Reasonable buff to war

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

Make storm eye duration to 40 seconds this means one more storm eye. Change vengeance to 60 potency. Change Inner chaos to 930 or 940. Make onslaught 200 or lower the cooldown and the gauge cost. Just pick one or all leave a comment

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Funny how every one thinks “their” job needs a buff. Truth is that they usually just need to be more proficient at their job. GG

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Funny how every one thinks “their” job needs a buff. Truth is that they usually just need to be more proficient at their job. GG

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Funny how u make generic comments that don't address specific concerns/arguments people made.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

I'm not a fan of inner chaos either. It effectively lengethens the crit/spam opening as you mentioned and in addition to making some raid buffs not benefit wars, it has other issues too.
= (

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Possibly dumb question and Im not entirely sure if any testing additionally has been done for it, didnt SE fix that issue back when NIN had the garaunteed(kassatsu?) crit ninjutsu. I remember them saying that even though the crit is garaunteed it can still crit on top of that. I remember it being true at the time but that also might have been back in 2.x so its possible that they have changed it. If it remains true and is also true for direct hit then WAR still gets all the benefits from buffs provided they recieve them

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Originally Posted by ZaqueXIII

Possibly dumb question and Im not entirely sure if any testing additionally has been done for it, didnt SE fix that issue back when NIN had the garaunteed(kassatsu?) crit ninjutsu. I remember them saying that even though the crit is garaunteed it can still crit on top of that. I remember it being true at the time but that also might have been back in 2.x so its possible that they have changed it. If it remains true and is also true for direct hit then WAR still gets all the benefits from buffs provided they recieve them

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Some of the old auto-crit actions where updated to critical-direct hit. Perhaps they were referring to something along the lines of "it's an auto-crit that can possibly direct hit". But I'm not sure either way.

Warrior doesn't get much benefit for 2 reasons: We don't meld DH so, at least in my runs so far, I have a 0% DH rate outside of IR. If our baseline is 0% it probably can't be buffed (anything * 0 = 0). Secondly, DH doesn't give any additional bonus like crit does. It's a flat 25% that can't ever increase. So even with a boosted DH rating during IR it doesn't effect the damage output (unlike crit where it's a marginal increase in crit damage)

Personally, I think Warrior needs a straight-up rework. Right now, he feels like DRK without the oGCDs (and people complain about DRK--everytime I see those threads, I just wanna say, "Have you looked at Warrior?"). I get that Warrior had the IR mechanic first, but I think DRK is pulling it off better, right now.

I'd make Warrior the tank that puts up a buff, and keeps it up with a GCD rotation. Like, if Berserk/IR were scaled way back, but doing your rotation could keep it up indefinitely. The burst window would be Inner Beast -> Fell Cleave -> Inner Chaos (which means, making each its own ability, rather than just an upgrade to the previous one), and maybe to get into it you need to have all your buffs already up when you execute Storm's Path. Buffs would be Storm's Eye and Berserk....and maybe a toned down Thrill of Battle? I'm just making stuff up at this point. But Infuriate would change to allow you to do attacks and get the combo bonus, even if it were out of combo?

The simpler option would be to turn Inner Beast/Fell Cleave/Inner Chaos into separate abilities and a combo chain with a total cost of like 50 beast gauge, so you build up beast gauge then go into your Beast Combo. Storm's Eye + Storm's Path comob gives 50 gauge. Infuriate gets your right into the combo. Probably take the oGCDs off beast gauge, though. (But I think if Beast Gauge stays at it is, Delirium on DRK needs a functional change--they should not be *almost* identical.)

Warrior has probably the best kit at keeping itself alive with a decent party buff that grants an AoE shield instead of magic damage only. Warrior damage is only slightly behind the other three tanks by less than 200 dps. It's not reasonable to ask for a damage buff to Warrior because any damage buff would just make it the best tank again and YoshiP already stated he did not want Warrior to be the best and he does not intend to make changes to tank damage.

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Originally Posted by JarvisAulin

Warrior has probably the best kit at keeping itself alive with a decent party buff that grants an AoE shield instead of magic damage only. Warrior damage is only slightly behind the other three tanks by less than 200 dps. It's not reasonable to ask for a damage buff to Warrior because any damage buff would just make it the best tank again and YoshiP already stated he did not want Warrior to be the best and he does not intend to make changes to tank damage.

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Totally agree.

People want the highest amount of personal CDs and the highest DPS, why? because old expansions..."Warrior was the best tank in Heavensward and was top DPS in Stormblood, and now in Shadowbringers we have a lot of personals CDs but we aren't top DPS, it can't be !!!! ". Something like that.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

e)

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devilment and bv can add direct hit if even if your dh rate is zero

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Originally Posted by JarvisAulin

Warrior has probably the best kit at keeping itself alive with a decent party buff that grants an AoE shield instead of magic damage only. Warrior damage is only slightly behind the other three tanks by less than 200 dps. It's not reasonable to ask for a damage buff to Warrior because any damage buff would just make it the best tank again and YoshiP already stated he did not want Warrior to be the best and he does not intend to make changes to tank damage.

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Except it doesn't. First and foremost, virtually every raid wide AoE in the game is magic damage. Therefore, it's rather moot. Dark Knight has far better defensive options; Paladin is better as an OT and all three tanks do higher damage. Now that isn't to say Warrior is bad. It isn't. But it doesn't excel in any area beyond HP recovery—which isn't nearly as valuable given how much healers can heal for. Furthermore, Warrior does not benefit from half the raid buffs the other tanks do, and is prone to much bigger losses due to how Inner Chaos, IR and Fell Cleave work. No one is asking Warrior be the best tank again, but as it currently stands, it's the worst in almost every category. Again, not by a large margin but enough that some small tweaks would go a long way.

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Originally Posted by JarvisAulin

Warrior has probably the best kit at keeping itself alive with a decent party buff that grants an AoE shield instead of magic damage only. Warrior damage is only slightly behind the other three tanks by less than 200 dps. It's not reasonable to ask for a damage buff to Warrior because any damage buff would just make it the best tank again and YoshiP already stated he did not want Warrior to be the best and he does not intend to make changes to tank damage.

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No, PLD has the best kit at keeping itself alive. Its called clemency. WAR dies as soon as it can't target someone with Nascent flash which is already a 'meh' heal. Soon PLD will have almost the same mitigation as WAR when we get even better shields with more block. WAR is pretty darn worthless outside of specific fights that throw alot of forced tank swap tankbusters. Eden Prime? Don't use WAR. E2S? (can't remember the name right now of the boss XP) WAR is clunky at best in there. Leviathan? Well WAR/DRK combo is great there but... vengeance is a dead skill so its going to deal even less damage than it could in any other fight. Titan? F no. Bring a PLD/DRK in there or even a GNB, WAR is straight up trash in that fight basically requiring much more work than you need in it.

WAR doesn't need a potency buff... it needs a rework. Holy crap does it play like dog crap outside of IR, its the worst feeling tank job by a long shot even with DRK's clunkiness.

Paladin is not actually going to get better shields with more block, everything above Ronkan shield has the exact same block stats, indicating they decided to put a cap on them. Also Paladin shouldn't be using Clemency in savage almost ever and even then, none of Warrior's self heals have Clemency's huge DPS cost.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Paladin is not actually going to get better shields with more block, everything above Ronkan shield has the exact same block stats, indicating they decided to put a cap on them. Also Paladin shouldn't be using Clemency in savage almost ever and even then, none of Warrior's self heals have Clemency's huge DPS cost.

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Its an OPTION that they have. Should they? No. WAR equilibrium is as good as one auto attack from a savage boss. Completely throw it out if you want to argue survivablity for 1 basic attack. If a WAR sees a healer die and the other healer needs to focus on the group insteand of themselves, a WAR can easily die because their self heal maybe frequent, its also extremely limited. A PLD can sit there for 10 secs and just spam clemency keeping themselves or even helping others stay alive if this situation arises.
Holmgang in this tier is exceptionally bad except for leviathan, in Titan WAR is the worst tank of all of them. You have to use cooldowns to survive the first stonecrusher THEN holmgang the 2nd two making healers have to hal you up to full before the tank buster and then AGAIN right afterwards in order for you not to die.

Don't use WARs except for maybe Leviathan, just don't. This is coming from a WAR main.

Warrior needs its dps stance back. That's the real problem. It's great im untouchable when questing, but the damage is embarrassing. It's not fun chipping away at regular mobs.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

in Titan WAR is the worst tank of all of them. You have to use cooldowns to survive the first stonecrusher THEN holmgang the 2nd two making healers have to hal you up to full before the tank buster and then AGAIN right afterwards in order for you not to die.

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You make it sound a lot worse than it really is, to be honest. Pre-heals and Nascent Flash are all you need in order to stay healthy for the first Stonecrusher (which is the only one WAR should be taking). You also don't need much mitigation at all to survive it from full HP. If you have some gear upgrades, you actually don't need anything at all.

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Don't use WARs except for maybe Leviathan, just don't. This is coming from a WAR main.

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This is a poor attitude. WAR performs fine, if not better than fine, for the entirety of the tier; use it if you so desire.

The only fight where I think WAR actually kind of struggles is E4S, but that's entirely because of Inner Release timings.

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Originally Posted by Nhisso

Warrior needs its dps stance back. That's the real problem. It's great im untouchable when questing, but the damage is embarrassing. It's not fun chipping away at regular mobs.

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The DPS of all tanks was proportionally reduced (in comparison to DPS classes) this expansion, and its clearly a deliberate decision taken at the level of invisible damage formulas. It's unlikely they will reverse this for any tanks, so the problem is universal among tanks and likely to stay.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

The DPS of all tanks was proportionally reduced (in comparison to DPS classes) this expansion, and its clearly a deliberate decision taken at the level of invisible damage formulas. It's unlikely they will reverse this for any tanks, so the problem is universal among tanks and likely to stay.

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Warrior dps feel SO LOW before 80 and inner chaos. And it doesnt feel good that damage outside of fell cleave and inner chaos feels terrible...

Warrior doesn't need any buffs, he needs storms eye to last longer and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Noctisnine

Warrior doesn't need any buffs, he needs storms eye to last longer and thats it.

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Nascent flash party requirement also sucks. Self heal should work without party member.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Self heal should work without party member.

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It does, Equilibrium. Nascent Flash is party support, not a personal self heal. I get that it's nice self healing in dungeons and when it lines up with IC or IR, to me it just seems way more complicated waiting for those opportunities in raids compared to just taking the mitigation from RI. I've gone through this whole raid tier without using NF. Maybe that's shame on me but whatever, I MT like 95% of the time so it's just easier to use RI. I'm not trying for orange healing logs.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

The only fight where I think WAR actually kind of struggles is E4S, but that's entirely because of Inner Release timings.

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Yea IR get's a bit wanky. Only real solution I could come up with is burning it on CD so it stays lined up with other raid buffs. Maybe not optimal, but neither is getting stuck at the back out of melee range with a colored marker. More or less determined by RNG either way.

Yeah i just gamble my IR in the 2nd phase. There is no good alternative. Although life got much hetter when i realized you can still atrack from 9 and 12 squares by standing on the last pixel of the corner. Hitting from there makes the odds of getting screwed really low, but still possible.

01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08
09 10 11 12
13 14 15 16

1st phase is annoying, but doable to get all the IRs. 2nd phase has a little rng. Blue back corner is just bad luck. Final phase is ez IR windows.

And wouldnt you know ky 1st clear dropped a drk sword. Guess whos going dark next week lol.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It does, Equilibrium. Nascent Flash is party support, not a personal self heal. I get that it's nice self healing in dungeons and when it lines up with IC or IR, to me it just seems way more complicated waiting for those opportunities in raids compared to just taking the mitigation from RI. I've gone through this whole raid tier without using NF. Maybe that's shame on me but whatever, I MT like 95% of the time so it's just easier to use RI. I'm not trying for orange healing logs.

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Look I just want Nascent Flash to work when your doing content solo. I do some earlier dungeons solo to get gear for glamour or seals(cough or relic) and..., well it’s still possible to solo it as WAR but you do feel that lack of healing we used to have easier.

And yeah, “Shouldn’t be balanced against that type content” whatever; it should be to hard to make a check that says “If no Party Member detected, do the skill anyway”.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Look I just want Nascent Flash to work when your doing content solo. I do some earlier dungeons solo to get gear for glamour or seals(cough or relic) and..., well it’s still possible to solo it as WAR but you do feel that lack of healing we used to have easier.

And yeah, “Shouldn’t be balanced against that type content” whatever; it should be to hard to make a check that says “If no Party Member detected, do the skill anyway”.

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Nascent Flash is ONLY WARs answer to Intervention and TBN on a party member, more so to address people crying over PLDs monopoly on the OT slot back in SB. You have Equilibrium every 60seconds and Storm's Path for self heals, WAR get's free healing as it does it's thing. I mean unless PLD can use it's own Intervention on themself with the additional effect of the base mitigation increased through rampart, Sentinel or both are active, then WAR shouldn't be able to use Nascent Flash on itself.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly. It has zero buff synergy due to guaranteed Direct Hi Crits, it has a weaker overall defensive kit than Paladin and flirts with being dead last in DPS. Add to that Onslaught abruptly became the worst gap closer (baring its range) and Storm's Eye, and it's hard to call Warrior being equal.

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This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Look I just want Nascent Flash to work when your doing content solo. I do some earlier dungeons solo to get gear for glamour or seals(cough or relic) and..., well it’s still possible to solo it as WAR but you do feel that lack of healing we used to have easier.

And yeah, “Shouldn’t be balanced against that type content” whatever; it should be to hard to make a check that says “If no Party Member detected, do the skill anyway”.

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They gave DRG the option to Dragon sight themselves, no reason Nascent Flash can't get the same treatment.

Regardless you could always flash your chocobo if you really wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They gave DRG the option to Dragon sight themselves, no reason Nascent Flash can't get the same treatment.

Regardless you could always flash your chocobo if you really wanted to.

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Not in Dungeons I'm doing solo for reasons.

Theres instances where this isnt possible like instanced quests.

Also the party requirement makes the action require a macro. And at times, you have to mash the macro multiple times to make it work.

They should remove the party target requirement period.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile.

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Sure, if you're only looking at rDPS (which you shouldn't be).

Just give warrior instant boss kill button.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

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No, this is a major issue. DPS isn't the only reason. This raid tier is not made for WAR and in fact its the weakest tank in all but 1 fight, Leviathan. It has 0 strenghts that make it stand out besides "self healing" which is a useless stat when you self heal just a few auto attacks in the long run. Then there are fights that absolutely hate on WAR, mainly E4S. Titan HAAATES WAR with it throwing off and RNGing screwing WARs on some of their IR windows if they get picked for a mechanic their DPS will tank. And then there is the tank buster. WAR is the only Tank that can't invuln the entire tankbuster of stonecrusher. You have to make sure a WAR has full hp, they must cooldown the first hit, then holmgang, then healers have to be ready to again instant heal the WAR afterwards. Lets look at the other options in this fight:

DRK: Living Dead lasts through the entire stonecrusher, just make sure you heal him once it ends. Clunky but can be easily planned around.
GNB: Must wait for the last moment to superbiolde the tankbuster to make it last. Any mistake and they are dead. Healers can heal them during the TB making it easy to top them off because of complete invulnerability.
PLD: Basically an almost REQUIRED tank in Titan as Hallowed makes the third phase where a crap ton of healing is required a joke and helps the healers immensely. Being able to invuln that final stonecrusher is great for healers to catch back up, or to save their resources for AoE healing.

WAR? Brings nothing but a possible handicap on Titan if you get screw balled by RNG and more work for the ground on tank busters. In 1/2 there are akward timings in the fight and the problem is WAR is best when its the main tank the ENITRE TIME. E2 is theoretically WARs best fight... but the heads can make missing a fell cleave during IR a big problem mulitple times. DRK has that problem too in E2, but it brings solid mitigation and isn't fully gimped if it loses 1 bloodspiller every so often. WAR missing an IR Fell Cleave? That is painful.

Remember, WAR is the least played tank class now. By quite a bit. The other 3 tanks are fairly close in activity, WAR is has a big play gap between the other tanks... and there is a reason for it. (The really awful flow of the job when IR is on cooldown might be a contributor)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But, it is linear. A .05% expected damage increase from Critical Hit is takes ~16.5 Critical Hit stat, whether currently at 430 CH or over 2400 CH.
When the slope (stat count per interval of return) is equal at any point in the function... it's linear.
Critical Hit does never changes its stat-per-%damage (or, %damage-per-stat) as the total stat value increases. Critical Hit, itself, is therefore linear.

Its only non-linearity is its interaction with Direct Hit, which provides only faintly more multiplicity than either's interaction with Determination.

You should probably look these things up before calling someone else both a liar and egotist...

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Id assume the reason he thinks the other is being "an egotist" is because he was confident in the truth.
Which makes sense, having confidence in the truth. But since this guy refuses to use the damage calculator to see the proof, he's assuming he's still right, and the other is wrong.
And when you assume you're in the correct, then the other person being confident comes off as egotistical.

But yeah, I was also surprised by the idea 1st presented, and when looking it up, saw he was correct. But it seems rather normal here on the forums.
When someone points out a little known fact, that seems to defy the very concept we ingrained in ourselves, everyone throws a fit, even when the proof is presented.
(like when people found out a powerful ability that takes up a resource, makes its own damage lower, by taking up the resource needed to use the very same move. People argued forever saying you cant calculate an ability having some negative dps due to its resource cost. Since the value of the resource was only ever towards the ability in question.)

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

No, this is a major issue. DPS isn't the only reason.

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While I agree with you, this argument isnt fully convincing because the end result was 2%, like they said.
in the case of WAR not offering anything on its own, despite this, all of the weaknesses still leads to a win, with only a 2% difference between it and another tank.

The real argument is that the WARs -2% means that there is no other benefit to counter this 2%.
Back in early SB, when PLD was the guaranteed tank, WARs shake it off (removed debuffs) and DPS, was put against DRKs TBN for utility.
The obvious answer is the higher DPS.

But some people actually argued they valued the higher utility of TBN. This demand lead to the JP players asking SE to fix shake it off into the utility it was. (which was mostly better for the sake of utility, not for TBs)
So not only was WAR better than DRK, it was made a step ahead again.
But the only reason this happened, is because theoretical/perceived bonuses/uniqueness gives value to jobs, even when faced with an obvious flaw/weakness.

In short, you're asking for WAR to have something the other tanks dont. As compensation.
(Which it technically does, but the fights just arent tailored for WARs positives. just as HW wasnt tailored for PLD to abuse cover, to the point that PLD could abuse it in SB to cheat mechanics)

Others will argue the "compensation" is the fact tanks are in demand, so having a tank with only negatives is fine, if the negative is as minor as -2% from the top tank.
(This makes sense, but the designers shouldnt have ever made the mistake in the 1st place.)

So while being correct, the end result is "good enough" so you wont find many supporters, as plenty either
(1) dont want to waste resources on WARs, when other jobs need more balance
or
(2) dont want to rock the boat. or 'dont fix what isnt broken', as they will fear it will have the reverse effect and break something else.

I think its best to ask SE to make future savage fights use every tanks pro/con be considered with either every savage fight, or at least the last 2 fights of savage. (3rd/4th floors)

If they buff war they HAVE to buff the other tanks which is I believe there will absolutely be no potency buffs for any of the tanks the entire expansion. Reason being as soon as war gets buffed players will complain and SE will be in a arms race to buff and balence all the tanks. Right now no one is.complaining about tank DPS and all the tanks are viable DPS wise so like they said in the live letter and by most of the player community tanks for dps aint being touched. Personally I would be surprised if they do any damage increase to any tank until 6.0 and it's not needed it just isn't WAR just need quality of life changes like overpower not costing beast gauge( makes no sense) other then that it's a good job with great potential as the expansion goes on and stats increase

I think it's fair to give warrior a little potency buff to mirror the fact that it is the hardest tank to play effectively and extremely reliant on burst, I think it deserves to be in line with paladin and gunbreaker, so an itsy bitsy potency would be ok.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

I think it's fair to give warrior a little potency buff to mirror the fact that it is the hardest tank to play effectively and extremely reliant on burst, I think it deserves to be in line with paladin and gunbreaker, so an itsy bitsy potency would be ok.

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Hardest tank to play??? Hardly you manage nothing except wait for you inner realese window and manage your rotation. You manage more with DRK then WAR. Naw nothing WAR has constitute a a buff especially with critical hit upscaling as the expansion continues. Although there is an argument that all the tanks will benefit for critical hit!

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

Hardest tank to play??? Hardly you manage nothing except wait for you inner realese window and manage your rotation. You manage more with DRK then WAR. Naw nothing WAR has constitute a a buff especially with critical hit upscaling as the expansion continues. Although there is an argument that all the tanks will benefit for critical hit!

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You manage beast gauge and Infuriate charges as well as Storm's Eye.
DRK manages... blood gauge. That's it. MP manages itself due to the recharge rate being naturally timed to one minute and Darkside might as well be permanent.

Don't get me wrong, WAR is very simple, but other tanks are even more so somehow.

Tank balance is fine though. They don't need buffs/nerfs - just some gameplay that's not coma-inducing and that's not just the jobs, but also overall tank mechanics this tier.

It's also untrue that WAR doesn't bring anything to current encounters, it might not be the best, but it's not worthless:
Shake is way better in e1s than Missionary and HoL, a bit better than Veil due to affecting the caster while taking autos after % based raidwides.
You shouldn't be losing IR FCs due to heads in e2s. It might require some practice, but maneuvering between them for uptime is easy enough.
In e4s Holmgang is the only invuln which can be used on the first Megalith(which is the most valuable to invuln due to the double TB right before it) after being used in phase 1 and will be back up for 2nd Megalith as well. Saying that first Stonecrusher is an issue is silly, considering it's already a dps gain to use Vengeance with IR for it. IR timings in e4s are indeed hella wack though.

Difficulty is relative because the skills you need to optimize the tanks vary. Pld is a strict rotation with no variation. Some have said that makes it the simplist because there is nothing to manage. Its just wrote script of buttons to push making it the most simple. Others say it is the hard because you have to apply a strict zero flexibility rotation into complex fights and trying to maintain this strict rotation in those situations can be challenging. Both of those are valid views. Same wirth drk/war that have a flowing resource that can is highly flexible. Some people really struggle to optimize those decisions and would rather just have a wrote rotation to follow. Some people find the real time flexible resource management comes naturally and makes these jobs feel utterly braindead because managing a flexible rotation on the fly comes easily.

It just depends on how your brain works. Structured vs unstructured styles are very different for different people.

That said, all the tanks are simple enough and SE has stated they dont want to balance jobs around difficulty to play for dps. You dont get to do more dps because your job is harder as that screws up the meta and creates exclusions. Harder jobs are there for the challenge, Not to win the parse according to se. So please let go of the idea that "my job needs dps buffs because its 'harder"'. That does not go over well in a PVE coop game and shouldnt be a design goal.

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

If they buff war they HAVE to buff the other tanks which is I believe there will absolutely be no potency buffs for any of the tanks the entire expansion. Reason being as soon as war gets buffed players will complain and SE will be in a arms race to buff and balence all the tanks. Right now no one is.complaining about tank DPS and all the tanks are viable DPS wise so like they said in the live letter and by most of the player community tanks for dps aint being touched. Personally I would be surprised if they do any damage increase to any tank until 6.0 and it's not needed it just isn't WAR just need quality of life changes like overpower not costing beast gauge( makes no sense) other then that it's a good job with great potential as the expansion goes on and stats increase

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Yeah...DPS isn't the major complaint with WAR/DRK. Its the entire flow of the jobs. They straight up suck. WAR feels worse to play than DRK because the down time on the job is DREADFUL and almost painful to play. There is a reason WAR is by far the least played tank in the game at least when it comes to end game right now. PLD/GNB/DRK are fairly close in player count/clears but WAR is far behind them.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

You manage beast gauge and Infuriate charges as well as Storm's Eye.
DRK manages... blood gauge. That's it. MP manages itself due to the recharge rate being naturally timed to one minute and Darkside might as well be permanent.

Don't get me wrong, WAR is very simple, but other tanks are even more so somehow.

Tank balance is fine though. They don't need buffs/nerfs - just some gameplay that's not coma-inducing and that's not just the jobs, but also overall tank mechanics this tier.

It's also untrue that WAR doesn't bring anything to current encounters, it might not be the best, but it's not worthless:
Shake is way better in e1s than Missionary and HoL, a bit better than Veil due to affecting the caster while taking autos after % based raidwides.
You shouldn't be losing IR FCs due to heads in e2s. It might require some practice, but maneuvering between them for uptime is easy enough.
In e4s Holmgang is the only invuln which can be used on the first Megalith(which is the most valuable to invuln due to the double TB right before it) after being used in phase 1 and will be back up for 2nd Megalith as well. Saying that first Stonecrusher is an issue is silly, considering it's already a dps gain to use Vengeance with IR for it. IR timings in e4s are indeed hella wack though.

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Why would you need holmgang for megalith? Rampart + Job identity cooldown is plenty and you can use your 30% GCD on the shared TB because nothing else happens for tanks for almost 3 minutes. You don't need holmgang at all in E4S and actually its a detriment compared to all other invulns since healers have to make sure you are at full HP twice instead of just once on all other tanks.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Why would you need holmgang for megalith? Rampart + Job identity cooldown is plenty and you can use your 30% GCD on the shared TB because nothing else happens for tanks for almost 3 minutes. You don't need holmgang at all in E4S and actually its a detriment compared to all other invulns since healers have to make sure you are at full HP twice instead of just once on all other tanks.

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Why would ypu need to be at full hp twice? Thays kinda the point of immunities. In my runs, both tanks mitigate the double buster (i nascent the other tank since im going to HG next anyway to help him out), which leaves me (war) at around 30% and my Gun very healthy. Then i wait around at 30% (no autos since hes casting) and then HG megalith. Whm benes me. Its extremely low impact on healers since gun is piled high on defense and nascent and i just take the bene after both busters. The solo megalith again, HG+ bene. 1st buster of the fight, HG+ bene. Hg is really good in this fight. If you are topping your war off twice you arent taking adcantage of HG.

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

Hardest tank to play??? Hardly you manage nothing except wait for you inner realese window and manage your rotation. You manage more with DRK then WAR. Naw nothing WAR has constitute a a buff especially with critical hit upscaling as the expansion continues. Although there is an argument that all the tanks will benefit for critical hit!

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And sadly we don’t really manage anything anymore as a DRK either >_<

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Yeah...DPS isn't the major complaint with WAR/DRK. Its the entire flow of the jobs. They straight up suck. WAR feels worse to play than DRK because the down time on the job is DREADFUL and almost painful to play. There is a reason WAR is by far the least played tank in the game at least when it comes to end game right now. PLD/GNB/DRK are fairly close in player count/clears but WAR is far behind them.

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WAR is dreadfully boring to play because instead of expanding on an idea they decided to just double down on the awful meme-cleave culture WAR had going for it. WAR got some solid QoL changes in SB that did end up simplifying the job, but that's mostly because the effort vs. reward wasn't high enough and buffing WAR's DPS further to justify it would just recreate HW all over again; that being said it still had more going for it than just Inner Release FC spam > 90 seconds downtime > Inner Release FC spam since it still had unchained stance-dancing as a panic defensive option.

WAR's numbers are fine, but this crap makes 2.0 Paladin look interesting, and that's why it's the only tank I haven't gotten to 80. I mean hell I even leveled culinarian to 80 and that job disgusts me on a metaphysical level.