The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

You have to be considerate!

I've been running DNC a lot lately instead of WHM and I see this all the time in Leveling Roulette. DPS and healers running ahead of the sprout tank who was Viewing Cutscene when we zoned in or Rescuing them into mobs. And when the topic comes up on forums like these or in XIV groups, it's always "I'm pulling for them cause THEY GONE LEARN TODAY".

When I run WHM, I let them pull to their comfort level and let them know I've got their back if they want to experiment. Some don't and that's fine. I just adjust to help dps more since I don't need to heal as much. And some do and I support them as they work things out. We may wipe a time or two but often they try again knowing what they need to adjust and then they get it. I don't believe in all this nonsense about forcing people out of their comfort zones just because of what someone *else* wants them to do. There are ways to encourage tanks or healers or dps without being an impolite jerk about it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is my problem with the general mindset of the forum tanking police. There's no bar indicating that people who small pull aren't ready to be tanking at a higher level; that's just some crap you all made up. Small pulling tanks clear the content moderately slower, but they clear it all the same. There's no requirement here; this isn't a company you own and the tanks you queue with aren't job applicants. Your made up rules and expectations don't matter.

I don't think large pulls are unreasonably difficult for tanks, or anything like that, but I do think that if you REALLY care that much you should either man up and tank yourself, or start a PF group where you get to make the rules. Otherwise when you queue with randoms you get what you get.

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Very true. In addition the most challenging thing tanks do before savage level is big pulls in leveling dungeons. When it comes to trials, bosses and raids you can't lose hate, you can easily survive without using a single cooldown and the vast majority of mechanics are aimed at anyone but the tank and even if they hit you you're the tank, you shrug them off, easily. The idea that if you don't like W2W pulling in one of the trickier dungeons you can't tank trials or raids is not even close to true. The easiest role in most of those fights is the tank.

Thing with tanks their core gameplay loop does not differ from two packs to 85 packs pop cooldowns avoid bad and aoe.

So in the end most the burden is on the healer so if the healer wants large pulls tank has no excuse to not try at the very least.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

I think the trouble lies within your thread title as it is over exaggerating on the problem. No one ever says it is "Mandatory". No one can't force you. Is it the norm in general? It is but for experienced players not new. But I've yet to see myself anyone tell someone new that W2W pulls are "Mandatory" and have to be done.

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Problem is that they do say it, without using words. They run ahead of the tank and pull more mobs. Or healers rescue them into more packs. They don't put their big kid pants on and try to communicate. They just try to force someone to do what they want them to do with rude behavior.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I don't expect sprouts to pull big in low-level dungeons. They're still learning the game. I try to offer advice, but if I wanted the dungeon tanked my way that badly, I'd queue as tank and do it myself.

By Stormblood dungeons, though, I expect players to know how much they can handle and go for it.

Except for Bardam's Mettle. That one's still fairly brutal.

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Pretty much this. By lvl 50 you have all the basic tools at your tank disposal to be doing big pulls, double pulls bare minimum.

You're actively hurting the group if you don't.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is my problem with the general mindset of the forum tanking police. There's no bar indicating that people who small pull aren't ready to be tanking at a higher level; that's just some crap you all made up. Small pulling tanks clear the content moderately slower, but they clear it all the same. There's no requirement here; this isn't a company you own and the tanks you queue with aren't job applicants. Your made up rules and expectations don't matter.

I don't think large pulls are unreasonably difficult for tanks, or anything like that, but I do think that if you REALLY care that much you should either man up and tank yourself, or start a PF group where you get to make the rules. Otherwise when you queue with randoms you get what you get.

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The bar is you're literally useless in Expert dungeon if you're pulling small. It's basic mathematics. The outgoing damage is so low, DPS and healers can comfortably survive pulling three mobs. At that point, you're no longer a tank but a gimped DPS. Hence why the standard practice in DF is pulling everything. Or at least pulling two packs bare minimum.

Ironically, you say to start a PF but in the case of majority rule, it's someone who prefers small pulls who should be creating PF since they're largely in the minority. Furthermore, with the advent of Trusts, you have a system tailor made for players who prefer going at their own pace. If Trusts take too long, well, there's a reason people still largely prefer DF. And I do play tanks, primarily so I never have to worry about pull sizes.

At the end of the day, if the dev team wants players to stop with the "speed run every dungeon" mentality. They need to actually make trash mobs threatening. People didn't decide to randomly speed run dungeons. They realized how laughably easy most are and adjusted accordingly.

Something else to keep in mind when doing very large pulls. Monsters don't stack on top of each other. Because of this it's possible when pulling large groups for some monsters to not get hit by the tank's AoE skills. It also can impact DPS output as some monsters have a footprint that is almost the size of most circular AoE. As such there are some situations where doing a large pull accomplishes little more than making the healer work a lot more and making the DPS dance around more to avoid all the monster AoEs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The bar is you're literally useless in Expert dungeon if you're pulling small. It's basic mathematics. The outgoing damage is so low, DPS and healers can comfortably survive pulling three mobs. At that point, you're no longer a tank but a gimped DPS. Hence why the standard practice in DF is pulling everything. Or at least pulling two packs bare minimum.

Ironically, you say to start a PF but in the case of majority rule, it's someone who prefers small pulls who should be creating PF since they're largely in the minority. Furthermore, with the advent of Trusts, you have a system tailor made for players who prefer going at their own pace. If Trusts take too long, well, there's a reason people still largely prefer DF. And I do play tanks, primarily so I never have to worry about pull sizes.

At the end of the day, if the dev team wants players to stop with the "speed run every dungeon" mentality. They need to actually make trash mobs threatening. People didn't decide to randomly speed run dungeons. They realized how laughably easy most are and adjusted accordingly.

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Aaaaaaaaaaand we're back to talking about expert roulette again, of the hundred or so dungeons in this game we insist on focusing on the easiest two and using them to benchmark. How hard can it be to understand the fundamental difference between content we out gear by 40 ilevels or more and leveling dungeons where players are minimum ilevel?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No. It's saying that most dungeons in this game are so easy you literally don't need a healer to complete them. Therefore, a group with a healer shouldn't have any problems. The solo exception to this are early ARR leveling dungeons and super pulls. I can appreciate a less experienced tank not wanting to pull literally everything in Mt. Gulg or even being slightly intimated by Holminster Switch's second pull. But anything less than two packs means you aren't ready to be tanking at a higher level and should practice either with lower level dungeons or Trusts until you get a feel for the damage and your CD management.

There is absolutely no excuse to small pull Expert, which are laughably easy.

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My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.

I mined warrior a lot in 5.x, recently switched to whm. On expert roulette if tank isn't going wall to wall I just do it myself. I can get a holy off between each heal no prob. Whm tank ftw

I feel like I'm missing out on a sub-culture within this game, because I've never seen someone be suicidal and pull more then their current toolkit can handle more then once without stopping and going; "oh, that's right, I can't do that here, re-adjust."

Perhaps I'm blessed with rosy-tinted glasses. xD

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.

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I'm not displeased, just a little frustrated that no matter how people try to frame this debate it always gets dragged into discussing expert roulette, which has been traditionally W2W since the beginning of the game. I completely agree with your point by the way, using such a niche example to run without a healer isn't a good argument. The issue I wanted to discuss was pressuring learning tanks into a playstyle they are not ready for because players are impatient to finish a roulette. Level sync'd roulette players can indeed pull big in all dungeons, but if you've just hit level 41 and enter Stone Vigil for the first time for the love of all that is holy do not try to W2W pull. You get sync'd to 43 there, so even sync'd you need experience to know what you can and can't pull.

The mantra, that I've seen in this thread many times, is you can pull big in every dungeon simply isn't true in all circumstances. By parroting it constantly on the forums, reddit etc.. it gives new players the mistaken idea that it's expected of tanks, intimidating many into not even trying out tanking and giving others the idea that if they do wipe because they W2W pulled it's obviously everyone else's fault.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Aaaaaaaaaaand we're back to talking about expert roulette again, of the hundred or so dungeons in this game we insist on focusing on the easiest two and using them to benchmark. How hard can it be to understand the fundamental difference between content we out gear by 40 ilevels or more and leveling dungeons where players are minimum ilevel?

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It isn't just Expert though. Leveling dungeons are also mostly a joke. You're not going to have a Warrior solo-ing them per se, but they aren't remotely hard. So let me be more specific, every single 50/60/70/80 and virtually all leveling should be mass pulled for the same reason as Expert: they're all piss easy. The sole exception are low level ARR dungeon like I mentioned in a previous post or the occasional outliner like Bardam's Mettle or Holminster Switch. And in the case of the latter, it's only really the second pull that can be a bit spicy, though it honestly isn't too much. So of the "hundred or so dungeons," you should be pulling everything. Or at least double pulling. Otherwise, you're basically a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.

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No, they aren't. The only "tricky" part about wall pulling is if you attempt super pulls. Pulling every single mob in Bardam's to the three statues before the first boss; spawning the gorilla early in Qitana or do the 12-15 mob pull in Mt. Gulg. These are tricky pulls to handle simply due to the sheer outgoing damage. There has not been a single Expert dungeon except for pre-nerf Baelsar's Wall where wall pulling has every been challenging.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It isn't just Expert though. Leveling dungeons are also mostly a joke. You're not going to have a Warrior solo-ing them per se, but they aren't remotely hard. So let me be more specific, every single 50/60/70/80 and virtually all leveling should be mass pulled for the same reason as Expert: they're all piss easy. The sole exception are low level ARR dungeon like I mentioned in a previous post or the occasional outliner like Bardam's Mettle or Holminster Switch. And in the case of the latter, it's only really the second pull that can be a bit spicy, though it honestly isn't too much. So of the "hundred or so dungeons," you should be pulling everything. Or at least double pulling. Otherwise, you're basically a DPS.

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To be fair, I did mention that "one or two packs is usually enough, depending on the dungeon"
Encouraging a tank to pull two packs is fine, insisting they W2W pull, isn't.

Also, the vast majority of 50/60/70/80 are just previous expert dungeons. The questionable bit really is the leveling dungeons, there are usually 1 or 2 in each expansion that punch harder, and plenty in ARR, where tanks do most of their learning.

If w2w wasn't intended then there would be more artificial barriers. /Thread

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No, they aren't. The only "tricky" part about wall pulling is if you attempt super pulls. Pulling every single mob in Bardam's to the three statues before the first boss; spawning the gorilla early in Qitana or do the 12-15 mob pull in Mt. Gulg. These are tricky pulls to handle simply due to the sheer outgoing damage. There has not been a single Expert dungeon except for pre-nerf Baelsar's Wall where wall pulling has every been challenging.

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Well, I suppose all I can say at this point is "congratulations on being a better tank than I am".

Not sure why I expected anything else on the forums.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

If w2w wasn't intended then there would be more artificial barriers. /Thread

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That's why every dungeons, including expert, are now two-three packs then wall U_U.

The devs know their playerbase well. If they make the dungeons arr style, there would be more fighting within the community since some people want the tank to w2w pull no matter what.

Why not use jp style? Single pull or whatever the group is comfortable of for leveling dungeons. W2w pull for expert, unless someone is really bad.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The bar is you're literally useless in Expert dungeon if you're pulling small. It's basic mathematics. The outgoing damage is so low, DPS and healers can comfortably survive pulling three mobs. At that point, you're no longer a tank but a gimped DPS. Hence why the standard practice in DF is pulling everything. Or at least pulling two packs bare minimum.

Ironically, you say to start a PF but in the case of majority rule, it's someone who prefers small pulls who should be creating PF since they're largely in the minority. Furthermore, with the advent of Trusts, you have a system tailor made for players who prefer going at their own pace. If Trusts take too long, well, there's a reason people still largely prefer DF. And I do play tanks, primarily so I never have to worry about pull sizes.

At the end of the day, if the dev team wants players to stop with the "speed run every dungeon" mentality. They need to actually make trash mobs threatening. People didn't decide to randomly speed run dungeons. They realized how laughably easy most are and adjusted accordingly.

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There is no bar and no one is "literally useless" if the pulls are small. Tank is still holding aggro and taking mitigated damage; Healer is still healing more efficiently than any other class can; the dungeon is still getting completed. Roles not being necessary for small pulls isn't the same as roles being useless.

Also, a majority rules case is what vote kick exists for. The entire point is that the group doesn't ever have to concede to one person's point of view, or one set of arbitrary rules. If you're defaulting to the majority in each individual case that's fine. Saying single pulling doesn't belong in high level content is just self-important nonsense, though. Not your job or your place to decide how everyone else plays.

If you're talking majority rules in general, however, I'd say the majority of players don't care either way and will just roll with whatever is happening. People like you with "strong opinions" on small pulls are generally just a loud minority, hanging out on the forums where they'll get affirmations from similarly dramatic people.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

If w2w wasn't intended then there would be more artificial barriers. /Thread

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I think solutions like that are more akin to locking away the cookie jar. They expect players to show some consideration and teamplay, and only when enough players show they can't, developers will intervene and make it impossible. Instead of pushing boundaries, I'd sooner ask myself: what is expected of me here? In cases where you spend your time with others where the goal is to have relaxing fun together, you respect the wishes of the others as well. This does seem the point of playing FF14 specifically, Yoshida is an obvious crusader for having a fun time over maximum efficiency and I love him for it. Not saying the two can't go hand in hand but I'd argue that that is something more easily and logically accomplished with people you know, not strangers.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

Well, I suppose all I can say at this point is "congratulations on being a better tank than I am".

Not sure why I expected anything else on the forums.

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they're not wrong, though, only a few leveling ones can't be w2w'd in DF

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Okay I'll ask it: proof?

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People do 8 tank ultimates and solo healer TEA, but you don't think 4 dps expert dungeon is possible. Go look up some videos or logs.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.

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Think that is part of the issue only time w2w fails when people fail at their role. More or less the standard those against w2w are putting largely boils down to doing just the bare minimum which should never be the case in group based content we should promote doing the best we possibly can. The barrier for handling w2w pulls in most dungeons is not that high in the first place. Not sure why people think it is some amazing pro gamer playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

They're not actually wrong that it's possible to run level 80 dungeons without a healer. I can attest to this because I've done those runs with folks from my FC for fun. It doesn't always succeed, but it does often enough that it's enjoyable to try.

However, doing so does require a tank who knows their mitigations pretty well and uses them effectively, and three DPS who are going to rain down death upon those pulls to burn them quickly. I would not say it's an easy thing to do with complete strangers, nor the sort of performance that's reasonable to expect from roulette parties.

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Using mitigation and doing your rotation properly should be the bare minimum for anyone playing this game. Anyone not doing that should be kicked.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Yeah I watched some people actually vaporize Heroes in twelve minutes, could have been ten or eleven if DNC hadn't died. My issue is all these people going "hEaLeRs R uSlEs" seem to be under the impression that most if not all players should be doing this. Which is just as likely as me finding Bigfoot using my shower, Captain Caveman cleaning my car, and people on Twitter saying the crap they say on there in real life.

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Hey, at no point did I say Healer's are useless, that's not even the point of the thread or my post. If you wanna make stuff up to fit your narrative and move the goalposts go ahead.

I haven't tanked since late ARR and it's the W2W/rush-rush-rush/impatient points of view that keep me from giving it another go; especially when doing leveling dungeons with synched players running their daily roulettes.

As a new player,(ex wow) currently lvl 70 PLD, I was quite curious what the tanking meta would be.

My initial question was, how does the community react to kite tanking. Will they be upset if I pull mobs out of their ground aoe.

I then realized it’s not kiting per-say, it’s called Wall to Wall.

That being said, if it’s my first time in a dungeon, I simply don’t know when the next wall will be, where the packs are, or if any packs spawn randomly.

I do try to go as fast as the group allows though and pull multiple packs when I can.

Looking forward to learning the dungeons better so that I can start doing wall to wall.

most players won't say anything if you pull mobs out of AOE's, especially in non-cap (50/60/70/80) dungeons because those hit a bit harder than the ones in those - and those that do get mad should be ignored because it's really stupid to get upset about that
whenever I play tank, I use the first pull to gauge the ability/damage of the group, usually it's okay to w2w or pick up 3-4 groups, but if the DPS is low I do smaller pulls, especially if my mitigation hasn't come off cooldown

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I think for me the issue with ‘allknown facts’ like these are that it promotes a mindset where people expect one way of this situation playing out for them, or feel this one way is expected of them. While imho any group content with strangers should be approached with a flexible and unassuming mindset, and the situation dealt with as it is, instead of how it ‘should’ be. Saves a lot of frustration on all sides, whether you are a veteran or a sprout, whether you like fastpaced action or a more chill approach. The content itself may be extremely familiar to you, but the group is not which can affect the content a lot obviously.

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This is the best take so far and I want to believe that it's the silent majority's opinion on it as well. Put simply, "Play to the strengths of your group."

You're playing with strangers, you never know whose on the other side. New, young, old, physical/mental health issues, tired, stressed, etc...

(Also, thank you Nishira, your insight is very refreshing to see on the official forums.)

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Originally Posted by Awha

Think that is part of the issue only time w2w fails when people fail at their role. More or less the standard those against w2w are putting largely boils down to doing just the bare minimum which should never be the case in group based content we should promote doing the best we possibly can. The barrier for handling w2w pulls in most dungeons is not that high in the first place. Not sure why people think it is some amazing pro gamer playstyle.

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Never said it was a pro gamer move or what have you, but when I get a healer in Amaurot who can't keep me up despite me rotating all my CDs, including Arm's Length and Superbolide, W2W probably isn't that much fun for them.

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Originally Posted by Flashock

As a new player,(ex wow) currently lvl 70 PLD, I was quite curious what the tanking meta would be.

My initial question was, how does the community react to kite tanking. Will they be upset if I pull mobs out of their ground aoe.

I then realized it’s not kiting per-say, it’s called Wall to Wall.

That being said, if it’s my first time in a dungeon, I simply don’t know when the next wall will be, where the packs are, or if any packs spawn randomly.

I do try to go as fast as the group allows though and pull multiple packs when I can.

Looking forward to learning the dungeons better so that I can start doing wall to wall.

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I don't think it common for people to complain about you moving things out of enemy AoEs, although player AoEs I imagine may cause minor annoyance depending on who you run into. I typically only move mobs out of necessity (such as incoming damage) once I am settled in. Kiting for the four-mans isn't a particularly common practice if things are going as normal. I remember two notable instances of kiting when it was current content, first in Cutter's Cry (which when I experienced it, it was the healer kiting adds on the first boss) and in Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Normal) to lock trash out before the second boss, but that's all I can recall from the four-man dungeons.

That aside, it's the usual: go as fast as you and your group feels comfortable with. I wall to wall where possible, but I like to do a test pull to gauge the party and adjust as needed or if requested. Once I know the layout, I also try to make it a habit to warn people if I intend to pull to a specific location, or if I'm going to use a wall/pillar LoS ranged to me.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

Never said it was a pro gamer move or what have you, but when I get a healer in Amaurot who can't keep me up despite me rotating all my CDs, including Arm's Length and Superbolide, W2W probably isn't that much fun for them.

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that's on the healer, though, not you

I prefer big pulls, but if the tank and/or healer aren't geared or experienced enough for it, then I'm fine with taking it slower. If someone wants to insist on a mass pull speedrun, you never know what you're getting in a roulette and should form a premade party first.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Using mitigation and doing your rotation properly should be the bare minimum for anyone playing this game. Anyone not doing that should be kicked.

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So, I agree it's the bare minimum for a tank to use their mitigations, just like any job should be doing the basics of what their job is. I'm not sure I agree on the kicked part.

See, while I get exasperated when I see a tank who doesn't seem to use cooldowns (or uses all the cooldowns... at the same time) or a healer who seems to think Cure 1 is a viable healing strategy in level 80 content, I also have enough friends who are fresh to the game and going through stuff that I am aware on a visceral level just how bad this game is at actually teaching a player anything about their job. Even at a fundamental level beyond the most basic parts of their role.

Arm's Length notes on the tooltip that it inflicts "Slow" on mobs that do physical damage to you. I've run into a lot of players who think that means the mobs will move more slowly -- but in FFXIV, that's "Heavy", while "Slow" causes you to attack more slowly/less often. People don't mouseover tooltips (especially when using controller), so while they might recognize that the clock debuff icon is slow-down-the-casts while the person crawling under a heavy weight is moving slower, they won't know the name (and so never even try using Arm's Length as a mitigation). Additionally, the game ain't great at clarifying what's physical versus magical damage; I've seen people use Arm's Length + Reprisal as a mitigation (yay!) during the rare trash pulls that do predominantly magical damage (...less yay).

For black mage, if you stack Swiftcast and Triplecast, they won't consume at the same time. Popping Swiftcast during Triplecast, the Swiftcast "next cast is instant" buff doesn't get eaten until all stacks of Triplecast are gone, meaning you can triplecast, weave Swift in during one of the three instant casts, and have your fourth cast also be instant. Neither ability's tooltip notes this anywhere, at least that I'm aware of; it's easy to assume that if you pop Swiftcast during Triplecast it will just be wasted since things are already instant-casts. Heck, for black mage, even the fact that damage is increased during Astral Fire is only noted in an aside in the job guide (and briefly in the text of the pop-up tooltip when the gauge first appears).

We all may understand that leveling dungeons hit harder than endgame ones, but that's a product of this game's odd gear syncing system and not what many new players would expect -- I've run into a lot of fresh players who assume leveling dungeons will be easier than endgame ones, and so figure that if they can't pull big in Doma Castle, they really shouldn't be pulling big in the Ghimlyt Dark or the Burn. The game doesn't exactly do anything to correct that impression.

The game is not hard to play, but a lot of things we take for granted are things that people find through experimentation (which folks are wary to do in duties with random other folks) or through community knowledge. But a lot of people aren't used to going to places like the Balance, or SaltedXIV, or AhkMorning, or whatever else to read up on the finer fiddly details of jobs and game balance -- and the game does them no favors there in terms of what information it offers.

If you want to learn -- for instance -- a proper black mage rotation at a given level, the game doesn't really give you any useful tools to discover that for yourself.

And we, as a community, can become prone to either exasperation to the point of snappishness ("the tank isn't mitigating properly, so we should kick them, possibly yelling at them first") or wariness ("ugh, fine, whatever -- the tank isn't doing anything they should, but I don't want to get in a confrontation or hear the 'you don't pay my sub' cliche get enacted, so I'm going to just sit here and silently stew until we finish the run").

And while that's understandable, it doesn't do much to help folks learn their job.

I've seen people who tried wall-to-wall pulls in leveling dungeons, watched it go down in flames and freak out a healer, and so get gun-shy and try small pulls going forward; explaining that, no, due to gear sync, endgame dungeons are somewhat counter-intuitively often easier than leveling dungeons (because people will more dramatically outgear them, plus have whatever their expansion capstone ability is) or other bits of advice can help restore their confidence. I've seen healers who tried to heal through giant pulls in early ARR -- well before that's something easily done -- and who became convinced big pulls were suicidal, so simply dug in their heels after that, and who can be shown that big pulls are feasible.

Heck, I've seen folks with transient reasons for small pulls, folks who are thinking "there's construction going on outside my house and it's distracting, and I just don't feel confident in pulling big when I can't focus since I'm not a tank main" or "I'm on Comcast and my connectivity has been godawful today; I'm going to pull smaller so if I get pokeball'd there's a chance the rest of the party can survive."

I'd rather learn why a tank isn't pulling big, and maybe help with their confidence if they're open to it, rather than just judge-and-kick. And maybe they aren't open to it, and sure that can be frustrating when you know a dungeon can easily take half the time you're spending in there... but in the end, it's a game. And I did queue up for a roulette, which inherently is something of a wildcard when it comes to what I'm going to get.

So I'll shrug and power through a slower-than-usual run, because not every run has to be a speed-run. But I'll usually try to figure out what's going on first.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

Never said it was a pro gamer move or what have you, but when I get a healer in Amaurot who can't keep me up despite me rotating all my CDs, including Arm's Length and Superbolide, W2W probably isn't that much fun for them.

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To be fair, I'd argue that Amaurot is another outlier; healers freshly arrived to that dungeon who aren't paying attention to their debuff bar can be caught by surprise at the 30% hit to healing potency they take while a Roiler is up and tethered to them, and I've seen more than one panic and struggle to heal up a tank in the midst of that. And those last two pulls, if you take them wall-to-wall, have a couple of mobs in them which can hit far harder than someone expects to find in a trash pull.

It's not a difficult dungeon to heal or tank, but it's one where I think it's a lot easier for a party of random folks to stumble than most level 80 dungeons are.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I think solutions like that are more akin to locking away the cookie jar. They expect players to show some consideration and teamplay, and only when enough players show they can't, developers will intervene and make it impossible.

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They did intervene, just not in the way we expected. Now we have Trusts, so people just wanting to go through MSQ don't have to put up with nonsense like we see in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

Never said it was a pro gamer move or what have you, but when I get a healer in Amaurot who can't keep me up despite me rotating all my CDs, including Arm's Length and Superbolide, W2W probably isn't that much fun for them.

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I mean I never said you did just that I do not get why people make it seem like w2w is some task that requires great skill.

Also if you were using your tool kit that fail is on the healer not you.

When tanking the Golden rule is never pull harder than the healer can deal with. If you don't know the healer always ask at the start. On this note Healers should also pipe up and say "New to Healing" so the tank can start slowly and build the healer up. I should also say most classes don't have AOE until after level 30, and some don't even get good AOE until 49 or 50 and it's tied to a quest. So be mindful that the DPS might not be able to burn them down at low levels.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

Well, I suppose all I can say at this point is "congratulations on being a better tank than I am".

Not sure why I expected anything else on the forums.

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Correction. I am a more practiced tank then you not necessarily better. There really isn't a skill approach to wall pulls nor are there any tricky tricks. You just do it and rotate your CDs, spacing them out accordingly. If you die, then the healer did something wrong. You mention Amaurot in a subsequent post. If you went through most of your CDs, including Super and still died to a wall pull. That is entirely on the healer having absolutely no idea what they're doing. None of Amaurot's pulls are overly dangerous. Either they were too focused on Holy spam or simply don't know how to heal properly. It could also be the DPS being low, though even then the mobs don't hit that hard. So that would be some single target nonsense.

In either scenario, you weren't the problem. Part of wall pulling is knowing when you did everything correct.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

There is no bar and no one is "literally useless" if the pulls are small. Tank is still holding aggro and taking mitigated damage; Healer is still healing more efficiently than any other class can; the dungeon is still getting completed. Roles not being necessary for small pulls isn't the same as roles being useless.

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If your role is healer and the outgoing damage is so minuscule you literally never press a single heal, then you're functionally a DPS doing less damage. That same logic applies to tanks, though more in Expert as Leveling dungeon may have the occasional "spicy" mob. The point still stands. Both tank and healer only serve a purpose if they're actually, ya know, tanking or healing. If a melee DPS can keep themselves alive with a spot heal every so often, then the tank is mathematically useless. It'd be no different than bring two healers instead of a DPS. Sure, you can do it and clear easily but you're just doing less damage for no reason.

All of this is why you'll see DPS or healers pull. They know the mobs aren't threatening. Which makes small pulls pointless. Furthermore, at 71+, you have access to Trusts, giving an entire system dedicated to players who want to go at their own pace.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Also, a majority rules case is what vote kick exists for. The entire point is that the group doesn't ever have to concede to one person's point of view, or one set of arbitrary rules

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I never said otherwise. You're misconstruing my argument. I mentioned majority rules in the sense of large pulls becoming the standard in DF because people adapted to how little damage mobs deal. That being said, it still applies to the dungeon itself. If I happen to be in a group with three people who wanna take it slow, then I'll either adapt myself or simply leave. Funny enough, it's never happened in all my thousands of dungeon runs. 95% of them are "go fast"

I will say if you’re unwilling or unable to tank or heal large pulls in expert roulette, it’s time for introspection. You’re certainly incompetent, but you can either do better or find something else to play if you don’t want to do better.

If the cause is the healer/tank you’re paired with, then replace them.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If your role is healer and the outgoing damage is so minuscule you literally never press a single heal, then you're functionally a DPS doing less damage. That same logic applies to tanks, though more in Expert as Leveling dungeon may have the occasional "spicy" mob. The point still stands. Both tank and healer only serve a purpose if they're actually, ya know, tanking or healing. If a melee DPS can keep themselves alive with a spot heal every so often, then the tank is mathematically useless. It'd be no different than bring two healers instead of a DPS. Sure, you can do it and clear easily but you're just doing less damage for no reason.

All of this is why you'll see DPS or healers pull. They know the mobs aren't threatening. Which thereby makes small pulls pointless. Furthermore, at 71+, you have access to Trusts.

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Again, useless and unnecessary are 2 different things; you're conflating these concepts. There are technically dungeons that you can wall to wall without a Healer, assuming WAR or PLD tank, so replacing the Healer with another DPS is faster. It doesn't mean healers are useless in those dungeons, just unnecessary. No role in this game is useless, because completing things as fast as possible isn't necessary in any of this content.

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I never said otherwise. You're misconstruing my argument. I mentioned majority rules in the sense of large pulls becoming the standard in DF because people adapted to how little damage mobs deal. That being said, it still applies to the dungeon itself. If I happen to be in a group with three people who wanna take it slow, then I'll either adapt myself or simply leave. Funny enough, it's never happened in all my thousands of dungeon runs. 95% of them are "go fast"

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Majority rules isn't about preference, though; it's about what people are willing to tolerate. If it was as simple as fast run vs. slow run I'd obviously always vote for fast. If it's an uncomfortable Healer/Tank who wants to take it slow, however, I'm perfectly fine voting with them towards a slower run, and the majority of people would likely feel the same. It doesn't happen often that you see a tank in expert taking it slow, but when it does happen the majority of people are content to let it happen.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

There has not been a single Expert dungeon except for pre-nerf Baelsar's Wall where wall pulling has every been challenging.

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The first big pull after the second boss in Hells' Lid could be kinda spicy if you weren't ready for it.