I DON'T like Stormblood RDM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Has nothing to do with meta, it's purely based on disparities and RDMs kit not interacting properly with the RNG nature of it's burst window, the lack of resource control and the over taxation of verraise. i didn't drop the term meta in my post once because thats not my goal here

---

I never said you or anyone "said" meta, I was just stating that a lot of it sounds like people are using the meta to want to make changes, not gameplay and fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

I never said you or anyone "said" meta, I was just stating that a lot of it sounds like people are using the meta to want to make changes, not gameplay and fun.

---

Fun and gameplay are great, but balance is also a thing. In fact, balance seems to be the reason some people here say "you can't buff RDM's DPS output because they have Verraise". And since the developers have also taken this stance (according to what has been mentioned in this thread), the ground rules for the discussion have already been decided.

The alternative would be to just sit there and accept that RDM should be treated this way because of utility, which goes counter to the point of DPS classes in a trinity MMO. Hell, even in non-trinity MMOs it can be a problem.

Verraise should stay, but only be a balancing footnote so long as DPS-checks for progression Savage are tuned to make 2+ deaths into an automatic failure.

RDM needs more White Magic, not less, but tinted with a DPS angle. Reflect/Wall for a raid defensive + counterattack, Ver-Assize for healing+damage and a way to do away with or force a change to lucid as a role action (thing is so sad on BLM), give an oGCD heal that's strong enough to turn one healer healing GCD into a DPS GCD per cooldown (bring erase back, but buffed?).

RDM could use appreciable auto-attacks. This places them closer to being melee (maybe a cooldown could be made to allow ranged autos for a little bit, as a mechanics mitigator). Zipping out of range remains an option for dodging or movement, but the default place for RDM is up close (frankly, there's no BENEFIT to being able to go in an out that SUM or BLM or any physical ranged doesn't already have).

RDM deserves to be the support-DPS of the caster branch, with a healing and defensive streak to match their lore and legacy in the FF series. They DO need to be ~12-15% below BLM DPS, because BLM offers absolutely nothing else (except AoE sleep lol). RDM's problem in my eyes isn't that it's a bad DPS, it's that its support function is wrongly focused on Raise and a GCD Cure that's only relevant for soloing or salvaging hopeless parties in content with no enrage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Verraise should stay, but only be a balancing footnote so long as DPS-checks for progression Savage are tuned to make 2+ deaths into an automatic failure.

RDM needs more White Magic, not less, but tinted with a DPS angle. Reflect/Wall for a raid defensive + counterattack, Ver-Assize for healing+damage and a way to do away with or force a change to lucid as a role action (thing is so sad on BLM), give an oGCD heal that's strong enough to turn one healer healing GCD into a DPS GCD per cooldown (bring erase back, but buffed?).

RDM could use appreciable auto-attacks. This places them closer to being melee (maybe a cooldown could be made to allow ranged autos for a little bit, as a mechanics mitigator). Zipping out of range remains an option for dodging or movement, but the default place for RDM is up close (frankly, there's no BENEFIT to being able to go in an out that SUM or BLM or any physical ranged doesn't already have).

RDM deserves to be the support-DPS of the caster branch, with a healing and defensive streak to match their lore and legacy in the FF series. They DO need to be ~12-15% below BLM DPS, because BLM offers absolutely nothing else (except AoE sleep lol). RDM's problem in my eyes isn't that it's a bad DPS, it's that its support function is wrongly focused on Raise and a GCD Cure that's only relevant for soloing or salvaging hopeless parties in content with no enrage.

---

Thanks for this, its sorta what I was trying to say, but couldnt because I kept having to pulled back into work. For the most part RDM does emulate the feel of a RDM quite well, but people are too focused on their lower DPS and Verraise, that's the Meta I mentioned. The focus needs to be on how they feel as a "caster" DPS since that is what they are classified as, and in that aspect some tweaks could be made so that they feel like they offer more support then just a raise. Verraise itself isn't the issue, people are making it the issue, which is why SE has their current stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Verraise should stay, but only be a balancing footnote so long as DPS-checks for progression Savage are tuned to make 2+ deaths into an automatic failure.

RDM needs more White Magic, not less, but tinted with a DPS angle. Reflect/Wall for a raid defensive + counterattack, Ver-Assize for healing+damage and a way to do away with or force a change to lucid as a role action (thing is so sad on BLM), give an oGCD heal that's strong enough to turn one healer healing GCD into a DPS GCD per cooldown (bring erase back, but buffed?).

RDM could use appreciable auto-attacks. This places them closer to being melee (maybe a cooldown could be made to allow ranged autos for a little bit, as a mechanics mitigator). Zipping out of range remains an option for dodging or movement, but the default place for RDM is up close (frankly, there's no BENEFIT to being able to go in an out that SUM or BLM or any physical ranged doesn't already have).

RDM deserves to be the support-DPS of the caster branch, with a healing and defensive streak to match their lore and legacy in the FF series. They DO need to be ~12-15% below BLM DPS, because BLM offers absolutely nothing else (except AoE sleep lol). RDM's problem in my eyes isn't that it's a bad DPS, it's that its support function is wrongly focused on Raise and a GCD Cure that's only relevant for soloing or salvaging hopeless parties in content with no enrage.

---

As much as I would love for rdm to become healer support as their job identity, it would not break the wheel of the current situation. Prog mage and farm mage.

I would however like to limit, but extend casters into that role of healer support with an ogcd role action raise and bringing back apocastasis [combine ranged bind and heavy together then give them back palisade too to contrast.] A buffed Erase can come back as a RDM skill, by moving Engagement down to level 40 at 100 potency, then buffed to 150 at 72 with displacement trait.

To me, all meaningful raid defensive tools should be shared amongst the role. Defense should be balanced separately from offense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

I never said you or anyone "said" meta, I was just stating that a lot of it sounds like people are using the meta to want to make changes, not gameplay and fun.

---

I'll explain the problem with verraise as a utility when compared to other jobs. AST is rewarded with RDPS for their raid, NIN is rewarded with rdps, every job's primary utility rewards the raid for good play with the exception of RDM and to a lesser extent, SMN as a portion of their kit is hindered but balanced around the idea of fixing the mistakes of others. This is NOT a reward, raising is inherently a dps negative ability as someone needs to die for it to be applicable. Thats the first problem as it's the ONLY raid utility that may or may not reach it's activation requirement. Should this happen, since healers have REZ, it would need to be more than just 1 or 2 isolated deaths for Verraise and SMN rez to be of actual value when compared to compositions without them. The problem lies with the fact that RDMs contribution is so low, that in early encounters, 2 deaths is likely the max to reach enrage without gear and in High level progression such as Turn 3 or 4, Death is flat out not acceptable if you mean to clear the encounter. Here is your fundamentally flawed issue with caster Rez and why it should be removed, it's because it's only limits SMN and RDMs potential as DPS and actively loses effectiveness later on while not fully mitigating the penalty of Death because that would be too strong.

Tl;dr:
1. Verraise is not truly quantifiable by the community and the developers
2. It is not a reward for RDM and SMN as it is inherently dps negative to the caster
3. It taxes their dps far too much without filling in the gaps of Utility needed for disparities not to exist actively making encounters more difficult early on, and the skills are pointless after awhile
4. It does nothing for a good party and begins to actively work against a RDM and SMNs performance
5. RDM shouldn't exist to clean up PF/DF memes, if you're wiping so much that they're needed, you're likely not clearing that run anyway

That doesn't require Verraise to go away. It just requires SE to realize that one raise and minor rDPS buff alone does not a support kit make.

Not all utility is quantifiable in the same way. Class fantasy is also something to remember. As much as someone in this thread said they wanted Mystic Knight, RDM is not MKT. It's Red Mage, a fusion of black and white magic that can attack with magic and sword, heal, and support. RDM in FF14 would need several healing/supportive spells/abilities to hold onto that legacy if Verraise is dropped. Frankly, I think it should get them anyways in addition to retaining Verraise.

Again, this isn't an intrinsic problem with Verraise, it's the FF14 dev team's inability to balance things that aren't straight DPS numbers. And the trend of homogenizing to deal with it is going to burn them eventually. The more similar things get, the more you compress uniqueness and disparity of utility, the more little differences can make one job definitively superior to another.

If they decide to gift RDM with more utility and rewards beyond verraise, i'll gleefully take that. But so long as it's treated as the center point of our kit, will i continue to advocate for it's removal. RDM is a DPS first and foremost, removing Raise won't make the job homogenized with BLM. if that were true, every job thats not RDM and SMN would be BLM. There is a fine line to walk between homogenization and removing verraise doesn't inherently make the jobs the same. If your reason for keeping it is because it's different then what BLM has without actually considering what it does for RDM. then it sounds like you're here to promote job diversity rather than the Balance by which that diversity hinges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

If they decide to gift RDM with more utility and rewards beyond verraise, i'll gleefully take that. But so long as it's treated as the center point of our kit, will i continue to advocate for it's removal. RDM is a DPS first and foremost, removing Raise won't make the job homogenized with BLM. if that were true, every job thats not RDM and SMN would be BLM. There is a fine line to walk between homogenization and removing verraise doesn't inherently make the jobs the same. If your reason for keeping it is because it's different then what BLM has without actually considering what it does for RDM. then it sounds like you're here to promote job diversity rather than the Balance by which that diversity hinges.

---

Raise alone? No. But this is a pattern of steps, and I'm keenly aware of it on my healers.

If you look at disparity of utility in ARR and HW, then StB, then now, there's a trend of boiling down skillsets within roles. In some cases, this has led to major disillusionment with the job (AST) or the job's core fantasy being put on life support despite being good at its trinity role (BRD). In BLM's case, it reduced them from the concept of "high DPS AND great crowd controller" to just the former, because the devs essentially abandoned non-interrupt CC as a game mechanic. It leaves less room as things get compressed. Again, BRD lost a lot of its support because they wanted to make room for DNC, rather than differentiating their support kits (or rather, they half did, but the unique things left to bard are, like BLM's old CC's and remnant Sleep, unsupported in 99% of content. When was the last time a serious fight had a cleansable status?).

If you define balance as "everything equal in all scenarios" then I supposed we have nothing more to say to one another. I vastly prefer the style of balance FF11 and many fighting games undertake, where balance is attained by letting diversity shine in different niches and scenarios. Going down the reductionist route of making everyone fit into the same holes with no individuality leads to Cata-WoW and similar monotone "balance." Soulless and constricting to encounter design and depth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Back then that was about a 13% difference.

If you look at RDPS differentials now, it's a 15% difference.

If you look at ADPS it's 21%, though this number differs from between 15-20% depending on the fight.

Wanting to close the gap to Stormblood levels without taking into account Shadowbringers inflation would reduce the actual RDPS value to around 5-6%, at which point, you might as well kick Black mage to the curb again, because that's about the difference there was in Delta.

---

Percentages are fun, but the reality is that health is not based around all these percentages alone, so this isn't a fair assumption. In a year's time, the current values will have a difference of 2k dps basically by default on any competent player, not just a top one.

Also fighting RDM on this when SMN was the culprit around that time, and not even because of raise is just silly. Embolden will not do what Contagion did. Remember that we were still working off of aDPS in logs as opposed to rDPS now, and people simply saw SMN as the better option because they were. And unlike SMN and RDM, BLM doesn't have that many options. This is why the gap has to be closed, but BLM should still remain ahead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Raise alone? No. But this is a pattern of steps, and I'm keenly aware of it on my healers.

If you look at disparity of utility in ARR and HW, then StB, then now, there's a trend of boiling down skillsets within roles. In some cases, this has led to major disillusionment with the job (AST) or the job's core fantasy being put on life support despite being good at its trinity role (BRD). In BLM's case, it reduced them from the concept of "high DPS AND great crowd controller" to just the former, because the devs essentially abandoned non-interrupt CC as a game mechanic. It leaves less room as things get compressed. Again, BRD lost a lot of its support because they wanted to make room for DNC, rather than differentiating their support kits (or rather, they half did, but the unique things left to bard are, like BLM's old CC's and remnant Sleep, unsupported in 99% of content. When was the last time a serious fight had a cleansable status?).

If you define balance as "everything equal in all scenarios" then I supposed we have nothing more to say to one another. I vastly prefer the style of balance FF11 and many fighting games undertake, where balance is attained by letting diversity shine in different niches and scenarios. Going down the reductionist route of making everyone fit into the same holes with no individuality leads to Cata-WoW and similar monotone "balance." Soulless and constricting to encounter design and depth.

---

This isn't 11, this is 14 and your approach to balance seems to be "it's fine as long as it's different" too bad, that difference doesn't matter. As long as jobs feel different and engaging to play, look asthetically pleasing, and contribute well relative to each other. Then a good balance will be achieved. RDMs do deserve more healing abilities and i don't mind that but, unless they're ogcds like Assize, Indom, Whispering dawn, and any ability that is an OGCD. please don't waste our time with another situational GCD that good and dedicated players of the job that strive to be successful at it will avoid like the plague because healers will never ask you to use it over their own. This is why vercure goes unused aside from downtime. I can count on my Hands the amount of time, vercure saved a run because healers were preoccupied and tanks needed to live. it's not a lot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

This isn't 11, this is 14 and your approach to balance seems to be "it's fine as long as it's different" too bad, that difference doesn't matter. As long as jobs feel different and engaging to play, look asthetically pleasing, and contribute well relative to each other. Then a good balance will be achieved. RDMs do deserve more healing abilities and i don't mind that but, unless they're ogcds like Assize, Indom, Whispering dawn, and any ability that is an OGCD. please don't waste our time with another situational GCD that good and dedicated players of the job that strive to be successful at it will avoid like the plague because healers will never ask you to use it over their own. This is why vercure goes unused aside from downtime. I can count on my Hands the amount of time, vercure saved a run because healers were preoccupied and tanks needed to live. it's not a lot

---

My approach to balance is that it's actually easier to achieve, while maintaining fun, when you allow diversity. Trying to line up everyone's DPS is a game of whack-a-mole as jobs fall ahead and behind. As homogenization sets in, small differences make jobs completely superior, as there is no difference in niche to allow the lower DPS job a place. Making encounters that support different skill-sets and balancing the number of phases and/or encounters that favor given niches, on the other hand, ensures a place in the game for every job.

I know FF14 won't balance like that, and I mention in another post that different FF games need to adapt for genre, but 14 is going down a bad road by relying on compressing class design space down to role fundamentals. It hasn't hit the Cataclysm/Early EoC RS3 homogenization event horizon, yet, and I am trying to prevent that. StB BRD and NIN were a good example of adapting support skillsets into DPS jobs for a trinity game. If they could have given certain other jobs (RDM) something similar and then tuned the pure DD's (BLM/SAM) to a point of desirability, it would have been fine. Instead SE slashed support abilities from many jobs and roles, slashed diverse support from AST, slashed DPS from SCH, and slashed aggro management from every non-tank.

Gotta get all the pegs to fit precisely in their holes. But when most of the useful support abilities just increase rDPS, because the encounter design cares for little else, we shouldn't be surprised that pure DPS soar over or sink under "support" DPS based on whose rDPS is highest.

This wouldn't happen if a diverse array of support abilities occupied niches besides adding rDPS, and were actually supported by content (cleanable debuffs for BRD, the occasional thing that needs to be slept/bound/slowed, encounters that actually stress healers to the point that a) their full kits get used and b) defensive buffs/debuffs are more highly valued).

I envy people who can say a job "feels different to play" just based on rotation or aesthetic. That doesn't work for me, I need a difference in function. And I doubt I'm the only person who thinks that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

RDMs do deserve more healing abilities and i don't mind that but, unless they're ogcds like Assize, Indom, Whispering dawn, and any ability that is an OGCD. please don't waste our time with another situational GCD that good and dedicated players of the job that strive to be successful at it will avoid like the plague because healers will never ask you to use it over their own. This is why vercure goes unused aside from downtime. I can count on my Hands the amount of time, vercure saved a run because healers were preoccupied and tanks needed to live. it's not a lot.

---

Well, good. Because I never proposed further GCD support or healing skills for RDM. I also think that such additions need to be oGCD's. If there's a place to experiment with GCD support skills, it's on the healers as an alternative to nukespam during downtime.

EDIT NOTE: Accidentally deleted post during editing, and had to rewrite most of it! That's why things may have looked... strange.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

My approach to balance is that it's actually easier to achieve, while maintaining fun, when you allow diversity. Trying to line up everyone's DPS is a game of whack-a-mole as jobs fall ahead and behind. As homogenization sets in, small differences make jobs completely superior, as there is no difference in niche to allow the lower DPS job a place. Making encounters that support different skill-sets and balancing the number of phases and/or encounters that favor given niches, on the other hand, ensures a place in the game for every job.

I know FF14 won't balance like that, and I mention in another post that different FF games need to adapt for genre, but 14 is going down a bad road by relying on compressing class design space down to role fundamentals. It hasn't hit the Cataclysm/Early EoC RS3 homogenization event horizon, yet, and I am trying to prevent that. StB BRD and NIN were a good example of adapting support skillsets into DPS jobs for a trinity game. If they could have given certain other jobs (RDM) something similar and then tuned the pure DD's (BLM/SAM) to a point of desirability, it would have been fine. Instead SE slashed support abilities from many jobs and roles, slashed diverse support from AST, slashed DPS from SCH, and slashed aggro management from every non-tank.

Gotta get all the pegs to fit precisely in their holes. But when most of the useful support abilities just increase rDPS, because the encounter design cares for little else, we shouldn't be surprised that pure DPS soar over or sink under "support" DPS based on whose rDPS is highest.

This wouldn't happen if a diverse array of support abilities occupied niches besides adding rDPS, and were actually supported by content (cleanable debuffs for BRD, the occasional thing that needs to be slept/bound/slowed, encounters that actually stress healers to the point that a) their full kits get used and b) defensive buffs/debuffs are more highly valued).

I envy people who can say a job "feels different to play" just based on rotation or aesthetic. That doesn't work for me, I need a difference in function. And I doubt I'm the only person who thinks that way.

Well, good. Because I never proposed further GCD support or healing skills for RDM. I also think that such additions need to be oGCD's. If there's a place to experiment with GCD support skills, it's on the healers as an alternative to nukespam during downtime.

EDIT NOTE: Accidentally deleted post during editing, and had to rewrite most of it! That's why things may have looked... strange.

---

1. Needing a difference in function would imply some jobs could only do some content, taboo number one.

2. I don't like that SE slashed Aggro management for dps and MP assistance from ranged physical. But whether casters have an AoE bind or a Sleep means nothing no one because if they were required, they'd all need to have it, and judging by your attempt to job balance. you'd be perfectly ok if RDM and SMN couldn't do a fight because BLM is the only caster that has sleep simply because it's "different"

3. Different isn't better, Full homogeneity isn't the answer. In this type of game, there is a balance that needs to be landed to ensure all jobs can clear content and no disparities exist based solely upon the pursuit of being different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

1. Needing a difference in function would imply some jobs could only do some content, taboo number one.

---

This statement is incorrect, because of two false assumptions.

First is that content can only have a singular solution involving specific functions. It's entirely possible to create encounters with an either/or solution (ex. CC these adds or face a brutal healing check), or encounters that are more variable in order and content of checks (something FF14 has not done much of, its fights are quite rigidly choreographed).

Second is assuming that acceptable difference in function must be in kind and not in degree. While I prefer difference in function, I acknowledge that doesn't work for a trinity MMO. Difference in degree, however, does. This is things like a hypothetical RDM that is a DPS with the best off-healer support, or PLD having the most off-tank party mitigation, or AST being the healer with the most rDPS buffs. FF14 already does this, the issue is that it seems to be continuously reducing the number of relevant and effective functions down to one expansion to expansion. That function is rDPS, plus oGCD heal bombs and mitigation skills for healers and tanks respectively.

Say SE makes a Savage or Ultimate fight, and man do they finally bring the healing uptime. It's not easy being green in this fight. Our hypothetical adjusted RDM is really good here, their 2-3 decent healing/defensive oGCD's do a lot of work in relieving healer burden, and they have Vercure/raise if things get super hairy (but hey, optimally they go unused), but they're still a DPS. As great a pick as they are for this fight, though, you don't NEED a RDM. Some combo of DNC, SUM, BRD, MNK, and/or PLD can bring enough combined healing support to give the healers a breath too. Some of those plus a RDM makes healing easier still, but there's more to the fight and compromises have to be made in the capabilities of the team composition somewhere (you might still want BLM/SAM/MCH for that tight enrage). Perhaps good enough healers don't need off-heal support at all at farm level. Or maybe the high-skill farm strategy uses 1 healer and as many DPS+tanks with off-heals as possible, but most PUG's and lesser statics can't do it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

But whether casters have an AoE bind or a Sleep means nothing no one because if they were required, they'd all need to have it, and judging by your attempt to job balance. you'd be perfectly ok if RDM and SMN couldn't do a fight because BLM is the only caster that has sleep simply because it's "different"

---

Untrue, because it isn't just casters with CC. The healers could repose, the ranged could bind, etc. Having a BLM to get it over with in one cast would be nice, but there's other solutions, and if the rest of the fight has phases poorly suited to BLM's strong points some groups may forgo using one.

The goal is for every job to be best at something in a way that makes it feel unique in spread of capability, not merely what buttons are pressed when for how much. That could mean being the best at its core role, or mean best of its role in bringing a specific type of hybrid utility.

Also, RDM and SUM both had AoE binds just last expansion, so all casters having some form of AoE CC is right up my desires. In that case, BLM's only advantage is shutting down the mobs entirely regardless of party positioning or if the mobs have ranged attacks, a far lesser imbalance than not being able to CC at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

3. Different isn't better, Full homogeneity isn't the answer. In this type of game, there is a balance that needs to be landed to ensure all jobs can clear content

---

Sure, but (and you'll vehemently disagree with me here) I don't think a given job should be equally strong regardless of what composition they slot into. RDM needs to be able to clear any fight, sure, but I'd rather see a game where parties are built around attaining certain sum capabilities (and there's no fight that requires a SPECIFIC job) than one where you can insert your DPS into whatever DPS slot with whatever other jobs because every DPS job is completely interchangeable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

and no disparities exist based solely upon the pursuit of being different.

---

There is no such thing. I don't advocate this because I'm a hipster who loves things quirky and strange. I advocate it because playstyle diversity is a core aspect of fun in a game. It's what makes someone want to play BLM, RDM, and SUM rather than just "a caster DPS." Diverse toolkits also open up encounter design space. Ex. You can't include CC in a fight if no one has any worth using.

PS: A lot of this doesn't even come down to current or recent job design. It comes down to encounters designed to fully challenge only two things: party coordination in terms of positioning, and rDPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

This statement is incorrect, because of two false assumptions.

First is that content can only have a singular solution involving specific functions. It's entirely possible to create encounters with an either/or solution (ex. CC these adds or face a brutal healing check), or encounters that are more variable in order and content of checks (something FF14 has not done much of, its fights are quite rigidly choreographed).
Second is assuming that acceptable difference in function must be in kind and not in degree. While I prefer different in function, I acknowledge that doesn't work for a trinity MMO. Difference in degree, however, does. This is things like a hypothetical RDM that is a DPS with the best off-healer support, or PLD having the most off-tank party mitigation, or AST being the healer with the most rDPS buffs. FF14 already does this, the issue is that it seems to continuously reducing the number of relevant and effective degrees down to one, rDPS, plus HPS and mitigation for healers and tanks respectively.

Say SE makes a Savage or Ultimate fight, and man do they finally bring the healing uptime. It's not easy being green in this fight. Our hypothetical adjusted RDM is really good here, their 2-3 decent healing/defensive oGCD's do a lot of work in relieving healer burden, and they have Vercure/raise if things get super hairy (but hey, optimally they go unused), but they're still a DPS. As great a pick as they are for this fight, though, you don't NEED a RDM. Some combo of DNC, SUM, BRD, MNK, and/or PLD can bring enough combined healing support to give the healers a breath too. Some of those plus a RDM makes healing easier still, but there's more to the fight and compromises have to be made in the capabilities of the team composition somewhere. Perhaps good enough healers don't need off-heal support at all at farm level. Or maybe the high-skill farm strategy uses 1 healer and as many DPS+tanks with off-heals as possible, but most PUG's and lesser statics can't do it?

Untrue, because it isn't just casters with CC. The healers could repose, the ranged could bind, etc. Having a BLM to get it over with in one cast would be nice, but there's other solutions, and if the rest of the fight has phases poorly suited to BLM's strong points some groups may forgo using one.

The goal is for every job to be best at something in a way that makes it feel unique in spread of capability, not merely what buttons are pressed when for how much. That could mean being the best at its core role, or mean best of its role in bringing a specific type of hybrid utility.

Also, RDM and SUM both had AoE binds just last expansion, so all casters having some form of AoE CC is right up my desires. In that case, BLM's only advantage is shutting down the mobs entirely regardless of party positioning or if the mobs have ranged attacks, a far lesser imbalance than not being able to CC at all.

Sure, but (and you'll vehemently disagree with me here) I don't think a given job should be equally strong regardless of what composition they slot into. RDM needs to be able to clear any fight, sure, but I'd rather see a game where parties are built around attaining certain sum capabilities (and there's no fight that requires a SPECIFIC combination of jobs) than one where you can insert your DPS into whatever DPS slot with whatever other jobs because every DPS job is completely interchangeable.

There is no such thing. I don't advocate this because I'm a hipster who loves things quirky and strange. I advocate it because playstyle diversity is a core aspect of fun in a game. It's what makes someone want to play BLM, RDM, and SUM rather than just "a caster DPS."

PS: A lot of this doesn't even come down to current or recent job design. It comes down to encounters designed to fully challenge only two things: party coordination in terms of positioning, and rDPS.

---

You seem to want to play a different game friend, im glad we're past the era of random CC on jobs and what your suggesting causes confusion the more jobs are added to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

You seem to want to play a different game friend, im glad we're past the era of random CC on jobs and what your suggesting causes confusion the more jobs are added to the game.

---

Some of the things I valued about this game's diversity were present as recently as Stormblood. Some are still in the game technically (you can still play T7 on min ilvl and need to heavy/bind an add, for example). If that counts as another game, so be it. It's the direction the game is heading, consistently, that worries me. Because I've seen other games do similar things before, and it didn't end well.

I will indeed leave this game when it's blatantly nothing more than a DPS rat-race of shallow depth, but we aren't there quite yet. If I truly wanted to play a different game, I wouldn't be here spending this much time on a forum post. I still have FF11, for as much time as it has left, but I do like FF14 too.

As to more jobs being harder to balance, maybe if they can't make jobs that are both unique and balanced, they shouldn't keep making more jobs? Alas, it's easier to sell someone on something new than improving the old, even if the end quality of the latter turns out higher.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Some of the things I valued about this game's diversity were present as recently as Stormblood. Some are still in the game technically (you can still play T7 on min ilvl and need to heavy/bind an add, for example). If that counts as another game, so be it. It's the direction the game is heading, consistently, that worries me. Because I've seen other games do similar things before, and it didn't end well.

I will indeed leave this game when it's blatantly nothing more than a DPS rat-race of shallow depth, but we aren't there quite yet. If I truly wanted to play a different game, I wouldn't be here spending this much time on a forum post. I still have FF11, for as much time as it has left, but I do like FF14 too.

As to more jobs being harder to balance, maybe if they can't make jobs that are both unique and balanced, they shouldn't keep making more jobs? Alas, it's easier to sell someone on something new than improving the old, even if the end quality of the latter turns out higher.

---

I think he means to spread CC across not to balance.

They’ve never rly had a issue with balance and get numbers sorted quickly. But I don’t think you could come up with unique CC for every job without duplicating so we’d become homogenised in CC and a over-abundance of CC is just as bad as a lack of CC.

I'd be perfectly happy if they put a limit on how many verraises we can perform in a given time if it means we don't get taxed like hell for it. RDM dps right now is horrible, so horrible I've given up on it beyond anything other than soloing or doing hunts. It's not worth playing the job seriously anymore and it's very depressing for me but this is what SE wants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geekgirl101

I'd be perfectly happy if they put a limit on how many verraises we can perform in a given time if it means we don't get taxed like hell for it. RDM dps right now is horrible, so horrible I've given up on it beyond anything other than soloing or doing hunts. It's not worth playing the job seriously anymore and it's very depressing for me but this is what SE wants.

---

Tbh given in SB our tax for it was 1100 and in this expansion it’s 2700, I’m not sure if we are intentionally this nerfed because of verraise or this was a oversight.

We could be just looking at awaiting 5.08 or 5.1 and while they haven’t said anything on RDM they didn’t mention anyone on buffs/nerfs only the jobs they feel they need to change gameplay wise.

Then what other reason is RDM being so heavily hit, dualcast vercures? Make them not dualcastable then. I can't think of any other reasons why RDM is being taxed so heavily since we had a lot of utilities taken from us such as erase, mana-shift, apocatastasis, we're only left with 2 "white" abilities and we're still nerfed to oblivion in the DPS section. How BLMs are still jealous of us after we've lost so much baffles me, but I will be happy to have verraise either limited or removed altogether than see my job be thrown in the gutter as one of the worst caster DPS classes in the game whilst BLM gets all the attention. I'm struggling to hold back the tears because my most favourite job is dying out and has become worthless and SE doesn't seem to think it needs addressing and is turning a blind eye to it.

Personally I'm blaming a fair amount of this on how ShB raids are designed as well as how flawed the jobs are. They're hyper-tuned for expert players with barely any breathing space between using abilities and dodging mechanics, and as such means unless you're one of the top 4 DPS classes in the game you'll be the first one to blame if you don't beat the enrage and won't get accepted into the more difficult content. Some raid groups would be ok with taking RDM, NIN and SMN in their current state if it wasn't for the demand in needing to do x amount of DPS in x amount of time, so when raid groups fail to beat the enrage after a flawless run they're gonna turn to the RDM, NIN and SMN, blame them for being low DPS and replace them. I even see raid groups in PF with messages like "don't bring low DPS or kick" whilst only admitting BLM, MNK, DRG and SAM as DPS roles. This is exactly what SE said only a couple of years ago they were trying to avoid and why they would not add DPS parsers in the game. They have inadvertently created meta classes and discrimination against the more weaker classes.

@geekgirl101 so complaining about BLM being OP is not the way too go. It does not bring anything too the party LITERALLY NOTHING EXCEPT DAMAGE. If you have utility then there should be a tax for it. We can argue about how much but there should be a tax nonetheless. Your utility may not seem like it means anything but it does in the eyes of SE and a price has too be paid. BLM is exactly where it should be because now the performance of selfish DPS jobs have become all the more paramount. People will never be happy unless they delete selfish DPS jobs from the game and utility jobs should have the damage too outdo selfish DPS jobs plus buff the party. We have been down that road in SB...know what happened? Selfish DPS jobs were shelved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marianno

@geekgirl101 so complaining about BLM being OP is not the way too go. It does not bring anything too the party LITERALLY NOTHING EXCEPT DAMAGE. If you have utility then there should be a tax for it. We can argue about how much but there should be a tax nonetheless. Your utility may not seem like it means anything but it does in the eyes of SE and a price has too be paid. BLM is exactly where it should be because now the performance of selfish DPS jobs have become all the more paramount. People will never be happy unless they delete selfish DPS jobs from the game and utility jobs should have the damage too outdo selfish DPS jobs plus buff the party. We have been down that road in SB...know what happened? Selfish DPS jobs were shelved.

---

And now by your argument utility jobs are being shelved in favour of bringing selfish jobs just to avoid ever seeing the enrage. And yes, BLM is too OP by a huge amount and RDM has, like with NIN and SMN, literally become utter garbage!

Odd because I still see people playing all the jobs even the weak ones. They even do quite well on them too. The only thing I think really needs to happen to RDM is buffs in potency. At the rate SE is going, I don’t think you’ll get anything super significant. RDM fits perfectly with melee and embolden. BLM DOES NOT. BLM is only called OP because it finally has the damage to be truly considered a selfish DPS job. HA! In SB selfish DPS jobs did not have the DPS to truly be considered selfish DPS jobs. BLM is where it should be. If you want to do big damage, play a selfish DPS job. Or better yet...give up your utility. Since the latter is likely too never happen, RDM will simply have too deal with being lower than BLM. You cannot have the best of both worlds. There must be a price somewhere and if it comes from being low in the damage totem then so be it. The fact of the matter is that RDM HAS UTILITY AND BLM HAS NOTHING. THERE ARE NO MAGICAL BUFFS IN THE GAME AND IF YOU NERF BLM, THEN WHAT GOOD IS IT? There are melee buffs galore in this game. IF BLM HAS NO UTILITY THEN IT NEEDS DAMAGE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO GIVE TOO THE party. Like it or not, RDM is not going to share it’s utility because SE is not going too let that happen. In one of the live letters, Yoshi-P laughed at the idea of being asked to give BLM a raise. Whether you want too believe it or not REZ is utility by SE standards and you are taxed accordingly for having even if it’s not used. Tearing down BLM will net you nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marianno

Odd because I still see people playing all the jobs even the weak ones. They even do quite well on them too. The only thing I think really needs to happen to RDM is buffs in potency. At the rate SE is going, I don’t think you’ll get anything super significant. RDM fits perfectly with melee and embolden. BLM DOES NOT. BLM is only called OP because it finally has the damage to be truly considered a selfish DPS job. HA! In SB selfish DPS jobs did not have the DPS to truly be considered selfish DPS jobs. BLM is where it should be. If you want to do big damage, play a selfish DPS job. Or better yet...give up your utility. Since the latter is likely too never happen, RDM will simply have too deal with being lower than BLM. You cannot have the best of both worlds. There must be a price somewhere and if it comes from being low in the damage totem then so be it. The fact of the matter is that RDM HAS UTILITY AND BLM HAS NOTHING. THERE ARE NO MAGICAL BUFFS IN THE GAME AND IF YOU NERF BLM, THEN WHAT GOOD IS IT? There are melee buffs galore in this game. IF BLM HAS NO UTILITY THEN IT NEEDS DAMAGE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO GIVE TOO THE party. Like it or not, RDM is not going to share it’s utility because SE is not going too let that happen. In one of the live letters, Yoshi-P laughed at the idea of being asked to give BLM a raise. Whether you want too believe it or not REZ is utility by SE standards and you are taxed accordingly for having even if it’s not used. Tearing down BLM will net you nothing.

---

Just, go back and read all the page up to this point, they'll explain to you why what you're saying isn't true. Nobody here wants to tear down BLM, but are simply voicing our problems with RDM's performance and low contribution while disputing the onslaught of BLM that believe the caster balance is where it needs to be, even though BLM is 1600 dps higher than RDM on average in Eden gate savage. Thats twice as strong as it was in Alphascape where meta wise, BLM was still the meta pick alongside SMN. So in this instance, BLM just got way stronger than it needed to be and BLM players seem to forget that this is where they were when SMN was dominating. I suppose they're smelling their new found dominance too much to realize that the disparity between the 3 casters is ridiculous right now

What am I saying that’s wrong/untrue? RDM has utility, the chances of RDM being able to share that utility is likely to never happen, and REZ is considered utility whether we like or not, by SE’s standards and is a matter of debate among other things. BLM has nothing too give to the party except damage. Why would you want too take that away from the job? What good will it be? RDM does deserve potency buffs but hoping for anything super significant I feel like is bad in a way. Do not misunderstand me, I want RDM to get the potency buffs it needs to be competitive but at the rate SE is going, things will not be super significant in my opinion. I think SE should have done more for RDM at the start of ShB but that didn’t happen. Tearing down BLM does not solve the problem. Again, it’s highly likely that RDM will never be able to give up or shed its utility so it will have to deal with being lower than BLM on the DPS totem pole. I don’t like that REZ is counted as utility and it should not be such a high tax...but it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Just, go back and read all the page up to this point, they'll explain to you why what you're saying isn't true. Nobody here wants to tear down BLM, but are simply voicing our problems with RDM's performance and low contribution while disputing the onslaught of BLM that believe the caster balance is where it needs to be, even though BLM is 1600 dps higher than RDM on average in Eden gate savage. Thats twice as strong as it was in Alphascape where meta wise, BLM was still the meta pick alongside SMN. So in this instance, BLM just got way stronger than it needed to be and BLM players seem to forget that this is where they were when SMN was dominating. I suppose they're smelling their new found dominance too much to realize that the disparity between the 3 casters is ridiculous right now

---

I have been giving this some thought.

Would fixing some of Red Mage's (and others) playability issues result in enough positive gain?

There seems to be a common thread that the jobs are facing some heavy alignment issues that prior could be justified with the fabled 120s alignment burst windows. My words, no one elses, but that's the conspiracy diagram I'm working on.

You have mentioned this for Red Mage, some have mentioned it for Bard, Ninja is a cavalcade of issues, so on and so forth.

For example, I know you mentioned that Melee windows are unreliable for the Red Mage and another has mentioned Embolden doesn't line up well. Do you think this following list would result in satisfactory positive results:

1. Mana Gauge extended to 160
2. Manafication is +50/+50 instead of 'doubles current'
3. Embolden is 10s of +10%, 60s cooldown, 2 charges. [This one being a straight numerical buff]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I have been giving this some thought.

Would fixing some of Red Mage's (and others) playability issues result in enough positive gain?

There seems to be a common thread that the jobs are facing some heavy alignment issues that prior could be justified with the fabled 120s alignment burst windows. My words, no one elses, but that's the conspiracy diagram I'm working on.

You have mentioned this for Red Mage, some have mentioned it for Bard, Ninja is a cavalcade of issues, so on and so forth.

For example, I know you mentioned that Melee windows are unreliable for the Red Mage and another has mentioned Embolden doesn't line up well. Do you think this following list would result in satisfactory positive results:

1. Mana Gauge extended to 160
2. Manafication is +50/+50 instead of 'doubles current'
3. Embolden is 10s of +10%, 60s cooldown, 2 charges. [This one being a straight numerical buff]

---

appreciate the attempt at compromise however this is alot more difficult to discuss and idk if those adjustments might be the way. What i do know, is that RDM and SMN would just need to have their overall contribution increased to warrant the gap between them and BLM. (RDM more so than SMN) QoL can take the form as full on buffs and some of what you're suggesting cross that line. Keep in mind, the idea isn't that BLM shouldn't be a heavy hitter and doesn't deserve it's place in high optimization, the problem is that BLM is just curb stomping RDM and bullying SMN so much, it's bleeding into the areas where they are supposed to be better. SMN already heavily invalidates RDM do to offering a bastardized version of it's primary utility, while filling it's short comings enough for players to prefer it progression and clears.

Tl;dr BLM just needs to share niches, it can't be a viable option in prog if thats RDMs only niche because SMN challenges RDM on that front. The same holds true for RDM, RDM can't be a viable option for high optimization groups because thats BLM niche and SMN already challenges it on that front. currently, RDM is playing by those rules and isn't seeing any success in high speed optimization where as BLM is being a bit greedy and dominating RDM in recorded progression runs. This is the core problem right now that BLM faced prior to their buffs in SB, and RDM faced until the same point in patch 4,4

Give me your utility and we’ll call it even. This isn’t about smelling the dominance of anything. You want bigger numbers, give me your utility. As I stated before and I’ll say it again. This started when SE thought it was a good idea to give DPS jobs utility buffs to change how groups coordinate. Maybe making it so the buffs only affect the job who applies the buff and adjusting numbers from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marianno

Give me your utility and we’ll call it even. This isn’t about smelling the dominance of anything. You want bigger numbers, give me your utility. As I stated before and I’ll say it again. This started when SE thought it was a good idea to give DPS jobs utility buffs to change how groups coordinate. Maybe making it so the buffs only affect the job who applies the buff and adjusting numbers from there.

---

if you honestly believe the caster dps disparity right now is filled by Raises, Embolden, and Vercure or the Devotion. idk what to tell you. You value the utility way higher than the numbers point to. BLM is FAR stronger than RDM and SMN and, thats including the utility besides Raise and vercure. again BLM has 41% of all eden savage Titan caster clears while RDM has 20%. is that fair?

No it isn’t fair but all I am trying too say is that whether we like or not SE consider those too be utility. Though I cannot presume too know how they are thinking. The thinking behind what they consider utility and the tax is clearly not correct by any standard. It is their thinking that things are okay as RDM was not mentioned in this past live letter. RDM needs too be brought up with potency buffs and maybe change how the mana accumulation works but not at the expense of another job. Not sure if I am expressing what I want too say correctly. But that is the gist of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

What i do know, is that RDM and SMN would just need to have their overall contribution increased to warrant the gap between them and BLM.

---

I know it is hard to analyze, but the idea being that it doesn't exclude potency buffs, it just serves as an equalizer in some of the more frustrating aspects of being a caster. Having abundant overflow capacity for Mana means you could reserve a melee combo for movement where it allows, instead of having to stutter step or resort to VerScathe, or if stutter stepping is possible, more room to store more mana to prevent overflow if a raid window is opening up.

Practically speaking, this is a 'neutral' change in terms of potential DPS, but should be a notable uptick in terms of practical DPS - Which is what the Shadowbringers changes largely did for Black Mage, with the exception of Despair and even more enhanced Enochian, which is where a fair amount of its damage potential increase came from.

Manafication is largely a change to let Red Mage -get it on- like everyone else does at the start, however with this mind it would work better as a +80/80 in the 160 gauge state.

And Embolden, aside from being a straight buff, also allows the Red Mage to more readily capitalize on its own windows with more frequent use and a duration that matches (10.5 total seconds for a melee combo, though the damage is done by 8.0, so it all gets the 10% increase).

I think this serves to not only close to gap but make playing a Red Mage 'feel' better. From a hard RDPS standpoint, the Embolden changes alone should increase the "RDPS given" value by nearly double by virtue of no more decay and affecting casters, while having more individual control over Red Mage's outgoing damage and pacing should make reaching the maximum less RNG dependent. Affecting casters also means you don't have this weird case where the only two caster set up you would want auto excludes red mages.

Regarding Summoner, I've got too much "I want to change everything about it" to offer a bandaid fix, but moving Egi Assaults to the GCD and greatly increasing their potency would be the path I'd take, as well as completely turning pets into visuals and sourcing their attacks from the Summoner (AKA - no more ghosting attacks)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geekgirl101

Personally I'm blaming a fair amount of this on how ShB raids are designed as well as how flawed the jobs are. They're hyper-tuned for expert players with barely any breathing space between using abilities and dodging mechanics, and as such means unless you're one of the top 4 DPS classes in the game you'll be the first one to blame if you don't beat the enrage and won't get accepted into the more difficult content. Some raid groups would be ok with taking RDM, NIN and SMN in their current state if it wasn't for the demand in needing to do x amount of DPS in x amount of time, so when raid groups fail to beat the enrage after a flawless run they're gonna turn to the RDM, NIN and SMN, blame them for being low DPS and replace them. I even see raid groups in PF with messages like "don't bring low DPS or kick" whilst only admitting BLM, MNK, DRG and SAM as DPS roles. This is exactly what SE said only a couple of years ago they were trying to avoid and why they would not add DPS parsers in the game. They have inadvertently created meta classes and discrimination against the more weaker classes.

---

So, my previous posts should make it clear that I'm not a fan of SE's encounter design or tunneled focus on DPS checks as the defacto pass-fail assessment.

But keep in mind, overall, this is one of the easier tiers in the lifespan of this game, contested only by early Delta and Alphascape. Midas Savage and Ultimate are fights designed and tuned to the elite of the playerbase; Creator Savage, and all tiers based on it including Eden's Gate by their own admission, specifically chose to make Savage more accessible. The only thing odd about Eden is that the major spike in required rDPS is between 1 and 2, and not 2 and 3 like most tiers Creator and later.

SE's intended goal with this is likely that the best groups can clear at min-ilvl, and everyone else catches up later as gear gives them a leg up. I don't think this is bad, necessarily, except that without other types of challenge being stressed in fights groups will hit Enrage early and then get stuck there. If progression were slower because fights were harder in other ways, and people thus were more geared by the time they hit a given enrage, this might be less of an issue. Of course, it's variable depending on player skill, and I'm not sure that's something SE can take into account with much granularity without making still more difficulty tiers past normal, EX, Savage, Ultimate, which I don't think is on the table. Compressing difficulty level further is not something I want to see either; if Savage were tuned to a level more akin to EX, that would leave an Ultimate fight per YEAR as the only content made with high level players in mind.

So long as DPS checks remain the principle challenge in EX+ content, this issue will only get worse. Easier fights, harder enrages. There are plenty of other ways to add challenge to fights besides tight enrages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

BLM just needs to share niches, it can't be a viable option in prog if thats RDMs only niche because SMN challenges RDM on that front. The same holds true for RDM, RDM can't be a viable option for high optimization groups because thats BLM niche and SMN already challenges it on that front. currently, RDM is playing by those rules and isn't seeing any success in high speed optimization where as BLM is being a bit greedy and dominating RDM in recorded progression runs. This is the core problem right now that BLM faced prior to their buffs in SB, and RDM faced until the same point in patch 4,4

---

To me, the solution there is actually make RDM effective in the prog role. Give them support abilities that actually keep the party ALIVE without tanking the RDM's own DPS, because weakness is too big a detriment to make Raise the cornerstone of their support.

Then, for optimization, put RDM's raw casting DPS significantly behind BLM as it is now, and let the gap be filled with proper timing of melee combo, giving RDM decent auto-attacks so they're rewarded for maintaining "uptime" in a similar manner to a melee, and making rDPS buffs (Embolden, maybe the Reflect type defensive I and others have recommended) better. Gives things for a RDM skill-gap, and, imo, optimally in a very good party that lines up buffs and feeds a cannon like a BLM supports should exceed selfish in rDPS. Because they can only GET there when working with the huge pDPS of a cannon. Damage raising buffs are pointless in my opinion if they don't lead to an overall increase in partywide DPS used properly.

The intended party DPS composition would become 1 Ranged, 1 Caster, 1 Melee, 1 Cannon, where 0-1 of the non-cannon slots could also be cannons depending on party composition (what are the tanks and healers?) and preference.

The problem this runs into is the "in-betweeners": SUM, BRD, maybe MNK if it stops being superior to SAM as a selfish DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

You have mentioned this for Red Mage, some have mentioned it for Bard, Ninja is a cavalcade of issues, so on and so forth.

For example, I know you mentioned that Melee windows are unreliable for the Red Mage and another has mentioned Embolden doesn't line up well. Do you think this following list would result in satisfactory positive results:

1. Mana Gauge extended to 160
2. Manafication is +50/+50 instead of 'doubles current'
3. Embolden is 10s of +10%, 60s cooldown, 2 charges. [This one being a straight numerical buff]

---

This'd likely be a good first step to take. Mana gauge extension also serves to be allowed to save your burst for a better position, Manafication works better in the 160 scenario since you won't be waiting for natural 80/80 to turn into 160/160, and the embolden is a much needed straight buff, and with charges it can much more easily line up with any group.

In some aspects, it'd make some things overall more accessible and easier, yet I feel like in other aspects such a change would make the gameplay a bit deeper, e.g. wait for 133/153 to get 2 combos off (or differently when combined with manafication) while waiting for a burst phase to make full use of it, or throw it quicker? That could depend on the party composition in question.

There'd be both pdps and rdps buff in this, but it wouldn't immediately encroach on BLM's territory, and it's fine if smaller steps are taken towards an end result that is more satisfactory, with the gap being closed but not so much as to kill BLM's niche, which is what I've been saying all along...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kajv95

There'd be both pdps and rdps buff in this, but it wouldn't immediately encroach on BLM's territory, and it's fine if smaller steps are taken towards an end result that is more satisfactory, with the gap being closed but not so much as to kill BLM's niche, which is what I've been saying all along...

---

The biggest reason it wouldn't 'encroach' on Black Mage is that we'd be removing this hostile caster relationship that exists with Embolden being a physical only booster. Allowing them to boost magic damage isn't only a general buff, but removes the unnecessary barrier that naturally existed - The Red mage -doesn't want other casters-, and other casters -don't want a red mage-.

This comes back to another post that wasn't expanded enough upon, and it's that having a fourth DPS role for the 'Cannons' would add another lever. Where you can dump Black Mage, Samurai, and Machinist, tune them in their void there, and add additional levers for tuning. In this regard you could completely tune the out-of-box damage between every DPS role to be the same.

This not only simplifies a few matters (Ninja - Dragoon - Monk no longer have to encroach on Samurai in their tuning, same with Bard/Dancer and Machinist, and Summoner/Red Mage and Black mage), but our Full House party bonus can be increased to better encourage a 4 set without crippling a 3 set. You can increase the buffing capabilities of the 3 other roles, and encourage bringing the "Cannon" by making it so they -benefit more-.

This satisfies the greater RDPS, lower PDPS dynamic that's been argued for, but isn't currently possible, since you'd be A) A Subpar support job outside 8 mans and B) there's not enough a difference between the jobs in a more acceptable balance state for Samurai/Black Mage / Machinist to be desirable.

If Black Mage gets twice the benefit from buffs brought by a team, their 'RDPS' contribution is exactly the same as out of box, but their PDPS scales exponentially which feeds back into increasing the "RDPS" value of the supporters. The lack of raise is no longer an issue - Machinist and Samurai also don't have it, and if you're a good cannon, it won't matter what Cannon you play (Well in theory at least) - You have a place.

But I doubt we'll see that happen. Potency buffs for erebody!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Lets give BLM even MORE Damage with more potential utility buffs so they maintain their supreme DPS.
The thought of another class competing for numbers will make the BLM feel inferior if they deal less than others in the party.

---

Why not share the spotlight, and let everyone compete? Or is there a underlying fear of being left out because they simply arent performing good enough, and need an extra buffer to make sure they always have spot no matter how bad they play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Why not share the spotlight, and let everyone compete? Or is there a underlying fear of being left out because they simply arent performing good enough, and need an extra buffer to make sure they always have spot no matter how bad they play?

---

Did you literally just write your own text into a quote box so you could create this strawman?

Just tl;dr'ed the core of everything that has been said. No strawman here, just simplifying, a summary if you will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Just tl;dr'ed the core of everything that has been said. No strawman here, just simplifying, a summary if you will.

---

Let me help you. I'll use small words.

"IF BLACK MAGE IS 12k, THEN SO IS NINJA."

"IF NINJA GIVES 3% MORE RDPS, IT GIVES THE BLACK MAGE 6%"

"BLACK MAGE RDPS: 12,000"

"NINJA RDPS: 12,720"

Needs tuning, but if you took more than a minute to digest, that's the outcome you should have come to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let me help you. I'll use small words.

"IF BLACK MAGE IS 12k, THEN SO IS NINJA."

"IF NINJA GIVES 3% MORE RDPS, IT GIVES THE BLACK MAGE 6%"

"BLACK MAGE RDPS: 12,000"

"NINJA RDPS: 12,720"

Needs tuning, but if you took more than a minute to digest, that's the outcome you should have come to.

---

Ah, then I apolegize for miss-reading. The end result does seem fair if thats how they do it. Should satisfy everyone involved.

And this is exactly the point I have been trying to get accross for god knows how long. the small words you just wrote.
But apparently that has been shot down so much by so many. Especially SAM BLM and MNK mains.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Ah, then I apolegize for miss-reading. The end result does seem fair if thats how they do it. Should satisfy everyone involved.

And this is exactly the point I have been trying to get accross for god knows how long. the small words you just wrote.
But apparently that has been shot down so much by so many. Especially SAM BLM and MNK mains.

---

Our current system really doesn't support it, which is why there's a whole blurb of set up.

In our current system, to maintain that sort of parity means the RDPS bringers are severely lower on PDPS (and suffer in other parts of the game) or our PDPS aren't bringing anything worthwhile (And thus you could just use 4 RDPS and get a greater result)

That's my opinion at least. I think we need some structural change to really have that be an equitable set up, I dont' claim to speak for the others.