Scholar notes from E3 build - Titania Fight

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

We'll agree to disagree about that being denying you a voice; I see that more as questioning a double standard that seems to be prevalent here, in that dps and tanks are (much like healers) speculating what their rotations will be based on given tooltips. Entire rotations for several jobs have already been mathed out, and yes there is already some suggested changes; Nemekh, for example, already pointed out some serious problems if SMN were to be released in its pre-Alpha state; Red Mages know what they will and will not be getting in the final build of the game as well, and this has caused some to mourn the loss of abilities they wished they could have kept. These examples are both of people looking at tooltips we have available to us, and giving feedback based on knowledge of what the changes themselves mean even if we haven't been able to play the jobs at 80 yet.

We have practically full data at 80. Potencies are subject to change, but they're not going to overhaul abilities between an alpha build and final release. They won't suddenly add back in SCH's dots (as an example), and if they do I'll be colored very surprised and myself cede on that point. People have a very good guess at what the game will look like at 80 based on the tooltips we've been given; this is through combination of tooltips and experience at the game as it currently exists.

Tooltips aren't suggestions of what the ability could be. They're point-blank descriptions of what abilities are.

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I agreed about the voice thing anyway as per my last post. I only healer main so the Tank/DPS stuff is lost on me tbh.

Reading this i concede to your points.... It will be poop.


I snipped this from Yuyuka3 and my faith in the devs and how I formed my opinion is null and void. It will be crap, happy days... time to play RDM.

How many healer mains did attend that media tour? 0. How many questions were asked about healers? 3 out of 92. So people who got no effing clue of healers were contented? Oh, yes, we should totally take that at face value, let's pack up guys, he showed us how it is!
Also, it is far, far, FAR TOO LATE one month after launch because they cannot reasonably reverse all the idiotic stuff they did after release, so they have to be told NOW. You guys in the "wait and see"-crowd must be truly blind and deaf to still think this way after everything that happened the two previous expansion launches.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Mr. Pot, I would sadly have to inform you that you are black, too. I'm not telling you to stop talking until level 80. I'm telling you to spread your message to the tanks and DPS forums because otherwise you are subjecting us to a double standard. A substandard. That our opinions from the same sources of information do not matter. A feeling that many of us feel that the dev team is supressing us with as it is. So please, go. Tell the Tank forums to stop speculating until 80. Tell the DPS to stop discussing their changes until they are 80. By all means spread your message to everyone who will listen. But if you're not going to tell them to wait in silence, do not do so to us.

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I dont play tanks/dps but i agree with you now. oh well.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

I agreed about the voice thing anyway as per my last post. I only healer main so the Tank/DPS stuff is lost on me tbh.

Reading this i concede to your points.... It will be poop.


I snipped this from Yuyuka3 and my faith in the devs and how I formed my opinion is null and void. It will be crap, happy days... time to play RDM.

How many healer mains did attend that media tour? 0. How many questions were asked about healers? 3 out of 92. So people who got no effing clue of healers were contented? Oh, yes, we should totally take that at face value, let's pack up guys, he showed us how it is!
Also, it is far, far, FAR TOO LATE one month after launch because they cannot reasonably reverse all the idiotic stuff they did after release, so they have to be told NOW. You guys in the "wait and see"-crowd must be truly blind and deaf to still think this way after everything that happened the two previous expansion launches.

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You are only trolling now, are you?

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

You are only trolling now, are you?

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If i hit that reply thread once more it keeps wiping what I type!!

No I am not trolling, sorry to all about my opinion in this thread it was wrong and flawed and I recognise it. Sorry just a human and passionate and not always right.

I had hoped the devs, testers etc had balanced the healers in the new content and why I was beating the drum of wait till 80 dungeons, primals etc as we would've been tuned up and we would be proper busy healing etc. It was a false hope. I am a healer and play all three but Scholar has my heart and after SB I had hoped that things would be ok. Your statement Yuyuka3 in the other thread just woke me up to my own naivety and silly thoughts. I haven't forgiven the devs since they changed our lustrate in ARR and meh more of the same.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

*something*

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That doesn't mean that content prior to level 80 is not able to be simulated with the data presented. Currently, I don't see the data, as presented, providing meaningful fun, in terms of gameplay, prior to 80. This is still a relevant issue, as level-sync will still be happening for dungeon crawls, possibly some raids, and who knows what else. Even if pre-80 content would somehow not remain relevant, and especially if the healer role suddenly becomes fun at level 80, why is it that healers need to wait until level 80 to have fun?

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

That doesn't mean that content prior to level 80 is not able to be simulated with the data presented. Currently, I don't see the data, as presented, providing meaningful fun, in terms of gameplay, prior to 80. This is still a relevant issue, as level-sync will still be happening for dungeon crawls, possibly some raids, and who knows what else. Even if pre-80 content would somehow not remain relevant, and especially if the healer role suddenly becomes fun at level 80, why is it that healers need to wait until level 80 to have fun?

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indeed and very good points about level sync. Lesson learn't I should read more before making an opinion or stand.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

That doesn't mean that content prior to level 80 is not able to be simulated with the data presented. Currently, I don't see the data, as presented, providing meaningful fun, in terms of gameplay, prior to 80. This is still a relevant issue, as level-sync will still be happening for dungeon crawls, possibly some raids, and who knows what else. Even if pre-80 content would somehow not remain relevant, and especially if the healer role suddenly becomes fun at level 80, why is it that healers need to wait until level 80 to have fun?

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You are right there. I think my mentality is level a tank to 80 to get through content as I play with a wh. I then burn through healer levelling and my healer switches to dps and that is how we play as we have a variety of classes between us as options but maybe not needed with trust systems.. So I didnt consider the journey of levelling a healer as i just rush for the destination of 80.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

2: Let's not pretend that SCH isn't broken in Stormblood. They completely deserve nerfs.

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it's not "nerf" .. a nerf is indom having 400pot instead of 500

a nerf is decreasng broil II damage


here it's a loss of abilities. You always have to think that the more gear we get, the more trivial fights become and healers need to have something to do if they don't need to heal.

a dps always have a rotation, stacks to keep, resources to manage to dps more and the fun can be to increase dps as much as possible. while avoiding stuff. perfecting the rotation.

that's why AST are fun .. coz even if they have no dps rotation, they have lots of macro management that makes u busy. all the cards, spread, royal road or crowns .. a lot of decisions on top of healing. So they don't need a complex dps rotation, coz their complexity comes in their buffs. So even if they don't need to heal as much ... they always have lots of micro management.

SCH and WHM don't have that. That's why I find WHM boring .. it's because once udon't need to focus on healing, their dps "rotation" is boring and their lillies are just as boring.

SCH has a bit more dps management, with the dots, bane, ED, the stack .. it made it fun, coz same ... the healing isn't complex, what is complex is keeping the stacks, managing them and managing your dps.


in shb ... we lose a lot of that. and we don't have the micro management an AST has. So yeah sure .. first instances, we'll have to heal a bit more, so we'll be busy. but at some point, if there's not even a bit of depth into the healer's dps rotation .. then playing healer is boring.

because u don't have heal checks at every corner.

and let's face it .. playing dps at low lvl is boring. well healer (if heals are not needed) will be just as boring 1 spell spam. And that's the biggest issue for me. For "pure" healers ... it won't change a thing in SB or SHB ...

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I'm legitimately getting worried that, with a proper tight DPS check, it's going to be healers getting blamed for failing even if no one dies. Maybe I just have a bad opinion of the general population at times.

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I mean the trust healer bots even deal dmg so should tell you what square thinks about that

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Your options being gutted doesn't mean your damage is gutted. Biolysis does 50 more potency than Miasma 2 and Bio 2 combined. Broil 3 obviously does more damage than Broil 2. Having to maintain 2 dots over one isn't any harder or more complex -- healer DPS kit isnt, and likely never will be, complex. The complexity of playing a healer at high level is mapping out your heals to allow you to Broil/Stone/Malefic spam more. That aspect of the game hasn't changed.

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I'd like to just dispel this little myth that having 2 dots isn't more complex than having 1 that does the same/more than the 2.

2 dots = 2 gcds
1 dot = 1 gcd

Now can you see where the complexity might be, it is of course in the fact you have to use 2 gcds with no healing needed between them rather than 1 its minor but it does add more complexity, you also have to weigh up each dot with the basic dmg skill to see if worth applying at that time, more dots more to weigh up and again its minor but it does add complexity.

healer dps rotations do not need to be dps or tank levels but not having something that keeps you engaged better than 2,1,1,1,1,1,1 etc is going to make leveling boring especially any solo instances as healer

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I mean the trust healer bots even deal dmg so should tell you what square thinks about that

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I laughed so hard seeing that last night, but it was not a happy laugh. So healer DPS is not taken into consideration? Healers are supposed to heal and nothing else? Then why, pray tell, do your own friggin NPCs you give us for dungeons play exactly like any halfway competent healer does? Throwing out DPS whenever possible? How does that mesh with 'healers should heal' at all? Because I seriously fail to see how that is.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well to be fair, isn't this basically just Titania Story Mode? The real test is going to be EX @ 80.

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Yea but what about players who don't do EX? I get for EX healing may be needed but for the others who don't then healer may be just...boring?

Also Astrologian had MP issues? *groans* What are we supposed to do with that?

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Originally Posted by Bastionus

Also Astrologian had MP issues? *groans* What are we supposed to do with that?

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Yeah, that's something I'm wondering about. WHM has Assize and Thin Air, SCH still have Aetherflow, and AST has...Nothing unique to help. Kinda wondering if that was intentional for some reason, or if they just forgot.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Yeah, that's something I'm wondering about. WHM has Assize and Thin Air, SCH still have Aetherflow, and AST has...Nothing unique to help. Kinda wondering if that was intentional for some reason, or if they just forgot.

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Lightspeed.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Lightspeed.

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I stand corrected. I forgot that was even a thing. Is it enough to really help, though?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Yeah, that's something I'm wondering about. WHM has Assize and Thin Air, SCH still have Aetherflow, and AST has...Nothing unique to help. Kinda wondering if that was intentional for some reason, or if they just forgot.

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Adding to Cesasaria's answer above, AST healing spells costed approximately 10% less MP than the equivalent spell in the WHM kit in Stormsblood / Heavensward.

This has been maintained in Shadowbringer for the following:
Benefic II versus Cure II (900 MP vs 1,000MP)
Helios versus Medica (900 MP vs 1,000MP)
Aspected Helios versus Medica II (1,200MP vs 1,300MP)

Also note that Helios has 10% more potency than Medica (330 potency vs 300 potency), though Aspected Helios is 100 potency weaker than Medica II (600 potency vs 700 potency). Also a minor note that though Diurnal Aspected Benefic and Regen both maintain the same cost and total potency / GCD, because Aspect Benefic has an initial application it actually heals faster than Regen.

Funny enough, they also reversed the MP costs for Gravity and Holy. IE, Gravity is a cheaper spell than Holy in the current iteration. In Shadowbringers, Gravity will actually do less potency and cost more MP than Holy (130 potency @ 700MP vs 140 potency @ 600MP). Admittedly, AoE MP costs mean less in a raid scenario.

[EDIT] Also, Lucid being a one minute CD now will help everyone out, as it looks to be 500MP a tick so that 3,500MP / minute if it maintains the 21s duration which is 35% of our total MP. It'll be difficult to say how much MP we healers will be consuming per fight until we see the content released and experience it ourselves.

[EDIT2] Also I personally wouldn't mind if AST and SCH both had MP issues in Savage / Ultimate content. It would put more weight in the WHM's MP kit that they have acquired over these years.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

[EDIT2] Also I personally wouldn't mind if AST and SCH both had MP issues in Savage / Ultimate content. It would put more weight in the WHM's MP kit that they have acquired over these years.

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I have nothing against that being WHM's niche, so to speak, but at the same time AST/SCH can't be so bad MP-wise that they can't finish long fights. It'll be interesting to see where things go, though I believe SCH has a lot more OCD MP free heals to play with, especially with the AoE off the Fey Gauge, weird as it will be to build that up.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

[EDIT2] Also I personally wouldn't mind if AST and SCH both had MP issues in Savage / Ultimate content. It would put more weight in the WHM's MP kit that they have acquired over these years.

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While I can respect everything else you wrote up, wishing QoL issues on other jobs is just selfish. No caster job should be MP starved.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

While I can respect everything else you wrote up, wishing QoL issues on other jobs is just selfish. No caster job should be MP starved.

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If MP isn't a resource, then it should be removed.

If a resource has no threat of running out, then it isn't a resource.

Hypothetically speaking, would it be so bad that "Knowing when to DPS" also included whether or not you had the MP to spare for it?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

While I can respect everything else you wrote up, wishing QoL issues on other jobs is just selfish. No caster job should be MP starved.

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But Deceptus, wouldnt a heavier emphasis on mp management give you that added complexity you desire?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

But Deceptus, wouldnt a heavier emphasis on mp management give you that added complexity you desire?

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Not if its purpose is to hamfist us into not DPSing by force rather than giving us a fun and engaging healing experience.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

But Deceptus, wouldnt a heavier emphasis on mp management give you that added complexity you desire?

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Not when one job doesn't have to worry about mp management at all, and two others are starved.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If MP isn't a resource, then it should be removed.

If a resource has no threat of running out, then it isn't a resource.

Hypothetically speaking, would it be so bad that "Knowing when to DPS" also included whether or not you had the MP to spare for it?

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Yet when the melee jobs had to manage their resources, especially in aoe situations, they had their resource management taken away. Just another double standard from SE.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I have nothing against that being WHM's niche, so to speak, but at the same time AST/SCH can't be so bad MP-wise that they can't finish long fights. It'll be interesting to see where things go, though I believe SCH has a lot more OCD MP free heals to play with, especially with the AoE off the Fey Gauge, weird as it will be to build that up.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

While I can respect everything else you wrote up, wishing QoL issues on other jobs is just selfish. No caster job should be MP starved.

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I wouldn't want a healer to be unable to finish a fight due to MP issues to be a common occurrence among the playerbase. With that being said, there is a level of satisfaction that can be gained from being able to effectively use a WHM's MP kit to push a broken party past the finish line where as the other healers would fall just shy of that because of the tools they've been given.

To mimic what Kabooa said earlier, if MP isn't a resource, it should be removed. WHM should then gain something else to distinguish their kit from the other two healers.

@Ilenya - from a lore standpoint, SCH should have a lot more oGCDs to use in their kit. They are "tactical healers", so they have to be tactical with their kit and it shows. SCH has always been heavily reliant on their cooldowns and need to acutely understand the fight patterns to optimize their kit to the fullest. When SCHs have to rely solely on their GCD heals to keep a party going, then you know the party has gone south fairly hard at that point. That was emphasized by the fact that not only did SCH's GCD spells cost more MP, they were also less potent as well. With the changes in Shadowbringers, the MP values for the GCDs have been adjusted to be equal but the potency values will still be weaker, making it a bit more even with the other two healers.

The one thing I would like to see for SCH is to actually have the HoT component of Sacred Soil be the base component and the damage reduction be a trait. That way SCHs have something better to sink Aetherflow stacks into. Right now it feels like there is nothing worth while to dump your stacks until level 78 where you can start dumping stacks into Sacred Soil HoTs.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Yet when the melee jobs had to manage their resources, especially in aoe situations, they had their resource management taken away. Just another double standard from SE.

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-Only- in AoE situations.

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time you try and pull the double standard card for completely different scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

-Only- in AoE situations.

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time you try and pull the double standard card for completely different scenarios.

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When Monks currently get an Arrow Card they drained their TP extremely fast. Paladins can also have TP issues because they have no self TP regen.

Next

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Not when one job doesn't have to worry about mp management at all, and two others are starved.

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I mean, it's not a brand new thing to see certain classes/specs/"whatever you want" in RPGs be centered around a specific stat to be effective compared to others.
Maybe they want AST/SCH to have some focus on Piety to leave WHM having a more offensive substat total to balance things out.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

When Monks currently get an Arrow Card they drained their TP extremely fast. Paladins can also have TP issues because they have no self TP regen.

Next

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Paladins get a huge TP break from Requiscat.

If we're going to count outside factors, the other melee gives them Goad.

TP. Didn't. Matter.

TP was not a resource worth considering.

So it got removed.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If MP isn't a resource, then it should be removed.

If a resource has no threat of running out, then it isn't a resource.

Hypothetically speaking, would it be so bad that "Knowing when to DPS" also included whether or not you had the MP to spare for it?

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The problem with having it as: If you dps too much you run out of mana, is you'll hit a situation where the optimal thing to do is stand around with a thumb right up your arse (especially cos break is gone) and that just ain't fun. Designing so if you DPS more you become mana starved isn't good design, how it currently works if you heal too much you become mana starved, which promotes efficient healing, and when you didn't having healing to do you could dps without relative risk of running out of mana, keeping you busy, that way you still had a resource to manage and didn't have to twiddle your thumbs.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Not when one job doesn't have to worry about mp management at all, and two others are starved.



Yet when the melee jobs had to manage their resources, especially in aoe situations, they had their resource management taken away. Just another double standard from SE.

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Yaddi yadda double standards I know. Anyway. MP management has always seemed to be a healer oriented task from other mmos I've played, unless it was the "gimmick" of a dps class.

And guess what? The classes still have ways to manage their mp. ScH still has the Aetherflow cd and a plethora of ogcd healing to offset the costs, heck the new Recitation skill even further doubles as a resource management tool on top of maximizing the output of the skill you use it on. Using it on Adlo and Succor is effectively the same mp gain as an Aetherflow.

And AST? They have cheaper spells across the board and have a buffed Lightspeed. Between the longer base duration and the charge system being added to Essential Diginity giving them more opportunities to reduce its cooldown. On top of that they even got a few more ogcd tools to reduce the mp they need to spend healing.

Personally? If having sch and ast being slightly more piety reliant then whm is the intention of the dev's, then I'm cool with it, it's a clever stealth fix to help whm gain a potency gain over the others.

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It was brought in line with whm and ast

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I hear this constantly. What does it mean? The only meaning I get is, they are more of the same. You will say "no, they are more balanced", but thing is; they aren't. WHM still has no utility. The one damn thing they wanted to stay competitive, they didn't got it. Actually, I think it may be even worst. AST and SCH are not worse. They have the same DPS. Infact, isn't AST better as know it can reliably give damage buffs even if they had been nerfed? From "maybe if you play your cards right, you get spread balance" to "now you will always get balance, and more constantly spread balance". AST will still dominate the healing field just because of that. And SCH? Just because they still have "Chain Stratagem" they are in over WHM. And if what people are saying is true, they will have even better healing. They aren't balanced at all. We are not worrying about how good they are in fact, we complain about how boring they have become.

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It's a healer now more then ever, you'll still be able to dps, you just won't be using a healing oriented resource to achieve it

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And what was the problem with that? Why can't we have a unique mechanic like that? Hell, is not even so far as losing DPS, but ED? You can take off the damage off of it and still would be good to recover MP and dump Aetherflow. Now it will feel awkward as hell. If there is something that feel bad when playing, is wasting resources, SPECIALLY if you are a Healer. And now our class doesn't have a way not to do so.

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Sometimes you gotta take an axe to a tree to make a house. There will be elements of old sch I will miss. But the core elements are still there and I'm going to keep being optimistic.

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But even our fairies have been made even more simple. It may or may not be better mechanically, but the fairy aspect is little by little losing importance, they are hardly pets anymore. And in 2.0 we had tons of DoTs, yet somehow now they aren't a core part of Scholar. Hell, in old FFs, Scholar was a RDM without melee capabilities and good at seeing enemies weaknesses, which then it means losing DPS actually goes against SCH classic identity. This wasn't cutting down a tree to build a house, they cut down the pillars of our house because it "wasn't right."

What they\\'re clearly trying to do with whm is give it the pure output niche. Hence why they gave them Misery and higher overall potencies. Unfortunately as an mmo they\\'re not always gonna get it to stick right the first time. In fact, their edge in mp sustain might, as a few people suggest, be another way to allow them to have a potency edge over the other two healers by allowing them to be less piety reliant, and thus be able to stack more crit and det.

Ast being able to more reliably buff group dps also means it\\'s easier to adjust their numbers should they once more prove to utterly replace whm with their raid utility. Having the factor of rng being as erratic makes it harder to parse their raid contribution. Let\\'s not pretend most of the ast gameplay loop wasnt fishing for balance and settling for Spear or arrow if we couldn\\'t get said balance.

While Chain is still a dps gain, its value is diminished now that brd doesn\\'t rely on crit procs and monk has a higher rate of proccing their crit proc.

ED is a tricky beast. Its value as a stack dump and resource manager is very good and I wont pretend it doesn\\'t hurt to see it go. But. It increases the value of Sacred Soil. Having higher uptime on group damage reduction (and soon to be a free hot on top of that.) may not yield the same returns as free damage and mp, but its still something of value that helps you deal more damage and spend less mp.

Juggling 5000 dots isnt what makes scholar a scholar, it\\'s the shields, the damage mitigation, the pet, the cooldowns. Bringing up how sch functioned in older ff games is irrelevant seeing how red mages dont juggle debuffs and refresh in this game or that dark knight isnt a dps that cuts itself to deal aoe damage to its foes.

I guess this is what happens when there are only 4 (or 5) people in charge of the entire game's battle system.

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What they\\'re clearly trying to do with whm is give it the pure output niche. Hence why they gave them Misery and higher overall potencies. Unfortunately as an mmo they\\'re not always gonna get it to stick right the first time. In fact, their edge in mp sustain might, as a few people suggest, be another way to allow them to have a potency edge over the other two healers by allowing them to be less piety reliant, and thus be able to stack more crit and det.

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Well, let's hope they have the numbers of a DPS class, because so far classes with strong personal DPS have struggled to find parties constantly. SAM mains can tell you about it. Even as buffed as the BLMs are, they aren't still meta. Also how does this help with the "healer should heal" mentality they were going about? Stronger heals means less healing, less healing means more downtime, less lilies and so on.

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Ast being able to more reliably buff group dps also means it\\'s easier to adjust their numbers should they once more prove to utterly replace whm with their raid utility. Having the factor of rng being as erratic makes it harder to parse their raid contribution. Let\\'s not pretend most of the ast gameplay loop wasnt fishing for balance and settling for Spear or arrow if we couldn\\'t get said balance.

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And still, how much does their utility must be nerfed for them to be replaced by WHM? 1% utility is still more than 0. Hell, SMN utility is nothing to write home about and is still more seek after than BLM, and had to be nerfed multiple times. Nerf healing and potency? Good luck not making AST useless then. Also two issues with the statements about the cards:

-Why literally trash the whole system when they could have done other things to nerf it? Take out Royal Road, nerf the Balance, buff the other cards. Now everything is balance with 1 out of 3 seals.

-Why do you think fishing for balance or Spear was boring? The system was build upon RNG and using the best with what you got. It rewarded quick thinking and decision making based on your party composition. It needed fixing, sure, but the base was good, mechanically many people like it. New system will be stronger, sure, but I doubt it will offer too much engaging gameplay.

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While Chain is still a dps gain, its value is diminished now that brd doesn\\'t rely on crit procs and monk has a higher rate of proccing their crit proc.

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Still better than 0

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Juggling 5000 dots isnt what makes scholar a scholar, it\\'s the shields, the damage mitigation, the pet, the cooldowns. Bringing up how sch functioned in older ff games is irrelevant seeing how red mages dont juggle debuffs and refresh in this game or that dark knight isnt a dps that cuts itself to deal aoe damage to its foes.

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No, you are arbitrarily choosing what or what not constituted part of its identity. The truth is that the DoTs where part of our kit since the start of the game. And how is not valid to bring the old representation when speaking of identity? everyone seem to quick to bring the "identity" argument up, yet lack real reasons to back their argument. Also RDM was always a mage that had White and Black spells, debuffs and refresh is something from FF XI. And the "FF XIV works with a trinity system, so classes should be changed to fit", yet here we have Dancer, which has all of the buffs while being a DPS. Who literally has skill focused on not dpsing to buff, which I didn't think SE will be brave enough to implement. SCH identity wasn't the same as FF3, but don't act as it hasn't be part of our kit forever, otherwise we wouldn't be so frustrated.

Also, all of it. All of what you have just said still doesn't address the main issue. How any of it means that they healers are more mechanically engaging and fun?

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

Well, let's hope they have the numbers of a DPS class, because so far classes with strong personal DPS have struggled to find parties constantly. SAM mains can tell you about it. Even as buffed as the BLMs are, they aren't still meta. Also how does this help with the "healer should heal" mentality they were going about? Stronger heals means less healing, less healing means more downtime, less lilies and so on.

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They still have access to party-wide mitigation and their Asylum is now an alternative to having a Monk's Mantra, that sounds like a form of utility to me. Either way they now an edge over the other two healers in their raw dps. As long as they can work it out to where the additional damage is equivalent or greater then the pdps+rdps of the other two healers then it will technically be balanced.

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

Also two issues with the statements about the cards:
-Why literally trash the whole system when they could have done other things to nerf it? Take out Royal Road, nerf the Balance, buff the other cards. Now everything is balance with 1 out of 3 seals.-
-Why do you think fishing for balance or Spear was boring? The system was build upon RNG and using the best with what you got. It rewarded quick thinking and decision making based on your party composition. It needed fixing, sure, but the base was good, mechanically many people like it. New system will be stronger, sure, but I doubt it will offer too much engaging gameplay.

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I never said it was boring. I said that they made the system more consistent so that it's easier to balance. They changed the rng mechanic from the effect of the card, to the seals you generate. And then they reworked the tools you got to further skew the system into your favor. Instead of holding your cards til you get the best set up now you'll be constantly using the cards and constantly providing smaller bursts of damage increases with one moderate payoff every few minutes.

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

No, you are arbitrarily choosing what or what not constituted part of its identity. The truth is that the DoTs where part of our kit since the start of the game. And how is not valid to bring the old representation when speaking of identity? everyone seem to quick to bring the "identity" argument up, yet lack real reasons to back their argument. Also RDM was always a mage that had White and Black spells, debuffs and refresh is something from FF XI. And the "FF XIV works with a trinity system, so classes should be changed to fit", yet here we have Dancer, which has all of the buffs while being a DPS. Who literally has skill focused on not dpsing to buff, which I didn't think SE will be brave enough to implement. SCH identity wasn't the same as FF3, but don't act as it hasn't be part of our kit forever, otherwise we wouldn't be so frustrated.

Also, all of it. All of what you have just said still doesn't address the main issue. How any of it means that they healers are more mechanically engaging and fun?

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Red Mage also tended to be able to wear heavier armor and shields and Dancer almost always dealt in debuffs as opposed to buffs. So any point about identity of a job in this game compared to other ff games is a shaky, if not pointless, angle to go about.

The dots where a part of our kit as a result of us being an off-branch of a dps base class. Which whether or not we like it is something SE has seemed quite eager to change.

Remember the Bane nerf? That was scholar being punished for a tool that was somewhat reasonable for their dps output but made the smn the king of aoe dps in HW. This is the fundamental issue with SCH being tied to ACN. It had to be factored into any balance issue tied to SMN. Any change necessary to bring one or the other in line would inevitably cause an effect on the other.

So now SHB is severing SCH away from ACN further and while we had to take a hit in our dps rotation, we are still going to have similar numbers and then game play flow is still looking to be similar. But we're no longer going to be doing weird things like using an aoe nuke to optimize our single target rotation and using a resource meant to fuel our healing and mitigation for damage.

As for your question about fun. Fun is subjective. I have fun playing a healer, utilizing a basic dps rotation that I can drop at any second to react to a situation with the appropriate healing or mitigation tool, so anything that makes scholar feel more like a healer is a positive to me.

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They still have access to party-wide mitigation and their Asylum is now an alternative to having a Monk's Mantra, that sounds like a form of utility to me. Either way they now an edge over the other two healers in their raw dps. As long as they can work it out to where the additional damage is equivalent or greater then the pdps+rdps of the other two healers then it will technically be balanced.

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DPS is king, offensive utility will still be prioritized. I will grant though, that for progress parties it may be good. Now, the second statement is its own can of worms. If WHM has such a strong pDPS, then it must be so because it is expected to DPS a lot. If so, then the argument of "healing will be constant, there will be no down time" is not going to happen, as to keep competitive then it must have downtime, as very few of its heals are oGDC. Furthermore, to access its stronger Spell, it must use GCD heals, so it will lose DPS regardless if we want to use Misery in Raid situations. There is a very good reason why BLM and SAM have 0 support, they must focus on their DMG output constantly too keep big numbers. So for WHM dps to be useful, they must become Green DPS, and fights must be designed so you don't have to heal as much. Also, to reach that point anyway, as you said, it had to have better pDPS than the rDPS of the others. Thats a lot of damage, like, really a lot. There is no way its going to happen.

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I never said it was boring. I said that they made the system more consistent so that it's easier to balance. They changed the rng mechanic from the effect of the card, to the seals you generate. And then they reworked the tools you got to further skew the system into your favor. Instead of holding your cards til you get the best set up now you'll be constantly using the cards and constantly providing smaller bursts of damage increases with one moderate payoff every few minutes.

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And again, being better doesn't mean being more engaging. You could turn the system in a single spell that gives you Spread Balance, and it will be more constant and powerful, it isn't as fun. And it will be easier to balance, of course. Doesn't mean again, it is fun. If all the classes where the same, it will be easy to balance, but it wouldn't be fun. Just numbers, not mechanics.

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Red Mage also tended to be able to wear heavier armor and shields and Dancer almost always dealt in debuffs as opposed to buffs. So any point about identity of a job in this game compared to other ff games is a shaky, if not pointless, angle to go about.

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Here is the thing. I didn't bring up the "identity" argument. You and many others did. What I did was to point out how is flawed, both by FF XIV own standards (SCH originally and through most of the live of FF XIV had DoTs and a more complex DPS rotation as part of its identity), or by the saga Standars (it was never a pure healer to begin with)

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So now SHB is severing SCH away from ACN further and while we had to take a hit in our dps rotation, we are still going to have similar numbers and then game play flow is still looking to be similar. But we're no longer going to be doing weird things like using an aoe nuke to optimize our single target rotation and using a resource meant to fuel our healing and mitigation for damage.

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While yes, separating SCH from ACN is necessary, it doesn't excuse poor class design. You say our DPS rotation must take a hit. OK. Then why don't they give us something in return to fill the downtime? AST at least still have the cards, despite being simplified, even if nerfed. WHM and SCH are now in the same situation where their downtime is going to be extremely dull. And the better you get at healing, the more downtime there will be. You can say "they will fix it", but things is, they said the same about WHM and healers balance, and so far I fear they haven't done enough after 2 years. Must I wait other 2 years?. Also, why is it weird or bad to use Aether for both? Is not like you HAD to use ED, it was flexibility on how and when to spend aether. Really the only one that actually was "risk" vs "reward" kind of thing is Bane.

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As for your question about fun. Fun is subjective. I have fun playing a healer, utilizing a basic dps rotation that I can drop at any second to react to a situation with the appropriate healing or mitigation tool, so anything that makes scholar feel more like a healer is a positive to me.

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Why is somehow SCH more of a healer now than before? The rotation wasn't even that complex, and the majority of their tools where mitigation and healing. In that regard, really there is almost no difference with ShB, our healing kit was and will be fantastic. The rest of our kit not so much. But never mind that, you say fun is subjective, but the thing is, there are things is that, in a way, it isn't as subjective. There is a real truth about about the design of Healers up to this point; if you wanted to focus on healing, even if it meant little DPS or even 0, you could. The game allowed you too, Healing is you main duty, and DPS just filled the void. If you wanted to take risk and excel, you DPS and optimize your heals as much as possible. SCH in particular requires to manage 2-3 DoTs, weave numerous heals and manage aether for offense, and this complexity is liked by the players that like to DPS. So we have both kind of players, the Pure Healer and the DPS healer. Which one is more fun? Neither, both are fun for different people is subjective. But now, the class has taken what make it fun for the DPS crowd, making it closer to the other healers. This is a fact, this makes it less fun, as the array of gameplay styles it offers has been reduced.

Well I'm sorry that I'm not inclined to view these changes with negativity. Like I said, someone's gotta be the cheerful optimist.

I wish we had some healers jobs like the Cleric one in Aion.

Cleric has some powerful/interesting healing skills and some dps skills with even a rng combo rotation and even a root skill for entraving ennemies and has to manage MPs.

Like Dodoku said, until now, as healer, we had the choice to just heal or to use fully our skills and add some dps when it was possible for being always active and add a "rythm" to our job.

Now it looks like they remove this choice and it sucks.

For those who will say "don't worry you will be able to dps you have still few dps skills" i think it's just an illusion cause of those 10k mp cap. We won't be able to spam those skills cause we will be fast out of mana + they remooved "protect", "largesse", "rouse" for the fairy any kind of boost healing or mp regen which help a lot to heal and dps at same time....so they force us to play in a certain way a job we have played years in our personnal way?

In parallel they remove TP for DPS/Tanks so they can spam what they want with none limit, wtf.

I had fun to heal random people i met, or during hunts, or raids 24, even npcs in content (hello Estinien o/) with my fairy, now it's over. It was fun to have the feeling to be a "team" with my pet, to be able to cast a skill while she was casting something else, now it's over, it was fun to be able to summon fast my "other" fairy for using a spell like esunaga then recall the other one for continuing the fight, now it's over even her lost a part of her identity (omg so this is the SCH fairy glam you were talking about SE? aaaww wonderful, ty), it was fun to deploy my shields from her now it's over, it was fun to put my dots + bane + shadowflare then use rouse on her for being able to spam miasma 2 and use 3 times energy drain alternatly with it for regaining some MP then focus on healing again, now it's over.
It was fun to /pet my fairy or use emotes with her (they could have add some emotes to the fairy like a /highfive it would be cool), now it's over, it was fun to use my sacred soil anywhere, now it's over....

For which damn reason SE has changed all that?!

Seriously how can you, my SCH brothers and sisters, be happy with all those changes???!!!!

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It was fun to /pet my fairy or use emotes with her (they could have add some emotes to the fairy like a /highfive it would be cool), now it's over, it was fun to use my sacred soil anywhere, now it's over....

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If it is of any help, I think at least we can target them to use emote still. Don't quote me on that, not 100% sure, but I think we can. Also, if they really had to take away our DPS skills, you would have though they could have upped the pet management mechanics of our job to compensate, make it more important, give them more skills or something. Perhaps have like SMN the skill to change them on the fly and use them for different purposes (Perhaps heals/buff or Heals/DPS or something similar). It would have done the job of both filling downtime so the simpler DPS rotation isn't as bad, as we will actually be able to balance it with other things to optimize, while offering a stronger identity as a pet healer to compensate our lost kit as dps. Using Aether for buffs through the fairy may had been good too. I know it would break the balance between WHM and SCH/AST even more, but they could also give WHM more utility in this scenario.

Also on the topic of WHM, they really need some love. We had lost so many skills through expansions, and now we are very slowly playing catching up.

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it was fun to use my sacred soil anywhere, now it's over....

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I'm not well aware of this. Why cannot we place Sacred Soil anywhere now? What did they changed?

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(they could have add some emotes to the fairy like a /highfive it would be cool)

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This is a genius idea, even if it may not be possible.