Alliance raids have no business being a relic step.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm just sitting here, bemused, that someone hates the most creative raid series of the game (Stormblood) enough to grind fates for 6 hours instead.

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Creative doesn't equal enjoyable. I find them absolutely miserable because they're loose amalgamations of vaguely related mechanics that people seem to have a boner for, and I just do not understand.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

Creative doesn't equal enjoyable. I find them absolutely miserable because they're loose amalgamations of vaguely related mechanics that people seem to have a boner for, and I just do not understand.

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Could just run them until you do understand them, then. You might find you like them.

The relic steps are a convenient excuse to nudge you in this direction.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Could just run them until you do understand them, then. You might find you like them.

The relic steps are a convenient excuse to nudge you in this direction.

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Sure... or some people don't enjoy running stuff over and over and over and over until it's "muscle memorized" and do it the "braindead easy" way. Not everyone gets the feel of exhilaration and adrenalin jump when clearing (in their point of view) hard content. Sound weird, but it is true. Yes, sure, for good players everything is "braindead easy" sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Sure... or some people don't enjoy running stuff over and over and over and over until it's "muscle memorized" and do it the "braindead easy" way. Not everyone gets the feel of exhilaration and adrenalin jump when clearing (in their point of view) hard content. Sound weird, but it is true. Yes, sure, for good players everything is "braindead easy" sooner or later.

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It's level 70 content. You're not new to the game at this point. It's also not hard content. It's also comparatively nerfed since 4.0.

If you're not able to do this at 80, I'm perfectly fine with the game putting a barrier up before you get a 520 weapon. You can overcome that barrier with sheer tenacity (fate grinding for 12 hours) or... actually obtain level 70 in player ability.

Come to think of it, how the heck do you think you're going to get the next step clear if you can't handle Ivalice? DR is a huge step up from that. You're going to spend more time dead than alive if you can't handle mechanics.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

It's level 70 content. You're not new to the game at this point. It's also not hard content. It's also comparatively nerfed since 4.0.

If you're not able to do this at 80, I'm perfectly fine with the game putting a barrier up before you get a 520 weapon. You can overcome that barrier with sheer tenacity (fate grinding for 12 hours) or... actually obtain level 70 in player ability.

Come to think of it, how the heck do you think you're going to get the next step clear if you can't handle Ivalice? DR is a huge step up from that. You're going to spend more time dead than alive if you can't handle mechanics.

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I can, and have, cleared DR with no trouble. I cleared it first night.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

I can, and have, cleared DR with no trouble. I cleared it first night.

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Cool, so we know you have the ability. The only thing keeping you grinding fates is plain stubbornness.

That's not Square's problem.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Cool, so we know you have the ability. The only thing keeping you grinding fates is plain stubbornness.

That's not Square's problem.

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So balancing the game isn't SE's problem? The drop rate issue is causing a massive mechanical imbalance, and most game companies, although apparently not square, when they see a situation where one method of achieving a result is massively more effective than the other available methods and they would either significantly nerf the good method, or significantly buff the bad method(s).

Besides, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Ivalice isn't hard, the issue is that it's not at all fun for me, and generally I prefer to actually enjoy the time I spend playing a game, especially when I'm paying monthly to play it.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

So balancing the game isn't SE's problem? The drop rate issue is causing a massive mechanical imbalance, and most game companies, although apparently not square, when they see a situation where one method of achieving a result is massively more effective than the other available methods and they would either significantly nerf the good method, or significantly buff the bad method(s).

Besides, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Ivalice isn't hard, the issue is that it's not at all fun for me, and generally I prefer to actually enjoy the time I spend playing a game, especially when I'm paying monthly to play it.

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I encourage you to play exactly what you want. If the relic steps provided aren't fun for you, then I absolutely encourage you to skip the relic. I did exactly that for the Eureka relic.

The steps are balanced, though. 18 runs of Ivalice is a substantial amount of time if you consider queue times, and 12 hours of fates is a good failsafe if you can't get the queue to pop.

Before this relic, it was difficult to get any Ivalice dungeon to pop outside of prime time (at least on my datacenter) so I'm happy to see encouragement offered to queue.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Before this relic, it was difficult to get any Ivalice dungeon to pop outside of prime time (at least on my datacenter)

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If a duty isn't popping because the duty finder can't find enough people, is it possible that it's because there's something wrong with the duty?
Perhaps the duty is dead because there's insufficient interest in the duty; the plurality of people don't want to do Ivalice and Mhach raids, for their own personal reasons.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The drop rate is straight up trash. I've cleared it 37 times, I have not once gotten a hair, a mount, or a barding. I have gotten several duplicate decor, a few orchestrion roles, and a lot of field note. Oh, and I did get like 4 or 5 gold coins in my runs. Nothing I really wanted though. Hopefully the next 15 for RDM give me something I want..

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I can get having a few rare rewards, but I don't understand why they're so stingy on everything else. Silver Coins just aren't enough of a reward to make it feel worth your while and have very limited use. You don't get mettle, tomes or exp and you get a pittance in fragments. Fragments especially I don't understand when the whole instance is designed around us using them, yet you can go an entire run and end up with none. We should be getting several per boss at the least.

I know we like to joke about glamour being the "true endgame" but Enix time and time again overestimate how much we care about it. This was a big reason Castrum died, because they honestly thought 500-1000 coins for a 495 glamour item would be enough to make us spam it 50 times.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

If a duty isn't popping because the duty finder can't find enough people, is it possible that it's because there's something wrong with the duty?
Perhaps the duty is dead because there's insufficient interest in the duty; the plurality of people don't want to do Ivalice and Mhach raids, for their own personal reasons.

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Lots of people will only do something if there's loot at the end, no matter how fun or interesting it is. Why do you think they had to hotfix Bozja stuff? No one was doing Castrum except for the relic and there was never enough people. A lot of "gamers" will only do something for the incentive, not because it's fun. Oh also because the HW/SB/ShB raids aren't the total faceroll that the ARR ones are (not that they're hard, but some people would rather sleep through the raid), so they avoid it whenever possible.

I personally disagree with that way of playing, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

I'm just kind of sad that there becomes a point in the relic line where bozja isn't relevant. I'd be happier if all the relic steps could be done -in- bozja/castrum/DR. But when it was like "go to these unrelated raids/fate areas" it was kind of strange.

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Originally Posted by Titor

I'm just kind of sad that there becomes a point in the relic line where bozja isn't relevant. I'd be happier if all the relic steps could be done -in- bozja/castrum/DR. But when it was like "go to these unrelated raids/fate areas" it was kind of strange.

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Technically, the Ivalice raids are connected, but I still agree it all should 100% be able to be done, at a much faster rate, inside Bozja rather than outside of it in older content.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I can get having a few rare rewards, but I don't understand why they're so stingy on everything else. Silver Coins just aren't enough of a reward to make it feel worth your while and have very limited use. You don't get mettle, tomes or exp and you get a pittance in fragments. Fragments especially I don't understand when the whole instance is designed around us using them, yet you can go an entire run and end up with none. We should be getting several per boss at the least.

I know we like to joke about glamour being the "true endgame" but Enix time and time again overestimate how much we care about it. This was a big reason Castrum died, because they honestly thought 500-1000 coins for a 495 glamour item would be enough to make us spam it 50 times.

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I hate to be cynical, however I suspect it's because they know very little in the way of new content is coming. Therefore, they're arbitrarily trying to prolong the lifespan, especially for players who return to the game as Endwalker looms closer.

Ironically, I think such stinginess actually has the opposite effect. We're seeing that with just how many people won't use Essences/Lost Actions in DRN. No really incentive to when you'll have to farm boring trash in Bozja or throw heaps of gil at the MB. It really is quite baffling because they don't seem to care that things like endgame crafted gear is both readily available and easy to make. You'd think they would want to dump fragments on you as a way of screaming "TRY OUT THESE CRAZY BUILDS!" But that goes back my initial argument.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I hate to be cynical, however I suspect it's because they know very little in the way of new content is coming. Therefore, they're arbitrarily trying to prolong the lifespan, especially for players who return to the game as Endwalker looms closer.

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Honestly, I'd be inclined to say that such "cynicism" is warranted, after all, SE is responsible to their shareholders above all else. The issue is that they failed to account for the precedent they've set with previous content; generally, the rewards from a duty are fairly closely tied to the difficulty of that duty. I'd place DR at about the same difficulty level as Emerald Extreme, but where EmEX gave both a mount and semi-casual players' BiS weapons, DR gives some zhuzhed up Exarchic gear and an extremely rare chance at other rewards.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

Honestly, I'd be inclined to say that such "cynicism" is warranted, after all, SE is responsible to their shareholders above all else. The issue is that they failed to account for the precedent they've set with previous content; generally, the rewards from a duty are fairly closely tied to the difficulty of that duty. I'd place DR at about the same difficulty level as Emerald Extreme, but where EmEX gave both a mount and semi-casual players' BiS weapons, DR gives some zhuzhed up Exarchic gear and an extremely rare chance at other rewards.

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Honestly, I've seen the 'rare' drops of one form or another in Delubrum more often than I have seen the mount drop in EmEx. I have won the hairstyle and three orchestrion rolls in Delubrum; I've seen the mount drop once in EmEx. Total.

(I rolled a 97. Someone else won it with a 98. I'm not salty, noooo, why do you ask?)

Doesn't meant the drop rate is good, mind you, but I'm not sure contrasting it with EmEx and saying EmEx has better loot tables is the direction I'd go with this one. ;)

First of all: You must be new here, so welcome. Apparently you never did a Heavensward or ARR relic if you're complaining that you have to do old, dead content in order to get your relic weapon completed. This was a lot of what earlier relic weapons were about.

Second: This is by design. It should be better now that they buffed drop rates within Bozja, but feedback from Stormblood's relic was people hated being forced to do Eureka as the only option to complete their relic weapons. So they took that feedback and allowed people who don't like exploratory content an option to still complete a weapon. You have choices, you have the choice for every step except for one (that's more of a side quest to the relic as opposed to an actual relic quest) being able to be completed within Bozja.

Ironically this is the first thread I've seen that there's not ENOUGH Bozja for the relic (drop rates within Bozja sure) rather than people complaining that after the initial steps, people thought they were mislead and being forced to do TOO MUCh Bojza. But guess you can't ever satisfy everyone...

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Honestly, I've seen the 'rare' drops of one form or another in Delubrum more often than I have seen the mount drop in EmEx. I have won the hairstyle and three orchestrion rolls in Delubrum; I've seen the mount drop once in EmEx. Total.

(I rolled a 97. Someone else won it with a 98. I'm not salty, noooo, why do you ask?)

Doesn't meant the drop rate is good, mind you, but I'm not sure contrasting it with EmEx and saying EmEx has better loot tables is the direction I'd go with this one. ;)

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The issue with that is that in EmEX, a single drop is only being shared by 8 people at most. In contrast, DR is sharing a comparably rare drop with 24 people, giving any single person a 3x lower chance of getting the item.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

First of all: You must be new here, so welcome. Apparently you never did a Heavensward or ARR relic if you're complaining that you have to do old, dead content in order to get your relic weapon completed. This was a lot of what earlier relic weapons were about.

Second: This is by design. It should be better now that they buffed drop rates within Bozja, but feedback from Stormblood's relic was people hated being forced to do Eureka as the only option to complete their relic weapons. So they took that feedback and allowed people who don't like exploratory content an option to still complete a weapon. You have choices, you have the choice for every step except for one (that's more of a side quest to the relic as opposed to an actual relic quest) being able to be completed within Bozja.

Ironically this is the first thread I've seen that there's not ENOUGH Bozja for the relic (drop rates within Bozja sure) rather than people complaining that after the initial steps, people thought they were mislead and being forced to do TOO MUCh Bojza. But guess you can't ever satisfy everyone...

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First, cut the condescension, I don't care that you suffered through a Zodiac/Anima weapon, one would expect that the dev team would learn from their past mistakes.
Second, how selfish can you be that you think "people hated eureka" is a valid response to "Drop rates between Bozja and old content should be such that there is a comparable time investment between the two methods"?
Third, yes, we were mislead, all available first-party resources talked about the various methods of attaining progression with this relic as though they were basically comparable, when in reality, Bozja was far and away the worse method for attaining these items. People complained about wanting to be able to do Eureka weapons outside of Eureka, and so what we got was a situation where we've got the ShB equivalent to the Eureka weapons, where it's better to only ever touch Bozja to get rank 10 and clear Castrum and DR once, then go do the entire weapon without Bozja.

People who like the old content are being told "oh precious, you didn't like Eureka, here, you can do this in half the time by only doing the bare minimum possible amount of Bozja."

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

The issue with that is that in EmEX, a single drop is only being shared by 8 people at most. In contrast, DR is sharing a comparably rare drop with 24 people, giving any single person a 3x lower chance of getting the item.

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While you're correct on EmEx, I actually don't think the loot table is shared in Delubrum; since the chests are personal spoils you don't need to roll on, I suspect the contents of the chest are determined without regards to the contents of someone else's chest.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

While you're correct on EmEx, I actually don't think the loot table is shared in Delubrum; since the chests are personal spoils you don't need to roll on, I suspect the contents of the chest are determined without regards to the contents of someone else's chest.

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No way to know for certain, but yes, that would most likely be the least intensive way to handle it on the backend.

Requiring DR or POTD for the last step essentially means that his content can't be solo'd in the future.

And that's a problem.

If nothing else, put a Timeworn Cluster on some sort of daily roulette (expert or alliance) or put 5 in the Weekly DR quest.

Each would give you essentially a relic in two weeks timeframe which is the exact same rate as if you were saving tomes for a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I finally got my 50 run achievement just now, and got The Queen Awakes roll(finally!) still no barding(completely forgot there is one that drops there), and still need one more hair for myself. It really does need a 5% boost to drop rates(most of them are probably already at 1-5% drop rate as is)

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Same! Earlier today, DR is what I've been doing all day past couple days. I think I have 52 clears now, NOT ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE, single hair, barding, or mount. It's completely ridiculous. I told myself if I didn't get the hair in 15 runs I would just buy it... so I did!

Also, this has been irritating me to no end..

https://i.imgur.com/OdHkicm.png

I have gotten quite a few duplicates of some of these pieces, but I only have 1 sword guy, and the raid doesn't even have the common courtesy to let me complete TWO sets! (decor)

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I can get having a few rare rewards, but I don't understand why they're so stingy on everything else. Silver Coins just aren't enough of a reward to make it feel worth your while and have very limited use. You don't get mettle, tomes or exp and you get a pittance in fragments. Fragments especially I don't understand when the whole instance is designed around us using them, yet you can go an entire run and end up with none. We should be getting several per boss at the least.

I know we like to joke about glamour being the "true endgame" but Enix time and time again overestimate how much we care about it. This was a big reason Castrum died, because they honestly thought 500-1000 coins for a 495 glamour item would be enough to make us spam it 50 times.

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The reward structure for Bozja as a whole has been really bad. Silver coins might as well be throwaway; trash. No mettle - you lose mettle, no tomes, no exp, and yeah pittance in fragments. It's awful, the only real reason to do DR is for the relic step, and to top it all off the relic is only really worth it if you like the look of it!

I agree. They really overestimated the players want for not only these weapons, but also the near-unobtainable Dyeable judge gear. It's baffling to me! At the VERY least if they are going to try and produce some long term filler, or padding, make it worthwhile - this is barely so. With these droprates, even the stuff people want is so hard to get, they might as well give up and just buy it from somebody who had rng on their side!

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I hate to be cynical, however I suspect it's because they know very little in the way of new content is coming. Therefore, they're arbitrarily trying to prolong the lifespan, especially for players who return to the game as Endwalker looms closer.

Ironically, I think such stinginess actually has the opposite effect.

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

Honestly, I'd be inclined to say that such "cynicism" is warranted, after all, SE is responsible to their shareholders above all else. The issue is that they failed to account for the precedent they've set with previous content; generally, the rewards from a duty are fairly closely tied to the difficulty of that duty.

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It's all cheap padding. That's it. Find some random content, make people do it. Ivalice raids, or more specifically Rabanastre, might as well be just as mindless as CT. Actually I HATE the HW raids more than CT, it took me a full week to get myself through Void Ark ALONE!

But that's how it's always been under Yoship since A realm reborn. Stormblood was an exception that a lot of people didn't like; this time they just gave both people both options. After your first weapon you never have to do old Alliance raids, you can do your weapons entirely in Bozja. Yes Delubrum Reginae is in Bozja.

So what's the problem?

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

But that's how it's always been under Yoship since A realm reborn. Stormblood was an exception that a lot of people didn't like; this time they just gave both people both options. After your first weapon you never have to do old Alliance raids, you can do your weapons entirely in Bozja. Yes Delubrum Reginae is in Bozja.

So what's the problem?

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If you don't understand what people have an issue with, I would suggest going back through the thread a bit and reading up on it.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

But that's how it's always been under Yoship since A realm reborn. Stormblood was an exception that a lot of people didn't like; this time they just gave both people both options. After your first weapon you never have to do old Alliance raids, you can do your weapons entirely in Bozja. Yes Delubrum Reginae is in Bozja.

So what's the problem?

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I find it hilarious how staunchly opposed to seeing the point you are.
But whatever, no point feeding a troll anyways.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

If you don't understand what people have an issue with, I would suggest going back through the thread a bit and reading up on it.

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I suggest you do the same, you're lost.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

I find it hilarious how staunchly opposed to seeing the point you are.
But whatever, no point feeding a troll anyways.

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The irony.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

I suggest you do the same, you're lost.


The irony.

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I've been here this whole time. Try again. Actually, might be best if you don't. For your own sake, not mine.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I've been here this whole time. Try again. Actually, might be best if you don't. For your own sake, not mine.

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This is you right now
https://i.imgur.com/Oh83bXZ.gif

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

This is you right now
https://i.imgur.com/Oh83bXZ.gif

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So... Because he disagrees with you he's clueless?

Besides, what's up with you anyways? You've repeatedly claimed to have played during Stormblood, yet your forum account isn't anywhere near that old, and your character's highest level job is Black Mage at 60.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

So... Because he disagrees with you he's clueless?

Besides, what's up with you anyways? You've repeatedly claimed to have played during Stormblood, yet your forum account isn't anywhere near that old, and your character's highest level job is Black Mage at 60.

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That guy likes to enter threads, argue with people until they give up out of frustration and then claim they've won. lol I won't bother with them from here on out, and neither should you. Just looking to spare you that if I can.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That guy likes to enter threads, argue with people until they give up out of frustration and then claim they've won. lol I won't bother with them from here on out, and neither should you. Just looking to spare you that if I can.

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That's fair. Thank you for that.

Frustrating that people like that exist, but I guess it's inevitable that when you have as many players as FF14 does, you're gonna get a few problem people.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

That's fair. Thank you for that.

Frustrating that people like that exist, but I guess it's inevitable that when you have as many players as FF14 does, you're gonna get a few problem people.

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Aside from a few bad apples we're generally a pleasant bunch. :p Unless some sort of change to the game is made, then it's anarchy. We don't like change around these parts, even if we don't understand it ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Aside from a few bad apples we're generally a pleasant bunch. :p Unless some sort of change to the game is made, then it's anarchy. We don't like change around these parts, even if we don't understand it ourselves.

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I feel that, and I guess I'm not immune to it either; I rolled in here complaining about a change that was made, even though there's a probably equally sized group of people who like the choice of using Alliance Raids instead of world content.

Ignoring the obvious bullying and harassment you finally admitted that the world doesn't revolve around you when it comes to the Bozja/old content dynamic the devs decided to implement in this relic step. You're literally agreeing with us when we said that as much as you don't like alliance raids, there are others like myself who dislike everything Eureka and Bozja stand form in terms of relic design. Took you 12 pages of throwing tantrums though.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

So... Because he disagrees with you he's clueless?

Besides, what's up with you anyways? You've repeatedly claimed to have played during Stormblood, yet your forum account isn't anywhere near that old, and your character's highest level job is Black Mage at 60.

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Disregading of their character level, trolling or not, a quick reminder: The forum join date has nothing to do with how long they have been playing the game. These are two entire seperate dates. Technically someone could have played since beta or the beginning of 2.0 and just have created their forum account yesterday. The only(?) way to see behind this is the Lodestone profile, I think.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I know we like to joke about glamour being the "true endgame" but Enix time and time again overestimate how much we care about it. This was a big reason Castrum died, because they honestly thought 500-1000 coins for a 495 glamour item would be enough to make us spam it 50 times.

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Semantics perhaps, but I don't think they're overestimating how much we care, but how much we're willing to put ourselves through because of that care.

Ultimately I didn't like the Judge gear that much, but if I did - yes I would still care very much that I wanted it, but it wouldn't make me willing to go through the grind to get it. One dyeable outfit isn't worth that effort.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Semantics perhaps, but I don't think they're overestimating how much we care, but how much we're willing to put ourselves through because of that care.

Ultimately I didn't like the Judge gear that much, but if I did - yes I would still care very much that I wanted it, but it wouldn't make me willing to go through the grind to get it. One dyeable outfit isn't worth that effort.

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I think this is the real crux of the issue here, the specific duty aside, the amount of trouble we're expected to go to for almost everything in patch 5.45 (the notable exception being BLU), is significantly higher than one might be up for. I get the feeling that this will be adjusted in future, though I doubt that the chosen duties will change, regardless of my or anyone else's feelings on the matter.

Edit to add: Regarding the dyable judge gear, the requirements are frankly absurd, and I doubt that SE really intends for people to get it in a reasonable timeframe; The upgrade item drops from Delubrum Reginae (Savage) at a rare rate, but you get a guaranteed 1/10th of a random upgrade item each clear. In addition to that item, you need a set of augmented Bozjan gear, which costs (depending on the piece) as much as 1027 bozjan coins, and a non-augmented Law's Order piece, costing between 2 and 4 Bozjan Gold Coins.

Honestly, I worry that this is a sign of the development team moving towards increasing the player count for the highest level content, and I don't believe that that would be a wise decision. Imagine if, in order to do a savage raid, you had to get together 2 full parties, I think that'd be more than enough to completely kill casual raiding.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Disregading of their character level, trolling or not, a quick reminder: The forum join date has nothing to do with how long they have been playing the game. These are two entire seperate dates. Technically someone could have played since beta or the beginning of 2.0 and just have created their forum account yesterday. The only(?) way to see behind this is the Lodestone profile, I think.

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Also, I've noticed a pattern of people using alts on their forums accounts. Either because they're trolls, they don't want people searching for their main's logs, etc. so they can hide behind a basically anonymous account because there's no link to their main character.

I'm always pretty suspicious of people who do that; even I don't do that, and I can get a bit paranoid sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Ultimately I didn't like the Judge gear that much, but if I did - yes I would still care very much that I wanted it, but it wouldn't make me willing to go through the grind to get it. One dyeable outfit isn't worth that effort.

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Yep! Frankly, even if the gear looked AMAZING. I still would think the grind was not only near impossible, but not even worth it. I wouldn't do it even for ONE set.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Also, I've noticed a pattern of people using alts on their forums accounts. Either because they're trolls, they don't want people searching for their main's logs, etc. so they can hide behind a basically anonymous account because there's no link to their main character.

I'm always pretty suspicious of people who do that; even I don't do that, and I can get a bit paranoid sometimes.

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My name is SturmChurro, my character's name is Sturm Churro, and even my alt is attached to this profile, but I've still had people accuse me of being an alt (I hope they were kidding). :( But yes, a lot people seem to like to hide behind alts, agreed.