[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

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Originally Posted by Sammix87

Just jumping in to add that my friend plays the Japanese version and according to him Minfillia and Thancred's relationship is shown as being an older brother and younger sister type scenario. I think the English translation often messes that up.

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As someone who plays using the Japanese, this is very true.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

I mean, they could have brought her back for certain. I'm not denying that fact, but what would be the point other than bringing back a character? What greater thematic point would they be making with her resurrection, or what narrative purpose would it serve? What would be the resurrected Minfilia's new role in the story?

I'm very excited to hear the answer! This sort of theorycrafting is super enjoyable to me!

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I am taking pause on this topic to finish my MSQ, felt like I dont have enough ground to stand on to actually make some theories or even continue debating. Will respond to this soon though, as well as to some other messages that appeared here. Will be another wall of text lol.

The relationship between Thancred and Minfilia was of father and daughter. An absentee father, but a father none the less. I encourage you to watch the 1.0 Ul'dah story cutscenes. Golden Sacrifices is still my favorite scene in this game.

I posted this on reddit a few days back, but I will post it here.

I have been a wreck since our last (final?) talk with Minfilia. I know a fair amount of people don't care for her, but I did. I dislike how there was always a reason we couldn't help her. In 1.0 Thancred and I failed to save her father. In the end of ARR, she gets swept away by Hydaelyn. In Heavensward she travels to the first to save it, leaving with a promise to return once she found a way to do so. In Shadowbringers, we find she halted the flood of light, only to constantly die and be reborn in a never ending cycle. And once we bring her latest incarnation to the very spot it all began, she once again gives her all to save a beaten down and terrified child.

I don't begrudge Ryne for wanting the strength she never had, but I see where Thancred was coming from because I felt the same way. Only I didn't find closure. I just found more regret because once again Minfilia was taken away from us.

I know she is gone. But I desperately want to find a way to bring her back. I want her to keep that promise.


I have a theory, as I am sure we all have a few, that Hydaelyn is still in possession of Minfilia. I understand she fused with Ryne, however Emet-Selk makes a point of mentioning that Hydaelyn works by halving anything she strikes, and even makes a point of it by pointing to Ryne and simulating what that would be like. Would it not work by extension if we were to say be attacked by "Warriors of Light"? Elidibus makes the point that he will use such warriors to kill the scions. Perhaps instead of killing us, they will strike us using a blade of light. Reducing ourselves into two forms. One group stays on the First, the other goes back to the source. I may be wrong and this is just wish fulfillment on my behalf.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

The relationship between Thancred and Minfilia was of father and daughter. An absentee father, but a father none the less.

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Not untrue, though I think Thancred always preferred to view himself as more of an older brother than a father. ^_~

Man, talking about Minfilia so much is making me so sad. I loved her so much. The only character I've enjoyed as much as Minfilia is Feo Ul.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

I have been a wreck since our last (final?) talk with Minfilia. I know a fair amount of people don't care for her, but I did. I dislike how there was always a reason we couldn't help her.
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I don't begrudge Ryne for wanting the strength she never had, but I see where Thancred was coming from because I felt the same way. Only I didn't find closure. I just found more regret because once again Minfilia was taken away from us.

I know she is gone. But I desperately want to find a way to bring her back. I want her to keep that promise.

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I feel sorry about Minfilia as well. She had everything taken away from her - her parents, her body, her life. She was used as a tool both in terms of lore (as a figurehead of the Scions, the Word of the Mother and the Oracle of Light) and in terms of writing (for Thankred's character development). The only time I've been angry with Hydaelyn was when I first saw Minfilia transformed into the Word of the Mother. I know Minfilia agreed to it but it was still creepy. At least Ryne is trying to be her own person and live her life as best as a girl her age can.

So first of all I want to say thank you to all of you whos been participating in this conversation. I actually managed to turn it into a relatively civil discussion with people on both sides. This pleases me. I know many of you dont share my point of view on this but what matters most is that we share our opinions on it. Means we are concerned.

And I just finished my MSQ and must say, Im deeply sorry for Emet that his plan got ruined by almighty WoL. Really grew fond of this character (and Ascians in this expansion in principle). Wished that his strike at Ryne would be deadly but of course not, cycle of Disney-like deaths continued (still dont understand why the fek they decide to bring Yshtola back from the soulstream again. Ah, yes, shes a "Trust" NPC now...).

But to finally answer some posts now.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

I'm very excited to hear the answer! This sort of theorycrafting is super enjoyable to me!

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I was never really good at any sort of theories, maybe because I think its really pointless to speculate and invent "unexpected" moves and "what if" scenarios. It will change nothing and if they decided long ago that they will introduce a new girl to us which will absorb our old Minfilia and that it will even reflect on a cosmic-scale conflict, no amount of forum whines will be enough to make them change their way. But lets try to speculate if you want it that much.

So firstly, about "technical" aspects. How could they bring her back and what body would she have. Our gang (WoL, Alphi and the others) were incomplete transports, they left their bodies behind. The Exarch explains that they are just souls. Souls that you can see, feel and touch, and who themselves can see, feel and touch. Like their bodies are just aetheric reconstructions that aren't really actually there. It werent stated that Exarch can only do this with souls from Source but not from other shards/universes. So when our gang got faced with a problem of Lightwardens, knowing full well that Minfilia were there ages ago and probably have some knowledge/powers that can be handy when attempting to battle them, they could ask Exarch to try and summon her. You might say that: "nah, shes a vessel of Hydaelyn, its not the same". But it was she who stated it herself that shes storing powers in her that needed for her resurrection, she just dont want to use them right now. And besides she has been resurrecting herself countless times before, just using bodies of girls as a container. So its not that being a vessel can screw up with her ability to resurrect. Hence why Exarch idea comes to mind, if he can summon the souls all across worlds, not incomplete summons but still, why not ask him to do it for Minfilia? Yes, its not tying well with current plot about generations of Minfilias before, completely new girl and Minfilia's wish to give her power over her own life but thats speculations are for, right? They just didnt want to give Minfilia new chance but we will speak about it later.

Now that we stated that there could be a way of returning her without introducing this foul plot, lets talk about your "narrative purpose" and what would be the new role of Minfilia. For the role, I already mentioned that she could take the same role as Ryne, helping us fight Lightwardens, take care of us when we fall victim to surplus of Light inside us, say inspirational speeches idk. As for your "greater thematic point" which you are so determined on defending, I must ask you a counterquestion, why you need to kill a character in order to live up for your greater thematic point? Its really depressing how many people think that "killing characters" is the ultimate in how to write a good story. What were the greater thematic point of killing Papalymo? Cuz "there were no other way"? To bring tear to our eyes and to steel Lyse up? What were the reason behind killing Ysayle? I can go on and on but the thing is, there can be OTHER ways of securing your grand thematic plots rather then killing a character to drive that plot further. Good example is Gosetsu and Yotsuyu's story, they could kill Yotsuyu for good and make that only Gosetsu gets out of that rubble alive but no, they brought them all back in order to show us a great story, beautiful development of relationships between Gosetsu and Yotsuyu and as a whole made us feel for their character. Yes, they only brought her back to kill her again but thats didnt change how awesome her story was and thats what could be done with Minfilia! You could go all in for your chosen line of plot, introduce Ryne, microcosm of Ascians and Shards etc. But instead of killing Minfilia for good, give her a chance to redeem herself. Give her a chance to finally do something, she lived a screwed up life, her father being killed in a public accident, friends and allies being cut down as she is kidnapped, she got essentially abducted by and turned into an avatar of a god, being sent to another dimension and living 100 years as basically a body hopping ghost. And after all that she still didnt even earn herself a proper place in a story. Make her appear along with Ryne, make it that Ryne isnt a next incarnation of Minfilia generation but a separate person who trying to fight sin eaters for all she can. Or if you want to retain this generation thing, make them a line of warriors who kept killing sin eaters whilst dying in battle. I know these are some really rough and poor speculations but you wanted them and I cant just take solid lines out of my head easily. But this way you could have Minfilia at least finally do something, finally be meaningful. She could take Ryne's role in tracking down Lightwardens and if you want to stay with this microcosm plot, let Minfilia give her life when trying to save us from Light surplus or let her merge with Ryne like it were planned to have Ryne become more powerful but give Minfilia a chance! Give her a Yotsuyu kind of plot! Give her a chance to say goodbye words to Thancred after he went from one edge of the world to another just in attempt to save her. Like what the hell! They all spoke so highly about her "lagacy" but what legacy? Only legacy they gave her is hate legacy, hate about her writing, her about her looks, hate about how she was a fetch questgiver. Theres no good legacy to carry on and she will be remembered as "that annoying girl from ARR who died in Shadowbringers". Thats not the legacy I wished for her...

So like I said, Im not really into theorycrafting and I doubt my pity attempts at creating some were enough to impress any of you. But the point of them were not to impress, but to rather show that there were a ways of returning her into the story, whilst keeping your greater theme and microcosm. They are just raw and unpolished but I believe that if mere me could come up with them, so could almighty SE.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

The issue is you're trying to defend her virtue like she's an actual person.

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Im quite confused here. Like, isn't that what the author of any media should strive for when he's writing a character: to make his writers feel like his characters are real, make us feel for them like we would feel for a real person? If you dont have that feeling then you have a poor written characters which failed to deliver. Thats an axiom. So I really cant understand what you're trying to say here, you blaming me for caring and feeling for a fiction character? Well yes, I often do get quite attached to a character I like and I often empathize with them when they putted into unfortunate situatuons. Thats absolutely normal and I think without that feeling you cant enjoy any sort of story. So dont get you here.

Okay, about Princess Plot-Device now. For me Ryne now is a COMPLETE copy of Minfilia and I can provide something to back me up on this. So what we get to know first time we learn about that new girl. She got captured by Vauthry, Thancred saved her 3 years ago. They travelled a bit then something happened and she got captured again. Sounds familiar? Okay, moving on. We save her, she starts to travel with us, kept whining about how useless she is and how she wished that she would die and old Minfilia will take her place. Still not familiar enough? Well, heres this then. Straight after Ryne got her new powers, it was a sudden poof from her out of the story. Since then things that shes doing are offscreen, she tracks new Lightwarden offscreen, she helps our hero supress Light offscreen (think only time it was showed is at the end battle with Emet). Basically started to appear much less in cutscenes after that. Familiar now? Yeah, the only difference between Ryne and Minfilia is that Ryne is adorable, cute and she fights with us. Yeah, duh. Even that ability of tracking is completely the same kind of utility that Minfilia used when she helped us FIGHT PRIMALS! Her every discovery were done offscreen but nonetheless was very useful. Everything Ryne did could be done by Minfilia like I explained above. So you are telling me they replaced one Princess Peach with another? Or what other redeeming features she has depsite being cute, shy, nice to everyone, having a tragedy in her life. What? How is she more interesting than Minfilia?

Maybe because again, its all tied well together into this grand plot of microcosm so you all get an impression of a well-written character. Oh yeah, and she helped in "progression" of Thancred. More like regression for me but what the heck.

So I will never agree that Ryne is a better variant of Minfilia or a better character, shes just a more polished copy. A copy and a poor way out of their own screw up.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

That doesn't mean she was killed off because of player hatred. Unless someone can find the source of that?

Her ARR outfit didn't look like anything that was part of the realm we were in

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There will be no proof because no such proof can exist. Developers will never admit that it were their fault, their poor writing of Minfilia that caused so much hate being thrown at her. They would never outright say: "yes, we sorta screwed up here". There are only two ways for them, getting rid of a character who got a lot of hate and on which they quite frankly failed or try to fix their mistakes by redeeming Minfilia into the story. Of course the took the easy way out. Everybody would. Doesnt mean Im going to stop blaming them for it. Its not Minfilia who deserved all this flak but only them.

And again, as about her outfit I thought the same that its very unapropriate for Scions leader to be dressed like this. But at the same time it was mentioned that shes has Ala Mhigan roots and we didnt know much about Ala Mhigo back then. I thought its their tribe clothes or something and shes just representing it. Guess you should say thanks that they didnt introduce a Thavnairian person into story lol.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

her role was one where we wouldn't get to see a lot of it because it'd be boring to watch

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This. I mentioned this in some of my previous posts as well: bureaucracy and politics are boring. Would they provide us with a cutscene every time Minfilia go and do some errands, negotiations, political affairs, ARR plot time would stretch beyond belief. It would be hours of cutscenes. So they did the right thing, they replaced it with action and fights while making Minfilia work offscreen, STILL providing us with lines about how hard shes working for the common good and how hard and next to impossible it would be to get this far without her. Im still confused why people cant wrap their head around this common "how you write a story in videogame" thing.

P.S. Oh and I also wanted to say that I rewatched some of the cutscenes before writing this and noticed that in Amh Araeng after that Thancred vs Ranjit battle, he get collapsed on a ground and started to mumble some things into the sky, adressing Minfilia. And in the end of his speech there were clearly "i love you" coming from him. I know you can argue if it still was a manifestation of his family feelings but come on, really? At such climax point? No way.

Just started doing Eden after a long craft spree lol, can you guys tell me what is plot about cuz Ive been skipping it because of Ryne -- hate her lol. Maybe it has some plot about Minfilia cuz I heard Eden was first of Eaters Minfilia defeeated or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Just started doing Eden after a long craft spree lol, can you guys tell me what is plot about cuz Ive been skipping it because of Ryne -- hate her lol. Maybe it has some plot about Minfilia cuz I heard Eden was first of Eaters Minfilia defeeated or something like that.

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If you're not interested in reading your quest journal or see the cutscenes, will you really be interested in reading an explanation? I don't care if you skip the cutscene, but you really shouldn't ask that if you can't bother..

Antoine Lenheim: Can you tell me the plotline for Eden?

Lore Forum: Well, I suppose...

AL: The expurgated version.

LF: The EXPURGATED version of the Eden plotline???

AL: The one without Ryne in it!

LF: The one without Ryne - she's a standard Shadowbringers character! She's in all the plotlines!

AL: Well, i don't like her. She's a whiny brat!

LF: All right! I'll remove her! *RIIIIP* Anyone else you don't like?!?

AL: I don't like Urianger. He's a pompous blowhard.

LF: Urianger! Right! Let's see, Urianger - there! *RIIIIP* Any others????

AL: Thancred?

LF: Right! Thancred, Thancred, Thancred - here we are! *RIIIIP* There you are! NO Ryne, NO Urianger, NO Thancred! There's your plotline!

AL: I can't read that, it's got no characters in it!

LF: *Sputters incoherently*

Apologies to Monty Python...

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

There will be no proof because no such proof can exist. Developers will never admit that it were their fault, their poor writing of Minfilia that caused so much hate being thrown at her. They would never outright say: "yes, we sorta screwed up here". There are only two ways for them, getting rid of a character who got a lot of hate and on which they quite frankly failed or try to fix their mistakes by redeeming Minfilia into the story. Of course the took the easy way out. Everybody would. Doesnt mean Im going to stop blaming them for it. Its not Minfilia who deserved all this flak but only them.

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That's a lie and a half since Developers have readily admitted other faults before.

Cough....

And to another degree this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0yQKI7Yw4

So not buying that at all since those are even larger screw ups. Don't try to conspiracy theory this pls.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

If you're not interested in reading your quest journal or see the cutscenes, will you really be interested in reading an explanation? I don't care if you skip the cutscene, but you really shouldn't ask that if you can't bother..

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I was pretty interested in the Eden's plotline since it was mentioned that it will shed some light on Minfilia in the past and her doings. What got me off is that Ryne has taken a major part in it and since my hatred for her is yet to be extinguished, I decided to skip all Eden cutscenes just like I did in msq. It does not mean Im not interested in it, I still am, I just didnt want to watch cutscenes, thats all. Havent checked journal yet maybe because they commonly do not write much there or even nothing at all. Still I think I should do it, thanks for the advice. But yeah, would love to hear more thorough explanation also.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

That's a lie and a half since Developers have readily admitted other faults before.

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Im not talking about other faults, Im talking about this exact Minfilia screw up. And by your over-confident tone I assume that you have a proof about them accepting their mistakes with writing of Minfilia?

I'm sorry, again your reasoning doesn't gel up and at this point you're just shifting goal posts.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

I was pretty interested in the Eden's plotline since it was mentioned that it will shed some light on Minfilia in the past and her doings. What got me off is that Ryne has taken a major part in it and since my hatred for her is yet to be extinguished, I decided to skip all Eden cutscenes just like I did in msq. It does not mean Im not interested in it, I still am, I just didnt want to watch cutscenes, thats all. Havent checked journal yet maybe because they commonly do not write much there or even nothing at all. Still I think I should do it, thanks for the advice. But yeah, would love to hear more thorough explanation also

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Hating one character is not a good reason to skip the cutscenes and dialogue, tbh, especially considering how much interest in the story you claim to have. I didn't like Moenbryda, I still watched those cutscenes. I didn't like that bastard brother of Yotsuyu's, I still watched those cutscenes. I *initially* didn't like Thancred (forgive me for my sins, I have long since learned) but I still watched any cutscene with him. Basically speaking, if you're interested in the story, you won't skip just because one character you don't like is involved. Why? *Because they are a part of the story, and in this case a particularly key part of the story*

I don't think that Ryne is necessarily them reacting to criticism about Minfilia.

It fits in well with the Amarot conflict. You have a similar situation. Either the old Minfilia can return or the new Minfilia can flourish, but not both. At first Thancred wants to restore 'his' Minfilia at the expense of Ryne, but eventually grows to embrace Ryne and let go of Minfilia.

A foil to Emet-Selch who cannot let go of his old world and despite trying to bond with mortals, cannot bring himself to accept the current world and wants to sacrifice it to restore the old.

So it feels to me like there's more going on here than a simple 'oh crap we messed up with Minfilia, let's make a new one.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

I was pretty interested in the Eden's plotline since it was mentioned that it will shed some light on Minfilia in the past and her doings. What got me off is that Ryne has taken a major part in it and since my hatred for her is yet to be extinguished, I decided to skip all Eden cutscenes just like I did in msq. It does not mean Im not interested in it, I still am, I just didnt want to watch cutscenes, thats all. Havent checked journal yet maybe because they commonly do not write much there or even nothing at all. Still I think I should do it, thanks for the advice. But yeah, would love to hear more thorough explanation also.

Im not talking about other faults, Im talking about this exact Minfilia screw up. And by your over-confident tone I assume that you have a proof about them accepting their mistakes with writing of Minfilia?

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If you skip the cutscenes it means you have no interest in the story at all. As the story is in the cutscenes. If all it took was one character performing a very in character act that lead to their demise to get you to dump the entire rest of the MSQ and dump the raid storyline then honestly you were not interested in the story to begin with. You were invested in one character and only went through the cutscenes before that moment because you wanted to see the one character you were invested in again.

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She was no more meant to fight than Tataru was and having her not participate in fighting was completely appropriate.

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You're mistaking a comment about lack of something for a statement about how they should have done that thing. That is not what was said or implied. The quote you are referencing was regarding her lack of contribution in any way, including battle. Nobody said Minfilia should have fought or expected her to be a fighter - but saying she didn't (when mentioning total lack of contribution outside of invisible matters) is no less a fact. The point is she was seemingly designed to contribute next to nothing outside of dialogue or quest-giving. This is a fault of the writers/developers for not adding more to her, but is no less true when compared to practically any other supporting Scion.

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they utilized her quite well throughout ARR

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She was there to be a leader/diplomat (MSQ wise), but this was handled in a manner where she was devoid of this 80% of the time and was there primarily to be the main Scion quest giver. Her role was never investigated to any noticeable degree, leaving you with little else other than a Princess Peach giving you quests unless they just happened to be in a cutscene that might involve actually talking to other people (which is about the extent of her usage), so no, she was NOT utilized well in ARR. Many will argue she was not utilized whatsoever outside of her being captured to further the plot. Twice. Which is just more proof of poor utilization. Compare it to almost any other Scion and the difference is noticeable. Even Alisaie, who was at her least prominent stage in ARR.

I like Minfilia and always have, but that doesn't change the fact that the only thing I will ever remember about her in ARR is that all meetings with her would involve being given information/quests, at a point in the game that is absolutely panned for being wall-to-wall filler quests, and that's it. The only exception is the ARR ending in Uldah, which tried to give all Scions (even Minfilia) something to do.

You can compare this to Urianger if you wish, but the huge difference is that Urianger is a FAR more fleshed character who has been a regular contributor through the expansions. Minfilia was not. Do not assume that the obnoxious trek to the Rising Stones on a regular basis is a detriment only to Minfilia. It wouldn't matter who you had to do it for - nobody liked that - but that does not make her comparable to Urianger just because he was put in that same position for a spell, because he was a far more fleshed character actually doing things, and often visited in relation to the Primal quests (i.e. unlocking content).

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She was also only captured twice in all of 2.0-2.x. I won't say she was handled perfectly, but there was nothing hate-worthy in how she was handled.

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If that were true, you wouldn't be a minority trying to claim such. Again, it is not that people dislike 'Minfilia', it is the fact that she was undoubtedly the WORST handled Scion by a country mile. Trying to claim she was handled well in any capacity is madness at this point. Even Moenbryda (despite her brief screen-time) was far more memorable compared to Minfilia. Minfilia was clearly designed to be an important figure, yet I wager a vast majority of stalwart FFXIV players vaguely remember much about her other than the meme-worthy things already mentioned, at least until her cameo in HSW.

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Despite the jokes about "Pray return to the waking sands," I never got the impression that anyone actually hated anything about her aside from the location of the Waking Sands, which again, is more problematic with Urianger than with Minfilia.

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See above. The location is just one aspect. As we've already said, Minfilia herself was a friendly and likeable character - handled in a completely unengaging way. When heading to the Waking Sands to meet Urianger, it was almost always to push forward a quest related to Primals/Content, which is infinitely better than being sent there for more fetch-quests that pad the MSQ play-time, with a hefty chunk of them being given through Minfilia.

You should not feel bad for liking a character (no matter what other people's opinions of them might be), but you'll have a hard time trying to convince people that Minfilia was either a) handled well at any point or b) critique about her handling is 'unjust'. It is not, and I say that as someone who never had a problem with her. The vast majority of criticism people have tirelessly supplied over the last few pages are, as far as I'm concerned, very accurate, and focus on her handling rather than "I hate Minfilia". There's a huge difference, and it won't be swept under a rug by saying it's not right/fair for a virtual character with barely any depth or usage when compared to any other in the roster. It is a fault of the writers/developers. Simple.

I liked Minfilia too - but I think it absolutely fits her character to leave in this way, and she would never want to live again at the cost of Ryne's free will. Thancred comes to understand that in the end.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

Tataru is great. Whenever things are getting terrible, Tataru can provide emotional support or comic relief, something Minfilia generally needed from us. As a result, Tataru ended up being a better version of our "non-combat support" than Minfilia herself.

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I actually liked Minfilia relying on our character for support - showing that vulnerability and 'human-ness'. She clearly valued our character as a friend and felt she could confide in us.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...that I just want to add one little thing to, since pretty much everything else I would have wanted to say has already been said. Its a special pet peeve of mine, I'll admit that, but here it goes: I think I already mention how I'm not a fan of her eye candy status and outfit - theres nothing wrong with pretty characters, dont get me wrong, but please, please... dont make that the primary thing about them. Or contradricte their character - which is what I feel happend here.

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I agree on this - and I don't think her outfit looks all that appealing anyway, though I'm not the "target audience" (for lack of a better term) so maybe can't judge.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If the developers want to get rid of a character, they’ll do what they did to Fordola. She had a really good arc in 4.1; but Japan did not like her character, so they relegated her to a Lodestone “Tales of the Storm” post and wrapped her story up there off-screen.

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People keep assuming that was "the end" for her, but I never saw any reason to take it that way. It always looked like a way of keeping up with what she's doing until she's ready to come back into the game story again... and now the other end of that thread has been picked up in the Lv80 SMN quest, a job whose storyline has always sat quite close to MSQ events. Perhaps she and Arenvald will move into being involved in those quests from now onwards, like Hilda has moved out of MSQ into the Lv70+ MCH quests.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

We agreed that we would desolve the Scions and just keep working togther without forming this organisation.

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We never decided to "dissolve the Scions", just that we didn't need to elect a new person to Minfilia's position. The Scions are still very much the active organisation we are working for.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

The issue is you're trying to defend her virtue like she's an actual person.

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This has already been touched on, but we absolutely should be (and generally are) talking about these characters like they are actual people. Any time we express anything about their personalities or "what they would want" or what they did or thought... we're talking about them as living people from a country called Eorzea, not a programmed cluster of polygons in a video game, or plot devices in a narrative.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

So first of all I want to say thank you to all of you whos been participating in this conversation. I actually managed to turn it into a relatively civil discussion with people on both sides.

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Sorry, but you don't get to claim credit for that. Strange a concept as it might be on the Internet, the Lore subforum is very good at civil discussion. It's not happening due to your influence.


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And on some offshoots to the main conversation....

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well the solution for returning the Scions back to the source is already mentioned being....

that Exarch is planning to awaken G'raha Tia in the source version of Crystal Tower so he can learn to return their souls back to their body at the end of 5.0. However, he has to learn how to master the powers of the Crystal Tower to perform the Summoning skill Exarch has.

This will of course lead to events in 5.1 involving events in the Source.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Is this actually confirmed somewhere? Or is it just some people interpreting his line at the end of the MSQ and that's it? If the shot had then cut to somewhere else and showed younger G'raha awakening or CT machinery buzzing to life or something, I'd agree. As it stands, though, I don't think he was actually talking to anyone but himself there. It sounded like an "Alright, <refers to self in 3rd person>. Time to go to work!", self-motivational pep talk.

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Definitely not confirmed, or even implied. I would also take his closing line as simply talking to himself - perhaps specifically to that 'young', adventurous aspect of his personality that's he's had to keep hidden and dormant for nearly a century.

Also, as I've said elsewhere - because the Crystal Tower is optional and treated as "hasn't happened yet" until the individual player completes it, it would be difficult-if-not-impossible to bring young G'raha into the MSQ as his current status is variable. The time-travel plot sidesteps that issue by putting him past that point and into "definitely already happened (for him)" territory.

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Originally Posted by Sammix87

It's also worth noting in regards to Thancred, that if you talk to him between quests (including Shadowbringers) there is often mention of his womanizing behavior so I doubt he's romantically devoted to anyone. He mentions his many conquests in the Crystarium if you talk to him towards the MSQ's end...:S....

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Originally Posted by Vidu

2) Honestly, I'm not even sure if Thancred is supposed to be the "boyfriend/husband"-type. Hes a womanizer in the end - in Shadowbringers end aswell, considering how he (or Urianger?) mentions something about some girls he went out to drinks with.

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It's side dialogue if you talk to Thancred post-credits!

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THANCRED
People came from malms around to join the festivities, but most seem to have stumbled home by now.
Even so, I daresay Norvrandt will echo to the sound of clinking mugs for some while yet.
I thought to indulge in a little revelry myself last night...until Urianger began to list all the names of my drunken conquests. I ended up drinking water. Water.

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There's also the much earlier instance at the Rising Stones (right back in post-ARR) where you can come across him being confronted by five of his ex-girlfriends at once...

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

As someone who plays using the Japanese, this is very true.

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It is a cultural thing I believe.

JP community is more accepting of the Brother and Sister relationship without being blood related but Western community is seen more to be accepting of Father and daughter relationships for non-blood related people.

It is part of the reason why wenever got the other version of Nier 1 game where the MC is a Older Brother.

I like Ryne that minifila give all her power to Ryne I said I love see her come to source what tatura and minifila mother view would be I think they embrace her to. I glad Ryne can fight this is better for her it doesn't show she weak and defenseless

Minfilia seems to be a Japanese trope/writing type to me I see from time to time. I can think of one American character similar to this trope (X-men's Jean Grey) but I usually see it more in Japanese writing. Which is probably why so many didn't find her that interesting. I think ironically another character that comes off that way is also from another Final Fantasy - 15. Lunafreya. Both seem to be this purity/mother type that if you analyze them have a lot of strength but in terms of interacting with our character - are probably the most boring types for many. I think it's also how people's culture view these types that it also causes a lot of division amongst the audience.


90% of that character's being is to push reactions from other members around him/her.

For example, a there are as many that found the tragedy of Romance with FF15's where other people were like..."who was she again?" but we most felt sorry for Noctis than both of them.

Minfilia "on paper" has probably some of the most interesting faucets of her - tragic past and relation with Thancred, her Echo ability and fusing with Hydaelyn. When she talks about echo its done in such a way that's like "yeah yeah, on to the next quest" and the time that she's involved where it piques our interest is her conversation with Elidibus.

Minfilia seems to be the fuel for Thancred's emotions the most. Her joining with Hydaelyn and later with Ryne. It was really the same way I felt about Jean Grey as while she's powerful she felt like a device to serve emotional conflict for the men around her, Cyclops, Wolverine (and that uncomfortable bit with Prof. X). The time I found her remotely interesting was finally the Phoenix Saga and much in that vein I found Minfilia more interesting subsequently with her joining of Hydaelyn. It wasn't just that they became beings of great power, but the conflict with it.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I'm sorry, again your reasoning doesn't gel up and at this point you're just shifting goal posts.

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It just seems that you didnt understand the true meaning of my words. I have to explain myself here. Yes, I tend to exaggerate my words to give them a greater emotional color because in Internet communication very often there is not enough that, umm, emotional tint, because we don’t hear each other and don’t understand with what tone we speak one or another phrase. Thats exactly why I said that in such confident tone that they will never admit their mistakes. But of course I meant only this exact situation, that to admit that it was their fault in that poor writing of Minfilia would mean to recognize failure of a huge chunk of work and man hours and people would expect them to rectify the situation by adding more lines, more "mass" to Minfilia's interaction with a player. They just decided not not to add more work on the plate to themselves and took the easy way out by bringing her out of the story, Im still not convinced that it wasnt the true reason behind this.

So yeah, I didnt mean that they did not and will not accept their mistakes at all, yes, there were fine examples of it and links that you attached confirm this. But really, its hard not to accept that translation errors (and more importantly, inability to provide the same experience to people from different cultural backgrounds) were really their own mistakes, especially when a lot of people found them out and raised a discussion. They just had no other way out but to fix them. But with Minfilia they had a few ways out. And they took one of them.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Hating one character is not a good reason to skip the cutscenes and dialogue, tbh, especially considering how much interest in the story you claim to have. I didn't like Moenbryda, I still watched those cutscenes. I didn't like that bastard brother of Yotsuyu's, I still watched those cutscenes. I *initially* didn't like Thancred (forgive me for my sins, I have long since learned) but I still watched any cutscene with him. Basically speaking, if you're interested in the story, you won't skip just because one character you don't like is involved. Why? *Because they are a part of the story, and in this case a particularly key part of the story*

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First of all, I didnt skip all of main story because of Ryne, I skipped only those bits in which Ryne took the most prominient role. Thankfully, after what happened in Amh Araeng, Ryne started to appear lesser and lesser and I managed to watch cutscenes almost in their entirety. And yes, you have all the rights to claim that I didnt have any interest in the story at all but the truth is, I did and did big time, ShB story was actually on par with HW pre-Dragonsong War story for me in terms of writing (Archbishop, hassle with chantry etc -- loved it), I loved absolutely all concepts of it. I just didnt like Ryne more. From the point she was introduced, then after it was made known that there can only be either Ryne or Minfilia my dislike for her spiked up cuz I knew old Minfilia wont win and in the end grew to hatred after Minfilia gave up on her life for that girl, hatred that made me consider skipping cutscenes. I was super interested in the story but at the same time, didnt want to accept that Ryne is a part of in now. So I declared a boycott, as childish as it might sound. I just didnt want her to be a part of my story so I pretended shes not here at all by skipping all cutscenes in which she took the most prominent role. Yet I still managed to enjoy the story. Guess something is wrong with me, eh? Maybe you just didnt hate characters you mentioned as much as I hate Ryne now, I dont know.

And on point with Eden, since Ryne taking almost all of screentime there, I decided to rely on journal and maybe help from fellow forum dwellers who might be kind enough to provide me with the most important spoilers about Eden's plot since again, I did read that it will shed some light on Minfilia's doings in the past and I was interested in them but they didnt made it known that Ryne will be a major NPC in it. Thats why I decided to sacrifice cutscenes in favor of text information. And why would I even ask for information then if I had no interest in the story like you say?

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

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Not to be rude but...

It seems your hatred is just more born from wanting to blame someone for Minfilia's death.

It is in some way very similar to Emit's personality when it came to trying to bring back the Ancients of the past that sacrificed their own life by their own choice for the future of the planet.

You are putting too much expectations on Ryne to be the sacrifice to bring back Minfilia because you only care about Minfilia and ignore Ryne because she is not Minfilia similar to Emit ignore the currrent life of the Planets because they are not the Ancients. You can't let go like Emit because you only see the Ancients as they once were just like how you see Minfilia as she once was when you look at Ryne. You can't accept Ryne as a new life that was given a chance to live her own path by Minfilia's own choice to sacrifice her life (which she had already made long ago through the 100 years of sacrificing past generations of Minfilias by taking over their bodies and killing their souls) similar to how Emite refuse to accept the current life despite it was the choice of the Ancients to sacrifice their own life to Zodiark for the future generations of the world to have their own path.

At this point I think you really need to reconsider why you want to continue the story because it seem the only way for you to ever accept Ryne as a part of the Main Characters now is if they magically bring back Minfilia (which may or may not happen in a future storyline) or at least bring her back alive but still provide a lore reason why she never shows up again such as remain the Avatar of Hydaelyn or become the new Hydaelyn of the Planet if current Hydaelyn dies.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

It is in some way very similar to Emit's personality when it came to trying to bring back the Ancients of the past that sacrificed their own life by their own choice for the future of the planet.

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Yeah, I actually mentioned earlier that Im sympathetic to Ascians in this expansion and would take their side if we werent on a different side of a barricade. I explain myself more in this post.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

At this point I think you really need to reconsider why you want to continue the story

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Because it unlocks Expert Roulette :P

I understood the true meaning, but you do have to realize that to some you may be coming off a bit obsessive? I don't see how you thought that contributed to a civil discussion, when people were doing that on their own. The difference being is that people were being objective with their opinions even if they did or did not like a character. There were some that weren't but even then for the most part it still had nothing to do with you in particular. It has to do with people being more analytical about why or why not they felt something worked.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

First of all, I didnt skip all of main story because of Ryne, I skipped only those bits in which Ryne took the most prominient role.

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I never said you skipped it all. I simply stated that hating one character is no reason to skip cutscenes. I didn't like a few characters but I watched their cutscenes regardless.

In fact, skipping cutscenes because it features one specific character, and one that is so vitally integral to the story no less, is in fact being very disrespectful of the character, the story and the writer as well. You essentially did not give Ryne any kind of chance to prove herself, you did not give the story a chance to promote her, and you did not give the writer a chance to flesh her out and make her into a worthy successor. All because you couldn't get over your obsession for Minfilia, despite the fact that her story in Shadowbringers was beautiful and a very fitting and satisfying conclusion to her story, something many characters never get to have. And considering how many people either didn't care about her or didn't like her at all before, it's wonderful she got to have such a conclusion at all!

Bloody hell, even Thancred was able to accept this

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Bloody hell, even Thancred was able to accept this

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To be fair, Thancred did have 5 years to accept this will be the result in the end and most likely only started to accept Ryne around 1 or 2 years after finding the truth. We only known Ryne for a few days/weeks/months.

Still, Ryne is still young and needs time to grow. She is basically like Alphanaud in 2.0 to 2.X right now with her life, young and still a bit ignorant of the world due to being locked away for so long and not having a chance to be her own person until now. Though Alphinaud was just young and too optimisticly ignorant thus people hated him with a passion during 2.0 to 2.X just like how Antoine hates Ryne right now and yes there were people who skipped cutscenes that would heavily involve Alphinaud due to how much he annoyed them only to finally stop that habbit once 3.0 got released due to his development in personality and beliefs.

Ryne needs time to grow as a character into her own which is part of the story that will certainly begin in 5.1 and from there we can only watch and see who she becomes to a point people will finally accept her as a different person from Minfilia and also not someone trying to replace Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Ryne needs time to grow as a character into her own which is part of the story that will certainly begin in 5.1 and from there we can only watch and see who she becomes to a point people will finally accept her as a different person from Minfilia and also not someone trying to replace Minfilia.

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Thing is though that Ryne started to develop into her own person after Minfilia gave her control of her life. She was not trying to replace Minfilia, she was trying to become her own person with agency over her own life which is part of why she chose to face Minfilia and share the choice she had made. The entire raid story begins and follows her own desire to begin reclaiming what was lost to the flood.

The way things sound Antione is not even giving her a chance, and is skipping all of her character development. Unlike Alphinaud who took a long time to get over his faults Ryne is proceeding fairly fast in becoming her own person.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I didn’t think she had much of a personality, nor did I find her particularly talented in anything other than getting kidnapped by every other villain out there.

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I've always found this issue a bit odd...

Considering she was only nabbed twice - once when everyone not killed when Livia attacked the Waking Sands was also captured - this includes Tataru, Papalymo, AND Urianger and yet they get no crap for getting kidnapped nearly as much as Minfilia was (2 isn't exactly a hard number to reach afterall) - and then later when she refuses to hand over Tupsimati to Nabriales (he literally states that he'll just take her since she won't hand it over and Elidibus "would never let me hear the end of it" if he just killed her).

I mean, I think we get captured just about as much, now that I think about it.

Her story definitely isn't told well in ARR, but this "she just stands around and gets captured all the time" kind of view of her just doesn't feel like it stands up to any sort of scrutiny, and there are bigger problems worth criticizing from her portrayal and narrative prior to ShB.

I think the capturing one is more of the sense of what she was doing or where she was at, than the fact she just got captured. If people are captured or kidnapped during missions or doing something useful (at least to the eyes of the audience) they will waive it.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I think the capturing one is more of the sense of what she was doing or where she was at, than the fact she just got captured. If people are captured or kidnapped during missions or doing something useful (at least to the eyes of the audience) they will waive it.

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Tataru, Papalymo, and Urianger are also captured...while not on a mission, or really doing anything more or less useful than Minfilia was doing at the time, and like her whatever they were doing at the time was shown off-screen. Yet it's Minfilia that gets the grief for being captured, and Minfilia alone in this situation.

The other time she was protecting a valuable and powerful relic, despite not having really having the power to do so (and lucked out a bit that Elidibus wanted her alive for some reason and so Nabriales couldn't straight up kill her and take it).

Nah...I don't think they are taking into account what the person was doing, it's just a matter of if they like the character or not, not what happened in the narrative.

Tataru is definitely comic relief and fit the role. Urianger is our brainy guy

To be honest the kiddnapping annoyed me at the beginning for most of these characters mentioned because I really didn't know them. However, the devs have actually developed them into more interesting types that I could "tolerate" it or waive it. So no it's not that as much you think.

Even with my annoyance with Tataru, she does make me chuckle at times, and even with Urianger tossing me a giant word salad I still get their roles.

And I said earlier in these posts Minfilia seems way more to be a Jean Grey type character that on paper shows what can be a compelling character but seems to be more forced to push reactions of other characters around us than our own.

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Im quite confused here. Like, isn't that what the author of any media should strive for when he's writing a character: to make his writers feel like his characters are real

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This has already been touched on, but we absolutely should be (and generally are) talking about these characters like they are actual people. Any time we express anything about their personalities or "what they would want" or what they did or thought... we're talking about them as living people from a country called Eorzea, not a programmed cluster of polygons in a video game, or plot devices in a narrative.

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My comments have no bearing on how writing, movies, games, or any media incur a real passion for fictional characters. That is its own thing. As I pointed out before, there is nothing wrong with being passionate about a character and nobody should feel bad for doing so, no matter how much other people might dislike them, but that isn't the point. Said comments referred to very specific posts that were reactionary-typed as if Minfilia is an actual person in the real world who needed defending from evil people who might hurt her non-existent feelings. Investing in a character and discussing them like they are more than words on a page is a great thing, but this is still a fictional fantasy and not real-life drama involving living people, thus those who reacted like people with a different opinion on the character were defaming an actual person achieved very little with those words. As said, two different things.

Minfilia was atrociously handled and happens to be one of the lesser-liked (overall) characters for a large list of very specific and over-explained reasons. I've always liked her, but that is the way of it.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Tataru, Papalymo, and Urianger are also captured...while not on a mission, or really doing anything more or less useful than Minfilia was doing at the time.

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Another point about "Minfilia is useless/doesn't fight/gets kidnapped constantly!" is that the first time it happened, Urianger and Papalymo did got both kidnaped as well, and both where more than capable to defend themselves, but they didn't because they did know better to not do that.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

In fact, skipping cutscenes because it features one specific character, and one that is so vitally integral to the story no less, is in fact being very disrespectful of the character, the story and the writer as well. You essentially did not give Ryne any kind of chance to prove herself, you did not give the story a chance to promote her, and you did not give the writer a chance to flesh her out and make her into a worthy successor.

Bloody hell, even Thancred was able to accept this

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Like I said, I still managed to enjoy the storyline whilst skipping almost all cutscenes that includes Ryne, I really liked it. I just do not agree with the path they decided to take with Minfilia. I am guided only by my opinion and my feelings from the plot and if my feelings are telling me that something is off, I will not turn a blind eye to this and go against myself. Yes, my methods may be a bit radical and you may call it disrespectful but that's the way it is and thats how I tend to get attached to a characters, despite how RopeDrink been telling me you shouldnt take them as if they are real people, I do often get so attached to the characters that these connections can be called "real people connections". Hence why my little protestation took place. I do not want to see Ryne in the story of my character, I dont want to give her a chance to prove herself because I dont think I will ever be able to see her as her own character, I will always see her as a "that girl which replaced Minfilia". Moreover considering the fact how much I liked Minfilia character and didnt want her to depart.

And yeah, still can't wrap my head why Thancred accepted this, it was so out of his character and felt so stretched. You may call it a character progression but I saw it as an attempt to pull the plot and make you accept Ryne as a successor since even Thancred accepted her.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

I do not want to see Ryne in the story of my character, I dont want to give her a chance to prove herself because I dont think I will ever be able to see her as her own character, I will always see her as a "that girl which replaced Minfilia". Moreover considering the fact how much I liked Minfilia character and didnt want her to depart.

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You understand, then, that you are using Ryne as a scapegoat for the real target of your ire - the decision by the writers to write Minfillia out of the storyline? Within the storyline, it was Minfillia's choice to sacrifice herself for Ryne, and if Minfillia knew that you despised Ryne for it, she would be saddened, indeed. Hydaelyn, too, had a large part to play in Minfillia's fate, and Minfillia considered her to be a dear friend and ally. Ryne's desire to live is also pretty understandable; the situation she was in was utterly unfair. She never asked to be the Oracle of Light, and neither had any of her predecessors.

As for Thancred... His emotional struggle and eventual acceptance are understandable, as well. He was protective of Minfillia - but also knew that the very last thing she would want would be for another to die for her own sake. He'd also had years to get to know Ryne as a human being, and in Thancred's mind an ideal solution would be for both to live - but, unfortunately, that wasn't possible. In the end, he chose to respect Minfillia's opinions. You mentioned that you couldn't understand his decision, as his feelings toward Minfillia were similar to yours. You see Ryne as nothing more than a symbol of what you lost, and despise her for it. You wonder why Thancred doesn't despise her, as well (and Ryne was certainly expecting him to). Because he did not, you consider him to be poorly written and out-of-character. The difference, though, is that he had had the opportunity to get to know Ryne, an opportunity you never had. He had traveled with her, had conversations with her, eaten with her, fought beside her, trained her - she had become a precious person to him, just as Minfillia was a precious person. He did not want either to die, but the fact that one of the two survived did not change how precious the survivor was. Thancred has a beef, but it's not with Ryne. It's with the unfairness of the world that put his precious people into that position. (In other words, he's rightfully upset with the writers, not the characters. Thancred, in fact, would be wondering how YOU could heap the blame on Ryne! Ryne is a good girl.)

Basically, the writers wanted to ramp up the drama, and did so at Minfillia's expense. You wouldn't be the first to put down a book because you found a plot twist to be too tragic to take. A good story DOES get you emotionally involved; it could be seen as a primary purpose, in fact. The downside is that on occasion, some folks get a little TOO deeply involved, can't handle the writers' decisions, and nope on out. If that's the case for you, then it is what it is. Still, you have my sympathies - you're missing out on a good read.

Ryne is by no means a bad character. She is however a plot device. This shouldn't be a surprise for us considering that SE will make a new character and kill them off in the same patch if it will continue the plot (Moenbryda for example). She needs time to grow and evolve but I fear that it will come at a cost. It is a slippery slope from wanting to become stronger to being whiny and constantly having self doubt be a defining character trait. Thancred and Urianger talk about how they will eventually leave the first when they find a way to return to the source, and both are trying to teach Ryne everything they can before that happens. It is a nice sentiment, but also a bittersweet one considering we lost a close friend (who by the way promised to come back) in another world, only to have the girl she sacrificed everything for, remain behind after we all leave. I'm worried that all this focus on Ryne will inevitable come to naught if/when she needs to stay on the first. Look at Lyse, she isn't even a scion anymore and was not called to the first with the rest of us. All the build up of her character and she is not even mentioned in Shadowbringers.

Of course time travel being such a focus of this expansion, I would not be surprised if a drastic change to previous events took place. We are getting New Game plus for a reason, and seeing the duty finder being worked into the story was a shock.

Antoine, if you truly liked Minfilia, watch the cutscenes with Ryne. She is the key to any hope of having Minfilia come back. I am right there with you in wanting her to return but the hatred towards Ryne's character is in my opinion unwarranted. Minfilia was her Ardbert. They are both of the same soul.

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And yeah, still can't wrap my head why Thancred accepted this, it was so out of his character and felt so stretched.

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No. This is your bitterness over Minfilia's outcome overshadowing what was actually presented. Thancred's reaction was entirely appropriate, as was the entire emotion-based arc he went through as a result of the whole situation.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

No. This is your bitterness over Minfilia's outcome overshadowing what was actually presented. Thancred's reaction was entirely appropriate, as was the entire emotion-based arc he went through as a result of the whole situation.

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Exactly. If there is anything we've learned about Thancred over the course of the game it's that he isn't one to blame others for things that wasn't their fault. He'll blame villains, he'll blame himself, but he won't blame others unless they specifically are responsible, and even then he won't hold a grudge. Hell, Thancred was indirectly responsible for the massacre at the Waking Sands and the capture of the Scions when he was possessed by Lahabrea. He knows what it's like to feel guilty over something not really his fault.

I never once believed that he blamed or hated Ryne. He likely resented her, sure, and he would have really struggled with the knowledge that it was her or Minfilia, but he wouldn't have hated her. If anything, he probably hated and blamed himself for not being there for Minfilia, for failing her. Ever since the Goobue, he's dedicated himself to her. Ever since Lahabrea, he's failed to protect her at every turn. And now, the only way he could save her would be to give up on an innocent girl, something he knew Minfilia wouldn't want anyway.

His sudden revelation wasn't suddenly forgiving or choosing Ryne, it's realizing that it was Ryne's decision, not anyone elses, and whatever she chose, it's what Minfilia would want. You'll notice that Thancred never once told her to choose herself. He also never told her to choose Minfilia. He apologized for everything left unsaid and told her the decision is hers to make and no one else should ever make it for her. That is both an extremely neutral thing to say, as well as an indication that whatever she chooses, it's ok, he has made his peace.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Another point about "Minfilia is useless/doesn't fight/gets kidnapped constantly!" is that the first time it happened, Urianger and Papalymo did got both kidnaped as well, and both where more than capable to defend themselves, but they didn't because they did know better to not do that.

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Yes, others get kidnapped to but to me this is like the "Tataru doesnt fight either!" argument: All other characters who are involved in being kidnapped are shown as active and capable characters throughout the rest of the game. And that doesnt translate to physical strength! I dont remember if we see Urianger fight all that much in ARR but we dont need to since hes presented to us as a well educated scholar with a waste knowledge that hes providing us with. At the same time Minfilia is sending us to him whenever we need a more complexe explantion of something.
Something similar goes for Papalymo, even though he has a stronger emphasis on being a capable mage.

But my point is, yet again, that most other characters are shown to do more than standing around and being kidnapped. The problem isnt the kidnapping-part, the problem is the lack of anything else. The problem is that Minfilia is only ever described as being super-important but not shown this way, but as a passive character through and through. Thats whats turning her into the damsel in distress, not the actualy kidnapping. You can obviously decide that thats not bothering you and that you still like her - you can even like her because of it!
But at least for me the wjole kidnapping-thing is the tip of the iceberg for a character who doesnt do much... except getting kidnapped - while other characters are doing lots of stuff and being shown doing that... and being kidnapped.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Yes, others get kidnapped to but to me this is like the "Tataru doesnt fight either!" argument: All other characters who are involved in being kidnapped are shown as active and capable characters throughout the rest of the game. And that doesnt translate to physical strength! I dont remember if we see Urianger fight all that much in ARR but we dont need to since hes presented to us as a well educated scholar with a waste knowledge that hes providing us with. At the same time Minfilia is sending us to him whenever we need a more complexe explantion of something.
Something similar goes for Papalymo, even though he has a stronger emphasis on being a capable mage.

But my point is, yet again, that most other characters are shown to do more than standing around and being kidnapped. The problem isnt the kidnapping-part, the problem is the lack of anything else. The problem is that Minfilia is only ever described as being super-important but not shown this way, but as a passive character through and through. Thats whats turning her into the damsel in distress, not the actualy kidnapping. You can obviously decide that thats not bothering you and that you still like her - you can even like her because of it!
But at least for me the wjole kidnapping-thing is the tip of the iceberg for a character who doesnt do much... except getting kidnapped - while other characters are doing lots of stuff and being shown doing that... and being kidnapped.

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I did find it rather odd that there was a great deal of pointing out in the 4.x story that a lot of the success of the Scions is due to the connections and networking that Minfilia had cultivated when she was around.

It felt suspiciously like the writers only just noticed that they never actually said what Minfilia was doing back in 2.0, with everyone assuming that surely someone else had handled writing it up, and only afterwards did they realize that no, nobody wrote it up.

Hey all again lol. You may call it necroposting but I really took a huge break off forums and game to study and work taking a lot of space on my plate so didnt really have time to answer. And I think I just dont want this thread to die out so here I am again x)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

As for Thancred... His emotional struggle and eventual acceptance are understandable, as well.

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I loved you answer and point of view. I even liked it, something I rarely do to my opponent's comments. I still have a few things to say about what you said tho.

Its not me who are using Ryne is a scapegoat, its writers who made her a scapegoat. Its was just not really visible because it turned out everyone fell in love with Ryne and everyone hated Minfilia so it was a good exchange for 90% of the community. Like Riastrad said, she is a plot device. Writers just didnt know what to do with Minfilia, they came up with this "Hydaelyn's vessel" thing to shut her down for almost two expansions but in ShB it surfaced again. Like, okay, we dealt with her for two expansions but now, considering the flow of the plot, we need to somehow bring her back in one form or another. We can't just continue to keep her "somewhere over there" 'n pretend nothing happened. And considering that they didn't know how to bring her back or how to tie her in into the plot or let them both live, they removed Minfilia from the story completely by letting her die. The simplest solution in all literature examples, but it also indicates writing impotence. And I quite frankly can't understand why you people keep defending poor writing. Guess hate for Minfilia is still a thing.

And about Thancred. Why I don't understand his eventual acceptance is because of how rushed it was. Listen, it was shown throughout half of ShB how cold he is towards her, how hard he struggle to even bear her company. Yes, he was protective of her, he saved her from imprisonment twice etc. That all was solely because his deep heart's desire for his Minfilia to come back. Writers just didnt want to show Thancred as a complete asshole, thus made him withstand this emotional battle by wanting his Minfilia to come back and not outright proposing to this child to give up on her life. He was on a verge tho. I loved this, it was well-thought and well-written. But then, after all this emotional struggle, by a snap of fingers, he respects Ryne and considering her as a full-fledged successor of Minfilia. Like, why? In a cutscene before you despised her, now you respect her? Even more funny that a cutscene before he fought Ranjit, fell on the ground and told to his Minfilia that he loves her. And in the next cutscene you are happy to wave her goodbye?

It reminds me of what I love to call "Naruto brainwashing syndrome". I don't know if you ever watched Naruto but I guess you have a general idea. The main thing about this syndrome is no matter how embittered and terrible the main villain of a certain arc are, Naruto can bring him back on good path just by exchanging some few words. Good example of this is Pain. Pain was a fearsome villain who experienced a lot of pain in his childhood (hence the nickname) and turned to believe that the only way humans could understand one another was through shared pain, thus showed no hesitation in obliterating the Leaf village, Naruto's home village. It was absolutely impossible to think that villain of this magnitude could become good again. Yet, when Naruto eventually found him and exchanged just a few words about his past and what he had experienced and how he withstanded and remained with his sanity intact, Pain got turned onto good path again, he even sacrificed himself to resurrect that village people he killed. And this trope lasts throughout all anime, sometimes Naruto doesnt even have to fight a villain, just speak with him and no matter how evil he was, now he's as good and as pure as a paladin. Its better to watch some examples of it though, I am pretty bad at describing lol.

So yeah, that's what I felt when I saw how they dealt with Thancred in this situation. That's why I said it felt so out of place and stretched. He didnt even got a chance to meet with Minfilia, only our characted did, I mean maybe I could understand if it was truly her wish to let Ryne continue living and if she had a chance to say it to him directly. Say a few parting words, perhaps? I would understand his eventual decision then. But out of nothing? After showing so much bitterness towards Ryne and made us thinking: "Yeah, he def hates her". Like, what happened, did Naruto appear and talk you out of this path?

Yup, they did ramp up the drama. But its a drama only for those few who actually liked Minfilia. Its not a drama for those who disliked or was meh about her, for them it was just "another minor character passing away" sort of thing. And it was justified in their eyes because of how cool Ryne turned out to be. How cute and awesome she is. And how better she is at everything than Minfilia was. I just didnt want Minfilia to go like this, to be remembered just as an annoying quest giver and eye candy. My wishes will never come true.