I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

You mean Heavensward??

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No, do you not understand? FFXIV 3.0

Because FFXIV was 1.0, ARR reborn is 2.0 and these hardcore fanboys want the next ff mmo, to be just exactly like FFXIV, which would be FFXIV 3.0, which i say a big NO to,it would burn and die fast, who would want to play another Final Fantasy mmo in another universe that plays just exactly like ffxiv?

Just like people wanted ffxi 2.0 to happen, its not going to happen

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

No, do you not understand?

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No, I did not understand.
Use of the term "3.0" was throwing me off.
Thanks for clearing that up : )

People who prefer FFXI to FFXIV can just play FFXI as it still exists.

I prefer FFXIV in terms of gameplay (job and combat systems) and FFXIV does not need to try to emulate FFXI in that department.

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Originally Posted by linayar

People who prefer FFXI to FFXIV can just play FFXI as it still exists.

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What about people who like some things about Final Fantasy XI, but prefer other things about Final Fantasy XIV.

I find it rather reductive that when people say they like something about another game, so many are compelled to say "well go play that game instead".
Was really looking forward to the upcoming remake of Final Fantasy XI. But now that's been cancelled. A remake or remaster of Final Fantasy XI would go a long way for many people, I think.
That's not to say the original isn't perfectly playable. But it would be nice to have some sort of major update to bring the graphics at the very least in line with Final Fantasy XIV, while leaving the original for game preservation sake alone.

The account system and several other things about XI deserve an update, if not a remake entirely.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

While the xi system is definitely on the slow side. I actually prefer the idea of auto attacks building up tp to unleash skills. Or even combosmlike the 1.2 battel system had.

Yes you press less buttons but they feel more impctful and weighty...much more satisfying than the way xiv works where its basically just mash buttons for what feels like a glorified auto attack..

In xi you could quite often obliterate a decent challenge mob with a single weapon skill if you stocked up your tp

In xiv. It takes half or a dozen skills to drop whats referred to as a trash mob... thats how weak your skills feel when it takes so many to kill a piece of trash..

Still wish they'd kept the 1.23 battle system. Maybe upped the pace a touch but it was so much more engaging than the current one. Especially with things like the incapacitating system.

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Finally seeing someone else who thinks this. I 100% agree.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

What about people who like some things about Final Fantasy XI, but prefer other things about Final Fantasy XIV.

I find it rather reductive that when people say they like something about another game, so many are compelled to say "well go play that game instead".

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It depends on what it is that they're talking about.

The job system is a major gameplay component. So you're basically saying that FFXIV should be a different game, in which case, it is only appropriate to direct you to an existing game that already has what you're asking for, by the same company even.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The problem in XIV though is the jobs already play so much the same and have been homogenized so much that a subjob wouldn't really add anything.

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I don't want subjobs. I don't want new jobs. I want SE to focus on what each job's mechanic is and skill sets are and make them distinct. Balance around several different jobs instead of trying to make them all the same with a different coat of paint.

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Originally Posted by linayar

It depends on what it is that they're talking about.

The job system is a major gameplay component. So you're basically saying that FFXIV should be a different game, in which case, it is only appropriate to direct you to an existing game that already has what you're asking for, by the same company even.

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There's still plenty of things I prefer about Final Fantasy XIV, though. I may enjoy the subjob system, but may any any given time, not also want to play Final Fantasy XI.

I do think that there are some regards in which Final Fantasy XI is date. Though it's a great game I like going back to. But the subjob system I think has aged very well.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

There's still plenty of things I prefer about Final Fantasy XIV, though. I may enjoy the subjob system, but may any any given time, not also want to play Final Fantasy XI.

I do think that there are some regards in which Final Fantasy XI is date. Though it's a great game I like going back to. But the subjob system I think has aged very well.

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Well, do note that me saying for you to play FFXI doesn't mean you can't play FFXIV as well. I'm just saying that, if you want to get that subjob "itch" scratched, do it in FFXI, a game that has already been designed with that system, and play FFXIV for the things that you like about FFXIV.

We had them. There wasn't any creativity or self-expression. If you didn't have X from leveling Y class so you could have Z cross-class skill, then people gave you hell. Like being a healer needing to level THM to 26 for swiftcast. We just have role skills now because everyone already expected the given Job to have them. Same with having stat points to allocate. If you didn't do it the "right" way, then you were wrong and considered to be griefing your groups. I'm happy to see the backside of that whole idea when it was so cookie cutter.

If they wanted to ever implement it again, they'd have to get a lot more creative and flexible with encounter design or it will all be a nightmare to balance. So I doubt it will return.

Honestly, if it's about "self-expression," then just make cosmetic options.

Like, if you could have the option of switching the effects of astral and umbral for BLM. It'd still (mostly) be the same job, but you'd have noticeably visual difference between those who want to be a Fire Mage and those who want to be a Blizzard Mage.

Things like that could be nice, but the complete job should be independent from other jobs and have all of its abilities accessible at the same time to the player regardless of any cosmetic option chosen.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, do note that me saying for you to play FFXI doesn't mean you can't play FFXIV as well. I'm just saying that, if you want to get that subjob "itch" scratched, do it in FFXI, a game that has already been designed with that system, and play FFXIV for the things that you like about FFXIV.

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I'd personally prefer to have the best of both worlds. A combat system or combat mechanic isn't enough to make me play a game, it's just a nice feature that I think is better about XI than XIV.

When I get an itch to play Final Fantasy XI, it is about the story and worldbuilding first and foremost. When I play XIV, it's because I miss the world, graphics, sidequests, and general activities. When I get an itch to play Final Fantasy XI, it's because I miss Windurst and roaming the overworld.
It's not such much an itch, so much as constant feeling of missing out and remembering something better when playing XIV. Not important enough to make one quit or go play other things, but definitely enough to remind you of better things.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

I'd personally prefer to have the best of both worlds.

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Well, you can't currently have that in FFXIV and I hope it's never going to be possible in FFXIV because I don't like that system, as I've explained in my first post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Honestly, if it's about "self-expression," then just make cosmetic options.

Like, if you could have the option of switching the effects of astral and umbral for BLM. It'd still (mostly) be the same job, but you'd have noticeably visual difference between those who want to be a Fire Mage and those who want to be a Blizzard Mage.

Things like that could be nice, but the complete job should be independent from other jobs and have all of its abilities accessible at the same time to the player regardless of any cosmetic option chosen.

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I was going to mention how it would have to involve a much more extensive version of glamour than we have now, because not only are there limited options for each class. But also the way they hold and move their weapons.

But I'm compelled to talk more about Black Mage since that's a particular sore spot for me. A Realm Reborn ruined Black Mage for me. I loved playing and mained Thaumaturge in 1.0. And had a great time exploring the vastness of The Black Shroud, using level ups to explore more areas. When they moved to the Astral/Umbral system, it felt awful. I had always loved mages in Final Fantasy XI, and Thaumaturge was similarly fun to play. I tried and tried to adjust since I always viewed myself as a Black Mage in spirit for years. But I just couldn't adjust to liking the Astral Umbral system. I'll probably go back to Black Mage eventually

They can do some things that would appeal to my tastes without necessarily having subjobs, imperfectly, and they wouldn't be good for others, with more extensive cosmetics, or new jobs, to a small extent. It would be a big compromise, but a cosmetic system that would allow me to wield a katana as a Red Mage and cast curing spells is essentially what I want personally out of a subjob system. Or at least one of the main appeals. There are other things, but essentially a Samurai Mage would kind of work a little.

However, Black Mages I am absolutely not happy with. Years ago, I would have told you that Black Mage will always be my favourite class, no matter what. I never expected them to ever implement something as disappointing as the Astral Fire Umbral Ice system, however. It doesn't feel like playing a Black Mage/Thaumaturge at all. It's really unfun and I don't think I'll ever enjoy playing it as I once did. They ruined Black Mage for me I'm sad to say. I've tried and tried to like it, but I can't. It's just not Black Mage, and is perhaps the only job I wish would get a complete overhaul. I dislike the Astral Umbral System and love Black Mages, so this has been painful for me to see my favourite Final Fantasy job turned into something that feels like a chore to play.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Honestly, if it's about "self-expression," then just make cosmetic options.

Like, if you could have the option of switching the effects of astral and umbral for BLM. It'd still (mostly) be the same job, but you'd have noticeably visual difference between those who want to be a Fire Mage and those who want to be a Blizzard Mage.

Things like that could be nice, but the complete job should be independent from other jobs and have all of its abilities accessible at the same time to the player regardless of any cosmetic option chosen.

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I would pay 20 dollars, or an extra few bucks in my sub if necessary, to get access to a bunch of 'Job glams.' Different spell/ability effects, different weapon options (How rad would it be to get a NIN that is a thief that uses PLD swords and item themes for Ninjutsu?), Egi glamours, a "Red Wizard" as a SCH or WHM so we could get a Red Magic themed healer, ect. Monk with a staff named Blackbelt, anyone?

Like I get that would be a nightmare for them to maintain, but a little part of me hopes that part of the 'point' of BLU was to give them the infrastructure to create a 'Spell Glamour' mechanic that lets you change the visuals of your abilities, like rotating around what kinda Black Mage spells you use for what task.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I wonder, since I don't play it, would WoW be considered an example of the other end of this extreme? As I've understood it, there is (was?) more room for customization and variety, but as the game has aged, as I've heard, it's taken a strong shift towards "meta or get out."

Which, if I have the right of it, I wouldn't say is something that's exclusively contained to the game. That's just gamers today. We're increasingly connected, with the ability to crowd-share so much information so quickly now, it's a currently inescapable mindset of being best or quickest.

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This isn't even gamers today. I remember this crap back in Diablo II when you got on Battle.net. Do whatever you want in a solo or co-op game with your friends but there were only the "right" builds out there with strangers. Same with the Talent trees in WoW. I mainly just soloed or small grouped in that game up to Pandaria because I chose the trees that were interesting for me, not what others thought I should.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I would pay 20 dollars, or an extra few bucks in my sub if necessary, to get access to a bunch of 'Job glams.' Different spell/ability effects, different weapon options (How rad would it be to get a NIN that is a thief that uses PLD swords and item themes for Ninjutsu?), Egi glamours, a "Red Wizard" as a SCH or WHM so we could get a Red Magic themed healer, ect. Monk with a staff named Blackbelt, anyone?

Like I get that would be a nightmare for them to maintain, but a little part of me hopes that part of the 'point' of BLU was to give them the infrastructure to create a 'Spell Glamour' mechanic that lets you change the visuals of your abilities, like rotating around what kinda Black Mage spells you use for what task.

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It could be made into content, too. I can name quite a few games that had spell glamour tied to class specific quest chains. The only reward being turning your fire spells green, your arrows are now made of light, you're holy templar is now umbral themed..

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Another false conclusion of elitists, the idea that if you don’t follow the meta you must be bad which indirectly implies if you do follow the meta blindly you must be a good player lol

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Beyond some of the harsh language and seeming pessimism, I would say that this is a problem for the wider MMORPG genre.

I think that metagaming itself is harmful for the role playing games. A genre that was about adventure and immersion that came from Dungeons and Dragons, it's important to look back to Dungeons and Dragons. This is a social game without the pressure to play well, and without a meta. Because it was about playing a role first, and your ability to play well was limited by dice rolls, and wherever the Game Master wanted to move things.

You can go for silly ideas in Dungeons and Dragons, but as long as it's lore appropriate, most of your friends are happy to put up with it.

It's one thing to turn a Party Game like Super Smash Bros. into a competitive fighting game. It makes sense, the mechanics were built upon the fighting game genre, despite having platform elements. Role playing games are entirely different, though. They're fundamentally about creative expression, that's the point of role playing games.

Creative expression and playing a role, being your own character, that is the point of all role playing games.

You are a spontaneous actress or actor, playing the role of citizen in a fantasy world as you see fit. Writing your own story as you play.

I feel like people have lost sight of this. Where even people in content that isn't that challenging are expected to already know and following specific strategies. But if anything, the thing that RPGs are supposed to feel is unpredictable.

Efficiency is not that important. People will spent hours roleplaying, learning to play an instrument in game, all sorts of non-meta things that don't lead to speedy progression of any sort.

I wish that meta wasn't creeping into so many games. Shooters and Fighting games and MOBAs, that sounds great. For role playing games, I'd prefer us to actually have an online gaming genre that's not meta based. I feel like this wasn't always the case, though I could be wrong, what was the meta of Ultima Online? What playstyle would get you kicked out of a party?

At this rate, I wish someone would make a Massively Multiplayer Online Adventure game, I feel like it would ironically seem more like a role playing game than most MMORPGs today.

Sub job in FFXIV would essentially boil down to 1-3 extra buttons or thematic changes to existing buttons. Like a BLM which puts more emphasis on thunder than fire/blizzard.

Though if this could mean non-a**se running animations for gunbreaker and ninja i would be for it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This isn't even gamers today. I remember this crap back in Diablo II when you got on Battle.net. Do whatever you want in a solo or co-op game with your friends but there were only the "right" builds out there with strangers. Same with the Talent trees in WoW. I mainly just soloed or small grouped in that game up to Pandaria because I chose the trees that were interesting for me, not what others thought I should.

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Remember someone posting a picture from BFA between two talent setups, one being optimal and the other being thematic... Safe to say the optimal one was over twice as good.

Best iteration of talents WoW have had so far would be the artefact weapons and not the current talent system. This was because there was no choice other than farming some buffs for the lesser talents which were pretty much just minor % increase in something. Though there were some exceptions to this too like unkillable warlocks cause they buffed the self heal trait to max.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This isn't even gamers today. I remember this crap back in Diablo II when you got on Battle.net. Do whatever you want in a solo or co-op game with your friends but there were only the "right" builds out there with strangers. Same with the Talent trees in WoW. I mainly just soloed or small grouped in that game up to Pandaria because I chose the trees that were interesting for me, not what others thought I should.

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This is why balance is so important. Having lots of choice can feel nice but it's meaningless if only a few choices are good. WoW's talent trees gave the illusion of choice. There were many ways to spend your points but for the most part there were only two good ways to spend them for each spec and most of the time these two ways only had minor differences. If you went against the grain and went for something totally different you were ridiculed if the result was that your character had noticeably less usefulness in combat. While some people consider that to be a meanspirited reaction to someone's choice in how they spent their talent points, by having a character that isn't well made you are forcing other people to work harder to make up for it and that's not fair. I remember healing some tanks who made some interesting choices with their talents and it wasn't a pleasant experience for me.

Having lots of combat flavour can be great, but only if all those flavours are very effective.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Beyond some of the harsh language and seeming pessimism, I would say that this is a problem for the wider MMORPG genre.

I think that metagaming itself is harmful for the role playing games. A genre that was about adventure and immersion that came from Dungeons and Dragons, it's important to look back to Dungeons and Dragons. This is a social game without the pressure to play well, and without a meta. Because it was about playing a role first, and your ability to play well was limited by dice rolls, and wherever the Game Master wanted to move things.

You can go for silly ideas in Dungeons and Dragons, but as long as it's lore appropriate, most of your friends are happy to put up with it.

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You talk about being social and playing with friends. You can also have that in FFXIV (or any other MMORPG).

But MMORPG also has random matchmaking and/or preformed grouping with strangers. Even the concept of a static or a guild-based group could be formed on the basis of defeating difficult content.

In such a case, it's not about your friends putting up with your silly ideas because they're your friends, but otherwise complete strangers who may not feel the same way you do about the game.

So the solution is either to play with like-minded friends and/or to stick to (in the case of FFXIV) Normal/Hard contents as opposed to Extreme/Savage/Ultimate contents.

Like I said before, I've yet to see anyone getting seriously mad at not doing a range/caster LB at Nero in the Praetorium. The most common form of "metagaming" that occurs in Normal/Hard contents is probably doing large pulls in dungeon, but even then, I've seen groups doing single pulls with no issues as well (as it should be).

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I would pay 20 dollars, or an extra few bucks in my sub if necessary, to get access to a bunch of 'Job glams.' Different spell/ability effects, different weapon options (How rad would it be to get a NIN that is a thief that uses PLD swords and item themes for Ninjutsu?), Egi glamours, a "Red Wizard" as a SCH or WHM so we could get a Red Magic themed healer, ect. Monk with a staff named Blackbelt, anyone?

Like I get that would be a nightmare for them to maintain, but a little part of me hopes that part of the 'point' of BLU was to give them the infrastructure to create a 'Spell Glamour' mechanic that lets you change the visuals of your abilities, like rotating around what kinda Black Mage spells you use for what task.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

It could be made into content, too. I can name quite a few games that had spell glamour tied to class specific quest chains. The only reward being turning your fire spells green, your arrows are now made of light, you're holy templar is now umbral themed..

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I've long thought that this might be a great opportunity for a sphere grid, crystarium, license board, classic FF like merit system for each job. Here in you could do non-balance damaging adjustments to your job and give players a sense of growth after cap (as well you might sneak it very slow growth uncapped).

As you both have exampled some ideas we're head start here but to add besides the visuals like you both mentioned, so say like Dark Knight's smokey black aura effect from the Heavensward trailer, you can also add non-combat gimmicks and tools. Like for Dragoon you could unlock a toggle passive that lets you jump higher in areas that you've unlocked flying (perhaps also giving a sticky landing effect so dragoon can climb unpathable objects, spear stuck in surface standing on it like Sun Wukong or Kain might). Nidhogg / Hraesvelgr theme'd dragoon AF (and even animation effects, like leaping off with the dark magic looking effect or with a slight holy and feathers effect of Hraesvelgr). Bard could have new instruments placed in there, or a new mount that is played from their harp (playing on a bed of notes, perhaps a combination of the cloud mount and the notes with a side seating position, mount also lets them actually play music while mounted), dancer gaining new dance emotes, alchemist might gain open world bonus where potions last significantly longer. So long as you're avoiding instances you could have a lot of flavor fun. Miner with their pickaxe slapped into a rock using it like a motor on a boat with a bunch of spriggans pushing it like the Namazu (but from behind). Samurai with option to have flower petals fall from their dash attacks. Level x omnicrafter unlock a non-consumable "item" minion non-tradeable / unique (perhaps recipe, reasonably attainable materials lol) that temporarily spawns a cute mammet tinker when used, with cooldown, and acts as a repair station for all players that interact with it. Woodworker + moogle delivery rank X, moogle flute that lets you send and receive mail and purchase basic supplies (with more supplies based on your moogle rank). DoH / DoL, depending on creative limits may need to share exp pool (suppose it depends on how many cool, interesting, ideas you might be able to focus down on each role.. but might just be easier to use sphere locks for certain things in that situation).

I think having certain FATEs or other sort of content with a cleverly paced merit cost EXP curve could add a lot to the experience such you might have a grid with many items gated behind level spheres (like in FFX), early on Dragoon for example might have access to soft landing passive which reduces fall damage in half. So with a bit of time, maybe around 35 - 40 you might get your first merit (half fall damage), and then you may gain access to a few nodes as you level but they're goals not just instantly unlocked, by 50 - 60 you'd probably have the soft landing skill upgraded for 100% fall damage negation. May even introduce massively long term goals with the ability to purchase the skill out of job, so once you hit 100% fall damage reduction on dragoon (tier 2) at level 70 or 80 tier 3 unlocks and you could dump a massive amount of points into unlocking 50% fall damage reduction for all jobs. Say if a mage earned a special teleport (like Black Mage may be able to slip through cracks in the void, reaching some different locations than the standard atheryte once attuned to), similar concept if a player couldn't be bothered to just switch to that job lol. Although some things should be reserved, like in the dragoon example the tier 3 would only be 50% fall damage reduction to all jobs.

Excess points being convertible to a general category that can use in case of max / lack of care for the job itself, with general concept opportunities like once you complete Hildibrand quest your Manderville Man Run sphere unlocks and you can purchase it (although being made available at the Golden Saucer would work too lol), and ultimately / alternatively you might be able to convert excess tokens (like the feathers, venture, etc).

Adds a sort of low cost way to manipulate your character while staying in line with FF and FFXIV theme (visual can be shape and similar color to your soul crystal), cheap since they don't have to write quests for every single unique option, and also adds a bit more to exp and opportunity to place some goof / just for fun progression toys.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This isn't even gamers today. I remember this crap back in Diablo II when you got on Battle.net. Do whatever you want in a solo or co-op game with your friends but there were only the "right" builds out there with strangers. Same with the Talent trees in WoW. I mainly just soloed or small grouped in that game up to Pandaria because I chose the trees that were interesting for me, not what others thought I should.

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tell that to my leaper barbarin or spear amazon that slaughtered people in pvp, i never followed "best builds" and i always pked people who used them and won with my own unique build lol or my martial art assassin

thing is "there was never a best build" there was only "good builds for stupid people who couldnt think for themself" thats what it was lol if you planned and worked at it everything could destory those best builds

hell even my enchant sorcess wasnt "best build" yet could do 100k with a mele hit with enchant lol

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Beyond some of the harsh language and seeming pessimism, I would say that this is a problem for the wider MMORPG genre.

I think that metagaming itself is harmful for the role playing games. A genre that was about adventure and immersion that came from Dungeons and Dragons, it's important to look back to Dungeons and Dragons. This is a social game without the pressure to play well, and without a meta.

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It is very clearly harmful and bad but something being harmful and bad doesnt stop people from doing it(And to be clear, I mean harmful and bad to OTHER people, if someone wants to do something unhealthy to themselves like smoke privately I have no issue with that), just like people who point out bad or unhealthy or toxic behaviors are called Sjws so some people never have to change their toxic ways.


WoW classic proved that the gaming community is the problem, anyone with even a little bit of brain power knew that the vanilla experience would NEVER be recreated because the gaming community is nothing like it was in 2004 and as expected WoW classic was filled with elitist tryhards and toxicity where people demanded others play "meta" or they dont get invited, in a game where literally 10 decent people can carry 30 other players cuz the content was tuned very very low and there was like 1-2 mechanics at most.

When a game is tuned that low that lets say it requires 20 overall dps from those 40 players, and a decent person can do 100, even if your non meta spec talents was so badly tuned that it did 50 damage, that was literally DOUBLE the raid requirement but even that was not enough because elitist only accepted 98+ because god forbid the fight lasted more than a few seconds

The gaming community is simply incapable of having independent thought which is exactly why I understand Yoshi P. when it comes to not wanting to add customization.

What customization? When 90% of the playerbase is gonna blindly follow whatever a sim some dude wrote where's the """""customization""""?, 1sims that were optimized the "best" options and never even bothered to think or try to optimize for those """"bad"""" option combinations because clearly initial sims show that these combinations are dominant so why bother try to optimize a sim for this weird niche combination that initially doesnt look good. (Cough cough a certain wow priest legendary failing disastrously to write cough cough)

There is no customization, FEW PEOPLE, VERY FEW PEOPLE LIKE ME are capable of choosing the sub optimal choices and ignoring the meta, I played with sims and know how they work because I often spend hours in raidbots trying to get an estimate of all the builds i liked, but unlike the average gamer I didnt go "This number is higher so i must choose that", I liked X build options, let's see how they perform until i found a combination I liked for ALL SCENARIOS(I am not a tryhard that literally changes build for every boss and dungeon), and builds that also fitted my theme aka aff is a DOT FOCUSED CLASS, not some silly direct damage malefic grasp spec so the build I am gonna create and test via sims is gonna be one that focuses on Dots always taking into account that sims are rarely ever made with sub optimal choices coded well in mind

I play mmorpgs as they are meant to be played, the average gamer TM on the other hand plays it as a tool to feed their self esteem so they have 0 choices but be slaves to whatever meta exists because they simply cant imagine playing something that a sim or logs didnt call "the best"

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

They've made it a point to remove anything that could possibly make someone better or worse than another playing the same job (and often same role) due to customization choice.

Except for materia, which has been simplified several times itself, they've removed:

• stat allocation points on level up
• the ability to equip accessories from other roles for different stats
• cross-class abilities
• slots for role actions letting you choose which to set

In related changes that weren't expressly the removal of customization, they've also removed:

• all stances that give any sort of stat or ability trade-off
• several different sub-stats that weren't favorable on gear
• pets actually existing in the world, needing to be controlled, affected by AoEs, etc.
• TP and its ability to be depleted
• MP as an actual stat and all abilities that affect it except for one that's shared by everyone
• Protect, Shell, and Stoneskin

I love job/ability system games, FFV is my favorite in the series, and all the Bravely Default games are fantastic. But I can plainly see this goes against everything they do in FFXIV here.

Edit: I should also mention that one of the reasons they gave for making Blue Mage a silly minigame instead of an actual job was that players might not have the spells others expect them to.

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Basically this sums the whole situation.

I love the stability and balance that this "under the leashes" job design gives... But not gonna lie, the only thing I miss about WoW (more back in the day than in the recent iterations) is how the gameplay can be customizable sometimes within even the same specialization.

In XIV there's the thing about you being able to swap freely through jobs that makes it somewhat more bearable. And that's probably the reason why they always add at least 2 new jobs per expansion. Since they can't customize the gameplay of each individually, at least they offer a wide array of options.

If everyone is overpowered, then no one will be.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

WoW classic proved that the gaming community is the problem, anyone with even a little bit of brain power knew that the vanilla experience would NEVER be recreated because the gaming community is nothing like it was in 2004 and as expected WoW classic was filled with elitist tryhards and toxicity where people demanded others play "meta" or they dont get invited, in a game where literally 10 decent people can carry 30 other players cuz the content was tuned very very low and there was like 1-2 mechanics at most.

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I do love how you completely disregard the incredibly selfish mindset this encourages. Thirty players can play however they want, even if it's entirely detrimental because they have little idea how their class functions, so long as ten people are both good and willing to carry said players through it. In other words, good players aren't allowed to have standards of their own and should they opt to enforce standards in their own parties, they're toxic and EEEEVILLL. But everyone else benefiting from their effort while contributing little of their own aren't toxic at all. They're just "having fun."

Gotta love that double standard.

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Originally Posted by FawkesWyznfarr

If everyone is overpowered, then no one will be.

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it not rlly about power though its more along the lines of not going brain dead because no matter what you do the entire game your doing the exact same combo and no room to make that combo yours, hell you cant even macro to give it flavor without destroying it. So really what's the point in long term when everyone has all the abilitys at said level and then its either you suck at it completely, your trolling or your doing the combo right. There is 0 in-between there and no boss fights and stuff like that doesn't make it okay for the classes/jobs to be brain rot game play because once you see a full pattern that boss becomes a joke after the first time lol

Modern games in general mmo or not encourages people to be stupid honestly with how modern game design is it takes little to any brain power to play lol

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This is why balance is so important. Having lots of choice can feel nice but it's meaningless if only a few choices are good. WoW's talent trees gave the illusion of choice. There were many ways to spend your points but for the most part there were only two good ways to spend them for each spec and most of the time these two ways only had minor differences. If you went against the grain and went for something totally different you were ridiculed if the result was that your character had noticeably less usefulness in combat. While some people consider that to be a meanspirited reaction to someone's choice in how they spent their talent points, by having a character that isn't well made you are forcing other people to work harder to make up for it and that's not fair. I remember healing some tanks who made some interesting choices with their talents and it wasn't a pleasant experience for me.

Having lots of combat flavour can be great, but only if all those flavours are very effective.

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WoW definitely was the illusion of choice but Diablo II had a lot of flexibility. Those "non-meta" builds were just as powerful in the hands of someone who pushed them to their full potential. But people couldn't get out of the mindset of the "right" builds so they harassed or stigmatized anyone who went outside of that mentality. We saw the same thing here in XIV when we had cross-classes. But a big fault there was game design that let any choice be weaker than another. Of course that's a really complicated situation to balance, so I can see why they simplified and streamlined.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Those "non-meta" builds were just as powerful in the hands of someone who pushed them to their full potential. But people couldn't get out of the mindset of the "right" builds so they harassed or stigmatized anyone who went outside of that mentality. We saw the same thing here in XIV when we had cross-classes. But a big fault there was game design that let any choice be weaker than another. Of course that's a really complicated situation to balance, so I can see why they simplified and streamlined.

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What are you talking about? Cross-class skills never worked that way. I can't think of even a single example of a non-meta cross-class skill that might have actually been worth setting. Hell, some of the standard cross-class skills weren't even worth setting except that there were literally no better options (e.g. literally everything besides Raging Strikes and Swiftcast on SMN.)

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

What are you talking about? Cross-class skills never worked that way. I can't think of even a single example of a non-meta cross-class skill that might have actually been worth setting. Hell, some of the standard cross-class skills weren't even worth setting except that there were literally no better options (e.g. literally everything besides Raging Strikes and Swiftcast on SMN.)

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Pretty much.

Being able to use the 2nd gcd of Mar on pld was super useful in many instances.... Not....

I will chime in that 2.0 mnk could offtank in a pinch in dungeons and some early CT with Fists of Earth, Featherfoot, Bloodbath, and Second Wind while also slowing down the mob with Haymakers from dodging. That felt good and fun. Did it make mnk a viable tank? Of course it didn't but having those abilities be viable let mnk do something it definitely cannot do now.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

I will chime in that 2.0 mnk could offtank in a pinch in dungeons and some early CT with Fists of Earth, Featherfoot, Bloodbath, and Second Wind while also slowing down the mob with Haymakers from dodging. That felt good and fun. Did it make mnk a viable tank? Of course it didn't but having those abilities be viable let mnk do something it definitely cannot do now.

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That's the one thing this game is missing, fun. If you wanna stack a team that uses nothing but fire and piercing damage then go for it. Or maybe you wanna do some meme bs like all dps with dodge focus.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I do love how you completely disregard the incredibly selfish mindset this encourages. Thirty players can play however they want, even if it's entirely detrimental because they have little idea how their class functions, so long as ten people are both good and willing to carry said players through it. In other words, good players aren't allowed to have standards of their own and should they opt to enforce standards in their own parties, they're toxic and EEEEVILLL. But everyone else benefiting from their effort while contributing little of their own aren't toxic at all. They're just "having fun."

Gotta love that double standard.

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Ah and of course someone defends the ridiculous standards elitists put no matter how easy the content is, you can be certain these people would put standards of praetorium if you couldnt do it via DF and was forced to use PF because "omg you are wasting our time if you dont have max ilvl and know how to play your class perfectl."

And as usual you create the false demeaning conclusion that those "dirty casuals" clearly have nothing better to do other than demand carries left and right and it is the only explanation when they dont reach your l33t performance a streamer/guide/sim told you is """""""required"""""" which is a blatant lie because it isnt required or needed, elitists simply love to gatekeep and put ridiculous requirements even for easy content and WoW classic was a PERFECT example of how the elitist gamers are the problem in games they touch.

I even gave you specific numbers to show your ridiculous the elitist requirements always become:
WoW classic raid bosses have barely 1-2 mechanics and the actual DPS required for all people is so low, let's say 20 that can be achieved by spamming one button and having 2 second delay beween each cast. (Though in Classic's defense most """rotations""" are spamming one spell sometimes at different ranks and wand spam lmao)

The """dps check""" is so low that even if those 40 people do 20 dps from the example i gave above they would still get it, now theoretically some of those specs might be able to do 100 DPS so elitist tryhards will of course go around demanding only specs and builds and players that do that 98+ DPS because if the encounter doesnt end in a few seconds you are """""wasting time"""" for not having the RIDICULOUSLY INFLATED ELITIST REQUIREMENTS

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Ah and of course someone defends the ridiculous standards elitists put no matter how easy the content is, you can be certain these people would put standards of praetorium if you couldnt do it via DF and was forced to use PF because "omg you are wasting our time if you dont have max ilvl and know how to play your class perfectl."

And as usual you create the false demeaning conclusion that those "dirty casuals" clearly have nothing better to do other than demand carries left and right and it is the only explanation when they dont reach your l33t performance a streamer/guide/sim told you is """""""required"""""" which is a blatant lie because it isnt required or needed, elitists simply love to gatekeep and put ridiculous requirements even for easy content and WoW classic was a PERFECT example of how the elitist gamers are the problem in games they touch.

I even gave you specific numbers to show your ridiculous the elitist requirements always become:
WoW classic raid bosses have barely 1-2 mechanics and the actual DPS required for all people is so low, let's say 20 that can be achieved by spamming one button and having 2 second delay beween each cast. (Though in Classic's defense most """rotations""" are spamming one spell sometimes at different ranks and wand spam lmao)

The """dps check""" is so low that even if those 40 people do 20 dps from the example i gave above they would still get it, now theoretically some of those specs might be able to do 100 DPS so elitist tryhards will of course go around demanding only specs and builds and players that do that 98+ DPS because if the encounter doesnt end in a few seconds you are """""wasting time"""" for not having the RIDICULOUSLY INFLATED ELITIST REQUIREMENTS

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

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...Who hurt you?

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Originally Posted by StormyFae

once you see a full pattern that boss becomes a joke after the first time lol

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That's not my experience unless the group I'm in is so overpowered that we're skipping significant mechanics. Otherwise, I can still fail mechanics if I don't pay attention or if I forget what a mechanic does, especially when playing "busier" jobs. And I'm only talking Normal/Hard contents here.

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Originally Posted by FawkesWyznfarr

That's the one thing this game is missing, fun.

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I disagree. If I'm not having fun in this game, then I wouldn't be playing it.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

...Who hurt you?

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The very short sighted and ignorant demands for customization while we are surrounded by proof of what happens when you give customization to Gamers Tm and how it always results in metaslaves ruining the fun of everyone who doesn’t worship the meta and thus creates a ton more problems and solves nothing because people play the same build anyway.

Elitists start spreading the broken ‘meta’ build everywhere and that slowly spreads to lower and lower end content and when that mentality starts afflicting average players the community descends fully into toxic elitism where if you dont follow the elitist metaslave builds you are out.

I mean just go take a look in WoW forums, just checked and there was a thread in the first page of such a person afflicted with that mentality whining about how:
‘I don’t have enough conduit energy to change to my battleground build so I won’t play bgs’ which translates to ‘if I can’t play the meta broken build for X I cannot play’

Like do you realize how unhealthy such a person has to be to refuse to play what they want because they don’t have the ‘meta build’?
Elitism has made people suffer so much that now they are unable to comprehend even the idea of playing without being metaslaves and when these average players have been transformed into that you cannot avoid elitism because even in low end content that mentality is everywhere.

And the irony is most of those people aren’t that great, I say that because I am the opposite of a metaslave, I am one of the few people that choose fun underperforming builds and chose the sub optimal covenant and I more often than not performed better than them in the real encounter which always results in ‘omg I didn’t know this thing was good, I always thought it was trash cuz my l33t meta guide told me’.
What matters to them isn’t real performance, it is what a raidbots sim or Warcraftlog 99 parse says

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

snip

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You seem to get so angry about elitism in this game and it only really seems to kick in for the last 5th percentile of content, other than the odd moron in Void Arc or something. For 95% of content I could just pop my DF and headbutt my keyboard until it's over and nobody would care.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

The very short sighted and ignorant demands for customization while we are surrounded by proof of what happens when you give customization to Gamers Tm and how it always results in metaslaves ruining the fun of everyone who doesn’t worship the meta and thus creates a ton more problems and solves nothing because people play the same build anyway.

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It's not customization that creates metaslaves. It's incompetence. You don't need to be meta to clear content. All the meta does is offer a slight advantage when you and/or others in your party not competent at performing your jobs.

Save yourself hassle. Make some like minded friends and form a static instead of relying on PF, which is filled with incompetent players who need to lean on meta.