Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

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Originally Posted by Noir

Easy fix. Leve warrior as it is. And improve the eminty from paladin AF. Eminty will be improved as materia, so with a boost to AF gear eminty ppl would think. Should I go with a tank that even if the guy handling it isn't a good tank, but can hold hate easier, but give less dmg, or should I use warrior as tank, that can atk stronger but needs someone who knows his way tanking to hold hate?

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I thought about the same thing. just increase the amount of hate PLD produces, and pld could work out better then WAR in ifrit. such as, a pally buffing up and attacking the boss and allow the thms / other dps to just nuke the crap out of ifrit this would, fix the damage difference between war and pld. you have to give a war a couple of hits to gain enough hate to hold ifrit through a thm nuking the crap out of him. while a pally would beable to just run up there get ifrits attention and allow the thm's to nuke to their hearts content.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I think it's laughable that you think Wars crits a lot and get a sizeable amount healed from it on mobs that matter.
Pld gets Bloodbath too.
Aegis Boon, does have a 15sec longer recast, but force block and heal for more than Second Wind on mobs that matter.
Oh and then you still have Holy Succor and Cure.

War hardly ever parries without the use of Foresight on mobs that matter, but hey if you think blocking sucks so much and really think parry is the shit, remove your shield, now you can parry too!

But back to blocking, over a period of 180 secs:

You can use Divine Veil 3 times to have a 100% blockrate for 60sec.
You can use Outmaneuver 2 times to have an increased blockrate for 60sec.
You can use Sentinel 2 times to have an all over damage reduction for 30sec.

That leaves you with just 30 secs over a whole 180sec period "unprotected" in which you can still use Aegis Boon 3 times if you have managed your abilities properly or even just 2 times and it would still be amazing.

War can't do stunts like this with parry, so why shouldn't parry be a bit more effective than block since the procrate isn't has high.

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You can go ahead and remove outmaneuver from your list of mitigation. It provides 60 seconds of "why doesn't the let me block anything ON MOBS THAT MATTER. People stack it with divine veil to get some use from it as it stands now.

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Originally Posted by Nullie

So the obvious solution is to nerf warrior so they can be a damage dealer (like we don't have enough of those already) because we can't have two tank classes which won't be as good as a monk or dragoon or blackmage and can't support like a bard.

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Wow nice way to miss the point, the fact is that WAR acts as both a main tank and a DD at the same time, and thats why people choose them over PLD.

Nobody is saying stop WAR from tanking we are simply saying if a WAR chooses to tank they should take a hit in the amount of damage they do, now you could argue that the reason WAR keeps hate is down to its DPS output but thats what needs to be fixed, because unless it is people will continue to favour WAR.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I'd rather See SE buff wars dmg a bit and make them tank off pure DD and get rid of their gla sub for lnc.

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But that's the problem, people currently choose WAR as tank mainly because they can DD as well as tank, increasing their DPS only makes them more favourable.

I don't think the PLD 's problems are based around enmity or hate control its basically they suck at mitigating damage (elemental damage especially) have lower HP and do less damage than a lvl 1 marmot. (assuming they actually hit the mob)

Its almost as if SE didn't even test this class because its pretty obvious where its problems lay.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

ok... so what is PLD's particular tanking route?

Is it Damage mitigation that fails in comparison to more HP?

Is it healing that fails in comparison to second wind + Bloodbath + Rampage Crits?

Is it blocking that fails compared to Parrying?

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I already said what are the things i like about being PLD while tanking in another thread lemme paste it here:

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Originally Posted by YuriSan

I always tank Ifrit on PLD and we kill it in under 10 everytime easy :)



We do Moogle fight with two tanks, I'm on PLD (kitting)
And off tank is on WAR to get Whiskerwall in Phase two.
Even tho WAR is starting with Collusion on a BRD's Barrage after a while i can take
Whiskerwall on me if i like to.
Don't forget the extra stats that come from a shield.
You can stack an additional 50+ DEF on it, Elemental res or even HP if u like too.
+10 ENM on the Thormoen's Purpose right there.


MNKs, BRDs and BLMs cant really hold a mog's hate for long from me.
By the end of phase one i usually have either all or most mobs flashing red on me :).

In AV:
I am doing the poisonous rooms on PLD,
I have a macro which pops Divine Veil on me and right after pops a message in /p
telling to WHMs to throw a cure on me, POW! AoE regen on the whole pt without the need of Sacred Prism.
I help stoneskin and aoe cure in the two rooms with sacred prism alswell (My stoneskin is better than a WHM's because i have 359 VIT btw).
Also don't forget PLD can raise which is important aswell.
Not needing TP to perfor an AoE hate pulling skill is also key. Flash is instant and so is Wardrum,
If u pop aegis inside a clustered mob party that all hit u at the same time u will block instantly :)

In Coincounter:
I start with Sent + flash + voke, run to the tanking spot to aegis boom + war drum + phalanx + spirits within.
Then spam Flat blade combo.
If Coincounter swings i run through him towards the party and Rampart there while he is on his ass
and on my way back to my tanking spot i pop riot blade on his back to start off the rage of halone combo. My full BLM party goes all out on him and i totally have control, never ever lose hate, no potions or nothing.
If things go wrong and i die i can pop hallowed ground after raised and i can run through the chaos to gain
hate control back on me. NOTHING can kill me no swings nor swipes :).

And damagewise Rage of Halone, gorging blade and spirits within combo are just fine :)

It all depends on what each person preffers.

Yuri San tanks better on PLD and generally finds PLD more useful in a party. (not a soloing class for sure)

Anyway this is my last post here dudes. tired of this debate lol.. cheers.

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Hopefully they only buff Pld. I hate nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Wow nice way to miss the point, the fact is that WAR acts as both a main tank and a DD at the same time, and thats why people choose them over PLD.

Nobody is saying stop WAR from tanking we are simply saying if a WAR chooses to tank they should take a hit in the amount of damage they do, now you could argue that the reason WAR keeps hate is down to its DPS output but thats what needs to be fixed, because unless it is people will continue to favour WAR.



But that's the problem, people currently choose WAR as tank mainly because they can DD as well as tank, increasing their DPS only makes them more favourable.

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I think all agree that War does more damage than Pld, but that doesn't mean War's damage is up there with the real damage dealers, unless they suck, War will parse last on mobs that matter.

A Paladin buff would be best. But then again we will find out soon enough.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I think all agree that War does more damage than Pld, but that doesn't mean War's damage is up there with the real damage dealers, unless they suck, War will parse last on mobs that matter.

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But they still parse way more than a PLD ever would (which is fine) but can also tank just as well on mobs that matter.

Allowing PLD to build more enmity isn't that much help since, again, WAR can do just as well. What needs to be done is dramatically increase PLD's defensive skills so that they're REAL tanks, allowing you for example to run with one less whm and replace it with a blm or a DD that would greatly out damage whatever the WAR would have done.

Give Paladin more HP than GLA.
Make Holy Succor instant cast and cut the MP cost in half.
Then give Paladin some serious Healing Potency gear and self Refresh.
Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

Give Paladin more HP than GLA.
Make Holy Succor instant cast and cut the MP cost in half.
Then give Paladin some serious Healing Potency gear and self Refresh.
Problem solved.

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Pretty much. It's not that hard to do.

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

Give Paladin more HP than GLA.
Make Holy Succor instant cast and cut the MP cost in half.
Then give Paladin some serious Healing Potency gear and self Refresh.
Problem solved.

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Yup that'd work.

As much as I like to believe that SE will make proper adjustments to make both PLD and WAR happy, this will just not happen. 1.19 the Marauders ruled, 1.20 the Gladiators ruled, 1.21 the Warriors ruled, and then SE will pull the classic nerf one job instead of making another better, and we will be in 1.22 with Paladins back in the game, but people will not touch Warrior.

I would throw suggestions on how to balance the two out, but patch date is so close that I will wait and see what happens. I truly hope that SE finds a way to bring balance to these two jobs.

It saddens me, because during my WoW days, between a Paladin and a Warrior, you were judged based on gear/skill on tanking, not simply which class you were. Each had their own unique mix of tanking skills and methods on holding hate, but were both able to balance each other out. Like I said, gear/skill was more important than the class itself. If SE is looking at how western developers are doing things, why can't they take note on balance structure?

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Originally Posted by Akumu

The FFXIV community seems to can't function unless there is only one Tank in game and the rest as some off tank. That of course shafts people that actually enjoy the tanking role.

WAR: Tank
PLD: Tank

Neither is supposed to be a "main" Tank. They each have their own style of Tanking but neither is supposed to be the "main".

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This ^^ playing as a tank and healer you can tell the differences and where one shines in its certain areas both are main tanks one is damage based one is defensive based

Let's just go by square's past actions
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-K...00/tanaka3.jpg

Paladin and Warrior should both stay being viable tanking jobs. Warrior defense isn't an issue nor is its crazy amount of hp or amount of sustainable damage. Each class played correctly can maintain hate in either solo or group battles, but each excels in each category. Warrior for groups since it does hold hate better by being able to take only moderate damage regardless of blocking/parry and Paladin for single targets which all of you know or should.

Paladin and Warrior abilities are fine as they are, what needs adjusting is the base groundwork stat wise on Paladin. Paladin should get an innate 15-20% damage reduction like i read in another post I read recently which sure sounds like a lot, but really it isn't. Ifrit for example just because its easy math since Warrior and Paladin take same dmg; If each class were to be hit for 800 dmg, Pld should only take 640 dmg then the additional block damage reduction(if it activates...which doesn't happen very often) As well as a HP pool of roughly 4000. Neither is outrageous by any means. Paladin does not do as much damage as a Warrior in any given situation, although paladin should take less damage and have close to the same amount of HP to make it a more reliable tank for those high level mobs.

I would love to see pld be a better healer to DD to make close range combat a more viable option in more battles.

they must leave the nerf thing on jobs/classes they need to buff classes to balance not make them suck in the next patch...

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Originally Posted by YuriSan

p.s: I like bass guitars, rectangular tables, chicks in aprons and TURTLES!!!

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You like chicks in turtles? Wat.

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Originally Posted by elreed

they must leave the nerf thing on jobs/classes they need to buff classes to balance not make them suck in the next patch...

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You can't continuously buff jobs to make up ones weakness at every opportunity, that's just bad design, makes older content weaker and less relevant, and really just makes adjustments more difficult in the future. For instance look at FFXI after the level cap was raised it threw all the game mechanics into utter chaos, because they never rectified the formulas to reflect the new level adjustment. Now rather than fixing the issue, they continuously feed the playerbase gear and skills based on these broken mechanics, and now it's a mountainous mess of problems just because they didn't try to fix the problem when it first emerged.

As for WAR I think it's in a good place design wise. The job might stand to take a little more damage or lose it's ability to heal off AoE'd targets, but I don't think it really deserves any major tweaks or nerfs beyond simple little adjustments like those.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

The job might stand to take a little more damage or lose it's ability to heal off AoE'd targets

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I agree... this would help

I don't see why Warrior got so many tank abilities when jobs came out. I like being a Warrior to off tank or tank if the Paladin does die. I hate that Paladin pretty much became obsolete in everything.

As a Warrior, I say nerf Warrior and buff up Paladin. Or take away an ability from Warrior and give it to Paladin. I mean Collusion would have been awesome for Paladin but nope, Warrior got it. le sigh

Honestly I see both incoming. WAR needs a nerf, and I say that as someone who often plays on Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Honestly I see both incoming. WAR needs a nerf, and I say that as someone who often plays on Warrior.

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As someone who plays Warrior I say chop his head off.

I just hope they realize something should be done and change something one way or another.

/sob-story on
PLD is my only job @50 and it sucks that as it currently stands, I almost feel embarrassed walking through Ul'Derp with a sword at my side. I don't believe in Power Leveling so I duo'd with my fiancee through leves for months and spent hundreds of thousands on gear to get where I am now.. and I can't even get into a single Ifrit run or any other high-level activity?

PLD? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass} I played FFXI as a DRK so I understand the elitism, I just never thought it would show it's ugly head in XIV with a tank job.

Honestly SE could just do something simple like hey PLD you get automatic -20% damage taken! This would do 2 things. 1 it would make PLD need less healing. And 2 it would potentially allow an additional DPS be able to enter the party over 2 WHM.

The problem from this? "WAAAAAHHHH I WAS ONE OF THE TWO WHM AND NOW MY LS DOESNT NEED MY WHM ANY MORE OMG COOKIE CUTTER BUILDS WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH"

Anybody advocating a warrior nerf is out of their mind. As it currently stands Warrior single target DPS is absolute garbage. It can't generate TP like a DRG can and it doesn't even compare to monk on single target dps. If its tanking abilities get nerfed it will always be the last choice in a party for DD and will be relegated to 'useless' status.

Warrior thrives at the moment because it can do tanking quite well with just enough damage thrown in to make the tank more than just a simple meatshield. To me this isn't about SE overpowering something, its about SE finally balancing something properly. Warrior will never outdo a MNK on single target DPS nor will its hate generation be up to par with a (patched) Pally. Yet it can fill out both roles in a pinch respectably well.

The real issue here is bringing Pally up to that level. I really think all that is needed at the moment is a hp boost to rival Warriors. Once this is done it will fill out a dual role purpose quite well just like War. It will be able to heal others and itself quite competently while tanking on a level akin to a warrior. The tradeoff will be do you take the extra DPS that a Warrior can bring or the relative security of having another healer around to take care of the group. Both will fill two roles and both would be welcome in any group I made if this were the case.

PLD works quite well actually, the problem is that WAR can be a hardcore DD while it tanks...

PLD and MRD need a stronger focus on their different styles of tanking:

WAR should be ideal for tanking large groups of weaker mobs while PLD should be a better tank for fewer, stronger mobs.

To represent the WAR's reckless style, and to ruther separate WAR's DD and tanking roles I would like to see the following changes to Rampage:

MRD:

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Rampage: Increases your attack speed and power while reducing your accuracy for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk. Recast timer changed from :10 to :30

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PLD just needs another enmity-generating tool at its disposal in order to better take hate back when it is lost.

GLD:

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Rage of Halone Delivers a fivefold melee attack at low accuracy. Generates massive emnity when executed from behind.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

PLD works quite well actually, the problem is that WAR can be a hardcore DD while it tanks...

PLD and MRD need a stronger focus on their different styles of tanking:

WAR should be ideal for tanking large groups of weaker mobs while PLD should be a better tank for fewer, stronger mobs.

To represent the WAR's reckless style, and to ruther separate WAR's DD and tanking roles I would like to see the following changes to Rampage:

MRD:



PLD just needs another enmity-generating tool at its disposal in order to better take hate back when it is lost.

GLD:

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I'll admit that's fair as a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

PLD works quite well actually, the problem is that WAR can be a hardcore DD while it tanks...

PLD and MRD need a stronger focus on their different styles of tanking:

WAR should be ideal for tanking large groups of weaker mobs while PLD should be a better tank for fewer, stronger mobs.

To represent the WAR's reckless style, and to ruther separate WAR's DD and tanking roles I would like to see the following changes to Rampage:

MRD:



PLD just needs another enmity-generating tool at its disposal in order to better take hate back when it is lost.

GLD:

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WAR has enough acc problems, thank you. Acc penalty would render using Rampage useless. Using it would LOWER WAR's enmity generation, I would never use it. Also, going back to the "fading upon moving" would be retarded with the amount of moving tanks have to do to avoid TP moves from bosses.

WAR has to remain a tank. Making WAR only a DD would require total revamp of the class. Here's why: WARs' damage dealing abilities are not on par with other DD classes (MNK/DRG/BLM). WARs don't have ANY abilities that reduce their enmity gain, thus making them unable to deliver similar damage compared to other DD classes without pulling hate.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

WAR should be ideal for tanking large groups of weaker mobs while PLD should be a better tank for fewer, stronger mobs.

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I'm pretty sure this'll cause problems down the road, as it is "Fodder tank vs boss tank". Niche design is bad enough for DPS, and it's even worse when applied to tanks.

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To represent the WAR's reckless style, and to ruther separate WAR's DD and tanking roles I would like to see the following changes to Rampage: Increases your attack speed and power while reducing your accuracy for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk. Recast timer changed from :10 to :30

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I'd vote against reducing accuracy and more towards increasing damage taken or reducing something else.

I may be for it if the acc reduction is a set amount and is a percentage instead of a flat number. Leaving the reduction as a flat number would make accuracy a hot commodity for gearing WAR and allows one to circumvent the design by stacking accuracy. Then again, reducing accuracy messes with the intent behind the ability.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I don't see why Warrior got so many tank abilities when jobs came out. I like being a Warrior to off tank or tank if the Paladin does die. I hate that Paladin pretty much became obsolete in everything.

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I'd rather both be equal in tanking and be acceptable choices for the tank role. If Lina Lux the Warrior and Duelle Urelle the Paladin can tank the content at a similar capacity, and Lina Lux is on when invites are going out, then Lina should get the spot. Not get told "sorry, we're waiting for Duelle to log on because he's a PLD".

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Originally Posted by Dragon

You like chicks in turtles? Wat.

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This:
http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pi...just-gross.jpg

And this:
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/snapper_1.jpg

I likey :)

Unless the dps difference between war and pld is balanced people would always go for the one that does higher dps. Most people do not care if its easier to keep a pld alive because a skilled whm won't have a problem either way. In fact it can be harder to keep a pld alive due to its lower hp pool. What it comes down to is people wanting the run to go faster trash and boss so therefore people pick war. Its gotten to the point that people won't invite a pld to tank even ifrit because they rather have a war. The other benefit to war is they hold hate much better then a pld due to the fact that most enmity in this game is gained by doing damage, meaning your dps can go much harder on the boss and not have to hold back when you have a war instead of a pld.

SE doesn't seem to realize they need to balance tank damage and aoe tanking ability or one will always be preferred.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'm pretty sure this'll cause problems down the road, as it is "Fodder tank vs boss tank". Niche design is bad enough for DPS, and it's even worse when applied to tanks.

I'd vote against reducing accuracy and more towards increasing damage taken or reducing something else.

I may be for it if the acc reduction is a set amount and is a percentage instead of a flat number. Leaving the reduction as a flat number would make accuracy a hot commodity for gearing WAR and allows one to circumvent the design by stacking accuracy. Then again, reducing accuracy messes with the intent behind the ability.
I'd rather both be equal in tanking and be acceptable choices for the tank role. If Lina Lux the Warrior and Duelle Urelle the Paladin can tank the content at a similar capacity, and Lina Lux is on when invites are going out, then Lina should get the spot. Not get told "sorry, we're waiting for Duelle to log on because he's a PLD".

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I'm building a party, there is a WAR and a PLD seeking... I could either invite the PLD, who will take slightly less curing to keep alive, or I could invite a WAR who will tank 90% as well, keep hate just as well and act as a full-fledged DD on top of it all. The only thing it will take is a few extra cures from a WHM to make up the difference.

Why would I ever invite the PLD?

And isn't that the problem that we are dealing with atm?

So the solutions are:

• Make PLD a better tank - Not really needed.. PLD does a great job of holding hate and has good survivability. Hard to improve on that.
• Make WAR a weaker tank - Might be an option, but the Dev's have said that they want WAR to have the highest HP and raw damage in the game. So unless they drop WAR's DEF or Emnity generation, it isn't gonna happen.
• Make PLD a better DD while tanking A bad idea that just muddies the water between PLD and WAR. Jobs are supposed to stress differences in roles.
• Make WAR a worse DD while tanking - The most viable option. Force WAR to choose between being a DD or tank via their abilities. This is already part of WAR's current design. Many of their offensive abilities automatically remove their defensive abilities.

It seems obvious to me that the PLD-WAR tanking tweaks should take direction from the 4th option as that is the current path the Dev's have chosen for it.

Reducing Accuracy while tanking seems to be a perfectly reasonable fix for WAR. But if there is one thing I know, ppl hate all nerf with no benefit. So maybe try this:

MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed, but (significantly) reduces your attack power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.
• Berzerk: Increases your attack power and (significantly) reduces your defense with each successful attack. Effect resets upon taking damage and fades upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Rampage

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I'm building a party, there is a WAR and a PLD seeking... I could either invite the PLD, who will take slightly less curing to keep alive, or I could invite a WAR who will tank 90% as well, keep hate just as well and act as a full-fledged DD on top of it all. The only thing it will take is a few extra cures from a WHM to make up the difference.

Why would I ever invite the PLD?

And isn't that the problem that we are dealing with atm?

So the solutions are:

• Make PLD a better tank - Not really needed.. PLD does a great job of holding hate and has good survivability. Hard to improve on that.
• Make WAR a weaker tank - Might be an option, but the Dev's have said that they want WAR to have the highest HP and raw damage in the game. So unless they drop WAR's DEF or Emnity generation, it isn't gonna happen.
• Make PLD a better DD while tanking A bad idea that just muddies the water between PLD and WAR. Jobs are supposed to stress differences in roles.
• Make WAR a worse DD while tanking - Another viable option. Force WAR to choose between being a DD or tank via their abilities. This is already part of WAR's current design. Many of their offensive abilities automatically remove their defensive abilities.

It seems obvious to me that the PLD-WAR tanking tweaks should take direction from the 4th option as that is the current path the Dev's have chosen for it.

Reducing Accuracy while tanking seems to be a perfectly reasonable fix for WAR. But if there is one thing I know, ppl hate all nerf with no benefit. So maybe try this:

MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed but reduces your attack power (significantly) for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.
• Berzerk: Increases your attack power and speed (slightly) and reduces your defense with each successful attack. Effect resets upon taking damage and fades upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Rampage

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Zen i agree with a lot of what you are saying but pld is not a good dmg reducing tank war does that better also. A war can parry one time during a fight and a pld could block 3 times the war still takes less dmg.

Edit: also instead of acc loss they could just do an attack down effect. How like Defender worked in XI. Rampage does the same thing but cuts dps in half.

PLD doesn't compare to MRD.

1: All that physical immunity with little life, but all the NMs killer moves are non-Physical = PLD useless.
2: Cant hold hate as well as WAR: PLD cant do any dmg AE, Only Taunt. And Damage always wins over Taunts. War has collusion which when used on a BLM or whatever gets insane hate. Also they have Steel Cyclone, high dmg AE even more hate.

So all in all it sums up to: War does more damage, gets more Enmity, has more life, can wear the same gear as PLD.
PLd = useless.

I've said this before: Give paladin 700 more life ( 200 less than War ) make one of his skills block sometihng other than physical...and a fast Cooldown low dmg enmity generating AE. And get rid of casting time on heal. Done. So easy....PLD is good again.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Zen i agree with a lot of what you are saying but pld is not a good dmg reducing tank war does that better also. A war can parry one time during a fight and a pld could block 3 times the war still takes less dmg.

Edit: also instead of acc loss they could just do an attack down effect. How like Defender worked in XI. Rampage does the same thing but cuts dps in half.

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You quoted me before I made a quick edit. But yeah, Attack down is a good solution.

Also, you are 100% correct about the parry/block issue. That needs to be addressed in this whole fix.

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Originally Posted by zergasaur

PLD doesn't compare to MRD.

1: All that physical immunity with little life, but all the NMs killer moves are non-Physical = PLD useless.
2: Cant hold hate as well as WAR: PLD cant do any dmg AE, Only Taunt. And Damage always wins over Taunts. War has collusion which when used on a BLM or whatever gets insane hate. Also they have Steel Cyclone, high dmg AE even more hate.

So all in all it sums up to: War does more damage, gets more Enmity, has more life, can wear the same gear as PLD.
PLd = useless.

I've said this before: Give paladin 700 more life ( 200 less than War ) make one of his skills block sometihng other than physical...and a fast Cooldown low dmg enmity generating AE. And get rid of casting time on heal. Done. So easy....PLD is good again.

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Good suggestions. I was thinking earlier that PLD could gain additional def vs Spells and Elemental attacks via Divine Veil or Tempered Will. Let MRD be the king of Physical tanking if need be, Let PLD be able to handle spells, enfeelbing, etc..

To go with that, Enduring March should lose its general enfeebling resistance bonus.

I still think that Rage of Halone should generate a crap-ton of enmity when combo'd.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Wow nice way to miss the point, the fact is that WAR acts as both a main tank and a DD at the same time, and thats why people choose them over PLD.

Nobody is saying stop WAR from tanking we are simply saying if a WAR chooses to tank they should take a hit in the amount of damage they do, now you could argue that the reason WAR keeps hate is down to its DPS output but thats what needs to be fixed, because unless it is people will continue to favour WAR.

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No, I think you misunderstood. Or you did not see my first post in this thread where I said I am in favor of paladins being buffed up to standards or even being reworked. That post is more directed to people yelling "nerfnerfnerf." If both are implemented that is what is going to happen. Take away the Warriors damage and we have another weak low accuracy class that has a low delay on their auto attack, can't store tp and won't be able to hold hate. What kind of tank can't hold hate? Take away their defense and we have a weaker version of dragoon or monk which in turn will be a damage dealer who can't use 3/5 skills that a warrior has been given.

At the current pace, this will always favor one class over the other and then we will be in the same situation with Warrior being on the other side. I feel like warrior is a well balanced class and gives us options. I do not feel like Paladin should be the only tank class in the game and I think they should be better than what they are now. To me, every class took a step forward with their jobs while Paladin took a step back.

And yes, people are saying. You may not be, but other people definitely are.

What is the timer on foresight? What is the timer on aegis boon?
Can you parry or block magical damage?
Do you take damage from attacks blocked with aegis boon?
How many parry/partial parry do you get without foresight? I hardly see any.... Idk why parry is referenced so often.
I'd reference Vengeance way more often if trying to make the mitigation point.....

People keep saying war Dps is not good but i haven't seen anyone dps on mrd normally. I would like see an mrd's parser on a Boss fight but it wont happen cause its either blm or mnk >_>

@ Nullie

Turning PLD into a better DD is NOT how to fix this.