You did get a damage penalty. this argument only works with 50 content (no deliverance): war lost 5%, beast gauge crit buff% (in HW, max stacks was 10%), and no access to fell cleave for 10s (5 gcds).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
And that last sentence is a major reason of why Warrior is dead. No, you don't give all the tanks the same thing, that's the problem we are in right now. Resistances needed to go though. War was not required as other jobs brought slashing (a paladin/dark knight comp was trash for multiple reasons), but dragoon's piercing resistance though, THAT was messed up. Only drg could bring that, slashing wasnt exclusive.
Were you a pld at the time? PF didn't really lock one slot WAR only, but often they'd lock one for pld only (man, my alt was a samurai that got blocked).Quote:
At the time I had to take my hiatus the consensus seemed to be that if you weren't WAR you were crippling your party DPS.
I mean, I do lock out jobs in my PFs, I'm competitive, but I mean.... I also just don't like mch :V (they bully too hard). I don't enforce meta, tho and its still circumstantial.
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06-05-2020, 06:14 PMmillktea
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06-05-2020, 07:41 PMmillkteaPaladin has the worst mitigation in the game. Its missing a cd. Gnb gets a consistent shield with its rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
GNB being the least played doesn't define its difficulty.
There is more thought into playing warrior, barret. As its complexity revolves around IR timings and gauge management, which you used to say how gnb is more challenging. You're cds are 30s/60s, this makes the job very simple. The cd is so low that you can get away with delaying NM. Let me tell you how to gnb: you essentially hit stuff on cd.
Watch your charges so you don't use Bloodfest on cooldown overcapping. same for infuriate and inner chaos. There are times a war needs to know to use Inf for beast gauge and not just IC. This is also similar of knowing each Beast skill shaves 5s off Inf cd, so war needs to watch out and be proactive so you don't lose those seconds/ charges
Only weave one of the OGCDs during continuation combo if available (not counting the continuation OGCD proc) timing weaving on Warrior so you don't clip a
gcd during IR, which holds essentially most of your damage. This includes IC. Wars animation's are long and cause clipping which can cause a lost DHC fc. Even upheaval or onslaught can clip in IR. Most of WARs dps is in IR, but this isn't necessarily true for GNB.
Know your timing of the fight so you know to prioritize continuing your base combo after continuation so you don't drop that combo. sounds like Inner Release, storms eye, and most jobs in this game. Not exclusive to GNB.
Sometimes you have to start continuation early like in Shiva icelit 1 so you don't drop your standard combo progression during the knockback. you also need to make sure that you use IR and your charges so don't lose them and reapply eye so its still up. There are times you need to make sure you cut your gauge, popped IC, and reapply eye just before boss jumps so you're reapplying is still buffed
Nothing you said was anything different than WAR. All you did was "omit complexity" on war to make it seem less difficult than it actually is and tried to say more stuff about GNB to make it seem harder. Warriors complexity is Inner Release timings and gauge management. There is optimization in storms eye and gauge, just like the things you mentioned with GNB, but you did not bother to bring it up (oh, but in my thread, you did. Hmm...). There are times that putting up eye isn't worth it if you get an extra IR out of it
GNB takes 2-3 gcds for 1 cartridge. War needs 6 for 1 beast skill (sometimes 4 in aoe) and needs to maintain Storms Eye (and to gapclose or upheaval, you need gauge). As long as WARs damage is tied to BG, WAR is harder than GNB.
You only showed your bias and lack of perspective. There's more to WAR than just keeping up SE and not hitting IC during IR (which, btw, there are circumstances you DO hit it during IR).
I understand you dislike war losing a lot of buttons and it got "simplified", but that doesn't make it easier than gunbreaker. -
06-26-2020, 10:43 PMSeraphor
Some ideas for level 90 skills that would help give tanks a bit more identity. Although these assume that the rest of the kit stays mostly the same, which isn't too likely, but I can't hope to predict what they might change to the rest of the kit so lets just assume that they remain the same as they are now.
These are all basically skills that capitalise on their burst phases, increasing both DPS and mitigation in some way.
GNB skill: Lionheart
After completing one full Continuation combo, Continuation becomes 'Lionheart' 200 potency oGCD which can be hit as many times as you can for 6s, with each hit increasing the damage of the next one by 10%.
Additional Effect: Each use of Lionheart reduces the cooldowns of Heart of Light and Heart of Stone by 5s.
(Basically extends your Continuation burst and makes the 2nd phase more hectic with double weaving instead of single weaving)
DRK skill: Blood Curse
If 5 Bloodspiller or Quietus' were used during Delirium, Delirium upgrades to Blood Curse.
Blood Curse: Duration 6s. Bloodspiller and Quietus only consume 20 Blackblood. All Weaponskills deal 5% more damage, drain 5% of your Current HP and restore 1000 MP.
Additional Effect: The cooldown of 'The Blackest Night' resets when Blood Curse expires.
(requires more resource management (reserving Blackblood for Blood Curse) and HP awareness (HP drain), but rewards you with an additional TBN and the MP to use it)
WAR skill: Exculpated Rage (recast 180s)
(extra skill, not actually an upgraded skill, because WAR doesn't need it)
Increases damage resistance by a further 20%. Reduces the recast on all Weaponskills by 1s. Only Weaponskills can be used. Duration 6s.
(A true 'berserk' skill that's active every other Inner Release, allowing for maybe 2 or 3 additional Fell Cleaves within that window. Requires good timing, use of any necessary abilities before hand, and differentiates it further from DRK.)
PLD spell: Holy Orison (2000 MP)
Clemency upgrades to Holy Orison under the effect of Requiescat. Returns to Clemency after one use.
Grants self and all party members in range a 100 potency Regen for 9s. This is increased to 200 potency to any party members under the effect of Divine Veil.
Increases the potency of your next three spells by 50%.
(basically replaces a Holy Spirit (350+175 potency) for another +175 on two Holy Spirits and +400 potency on Confiteor. only slight DPS increase (+225 in total) but breaks up the Holy spam a bit and doubles down on party mitigation.) -
06-29-2020, 01:00 AMLucy_PyreWithout proper testing to see how much of a DPS increase this would cause, I admit I like the idea on paper. Although I don't think it needs damage mitigation tied to it. Other than that, though, it does seem like a good ability. Giving an extra couple of Fell Cleave's under Inner Release is pretty huge so I can see a 3 minute cooldown being entirely justifiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Edit: On thinking over it for a moment longer, cutting the GCD by 1 second would only allow for 1 extra FC under IR due to it restricting you from using non-weaponskills, as the combo would go: IR -> FC + Upheaval + Onslaught -> Fell Cleave + Excul -> FC -> FC -> FC -> FC. Because it locks you out of abilities it means that you must use your first GCD of IR on both Upheaval and Onslaught. Then combine that with the fact that you cannot use this new skill until the end of your next GCD's weave slot and, by the time you activate it, you only have 5 seconds left on Inner Release. This 1 second of lost time cuts you down from gaining a potential 2 additional Fell Cleave's to only 1. In order to get 2 you would need to be able to cast abilities under this buff's effect, so that you could do this combo instead: IR -> FC + Excul -> FC + Upheaval -> FC + Onslaught -> FC -> FC -> FC -> FC.
Edit 2: The other alternative would be to simply not use Onslaught during Inner Release, which would allow you to use this new ability in the 2nd weave slot of your first IR FC and delay Upheaval until your last or next to last GCD of Inner Release. However, this also presents a problem, as most WARs tend to run 2.38 GCD, and Upheaval has some very slight drifting at that GCD which will typically cause it to, over multiple minutes of sustained combat, drift from the 1st GCD weave under IR to the 2nd, 3rd, etc. Meaning that if you wait to use your initial Upheaval on your opener IR until near the end of the buff it is massively accelerating this drifting problem.
TL;DR - Allow for the skill to let the user cast abilities along with weaponskills and the only potential issue with its functionality fades. -
06-29-2020, 01:50 AMSeraphor
Perhaps if it only excluded specifically non-damaging abilities.
Thus allowing the use of Onslaught. -
07-06-2020, 07:46 PMTofuPenguin
Job identity is something I really miss. After coming back (last time played was 2.x), I didn't recognize pld anymore. Still, I leveled an alt pld to relearn the class. Then picked up drk at 50.
Things just feel generic now and I'm not even 80 yet. And I miss the days of actually having to work to keep aggro. -
07-06-2020, 09:15 PMHeulGDarian
Ignoring all the fanfic comments, i really think they should just revert the changes to aggro that had half the extra unique abilities deleted, if they want to have accessibility in the game they can have one job that is safe and easy which imo it should be pld , could even have only one stance like now without penalty. I believe that all roles should have 1 easy and accessible job but currently the only one that provides it is the caster role. SMN BLM and RDM is the only balanced roster and one that was the least screwed over by the changes (even though smn became a clunky mess cause of those changes thanks SE....."sigh"). Till they fix all the other roles though ill keep using ACCESSIBILITY as a euphemism for shit.
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07-06-2020, 10:19 PMSatarnThis is honestly the core problem with job design right now imo. SE's opposition to provide a diverse range of complexity between the jobs within each role, is why they fail to appeal to a lot of people. There is nothing wrong with having some jobs be catered to more casual players and offer more relaxed gameplay, but some of us just need more to feel engaged.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeulGDarian
I've said it time and time again - if you try to make every job "playable" for as wide an audience as possible, you will end up with a set of jobs that a lot of people can "sorta enjoy", but ones that don't really appeal to anyone fully and for some players there will be nothing at all. Instead focus on catering each job to a specific niche and that way you'll get individual jobs which their players love, even if it's just a couple jobs per player. This is how you really make the game appealing to the wider audience. I'd rather hate some jobs and love a few, than be lukewarm about all 17+ of them.
This is also why them "fixing" jobs based on just the content participation is flawed(on top of it not really accounting for things like a fun job just being underpowered, or a boring job being overpowered) - a job having a small playerbase isn't necessarily bad if said playerbase is actually satisfied with the job's gameplay. -
07-06-2020, 11:53 PMLucy_Pyre
All I really want to see SE to for 6.0 in terms of major tank changes is for Fell Cleave to go from 590p to 600p, and Inner Chaos to go from 920p to 950p. Seriously, how awkward of potency values are 590 and 920? I know it's a really weird thing to gripe about but those potency values have always irked me. Besides that, with how high a percentage of WAR's overall damage comes from Fell Cleave and Inner Chaos these small potency buffs would also translate to putting WAR close to (or at) 2nd place for tank DPS behind GNB; which frankly, I think is where it should be. Can't say it really makes much of any sense that the tank who's supposed to fill the berserker archetype of 'take a huge hit only to rip its enemy in two and regenerate their own wounds' does less damage than the 'holy protector' of the PLD whose whole archetype gimmick is being someone that guards and protects others with his life.
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07-08-2020, 10:03 AMAbsurdity
I actually want them to rework warrior to get away from the whole direct crit debacle, all it does is cause warrior to not benefit from a lot of party buffs (Battle Litany does absolutely nothing for us since it overlaps with IR, as does Battle Voice) and it makes our BiS rather awkward since warrior is the only tank that doesn't want any direct hit melds.
At this point I would honestly prefer it's original 4.0 design, except maybe keep the cost reduction of current IR and adjust potencies accordingly because setting up your burst before 4.2 was too much effort for too little gain. This would potentially even solve the issue of warrior hitting like a wet noodle outside of IR windows. -
07-08-2020, 10:31 AMLucy_PyreNah, fuck that noise. The crit direct hit gimmick it has is one of the few unique things in terms of jobs having an identity remaining. Besides, beyond that it just means that WAR's damage is very consistent between pulls since Inner Release and Inner Chaos is a fairly big chunk of WAR's overall damage profile. Besides, people love to talk about how Litany and Voice don't benefit WAR, and I'm here to say: so what? Embolden doesn't benefit SMN, BLM, WHM, AST, SCH, or PLD's Req window if it's active during that. Brotherhood doesn't affect SMN, RDM's non-melee combo, BLM, WHM, SCH, AST, or PLD's Req window. No one is making a huge deal to change Brotherhood & Embolden to benefit all damage types rather than just physical. The same logic therefore applies to Litany & Voice. They benefit most jobs, and that's completely fine. I don't see any reason why there being a single job that a select few raid buffs don't work for is an issue only when we're talking about WAR, since it isn't an issue to anyone when talking about magic jobs. Or how no one really complains that DRG's Dragon Sight doesn't buff a SMN's pet damage which therefore makes them a horrible tether choice as that's a large portion of their burst. No, I definitely think WAR's current design with how Inner Release and Inner Chaos function is completely fine. All I think the job needs currently is some very minor potency buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
As for 6.0 changes, I quite like the idea that was posted above to give WAR a short duration, long recast buff that for a few seconds shortens their GCD and allows them to get an extra couple of Fell Cleave's under Inner Release. On, and on a side note. Since we're talking about raid buffs, MNK's Brotherhood is pretty much a WAR's best friend as it has the exact same recast timer as Inner Release and lines up almost perfectly with it. So if we're talking about a static and they're *that* worried about their WAR missing out on damage from Litany, they can consider swapping from DRG to MNK and it becomes a non-issue. Of course, I think the entire situation is a non-issue to begin with. But this is more just a counterpoint to all of that. -
07-08-2020, 12:33 PMAbsurdityI guess not benefitting from BL or BV is a minor side effect, the other tanks do however benefit from it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre
I certainly don't want even more mindless spam in IR. Would it get the job done? Sure. Would it make warrior any more interesting? Certainly not. You would just be doing what you've been doing since 4.2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre
My main issue is still with warrior's current design in general. I never considered direct crits from IR to be part of warrior's "job identity", it was simply one of many ways to improve upon HW's Fellcleaves, arguably one of it's defining features, and it was probably the easiest fix with how WAR was designed in 4.0. It felt more like a bandaid fix to me, despite it's clear positive outcome for warrior dps. The original 4.0 design failed horribly so they needed to make it somehow viable again for 4.2. -
07-08-2020, 01:17 PMLucy_PyreFell Cleave has, for the longest time (literally years at this point), been Warrior's 'thing'. You'll have to forgive me if I find it hard to believe that very many people play WAR who don't care for Fell Cleave, in the same vein that I doubt any SMN players dislike Akh Morn or Revelation. Sure, you don't spam Akh Morn or Revelation like you do Fell Cleave during Inner Release, but when you actually stop and think about it, IR is just a natural progression of Berserk. Prior to Inner Release the entire burst phase gimmick is, as I'm sure anyone who plays the job well knows, prepping 100 gauge and 1-2 Infuriate charges so that you can use Berserk and then pump out as much burst as possible within that short window with your heavy hitter. So in that sense Inner Release seems to me to be just a natural evolution of the skill. I can get that tank players in general are kinda over the whole 'spam 1 move 5 times during this buff' thing since three of the four tanks do it now, but I don't think that's a problem with WAR, I think that's a problem with DRK having been made too similar to WAR. PLD I can give a pass to that because SE did admittedly change it up a *bit* with ShB by adding a finisher to Requiescat. So rather than completely alter WAR from what it's been for literal years upon years at this point, I think it makes much more sense to give DRK a rework in 6.0 to make it feel like its own job again and not just an edgier, shadow-ier version of WAR. If they do that then I think there's really no justification left for people to complain about Inner Release and Fell Cleave since IR really just takes the one thing that WAR has always had as its main 'thing' and lets you have more of said thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
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07-08-2020, 01:24 PMAziraSyuren
I agree with the comments that say it's more about fight design than anything, and I also really liked the point about movement. I heavily disagree with the idea that tanks play more or less the same though. The only two I can say that about are DRK and WAR, but they still feel different enough to be distinct, and DRK is a lot more fun and engaging by virtue of having more buttons to press and looking more aesthetically pleasing.
Tanking just isn't exciting enough, nor is it rewarding enough, and there's very little you can do to optimize your own performance outside of fight-specific stuff. Once you press your buttons in an order vaguely resembling the correct one, pressing them in a more exact order doesn't make much of a difference. When I play DPS, optimizing my rotation actually feels like I'm doing something different. There's nothing like that with tanks. Optimizing Thunder usage on BLM feels a hell of a lot different than choosing which GCD to use Gnashing Fang on, or whether to open with Requiescat or FoF. This has been a problem with tanks for a while now, but doing it for 5+ years has gotten dull.
Also, enmity management was horrible. Enmity relying on having a NIN and/or DPS having the foresight to use diversion was absolute cancer and I'm having trouble believing that anyone who tanked in a large variety of content actually believes that changing it was a bad idea. There was nothing fun about stepping into party finder and suddenly having to do less DPS and having worse overall resource management because your party didn't play nice. Fuck that.
I can't comment on healers because I'm bad enough at healing that it's always at least kind of exciting lmao -
07-08-2020, 01:39 PMLucy_PyreThe only thing I dislike about the ShB aggro changes is that I'm no longer able to pick a DPS at-will and decide that their life is forfeit with Shirk. Now it's either 'cleave the party and kill everyone' or nothing at all. Where are the good ole target-specific retribution to a DPS that's being an obnoxious twat in chat? Shirk killing has officially become a lost art.Quote:
Originally Posted by AziraSyuren
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07-08-2020, 01:44 PMAziraSyurenShout-outs to the time I used shirk the exact second before a tank buster's cast bar came up while farming Thordan EX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre
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07-08-2020, 01:47 PMLucy_PyreThat better have been followed up with a "Thanks for being my cooldown." in chat.Quote:
Originally Posted by AziraSyuren
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07-08-2020, 01:49 PMAziraSyurenNo it actually caused us to wipe. I just felt like being petty LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre
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07-08-2020, 10:30 PMRecon1o6That was fun to read. If only we could punish those arrogant dps that do that nowadays :/Quote:
Originally Posted by AziraSyuren
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07-08-2020, 10:44 PMLiam_Harper
Sometimes I step in as a back-up tank for E6S. I don't know about other War's but I personally find fitting in IR windows a pain there. I remembered I had DRK leveled too, had a look over it as a potential replacement and realized I have the exact same "IR window" on the exact same CD. Bit depressing really.
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07-09-2020, 02:23 AMAbsurdityQuote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
Fitting in IR optimally requires you to actually take unnecessary damage in E6s with a high potential of just outright dying if you haven't practiced it enough, it's only slightly less annoying than repositioning Ramuh when his reaction time is that of a dead horse and he casts every 3 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre
I never claimed that it isn't or that I don't care about Fellcleave, it just doesn't feel all that rewarding to use anymore. Instead of it being this big burst that you set up it instead became just "a thing that you spam every 90 seconds and somewhere in between". Your IR burst requires barely any braincells to set up and the only thing that makes it even remotely interesting is trying to squeeze as many Inner Releases into a fight as possible. The fact that Inner Golfswing hits for 330 more potency without IR doesn't exactly help.
So yes, the novelty of spamming the same button for 10 seconds has long worn off. -
07-09-2020, 06:03 AMAziraSyuren
I think WAR and maybe DRK could really benefit from an SMN-like design, where your big dick burst leads into an even bigger dick burst. It wouldn't exactly fix my previously mentioned issues with tanking, but variety is something I feel is really lacking from WAR's gameplay.
Something like Inner Release (for the opener)->Pre-IR Berserk->new burst window->loop would be a lot more interesting than what we have now. Just being a Fell Cleave bot is kinda boring, and while it's our thing, there should be more to do than just our thing. -
07-09-2020, 06:21 AMHeulGDarianeeeh smn system has its own pros and cons. Ill tell you about the complete one since this isnt about the problems shb put to the job. The biggest con is that if you die you have to start all over again, the second one is that it will be long,Quote:
Originally Posted by AziraSyuren
the pros to it is that it allows you to time when your windows will hit better cause its flexible, it has moment to moment decision making and it also requires planning.
It is most definitely as high risk high reward as it gets. Though again currently it is really clunky. -
07-14-2020, 06:18 AMForteNightshadeDespite Warrior still being my preferred tank, I've felt similarly for a while now. Fell Cleave just isn't what it used to be. In Heavensward, it has the highest potency; was used sporadically, and required thought on how you built up your Wraith stacks. I still love that system as it tied both offense and defense together which suited Warrior. Inner Release around 4.1 was good once they fixed the initial problems. You had to consider your gauge, and while it was a bit spammy, the novelty of Fell Cleave hadn't worn off. By now though... Fell Cleave just isn't the big "OOMPH" button it used to be. I still enjoy it but I wish their was more thought to it and IR then "is my GCD 3/4th ready? Yes. SPAM"Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
I'm also borrowing Inner Golfswing because that sums up how underwhelming it felt for me. And I love it. -
07-14-2020, 07:22 AMLucy_PyreI don't know about you, but IR Fell Cleave is still by far the most satisfying thing in this game to me. Inner Chaos' & Chaotic Cyclone's animations are a little lackluster though..Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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07-17-2020, 06:07 AMOdysseusGR
I disagree. I enjoy playing my Paladin and the role feels pretty nice. Tank roles are now more accessible and new players can learn them easier.
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07-17-2020, 06:17 AMbundythenoobyou enjoy paladin because it was the only job whose identity and gameplay evolved with the expansion. where as both DRK and WAR were held back in terms of design. a lot of the changes in SHB that were made did indeed make tank jobs more accessible, but it did not have to come at the cost of gameplay identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by OdysseusGR
PLD is the best example of how to make tanks more accessible while retaining gameplay identity, where as DRK was outright deleted in terms of identity. neither DRK nor WAR had to suffer what they did in order to make them more accessible, and most people just want the gameplay aspects to return, not so much the emnity management or aggro combos, which were indeed holding new tank players back due to gear differences and holding veterans back due to efficiency loss -
07-19-2020, 01:43 AMAbsurdityQuote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
My only issue with 4.1 Inner Release was how little of an impact it actually had considering how much setup it required, granted I had just returned to the game in 4.1 and wasn't exactly used to the new warrior yet.
I'd argue that enmity was a gameplay aspect. Was it very engaging? Not really but it was something you needed to keep an eye on. I do however agree that it was holding new tanks back simply because the game never told them that "it's fine to stop generating enmity at some point" so they often ended up spamming enmity combos while sitting in tank stance the whole fight which consequently made their dps sink through the floor. I'm ultimately okay with them removing it...except for enmity combo animations because Butcher's Block and Power Slash are flat out better-looking than Storm's Path and Souleater.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
What I'm not okay with is that they removed a gameplay aspect, albeit a boring one, without giving us something to replace it. -
07-19-2020, 12:04 PMKazukiyashuo
Healers are perfectly fine and balanced . I dunno in whats facts ppl think they dont evolve or they dont care about them. Im playing healer since realm reborn and they never had complex dps rotations , u are whining for what a 1 , 2 dot u lost ? For the love of god. You are playing to HEAL not to dps. Thats the trend that goes around the last year that why i see everyday more and more useless healers unable to keep ppl alive cause they are focused on pressing the 1 dps button they have. If you want to dps play a dps. I remember when u had to cleric stance to dps, that was a challenge. 80% of healers couldnt perform or add any dps back then. Noone needed or asked them to dps.
About tank yeah they made easier to play and thats not bad. Even when tank stances were on. They were kind of useless anyway. A good tank was always building aggro then drop the stance for plenty of time. Some ppl refuse to accept that world is moving and changes and u cant have the same thing forever, things are evolving.
Conclusion, im very happy with healers state at this point cause without cleric stance more newbie healers can do sone dmg to contribute plus can more easily focus to do what their role is about. HEALING . Only thing im sad is that astro lost his card variety cause THIS same community was crying all day that cards are all useless and we just need balance. Now u got it. And one of the most intresting healing class became braindead. Congratz einsteins -
07-19-2020, 04:11 PMAbsurdityBalanced, maybe. Perfectly fine? Quite evidently arguable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
I'm pretty sure people are aware that healers have evolved, it's just in a direction a lot of healer mains do not enjoy. Healer was never my main job but I did give healing a try in E9-E11s, nowadays I can barely be bothered to heal in dungeons because of how mindboggingly boring they are even with wall-to-wall pulls and those fights are atleast fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
Not sure what game you're playing but when you spend over 50% of a fight not healing and instead spamming your single dps spell you're quite obviously not playing to heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
Interesting. From my completely subjective experience I've seen a lot more healers just spam healing the group or twiddling their thumbs, doing absolutely nothing, when there is no healing required, which is quite often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
Yes, a good tank knew how much enmity they would generate by their dps alone and could drop their tank stance a lot, that's what you would call a skill, something you gained with experience and not every tank could do it or wanted to do it which made their dps suffer in return. But I think we already established that making enmity a non-issue was an okay change to make the job more accessible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
One of the most baffling statements of the obvious I've read in a while. Yes things evolve and change, that's true for games as well, especially mmos. What exactly was the point? That we should accept the way the game currently is because change?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
Glad you're enjoying the game. Cleric stance however hasn't been a thing since Heavensward and Healers could always contribute "some" damage, that's what separated good healers from bad or inexperienced ones, being able to keep their party alive and contribute a decent chunk of dps to the fight. The problem right now is that HEALING is so incredibly easy that you spend a loooot of the fight dpsing, in the most unengaging way possible, spamming the same 1 button over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
I highly doubt people wanted "just balance". It's a fact that it was mathematically superior to the other cards but instead of adressing this issue by making all cards provide a benefit that is close to equal in value SE took the easy route and just made all cards a balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
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07-19-2020, 05:12 PMBillythepancakeSCH has lost Miasma, Miasma II, bane, shadowflare, cleric stance, fey wind, and at the begining of ShB they lost energy drain too until SE was yelled at constantly about how stupid that was so they gave it back. So, in a single expansion SCH lost 6 DPS abilities. I'm not sure where you're pulling up this "you've only lost 1-2 dots" nonsense from. I'm sure if I looked up HW SCH I found find even more DPS abilities they've lost. That's a pretty significant chunk of their downtime gone. Yes I am a healer, I'm also a combat medic. Healers spend most of their time DPSing, that time should be as fun as anything else. I should have something to do other than spam Broil until I go numb. If you're having fun, great, far be it from me to take that away from you, but to try and lie just to make the people who are perfectly valid in being upset seem unreasonable is just pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
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07-19-2020, 05:33 PMelioaikoI'm actually tired of seeing you repeat the same song and dance in each healer thread. Since you're so happy with how healers are, then go play and be happy. No reason to sit here and argue with us right? Also SE removing the variety from AST was not linked directly to complaints, it was hard for them to balance out and they were gunning for a way to make it consistent. Unfortunate but that's a problem you have to tell SE to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
Also, healers are just healbots to you? Idk if you are playing the same game as the rest of us but if you were half the healer you claim you are since there's so many useless ones to you these days, then you would know that you're either sitting and doing NOTHING or realizing that healer gameplay consist of healing effectively but doing that, you spend your downtime dpsing which is A LOT because of the lack of damage going out. Also SCH losing their dots is a big deal because they got nothing else in return.
We even had to beg SE to give us back Energy Drain, when we had to way to spend Aetherflow withoit dropping them on Lustrates and 90% of the time, it just adds up to overheal.
People are allowed to voice their opinions, developers need feedback in order to learn and grow. SE is no exception to that. If we just sat there and pretended everything was okay, then the healer community would probably be gone. Imagine if DPS had no feedback on NIN and SMN needing changes, then they would stay in the same state they were in. -
07-19-2020, 06:17 PMHanayumi
Anybody figure out a good system for healers and tanks without actually more skills than what we current have? Its one the things people tend to overlook, devs want to keep skill/spell amounts to a certain point so hotbars and crossbars arent flooded with them, so the solution of bringing back or adding more so and so skills isnt so cut and dry.
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07-19-2020, 06:33 PMQooErfiguring that kind of stuff is the devs job but ill humor youQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanayumi
first off a lot of "new" skills are just old deleted skills but introduced as something different. for instance rouse (buff your summon!) turned into seraph
largesse became temperance and neutral sect
bloodbath became nascent flash
etc
i agree that scholar always did have a lot of skills, perhaps even too many to comfortably map them on controller, but that was part of what made the job unique. if someone didnt like managing so many skills, ast and whm were always an option
that aside theres potential in skills that transform themselves. instead of using 2 hotbar spaces for fey blessing and consolation (fairy aoe heal), the former could become the latter when you use seraph since you cant use both at the same time anyways. whispering dawn and angels whisper already does this. having skills that become other skills under certain conditions could help you add things without bloating the hotbar
finally if you want to add new things to a job, rather than adding more skills that fill the same oversaturated niche itd just be better to add something else that gave extra value (did scholar or astro really need yet another ogcd aoe heal with a short cooldown after lv 70? no they didn't) smart use of traits goes a long way for this. ast and sch get incredible traits at lv 78 that change the way those jobs are played, and they were just simple changes to already existing skills -
07-19-2020, 08:26 PMAbelArchaniEA
Hey blunt. Where’s your data to confirm that “veteran players” are leaving at the same ratio as new players? Lmao dude save the drama. If you don’t like the game go play last of us 2. Seems like a fit for you
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07-20-2020, 12:19 AMItMeYour comment is kind of at odds with itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by elioaiko
It sounds like you just want a place where people can voice their opinions, so long as they're unhappy and are sharing ideas on how to change healers.
Unfortunately, that's not what this, or really any thread can be. -
07-20-2020, 05:08 PMJandorI'm playing to keep the party alive. There is a lot of overlap there with healing, but the venn diagram is not a perfect circle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo
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07-21-2020, 07:44 AMTorunya
I haven't read everything, so forgive me if I reiterate what others have already said.
I'm a returning player who hasn't played since Heavensward. My take on the jobs -- as I see them today, and what they have become -- is that some of them have indeed lost much of their identity. Homogenisation seems to have come at the cost of diversity, and, to this extent, I think it's a bit sad to see. While I understand that homogenising the jobs can make them more accessible as well as avoiding that certain jobs within roles be actively preferred over others, I think it's the wrong approach.
As someone who greatly enjoyed Sch and War back in the day, I feel that these two jobs have lost much of their niche now. At least, I personally don't derive as much joy from dps-ing as a Sch today now that all my DoTs are gone, and not having bloodbath on my War just makes me feel like I'm missing something important inside.
I suppose, we're all at the mercy of which direction the devs want to take this; however, seeing as some jobs are actually doing quite well in ShB, I don't think homogenising the jobs is the answer. -
07-21-2020, 11:45 AMKazukiyashuoPlz dont go into that route im perfectly know what im telling. Sch lost 2 dots. Bane was to spread dots making them aoe dps, shadowflare is removed even from summoner aka removed from the game and fey was some lame at. Speed increase. Thats still 2 dots to me. IN RETURN.... sch got art of war that didnt have and instead of lame 3% at. Speed or was is 2%? He got critical increase for the party, to compansate for that dots bane aoe dps he had. IF you add potencies of dots they result to art of war, which i wanna mention that is instant cast, compared to other healers. So your point is? Let me tell you. There is not point. Schs just cry without any particular reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
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07-21-2020, 11:54 AMKazukiyashuoYou got your answer above. Schs got nothing in return. Too dramatic. And obviously a lie. I dunno why its tiring when someone express their opinion, maybe cause its different ? Maybe you are upset that your whining doesnt affect all community ? Healer were always simple in their dps skills even when we had cleric stance that was harder to deal with. Crying to the forums that the dps is boring cause u are pressing 3 buttons instead of 5 is stupid in my opinion. If you want more complex dps skills pick a dps. Not once in a million SE will add more dps tools to healers. You cry all day here . PeaceQuote:
Originally Posted by elioaiko