their own. The way cactbot works is by a established timeline. Meaning it know when something comes up from the scripted fight. Someone had to create the timeline in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Prepositioning does not make that big of a difference. In stuff like the intermediate relativity or hello world, prepositioning is far less important than just doing the sequence correctly.

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While I agree with you that the advantage of an early call is likely pretty minimal, I do feel like Intermediate's probably a bad example; I'm fairly sure that Cactbot can't call that one early because the debuffs almost certainly appear visually in your status indicators at the same time that Cactbot would be able to detect them. (Now, I suspect it probably shows you the order to do them in, so you don't have the oh-so-common mistake of someone reading the order of execution backwards, but I don't think it can do so early.)

Now, I suspect that it can call something like the Titan markers in p1 early, because there's an animation (which takes time) putting the marker over your head. So I'd not be surprised if Cactbot could call that a second or so earlier than the marker being fully-visible over your head, allowing you to move to your appropriate spot faster and maybe get in one or two more GCDs. (Though I also feel like if you've run E12S enough times, you start to recognize the color over your head when it's just a tiny little blob, well before it resolves into the full shape, so the gap between "human recognition" and "Cactbot" probably narrows quite a bit.)

So while, I can see an argument that it gives an advantage over a raid-caller -- especially since not all mechanics will be called by a raid-caller. (I'm sure as heck not calling your debuffs during Intermediate or your marker during p1 Titan.) I'm just also not honestly sure I care, if that makes sense. For the world-first races, no one will have dissected the fight enough yet to have written the scripts for Cactbot (so it's not like a team can benefit from it), and other than for world-first races, I suppose I just don't think it matters that much.

Now, I really do dislike the 'place markers automatically on people' aspect of things, mind you. But I don't think there's a practical way to stop it (at least, without causing much, much bigger problems), and at least I feel like it doesn't affect me directly.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

I'm not sure I'd go as far to call it cheating tbh but to each their own. The way cactbot works is by a established timeline. Meaning it know when something comes up from the scripted fight. Someone had to create the timeline in the first place.

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Cactbot is not functioning strictly off a timeline and is reading information like spell IDs that are being sent to the game client, otherwise it wouldn't be able to make advance callouts for vague and random mechanics like Nael's AoE combos and Optical Sight that rely on visual tells that a bot would obviously not be able to see.

Firstly, I think people who don't raid Savage or Ultimate should take a seat. You do not know how those fights work. You do not know how Cactbot works. You are just pearl clutching.

I don't think people who use Cactbot are necessarily cheating, but I do think the crutch makes them worse players. If you're in a PF group for Savage and something goes sideways, you can tell who doesn't really know the fight as well as they should at that stage of prog based on whether or not they're adjusting for other players' mistakes to save the run. I also think it's a bit of a gray area with calling mechanics earlier than you can see them. The reason I think it's a gray area is because players with low ping literally see tells and mechanics before players with high ping do, and they also have more time to adjust their position; I didn't actually realize this until I raided with someone doing callouts who had much better ping than mine, because he was making the calls for E11S safe colors before the animations even started on my screen, and he does not use any third party callout tools. Does that mean that Cactbot is an equalizer between low and high ping players? I saw someone say that before COVID prompted working from home, the game was tested on 0ms delay. Assuming that's true, the fights weren't designed for the absurdly short reaction times Brazilian players are given, especially in Ultimate fights. You cannot talk about fairness in reading mechanics in faster paced high level fights without talking about ping advantage, particularly in cases of dramatic differences in latency.

I think there is also a disrespect for other players' preferences going on here. Some people, like myself, value figuring the fight out like a puzzle and learning the mechanics organically. Other people value their execution of the fight first and foremost. They don't care about figuring out what the mechanics do and how. They care about handling the mechanics optimally and pushing their performance to the limit. It's unfair and unproductive to police other people for getting different things out of a game than you do. If you're not in a party with the people using Cactbot, why does it matter? If you're paranoid about other people in your party using Cactbot, put together a group of people who you know aren't using it to clear with you. It isn't that deep.

As Sotaris has patiently explained multiple times, Cactbot is not a magical, psychic force that knows what every mechanic is automatically with no help, and it has no bearing on competitive world first prog. Players develop timelines and figure out how to programmatically read mechanics from the client, and THEN the callouts are worked into Cactbot.

Is Cactbot a tool which is cheat ? hummm let s see and ask the question to Mrs SMITH, teacher from the school class called « Airport». This year is the concours call « EDEN GARDEN » with a choregraphy spectacle against another school of the Teacher Mr BRIAN from the class « In The Kitchen ».

The 8 students of Mrs Smith have learned the dance alone in few weeks and done the choregraphy in 9 minutes with a pupil who call the dance, with a lot of fails but they suceed it was not perfect but all of this little pupils have done it.

The 8 students of Mr BRIAN have learn and done their choregraphy faster with Cactbot and in 8 minutes without a raid leader, only with a tool

Which class will deserve the applause at the end ?

Sorry for my english

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Originally Posted by Coupain

Is Cactbot a tool which is cheat ?

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In my opinion, no. It only gives you a callout information either visibly or through TTS (text to speech), you still have to act on it and play the game and do the mechanic.
Cactbot is not going to make a bad player a good player.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

If you wanted difficulty, you would not use ANY tools to make the fights easier. Instead, they get used, then people brag about how they can clear this content while berating anyone who can't.

If you really wanted difficult fights, you wouldn't even need a reward for finishing them. You just want to show off, not have an actual challenge.

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I do want difficult fights. I don't use tools. Not even in Ultimate. All of your strawmen fall flat at my feet because you're conflating two different viewpoints into one and assigning them to a generalized "you."

As for your second paragraph, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You don't like that people like to get trophies to show off their achievements? Too bad, welcome to the human race. Even the Olympics hand out medals but they should just be fine showing off. Most people are extrinsically motivated.

They already do.

Don't ask, don't tell.
Don't be an a$$hat with it.

Why is it so hard to understand?

Ye SE is never going to do anything about 3rd party programs as long as you're not openly admitting to using them with in-game chat.

I'm kind of surprised by the initial responses though. This thread very heavily focused on the streamer side of the discussion, no illegal anti-cheat is needed when the perpetrator is actively breaking ToS and is publicly incriminating themselves with video evidence. I mean really SE can ban you for whatever reason they want it's just a matter of benefits. They benefit more from doing nothing than something.

I can say from experience if you're not deterred by the annoying set up of these 3rd party programs then you probably want the game to be easier in some way shape or form or want to circumvent a mechanic/something.
Whether that's "good" or "bad" isn't something I would personally weigh in on.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

This thread very heavily focused on the streamer side of the discussion, no illegal anti-cheat is needed when the perpetrator is actively breaking ToS and is publicly incriminating themselves with video evidence.

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This is (likely) never happen since SE even congratulate some raiders and they openly uses ACT.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

This is (likely) never happen since SE even congratulate some raiders and they openly uses ACT.

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If this is true then SE should just allow all these 3rd party addons.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

If this is true then SE should just allow all these 3rd party addons.

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I would actually feel a lot better if they would just allow the addons or actually enforce their own TOS. Why is it so hard for them?

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Originally Posted by Laerune

If this is true then SE should just allow all these 3rd party addons.

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No. Why should they? Yoshi-P is 100% right when he says that allowing them would lead to toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Just let people play the game. What does it take away from your experience?
It's not giving them any sort of competitive advantage, since those tools do not work during the world first race.
If anything needs to be done to prevent that, it is for the fights to be more randomized.
As a console player, I really could not care less what addons people are using, as long as they enjoy the game.
If those addons help them enjoying it more, good for them.

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I'm sure they once said that in WoW also.. and then Blizzard started designing everything with the assumption that everyone was using it. Thus leading to these 'tools' becoming mandatory. If you see someone using cactbot, like say, a streamer, you report them. If you don't, you're part of the problem.

Amazing how people still blame current wow on the... Addons. Not the mis-management and their own weird... Mindgoblins :D

The earlier you realize you've been the problem in the community, the quicker you can come to terms with it and uh...

Maybe you'll stop wanting to dictate how people play/enjoy the game?

Also, am talking very general here and not about someone specific in this thread.

So yeah, let people play the way they want.

They have made their stance clear on it, but it doesn't stop people doing it.

My opinion on third party tools is that I'm okay with them as long as they don't compromise the game or allow people to cheat or gain an unfair advantage.

When it comes to tracking tool, I'd probably draw the line at a DPS meter to only judge your own performance to improve or somebody else's only if they solicit it. I agree with Yoshi P on the point if they allowed it you'd see it get abused.

As for call outs, I can see why it's a tough one because yes, you might have a raid leader doing the callouts for you but I feel like a computer will always have an efficiency advantage a human is not able to provide and as said computer is a violation of the ToS it does mean the rule breakers are at a better advantage, they don't need a raid leader or they can skip some of the hardwork of learning a fight without one.

But, people keep referring to Cactbot, so I have looked it up to see what exactly it does, but I can see a few features on there I would definitely consider cheating.

There's timers and timelines on screen for mechanics and that's not the same as having somebody call out on VC. It has death and mistake reporting. It has a raid boss simulator. It has automatic Eureka NM tracking. It has a radar for hunt mobs.

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

Amazing how people still blame current wow on the... Addons. Not the mis-management and their own weird... Mindgoblins :D

The earlier you realize you've been the problem in the community, the quicker you can come to terms with it and uh...

Maybe you'll stop wanting to dictate how people play/enjoy the game?

Also, am talking very general here and not about someone specific in this thread.

So yeah, let people play the way they want.

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Only.. they're still breaking the rules. It doesn't matter if one thinks there's 'harm' in it or not. They are still breaking the rules, 3rd party software is not allowed or condoned. The only existing thing is the 'don't ask don't tell' policy, mostly because they can't and won't install spyware on your system. Doesn't mean that anyone who sees someone using 3rd party software isn't completely, one hundred percent right for reporting it.

Problem is they likely not to act on such a report where a streamer show off ACT or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

If this is true then SE should just allow all these 3rd party addons.

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If this happens... RIP console users.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Problem is they likely not to act on such a report where a streamer show off ACT or whatever.

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Oh I agree, it's not likely they'll hammer down a streamer just because they got ACT on their screen. But I suspect it'll be rather different with things that do quite obviously skirt the lines of acceptability, like Cactbot.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Ye SE is never going to do anything about 3rd party programs as long as you're not openly admitting to using them with in-game chat.

I'm kind of surprised by the initial responses though. This thread very heavily focused on the streamer side of the discussion, no illegal anti-cheat is needed when the perpetrator is actively breaking ToS and is publicly incriminating themselves with video evidence. I mean really SE can ban you for whatever reason they want it's just a matter of benefits. They benefit more from doing nothing than something.

I can say from experience if you're not deterred by the annoying set up of these 3rd party programs then you probably want the game to be easier in some way shape or form or want to circumvent a mechanic/something.
Whether that's "good" or "bad" isn't something I would personally weigh in on.

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If I understood correctly in the past, isn’t SE not going to take external sources such as those videos because of the possibility of being ‘doctored’?

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

Oh I agree, it's not likely they'll hammer down a streamer just because they got ACT on their screen. But I suspect it'll be rather different with things that do quite obviously skirt the lines of acceptability, like Cactbot.

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I'd guess no but not sure if we ever had a example being made of someone streaming and using cactbot.
iirc they did crack down on people who used the auto markers though so there is some they are intolerante against, unless I imagined that.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

If I understood correctly in the past, isn’t SE not going to take external sources such as those videos because of the possibility of being ‘doctored’?

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More of less, that's the main reason I believe they aren't doing anything against people announcing sell runs on PF and refer to Discord servers for further discussion.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I did every roles callouts for my group during coil.

I've also done it in e12s, just off memorization of the fight.

And I have a shoddy memory. People with much better memory than me play this game.

I dislike cactbot, but I think people who don't raid are overinflating it's importance here.

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Nonsense. You did not do individual callouts, not in the way Cactbot does it. It does way more than you, as a caller, can ever hope to do.

"Wind out, ice in" during Intermediate Relativity is not the type of callout I'm talking about. This is simply calling the order of the timers on those mechanics.

You did not whisper in the ear of every single player in your party telling them where to go at every step of the mechanic.