Highly Notorious Monsters

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Originally Posted by Andros

Im 1000% for this. IF you dont like it. DONT FREAKING CAMP THEM. TOO BAD. We want rare monsters. Lots of them. Im for quick spawns. long spawns. lottery spawns. Place holder spawns. timed spawns. 24 hours spawns. rare spawns. Add it all.
VARIETY PLEASE. These are the things that made me LOVE final fantasy 11 in the early years. And its what i HOPE for and look forward to 2.0 the most. (+New maps)

It was very fun to earn a chance to fight something not everyone can at any time. Made it mean something.

You can still add BCNM style stuff. Trigger pop stuff for those people who dont like competition or cry about potential bot use.
World NM are exciting and fun.

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I agree.

While it baffles me me how the people who are so against it spend so much time coming into these threads and try to smash even the possibility of HNM's/FFXI-ish ideas from being implemented... They have the instances they love so much, what does it matter if we have some free roaming open NM's outside for everyone to see.

It is the best of both worlds, and regardless of whether anyone likes it or not HNM's would be a good addition to the game, and would surely produce some more subs.

I'm down with the idea of having 24 hour type HNMs being force spawn from items farmed from normal monsters. I remember this idea being passed around the player base of ffxi as a fix at the time. That, or 12 hour spawn with a 15-30 minute window. If you take out the 3 hour camp, which was really pretty ridiculous, and double the spawns per day to suit more time zones, I don't think there would be the same problem. You would keep the value of the claim with less frustration of losing it. Maybe even as low as a 6 or 8 hour respawn.

NMs need to hold some amount of value. Having them spawn like normal mobs really saps the fun out of them. It also removes inherent value from the items they drop. God forbid actually having to /try/ to get that item you want.

It's the difference between being handed something and having to work for it. Which, in the end, is more satisfying?

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Originally Posted by Abhayaa

I'm down with the idea of having 24 hour type HNMs being force spawn from items farmed from normal monsters. I remember this idea being passed around the player base of ffxi as a fix at the time. That, or 12 hour spawn with a 15-30 minute window. If you take out the 3 hour camp, which was really pretty ridiculous, and double the spawns per day to suit more time zones, I don't think there would be the same problem. You would keep the value of the claim with less frustration of losing it. Maybe even as low as a 6 or 8 hour respawn.

NMs need to hold some amount of value. Having them spawn like normal mobs really saps the fun out of them. It also removes inherent value from the items they drop. God forbid actually having to /try/ to get that item you want.

It's the difference between being handed something and having to work for it. Which, in the end, is more satisfying?

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But people want easy-mode, no competition syle FFXIV where they can go into the same instanced raid as many times in a day that they want, so that they can be 5/5 on all new gear sets in 1 day for their entire PT.

Open World NM's should have some great drops. Not only that the drops should not be equipped on every player walking around Ul'dah. These items should be rare, and inspire people to get them.

I think the general agreement is that respawn timers need to be shorter, much much shorter. I think every 8 hours, with maybe a 30 minute window would be ideal. Regardless, this would still instill that certain feeling of accomplishment when you finally see that item you have been after for weeks in the loot pool.

Do away with this 5/5 gear in 6 hours crap, bring back a challenge.

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Originally Posted by fusional

threads like these are always funny.

people who want a greater challenge never say the entire game needs to be really hard. they never say the entire game needs to cater to them and only them. they're only asking for *something* that their demographic can actually find challenging, rewarding and enjoyable. they never try to pry away the more casual content.

so why do the people who want casual content and/or don't want more challenging content insist on ruining things for those who do?

if you don't want it, don't participate in it. simple. but don't try to block it from being implemented into the game just because you personally don't want it.

it just makes you come across like petulant, spoiled little flailing children.

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The thing that gets me is there is absolutely no middle ground between the people that want it and dont want it. Its always got to be black and white, casual vs hardcore. The truth of the matter is, the system in FFXI worked because of the fact the average player base was like mid teens to lower 20s with absolutely no responsibilites other than showing up to school. Nowadays, 90% of the player base has a job or is in college or both, and can't wake up at 3 am to camp fafnir or whatever.

This doesn't make me casual, I was there in FFXI every single day when the spawn window was open granted it wasn't during the 6 hour period I was in high school. This whole casual vs hardcore bs needs to stop if the game wants to go anywhere and everyone needs to agree on a new system that can work for everyone, whether they want to participate or not. If the former is true, and they do want to participate in this it needs to be in a way that it is convenient enough that if they can only play 2-3 hours a day they will have the opportunity to do it during the time they log in, yet challenging enough they will only get the opportunity to do it 1-2 times a night max with rewards that are rewarding enough to make the content worthwhile for a long time coming.

To all the people saying they want the 24 hour nms back from ffxi. Was it really the nms that were hard? Or was it the fact you were sitting there for 3 hours at a time waiting for pop windows every half an hour and camping against 60 other people that made it felt worthwhile when you killed it. That isn't difficulty, thats called a time sink. And its the same exact damn thing all of you are complaining about with the new dungeons and their low as hell drop rates, and the same exact damn thing you were complaining about last patch with the keystones.

None of you want challenge, you just want to be able to shove it in other peoples faces when you claim an nm that only spawns once a day.

The people that don't want a 24 hour respawn or a claim war seem to be missing the point... once a day pops were fine, once a week pops were fine. You're not supposed to be able to kill something over and over again. The thing about hnms in FFXI was that you didn't just kill one nm a day you went for several. If there was one HNM in the game you wouldn't want a once a day spawn but if there were 30 of them it's a different story.

If you cut the spawn time in half you have to cut the drop rate in half, I'd rather kill something once a day with a higher drop rate then kill something over and over again.

And posts using the words time sink should be marked as spam... The difficulty on nms in XI varied, Fafnir/Nidhogg were pretty difficult at times, jormy/tiamat were even harder. Then there's the ToAU hnms, the point of the spawn times were not to make it difficult. It was to spread the game out, drops were kept rarer and everybody didn't camp the same thing everyday.

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Originally Posted by Req

None of you want challenge, you just want to be able to shove it in other peoples faces when you claim an nm that only spawns once a day.

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Please read before posting.

None of us want the 24 hour pops. We would all like to see those pop times reduced dramatically. I would love 6 hour pops, with a 15 minute window. Also, make the pop spot be an entire zone, not limit it to one specific spot to encourage botting (ie Fafnir/Nid)

We don't want a timesink, we want open world NM's that pose a challenge. We are talking about the kind of NM's that will take several wipes before finding a good strategy. NM's that dont have a gauranteed drop rate. Of course some people are going to be a little jealous when they see people sporting some sexy gear, that is how it will be no matter what. That happens with Instanced gear...

But that certain aspect is not what we are after. We just want the chase, the excitement, the thrill of the claim, and the giddy anticipation as the mob dies and the loot pool finally comes up. To see it dropped nothing. Tomorrow maybe!

I am in your boat though, i work a 50 hour work week, I can't camp like I used to. Which is why I want to dilute the timesink method of FFXIV and make it palpable in this game to cater to everyone. Not just the hardcore/casual gamers.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

But people want easy-mode, no competition syle FFXIV where they can go into the same instanced raid as many times in a day that they want, so that they can be 5/5 on all new gear sets in 1 day for their entire PT.

Open World NM's should have some great drops. Not only that the drops should not be equipped on every player walking around Ul'dah. These items should be rare, and inspire people to get them.

I think the general agreement is that respawn timers need to be shorter, much much shorter. I think every 8 hours, with maybe a 30 minute window would be ideal. Regardless, this would still instill that certain feeling of accomplishment when you finally see that item you have been after for weeks in the loot pool.

Do away with this 5/5 gear in 6 hours crap, bring back a challenge.

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Show me anyone who had a full Darklight set 24 hours after release. I doubt anyone even has a full set now. Let alone a full party in six hours.

This is the problem with this entire discussion. This condescending attitude that instances are inherently easy. Yet the only "challenge" in relation to open world HNMs is the claim wars that 79.3% of players that SE polled do not want.

And what challenge would the fight be when the claim system allows for people outside the claiming party to fight? Should SE forsake their game's design just to further accommodate a minority?

Here's an idea for compromise that I've suggested before: design HNMs that require tens if not hundreds of players to kill. That way it unites the community rather than seperates them. Make them unclaimable and have chances at loot be performance-based like Campaign in XI. That way the open world has terrible beasties randomly popping in it but no one gets locked out of content.

Because in the end, that's all people against HNMs are really concerned with. They can have the best items have abysmal drop rates to preserve the "rarity" and keep the longer respawns to boot.

Sephrick, as much as we all enjoy reading the same responses from you over and over again in every thread, understand this:

We all like your suggestion of 100 man boss battles, its cool. But the rest of us want plain old, open world HNM's as well. Just because you don't like them, and want to post useless statistics about who all DOESNT want them, is not going to change our pursuit of the implementation of said NM's.

There is a sense of adventure, action, upset, etc when it comes to open world NM hunting. Instances, and 100 man fights that yield no drops will not bring that.

I understand that you think that the population doesn't want HNM's, but I assure you, we do.

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Originally Posted by Req

The thing that gets me is there is absolutely no middle ground between the people that want it and dont want it. Its always got to be black and white, casual vs hardcore. The truth of the matter is, the system in FFXI worked because of the fact the average player base was like mid teens to lower 20s with absolutely no responsibilites other than showing up to school. Nowadays, 90% of the player base has a job or is in college or both, and can't wake up at 3 am to camp fafnir or whatever.

This doesn't make me casual, I was there in FFXI every single day when the spawn window was open granted it wasn't during the 6 hour period I was in high school. This whole casual vs hardcore bs needs to stop if the game wants to go anywhere and everyone needs to agree on a new system that can work for everyone, whether they want to participate or not. If the former is true, and they do want to participate in this it needs to be in a way that it is convenient enough that if they can only play 2-3 hours a day they will have the opportunity to do it during the time they log in, yet challenging enough they will only get the opportunity to do it 1-2 times a night max with rewards that are rewarding enough to make the content worthwhile for a long time coming.

To all the people saying they want the 24 hour nms back from ffxi. Was it really the nms that were hard? Or was it the fact you were sitting there for 3 hours at a time waiting for pop windows every half an hour and camping against 60 other people that made it felt worthwhile when you killed it. That isn't difficulty, thats called a time sink. And its the same exact damn thing all of you are complaining about with the new dungeons and their low as hell drop rates, and the same exact damn thing you were complaining about last patch with the keystones.

None of you want challenge, you just want to be able to shove it in other peoples faces when you claim an nm that only spawns once a day.

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Well said. I would much rather spend hours theorycrafting trying to maximize the raid's performance to down a boss. Not waking up at 3am, and come back to my computer every 29min just to see if it spawns at the next 30min mark for the next 3 hrs. I think there's a fine line between challenging and time sink. FFXI HNMs when they were on long timer is a time sink. The completely randomness of Ifrit weapon (before totem) and broken distribution system is a time sink, just because you have more time doesn't make you good. Being able to raid efficiently should be the indicator of how good you and your group are.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Sephrick, as much as well all enjoy reading the same responses from you over and over again in every thread, understand this:

We all like your suggestion of 100 man boss battles, its cool. But the rest of us want plain old, open world HNM's as well. Just because you don't like them, and want to post useless statistics about who all DOESNT want them, is not going to change our pursuit of the implementation of said NM's.

There is a sense of adventure, action, upset, etc when it comes to open world NM hunting. Instances, and 100 man fights that yield no drops will not bring that.

I understand that you think that the population doesn't want HNM's, but I assure you, we do.

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As if your posts aren't the definition of redundancy?

You can call SE's own poll data "useless" all you want but it was those first two polls that helped shape the direction of 2.0's design.

I'm tossing out ideas that can make everyone happy but it's not enough because they circumvent the core motivating factor of those pushing for XI-style HNMs. You only want a pedestal to stand on.

Again, it's a matter of quid pro quo.

To accommodate HNMs as they were in XI's days of old, the majority of players who have stated they don't want open world claim wars have to give up their right to experience content on their own schedule.

To have a game where sought-after loot comes from instances, a minority of player give up the perceived "rush" of claim wars but still get to play content.

Clearly, the majority is paying the heavier price. Which is why the game is going to be mainly instanced.

Even XI couldn't sustain being "old XI" anymore. Why would SE remake content they phased out of the original game?

If you really want to have a successful campaign to have premier content be HNMs, why not take it to XI? And that's not a "Derp, go play XI" statement. It just seems like it might be a more successful concept there than here.

But it all comes back to the fact that if old XI endgame was such a wonderful design, we'd all still be playing it and XI wouldn't have tossed it out.

But in the end, you won't get anywhere without significantly more support. And you won't get that unless you start discussing compromise. Which you've made quite clear you have no interest in doing so.

Each of these threads go exactly the same. Two sides plug their ears and argue for 10+ pages. I state my own personal opinions then try to suggest compromise and am then singled out as some sort of hypocritical hate monger who just wants free items for entering an instance.

Clearly the HNM topic won't be considered a "win" for you unless the result of implementation is an epeen pedestal to stand on.

Allow me to dig in and mirror your personality.

HNMs suck. Camping them is boring. The battles are easy mode. The only challenge is out claiming the RMT bot. Give me the complex and challenging instances 2.0's engine and servers are being designed for over XI content that XI got rid of any day.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Please read before posting.

None of us want the 24 hour pops. We would all like to see those pop times reduced dramatically. I would love 6 hour pops, with a 15 minute window. Also, make the pop spot be an entire zone, not limit it to one specific spot to encourage botting (ie Fafnir/Nid)

We don't want a timesink, we want open world NM's that pose a challenge. We are talking about the kind of NM's that will take several wipes before finding a good strategy. NM's that dont have a gauranteed drop rate. Of course some people are going to be a little jealous when they see people sporting some sexy gear, that is how it will be no matter what. That happens with Instanced gear...

But that certain aspect is not what we are after. We just want the chase, the excitement, the thrill of the claim, and the giddy anticipation as the mob dies and the loot pool finally comes up. To see it dropped nothing. Tomorrow maybe!

I am in your boat though, i work a 50 hour work week, I can't camp like I used to. Which is why I want to dilute the timesink method of FFXIV and make it palpable in this game to cater to everyone. Not just the hardcore/casual gamers.

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I don't know where you are getting that I am not reading or that no one is calling for the 24 hour nms spawns, considering you quoted someone just a few posts ago saying to add "quick spawns. long spawns. lottery spawns. Place holder spawns. timed spawns. 24 hours spawns. rare spawns." to which they also said, "if you don't like it then don't do it." And people like that is what i was generally responding to in my post. There is no middle ground, everyone seems to want free roaming nms, and the general concensus is "instances are bad because they are too repeatable." What about timed instances that are challenging. Ones that you can be repeated only every so often but with great rewards? Remember einherjahr? Even skilled linkshells had trouble getting through there, and it didnt take the ability to sit there and wait, you could log in and you were done with it in half an hour at your linkshells convenience and you either moved on to the next tier or didnt. Like lots of people have also suggested, what about poppable nms that are hard to get the pops for like kirin that you could do at your own conveniance but was still a pain in the ass to get to because you had to kill 12 other nms before you even got there. This is the middle ground.

As far as roaming nms, the best middle ground I could think of would be roaming NMS that are so damn powerful it takes 100 people to take down on like a 2 week spawn. Something that is such a massive undertaking you would need to gather a large portion of the server during a set time to take it down, something that would take time and planning would need to be at a time convenient for a large majority of the player base to undertake, and not just based on which ls could be there on time and who could claim it first. How the rewards would work, I have absolutely no idea, maybe something involving the free company system where your free company gets a tokens or some sort of currency based on how involved it was in the fight which could then be exchanged to fight a poppable nm that drops gear, or could just be traded in for gear itself. Whether this is going to be possible in 2.0 or not I have no idea.

I am sure there are other ways that there could be balance between this, but everyone needs to realize for this to be a successful game the player base needs to have challenging content with rare items, that isnt based on whether or not they can log in at a certain time dictated by an algorithm SE made, and more about the time they can log in at their convenience and take part in the challenging content.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

But when you quote Yoshida with the comment of "the people have spoken"... Look at the game... It has failed miserably, and despite the recent hightened amount of players, is still failing. It needs more content catering to both crowd.

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The game is getting better with every patch, there is only so fast the dev team can work to polish that giant turd Tanaka left behind.

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Originally Posted by ESAR

Also some Roaming HNM.
Have them pop every five minutes like any regular NM, but put a recast timer of like 15min on any member that participated in the kill (like the raids), that way you don't have people hogging the NM.

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This is a great idea, although 60 mins would be better that would give everyone a chance every hour.

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Originally Posted by ESAR

Though I don't see how any Roaming NM will be that challenging if you can have 40+ people attacking it.
IDK I'm sure they'll figure out a good way to please everyone.

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You still can't target or help kill other players leve mobs so there is definitely a way they could solve this issue.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

But people want easy-mode, no competition syle FFXIV where they can go into the same instanced raid as many times in a day that they want, so that they can be 5/5 on all new gear sets in 1 day for their entire PT.

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Yea because we have seen all those players with full darklight running about haven't we. /sigh

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

We all like your suggestion of 100 man boss battles, its cool. But the rest of us want plain old, open world HNM's as well. Just because you don't like them, and want to post useless statistics about who all DOESNT want them, is not going to change our pursuit of the implementation of said NM's.

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Ahh so its like fighting a loosing battle ? *the people have spoken*

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Show me anyone who had a full Darklight set 24 hours after release. I doubt anyone even has a full set now. Let alone a full party in six hours.

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While correct that no one had it in a day, let alone six hours, there are pics of at least one full set already, on these very forums, in another thread.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

The game is getting better with every patch, there is only so fast the dev team can work to polish that giant turd Tanaka left behind.

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This game failed because of SE's CEO not because of Tanaka. That's why even 2.0 is in danger because Wada is still forcing this boneheaded template to be designed around that caused the old game to fail.



This is a perfect example of why they just need 2 games, one for both audiences. Imo NMs were fine in XI, casual people seem to want this game to be spoon fed to them. Neither side should have to compromise, if there were two games we'd both get what we want.

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of the 24 hour spawn, it wasn't to make it hard it was to make it so you only did it once a day and moved on to other content. With a 6 hour repop like somebody suggested you'd be going back to fafnir several times a day. The only thing that would make sense is not liking would be the 3 hour spawn window, although the window rarely ended up being that long...

A good compromise to me would be instead of a 21-24 repop maybe an 18-20 hour repop and reducing the window to 2 hours max instead of 3, but the casual gamers want to make it ridiculous like the 6 hour respawn thing or having so multiple groups fight it in an instance.



In regard to the poll I think the numbers are flawed, idk when that was taken but I bet that most of the die hard XI fans had quit by the time that poll was out so of course the numbers are going to favor the crowd that wants everything to be easy.

It's also one of those issues where people are going to think they don't want it but it makes the game better. It was like the whole death penalty debate. When asked nobody in their right mind would want to lose exp on death, but when you break it down it's not wanting to lose levels on XI that made you fear dying in the first place. XIV has no death penalty but there's no fear of dying, XI's death penalty would have made fighting more exciting.

You will never be able to trust a poll on something that involves a penalty, Yoshi P and his team should have enough common sense to know better.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Roaming Dragons.
Giant Beasts.
High Respawn Timers.
Amazing Gear.

I know everyone crys foul over copy+paste ideas from Final Fantasy XI. But lets be honest, they were the reason alot of people played. The rush of getting claim over your enemy linkshells. Watching an awesome wipe. Seeing that ever-elusive item in the loot pool. So many amazing memories of great times.

This topic is about the possible implementation of non-instanced, highly notorious monsters to roam the open plains of Final Fantasy XIV.

I would like ideas, opinions, etc; on how we can implement something of this nature that caters to all crowds. Lets hear it.

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Good OP. Definetly something that XIV is SORELY missing. For anyone playing more than a few months, and especially those of us who have been here since launch or before, open-world excitement just doesn't exist.. period. Adding some quality HNM (non-instanced) with shortened timers (by comparison to XI) would add a great deal of "something to do" whether you wanted to clear it all, or just watch others go at it. This game already has claim wars (see job quests during patch weekend..) but it's not an issue due to the reallly short repop. XI was such a big deal (to some..) because after waiting all night long for 10+ hrs waiting for HNM to pop, the LS that jus showed up 30m ago gets the lucky claim.. and you essentially just blew your whole day... for just ONE *chance* at getting your loot. HNM in XIV shouldn't have quite as short a repop as NM, but 1-4 hours timers would work.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

HNMs suck. Camping them is boring. The battles are easy mode. The only challenge is out claiming the RMT bot. Give me the complex and challenging instances 2.0's engine and servers are being designed for over XI content that XI got rid of any day.

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So according to you, we should listen to your opinion and that of a specified group of people. and completely ignore the wants of another group? For the sakes of the masses lets all hope you never go into game design.

And yes, lets make a game purely based off instances, and even further lets assume due to 2.0 they will be good?

Despite all of our ascertations to keep this thread about ways to positively implement HNM's in a manner that will cater to the vast majority, you have to come into threads and force your opinions on everyone else. You have some good ideas, and you have some simply terrible ideas. I am in the same boat, I don't expect what I want, to be what everyone else wants. I want this thread to be the melting pot of a collaboration of ideas.

So if you can't keep constructively participate in what we would like to accomplish in this thread, feel free to go bother other people. I gaurantee you, there are atleast 10 people out there who care about what you have to say.

/e and even further more, in the quote above i noticed you failed to comprehend what we have been saying:

We hated camping too, we want shorter time frames, pops, etc.

HNM's most definitely did not suck, they were a staple of FFXI (Even through you hate it)

We want to spread the spawn range, and make it much larger to stave off botters.

and lastly, you talk of challenging instances... they havent even come out yet, you have absolutely no way of knowing if they will truly be challenging.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

This game failed because of SE's CEO not because of Tanaka. That's why even 2.0 is in danger because Wada is still forcing this boneheaded template to be designed around that caused the old game to fail.

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That's not true, the server, the graphics engine, the UI, the animation lock all of these issue are down to Tanaka and Yoshida is making sure to correct those problems.

Tanaka doesn't know how to make mainstream games which appeal to a wide audience, he even confessed in a interview that he didn't have time to play other games, at least Yoshida has vast experience of other MMO's in the market because he has played them himself.

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This is a perfect example of why they just need 2 games, one for both audiences. Imo NMs were fine in XI

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They already do have 2 games.

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People seem to misunderstand the purpose of the 24 hour spawn, it wasn't to make it hard it was to make it so you only did it once a day and moved on to other content

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Ok then lets change Esar's idea a little:- NM's with 5mins spawn times and can only be killed/claimed once a day.

Or Nm's that can be spawned any time as long as you have the required item to pop them.

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In regard to the poll I think the numbers are flawed, idk when that was taken but I bet that most of the die hard XI fans had quit by the time that poll was out so of course the numbers are going to favor the crowd that wants everything to be easy.

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Well that's their problem, they had the oppertunity to give their feedback except the didn't because they left.

I think you underestimate the size of the casual crowd, go look at how many people bought FFXIII (-2), thats the kind of userbase SE are aiming for and they won't be getting those kinds of numbers with a convoluted experience like FF11.

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So according to you, we should listen to your opinion and that of a specified group of people. and completely ignore the wants of another group? For the sakes of the masses lets all hope you never go into game design.

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Yup this how it works, hardcore fans are in the minority, especially when you acknowledge the fact SE are aiming for casual gamers and have been from the day the game was first revealed.

SE want a WoW not a FF11.

I think the new claiming system took everyone by surprise in 1.19

The original Problem
While killing a MOB... if other MOBs aggroed... and they died before the first MOB did, you would get ZERO credit for the kill... No loot... No XP.
This was especially stupid (that's not even exaggeration... It was pretty stupid) in leves.. which were open world instanced, the MOBs were yours and yours alone... and yet you could only "Attack the 1 red MOB!!!!!!"

What the community asked for? (I hate to use words like "we" when speaking only for myself... I know it's pretentious... but if it makes you feel better, the "we" can just refer to me and my LS)
The ability to claim multiple MOBs or at the very least.. get credit (XP and Loot) for killing MOBs that weren't claimed

What we got?
We actually got what we asked for but they also slid in the ability to attack MOBs claimed by others, even though I never saw anyone ask for this.

The problems it caused
1. Power-leveling was now possible because some high level character outside the party could slaughter everything for you.
2. Anything open world can now be super-zerged by as many people as you can muster. that was pretty much Yoshi saying he had no regard or serious plans for any open world NMs. You can zerg a stronghold with 40 people and clear it easily in minutes... but whats the ultimate reward? a "chance" at a cuirass that isn't worth using? Mask of the Mortal Hex?

Being Able to attack MOBs already claimed is one of the biggest things hurting this game. It works against the abolishment (I guess firefox doesn't think "Abolishment" is a word) of PLing and also against the idea of new open world NMs

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Originally Posted by Jinko

That's not true, the server, the graphics engine, the UI, the animation lock all of these issue are down to Tanaka and Yoshida is making sure to correct those problems.

Tanaka doesn't know how to make mainstream games which appeal to a wide audience, he even confessed in a interview that he didn't have time to play other games, at least Yoshida has vast experience of other MMO's in the market because he has played them himself.



They already do have 2 games.



Ok then lets change Esar's idea a little:- NM's with 5mins spawn times and can only be killed/claimed once a day.

Or Nm's that can be spawned any time as long as you have the required item to pop them.

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The UI and etc okay that might be partly his fault, but I would put that more on deadlines given and the people actually programming it. And so what if he doesn't know how to make a mainstream game? This copy and paste of other MMOs has got to stop, there are dozens of mainstream games out there and they're all the same damn thing. At least Tanaka's original.

And mainstream how exactly? The fact it's an anime game severely limits what they'll sell in other regions, even if it was the most fun MMO on the market with the most content they've shot themselves in the foot as far as other regions go. The best they'll get is what Japan can give them, they won't touch WoW's group.


And when I said 2 games I meant two newer games for a casual and hardcore gamers. XI does not count anymore, they nerfed the crap out of it and now just have 2 games for casual players. Even if they un-nerfed it and made it all hard again it still undid everybody's accomplishments.


5 min spawns are stupid, do you really want the entire server being able to kill stuff once a day? If that happened in XI everybody would have had speed belts, D rings in a matter of weeks. How stupid is that? And XI did have force popped nms too, but it's retarded to make the whole game that way. Claim wars and long spawn times are good things

And I think you over estimate the casual crowd. Like I said already dozens of casual games on the market so even if there are 20mil casual gamers you have to share them with every other game. If there were so many casual gamers then the fatigue system would not have been such a terrible thing, why? because the casual gamers would have never been fatigued. Punishing hard core gamers devastated their user base.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

This game failed because of SE's CEO not because of Tanaka. That's why even 2.0 is in danger because Wada is still forcing this boneheaded template to be designed around that caused the old game to fail.



This is a perfect example of why they just need 2 games, one for both audiences. Imo NMs were fine in XI, casual people seem to want this game to be spoon fed to them. Neither side should have to compromise, if there were two games we'd both get what we want.

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Instances aren't "spoon feeding." People need to get over this notion that instances are meant to be easy.

Yoshida said himself that the upside to instances in 2.0 is that they'll be able to have their level designers create an entire environment that is a challenge, not just a claim war followed by a a joke of a fight.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of the 24 hour spawn, it wasn't to make it hard it was to make it so you only did it once a day and moved on to other content. With a 6 hour repop like somebody suggested you'd be going back to fafnir several times a day. The only thing that would make sense is not liking would be the 3 hour spawn window, although the window rarely ended up being that long...

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If SE feels they need to slow people down, they can put longer cool downs on the instances. That way everyone gets a chance once a day and when they can coordinate schedules with their friends.

The timers aren't exclusive to HNMs. Sure people will complain, but they'll get over it when there's enough content to not notice.

Again, if SE feels they need to.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

A good compromise to me would be instead of a 21-24 repop maybe an 18-20 hour repop and reducing the window to 2 hours max instead of 3, but the casual gamers want to make it ridiculous like the 6 hour respawn thing or having so multiple groups fight it in an instance.

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That's not a compromise at all. The issue is being blocked out of content. I pay a monthly fee to play the game, not to watch someone else play it.

Plenty of compromise suggestions have been made but all the anti-instance crowd wants are claim wars. That's the core issue.

People don't want things easy or instantly gratifying. They just want to play challenging content on their own schedule. That's it. But to accommodate the HNM mechanic, a majority of the player base has to give up that "play when I have the time" aspect.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

In regard to the poll I think the numbers are flawed, idk when that was taken but I bet that most of the die hard XI fans had quit by the time that poll was out so of course the numbers are going to favor the crowd that wants everything to be easy.

It's also one of those issues where people are going to think they don't want it but it makes the game better. It was like the whole death penalty debate. When asked nobody in their right mind would want to lose exp on death, but when you break it down it's not wanting to lose levels on XI that made you fear dying in the first place. XIV has no death penalty but there's no fear of dying, XI's death penalty would have made fighting more exciting.

You will never be able to trust a poll on something that involves a penalty, Yoshi P and his team should have enough common sense to know better.

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The poll was taken March 2011, back before the restriction of having to have logged in within 30 days in order to log on to the forums. Anyone who purchased the game had the right to vote. So if anything, the numbers from those first two polls are exactly what SE needs to focus on. They're representative of what everyone who initially bought the game wanted out of the blank slate that was released.

As for fear of death, losing the instance is the motivator to stay alive. A few deaths may not cost the entire run, but one wipe could be the difference in a speed run. Why does there need to be salt in the wounds? Losing is penalty enough.

And besides, what fear of dying was there when "sacrifice pulls" we're a common tactic?

Exp loss was a minor annoyance on top of what was and still is the main motivating factor, wanting to win.

And what is this business about a penalty anyway? We should view not getting claim on an HNM as a penalty? For what, having a real life to attend to?

There's no reason XIV can't have epic open world battles, but they need to evolve. Once again, even XI can't afford to be "old XI" any more. Why would SE shoe horn archaic content into a new MMO when it doesn't even fit in the old one?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

The problem with super long timers is that it doesn't really foster a positive server community.

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I wouldnt say that considering, ffxi felt a lot nicer welcoming than this community ever has.

I definatelly want HNM, just not open world roaming ones. That will lead to whoever has the first bot to claim it and waste 3 hrs for others. That is not competition, that is cheating and SE won't be able to control it.

Give us huge flying beasts, be them dragons or other kinds, give us huge things to fight, but make it instanced. Make it so parties can alliance kill them, just please do not make them open world.

That will ruin it for a lot of people.

OP, i know it may have seemed like a great idea at the time in FFXI, but that is because that was all we had. Once they made them instanced, people still played and enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

5 min spawns are stupid, do you really want the entire server being able to kill stuff once a day? If that happened in XI everybody would have had speed belts, D rings in a matter of weeks. How stupid is that? And XI did have force popped nms too, but it's retarded to make the whole game that way. Claim wars and long spawn times are good things

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Because I was under the assumption that the OP didn't want world bosses to drop awesome loot. (or should I say it wasn't required)

I thought it was more about the thrill and the chase and the uhhhh standing in one spot for hours on end, than what the actual monster dropped.

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And I think you over estimate the casual crowd. Like I said already dozens of casual games on the market so even if there are 20mil casual gamers you have to share them with every other game.

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Ok maybe I should have said the average Final Fantasy player then..

Again I vote for giving HNMs TERRIBLE DROPS! Kill them for pride, Kill them for a title, Kill them for something to do, but giving them awesome drops breeds hate and flame wars and GM's called on everyone and drama llamas will run rampant, use their black materia, and then meteor will land and the world will crack and the devil will come out and MPK everyone then HE'LL get GM'd! and so on....

It can be a big rush to camp&claim, but doin it just for stuff is dumb. I like the great buffalo fight, its fun! Does he drop great stuff?.... I wonder why he's never camped..... inb4 "he's easy" ya, he kinda is, let's see who can do him with the fewest members! stuff like that i'm in favor of.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Being Able to attack MOBs already claimed is one of the biggest things hurting this game. It works against the abolishment (I guess firefox doesn't think "Abolishment" is a word) of PLing and also against the idea of new open world NMs

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Accept it's not a problem, because it's by design. Yoshida said he wants people to be able to PL from outside the party. And no one wants claim wars so all is well.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Again I vote for giving HNMs TERRIBLE DROPS! Kill them for pride, Kill them for a title, Kill them for something to do, but giving them awesome drops breeds hate and flame wars and GM's called on everyone and drama llamas will run rampant, use their black materia, and then meteor will land and the world will crack and the devil will come out and MPK everyone then HE'LL get GM'd! and so on....

It can be a big rush to camp&claim, but doin it just for stuff is dumb. I like the great buffalo fight, its fun! Does he drop great stuff?.... I wonder why he's never camped..... inb4 "he's easy" ya, he kinda is, let's see who can do him with the fewest members! stuff like that i'm in favor of.

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I am the same. I really cannot state enough how much I would like a trophy for moghouse or a little trinket to wear or something. Maybe a useless hat made out of an NM skull or something. ^^

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Accept it's not a problem, because it's by design. Yoshida said he wants people to be able to PL from outside the party. And no one wants claim wars so all is well.

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Well it is a problem, just Yoshida doesn't think it is. :P

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Originally Posted by Yves

I am the same. I really cannot state enough how much I would like a trophy for moghouse or a little trinket to wear or something. Maybe a useless hat made out of an NM skull or something. ^^

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Now your talking !

I don't have a problem with most of the content being instanced. If that's what the majority of people want, then maybe that should be the majority of content. However, 20% is also a number worth paying attention to. There is /no reason/ why we can't have mostly instanced content while still creating the interesting and dynamic open world that 20% or more of players want. Players can participate in what they want. Rewards can be roughly equal between players wanting to participate in only instanced content versus those who want to participate in both. Powerful items from an HNM scene can have their rough equivalent dropped in instanced raids.

But there's little denying that the current open world is pretty bland. I'm looking forward to the zone redesigns, but NMs that are not always sitting up (and NMs that drop crafting materials as well as the exclusive items) would help greatly to spice it up. Instance raids are good and fun, but when you only have things happening in instances the rest of the world becomes stagnant and dull. Having NMs that rotate spawn times or placeholders help make sure there's always something going on. It creates a more realistic, dynamic world which has a direct effect on the entire psychology of the game.

Taru in great buffalo skull helm! TOO HEAVY TO WALK IN THIS THANG!

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Originally Posted by Yves

I am the same. I really cannot state enough how much I would like a trophy for moghouse or a little trinket to wear or something. Maybe a useless hat made out of an NM skull or something. ^^

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I could fully support HNMs in all their former glory if their drops were trophy items that were just something to show off as town gear or in a publicly-accessible portion of Free Company housing like a trophy room.

Sounds like a great way to make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by Abhayaa

I don't have a problem with most of the content being instanced. If that's what the majority of people want, then maybe that should be the majority of content. However, 20% is also a number worth paying attention to. There is /no reason/ why we can't have mostly instanced content while still creating the interesting and dynamic open world that 20% or more of players want. Players can participate in what they want. Rewards can be roughly equal between players wanting to participate in only instanced content versus those who want to participate in both. Powerful items from an HNM scene can have their rough equivalent dropped in instanced raids.

But there's little denying that the current open world is pretty bland. I'm looking forward to the zone redesigns, but NMs that are not always sitting up (and NMs that drop crafting materials as well as the exclusive items) would help greatly to spice it up. Instance raids are good and fun, but when you only have things happening in instances the rest of the world becomes stagnant and dull. Having NMs that rotate spawn times or placeholders help make sure there's always something going on. It creates a more realistic, dynamic world which has a direct effect on the entire psychology of the game.

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We keep saying to just make rewards equal but there's a handful of posters that want their toys to be shinier.

If only everyone was as mature as you.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Again I vote for giving HNMs TERRIBLE DROPS! Kill them for pride, Kill them for a title, Kill them for something to do, but giving them awesome drops breeds hate and flame wars and GM's called on everyone and drama llamas will run rampant, use their black materia, and then meteor will land and the world will crack and the devil will come out and MPK everyone then HE'LL get GM'd! and so on....

It can be a big rush to camp&claim, but doin it just for stuff is dumb. I like the great buffalo fight, its fun! Does he drop great stuff?.... I wonder why he's never camped..... inb4 "he's easy" ya, he kinda is, let's see who can do him with the fewest members! stuff like that i'm in favor of.

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Not much point in killing them if they don't drop something good lol. We could go fight level 90 gobs if we wanted to, wouldn't be any point.

What's wrong with wars with other shells? I personally enjoyed them. Never forget one fafnir the other shells were doing other events so after we killed it our entire shell went and changed our titles to nidhogg slayers. Because of that when other groups saw us later they thought nid popped and only sent people to get faf's tod the next day then poof nid popped.

Without claim wars there's no chance to pull off something epic like that.

@sephrick
the 18-20 hour respawn is a compromise, making it instanced is cutting out what the other side wants entirely. That's what's not a compromise. Just because there were 3 hour windows doesnt mean people were there for 3 hours. If you cut the windows down to 2 hours then it will most likely pop by the 1 hour mark.

@abhayaa
I think it's way more than 20% though, it's like I said why would people who had quit vote on it? and it's still something that's seen as a negative but makes the game better so even if the other 80% thinks they don't want it I'm sure half of those would enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Taru in great buffalo skull helm! TOO HEAVY TO WALK IN THIS THANG!

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You could put wheels on that and drive round in it.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

@abhayaa
I think it's way more than 20% though, it's like I said why would people who had quit vote on it? and it's still something that's seen as a negative but makes the game better so even if the other 80% thinks they don't want it I'm sure half of those would enjoy it.

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Well yea you can think what you like, but the numbers we have are probably more accurate than your bias opinion.

I quit during the period of the second poll and I have voted on all 3 polls because I am interested in how the game turns out, I assume those players you refer to are doing the same, if they aren't then maybe they have no intention of ever coming back.... which means their opinion does not matter.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

I could fully support HNMs in all their former glory if their drops were trophy items that were just something to show off as town gear or in a publicly-accessible portion of Free Company housing like a trophy room.

Sounds like a great way to make everyone happy.

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If you eliminate the super gear and you make it like a trophy style, which cannot be "sold" chances are you aliminate botting.

It's a great idea and I fully support it. This would give everyone bragging rights too.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

Not much point in killing them if they don't drop something good lol.

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This is why I don't believe most people who say they like camping. They don't. They just wanna show off gear from these mobs. Removal of gear doesn't prevent you from camping these things for enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

You could put wheels on that and drive round in it.



Well yea you can think what you like, but the numbers we have are probably more accurate than your bias opinion.

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I think I make a valid point lol. Call it biased if you want, at least I can give reasons as to why I think it's wrong and not just say "You're biased!"


If something looks negative people will shoot it down. It's like this whole issue with government spending, spending's actually a good thing because it stimulates the economy, everytime the budget's been balanced it's caused a recession.

There was an earmark a few decades back spending millions to research a flea out west, sounds stupid right? Well this flea was killing off cattle, if the cattle industry had gone under it would have devastated the economy. But recently there was a big fight to end earmarks, people just look at them and think they're wasteful spending because they don't understand the good that they did. (who knows what industries will suffer because of it)

I think that's why you can't poll players about things such as claim wars or a death penalty that look negative, just looking at it people will think it's bad and shoot it down. People are voting against it that don't understand the benefits of it.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

"You're biast!"

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And you're a Drake!!!!!

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

I think I make a valid point lol. Call it biased if you want, at least I can give reasons as to why I think it's wrong and not just say "You're biased!"


If something looks negative people will shoot it down. It's like this whole issue with government spending, spending's actually a good thing because it stimulates the economy, everytime the budget's been balanced it's caused a recession.

There was an earmark a few decades back spending millions to research a flea out west, sounds stupid right? Well this flea was killing off cattle, if the cattle industry had gone under it would have devastated the economy. But recently there was a big fight to end earmarks, people just look at them and think they're wasteful spending because they don't understand the good that they did. (who knows what industries will suffer because of it)

I think that's why you can't poll players about things such as claim wars or a death penalty that look negative, just looking at it people will think it's bad and shoot it down. People are voting against it that don't understand the benefits of it.

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There are no benefits to claim wars and exp loss that can't be replicated by other means.

And comparing endgame on an MMO to the complexities of a nation's deficit is hardly a sound basis. Families don't starve if there's no claim wars in XIV.

If people are experiencing content too fast, SE can put longer cool downs on the instances. If people are just diving on the swords and not fearing death then SE can make it so a wipe boots you from the instance with the full cool down in effect.

But in the end, SE knows what their game needs more than you do.

After reading this thread I really wanted to add my 2 cents as a noob to the FFXIV world. I apologize for heavy references to FFXI but there were many good things about that game I would like to see again. I played FFXI for several years but I never liked the HNM scene, simply wasn't my cup of tea but plenty of other players did. After 7 years I couldn't figure out why competitive claim players didn't just take out their epeen rulers in brenner or balista instead but it's besides the point. It never effected my enjoyment in that game so I do not yet understand why it would in this one if SE decided to add it. On the other hand though I would be really excited to see a Besiged type of event again with hundreds of players all up against overwhelming odds like it was when the 1st level 8 came out with drops added to that as well comparable in quality to HNM type drops so that it keeps the playing field more equal between those of us who don't like to camp NMs vs those who do.