Stop telling healers to go play dps

In the end the content will determine what healers should do. Right now we have more dps checks than heal checks. I hope in Shb we got encounters with a heavy healing check.

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Originally Posted by Dreamsoap

I'm not personally invested heavily on whether healers become pure healing only or provide a trickle of dps, as long as there's no gaps that feel like you're left useless. That's the only thing I'm iffy about and it's just more "wait and see". It doesn't look wholly promising, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they might've changed encounters to compensate for the changes.

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The gaps are to be filled with your offensive skills. There is no question about DPSing during downtime; that's not changing. The speculation is how big those gaps will be. The only healer that really has something to worry about is SCH, because about 2/3 of their current DPS kit is going away. They used more buttons than either WHM or AST on GCDs when applying pDPS, and now they are basically like the other two and will be spamming their filler spell during downtime in order to optimize.

This is where the record broken saying of 'we have to just try the content' actually does apply. Whether or not the content adjusts for greater healing requirements, SCHs are the healing job that are going to have to find out if they can adjust to a new identity.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Think the general fear people have is SE is not going to make it so healing is that demanding and thus putting healers in the situation they are in now with far simpler dps tool kits. A happy medium is if they increased the amount of healing required while also expanding heir own damage potential.

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As I said in my last post, this applies only to SCH. WHM and AST already are and have been in this situation for the longest time now. WHM lost Aero 3, but womp womp. It was a pretty animation that was more affective on bosses than on trash since your GCDs were better spent on Holy.

How do you increase both the healing requirement and expand their damage potential? Their damage potential is based on how much healing is required. Expanding their damage potential is the opposite direction the devs want to go, and that healers need to go. Perhaps I am reading into it wrong though and you mean more ways in which to cause damage, or basically bring WHM and AST up to where SCH is currently? Again though, these are not DPS jobs.

I don't think the fear has anything to do with the 'if' SE increases healing requirements. Players are worried about the direction the devs are clearly going with healers. If you are of the DPS mindset, and actually want healers to be able to do more damage, or have more ways to go about doing it, chances are pretty high that fear is justified.

Sure. Just as soon as healers stop complaining about changes that they haven't even played yet.


:D

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't think the fear has anything to do with the 'if' SE increases healing requirements.

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Nope, i'm def worried they arent gonna increase healing requirements by considerable margin, since the fact that they were surprised people noticed it (quickly) does not suggest considerable changes. Unless they're gonna increase it gradually for 80 content? But that would also suggest none of the 1-70 content was changed.

I mean, a shift from dps/heal from 80/20 to something like 40/60 has a lot more impact on healer's gameplay than, say, removal of protect, yet second was mentioned in live letter, and all we have about first is one interview reply where they were surprised, really?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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That has always been my personal desire with healers that SE embrace the concept that FFXIV lends itself to a more aggressive playstyle and expand healers dps tool kits. The point I was trying to make is even if SE ups the required gcds on healing verse dps to 50/50 the point remains that the dps tool kit for healers is extremely basic while still fun to a degree.

Sure 6.0 healers end of the day will function as they do now with time and practice and that is the issue I have healers will still have downtime and dps will still be an expectation but instead of double downing on that reality and providing healers will more dps variety they appear to have gone down the expand the healing aspect. Which is important but I personal wish SE accepted the fact that healers have a more aggressive playstyle.

I would rather every dungeon be scaled to give me a reason to do my job than have more healing tools than I will ever need and be forced to be a discount DPS. If I wanted to DPS, I'd have mained one.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

I would rather every dungeon be scaled to give me a reason to do my job than have more healing tools than I will ever need and be forced to be a discount DPS. If I wanted to DPS, I'd have mained one.

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Er... not a fan of this. You should be able to outgear a dungeon. It's important to feel as though your character is growing more powerful as you advance.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Which is important but I personal wish SE accepted the fact that healers have a more aggressive playstyle.

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I think the day they truly accept that is the day they factor healer offense into DPS checks. Giving healers an even more diverse and unique kit in which to DPS encourages that aggressive playstyle. This playstyle also isn't favored by all healers, myself included.

One of the reasons why I prefer 24-man over all other content is because even though the fights are still scripted, I honestly have no idea who is going to dodge what, and I do have to use GCDs on healing and even reserve ogcd heals in some cases. Even with SCH who has the most diverse offensive kit, I actually feel more engaged into the fight when I have to actually heal it.

I'm bored when I have to DPS. It's better than standing around doing nothing, but it is hardly engaging to me. Sure we could give healers more interesting DPS kits, but I have to go back to the encouraging of a playstyle they seemingly want to go away. Of course, I can't speak for everyone but I know I am not alone with being a healer who wants more responsibility actually healing. I don't want 1-1-1-1 either, but also not a big fan of 1-2-3 on healers. I want more, "Heal that dude! he gonna die!"

Personally id find it far more engaging to leave the simplified dps kits on the healers and then focus more on the support role with healers rather than physical ranged.

Adding buffs to the party or even turning scholar into a debuff oriented healer for it’s support could be really intriguing, but thats just my opinion

I think that people are perhaps jumping to conclusions a bit too much.
People do this with the comments that they made about support too, they said that they didn't want jobs to be completely relient on each other in the sense that they buff each others damage specifically so much that you '' have to '' take them.
And people took that comment as a '' omg, support is gone u guys ''.

The way that I interpret this whole healer dps thing is that they simply want there to be a bit more of an emphasis on the healing part.
But our dps will still be there.

People are acting like healers are losing ALL of their dps skills. No, they're just being brought down to AST's amount of dps skills, which really only hurts SCH (and WHM a bit). Tbh, SCH was my least favorite healer because I felt overwhelmed by the amount of dps skills I needed to do to match the output of my whm or ast. Now I feel more inclined to try out SCH again and I'm actually happy about it.

I don't mean to sound rude, but there is always SMN if you want that feeling back.

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Originally Posted by Freerider

I mean yeah I get that but why make a role simpler and push your career healers that can both dps and heal. It's extremely frustrating.

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How it is frustrating if u dont even know how it will be? There are ways u can still dps, or the healing on bosses from shadowbringers will be so intense u will not need to keep dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

People are acting like healers are losing ALL of their dps skills. No, they're just being brought down to AST's amount of dps skills, which really only hurts SCH (and WHM a bit). Tbh, SCH was my least favorite healer because I felt overwhelmed by the amount of dps skills I needed to do to match the output of my whm or ast. Now I feel more inclined to try out SCH again and I'm actually happy about it.

I don't mean to sound rude, but there is always SMN if you want that feeling back.

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Being brought down to "AST level" means the SCH lost 5 attacks.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

People are acting like healers are losing ALL of their dps skills. No, they're just being brought down to AST's amount of dps skills, which really only hurts SCH (and WHM a bit). Tbh, SCH was my least favorite healer because I felt overwhelmed by the amount of dps skills I needed to do to match the output of my whm or ast. Now I feel more inclined to try out SCH again and I'm actually happy about it.

I don't mean to sound rude, but there is always SMN if you want that feeling back.

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I just find it funny that your reasoning for liking it is 100% selfish, but then basically imply that people are being selfish and whiny for being upset that SCH was changed...

Not a master at healing (only one 70 healer, and that's because Summoner- the other two are 60 for Makai achievement) but, I love being able to holy stuff. Fast cast holy, and just help delete trash packs. Lightspeed gravity is fun too but eh dance dance destroy your retinas holy is just spiffy :D. In general I DPS as healer because people just don't need to be 100% the whole fight and so it leaves quite a bit of time to do nothing if you didn't heal.. I don't like seeing or being left at sub 50% too long though so I don't do that to others lol (regen is bae for topping off DD, and I make sure the tank doesn't get near sweaty palms ;) ).

Although I've been in groups where I didn't use my mana for damage dealing because everyone touched all the orange and I needed all the mp to heal and raise and didn't want to be sitting on empty half way through XD.

I've never told a healer to stop (or start) dps'ing unless they're literally not healing me (i'm even fine if they mess up and I die a few times because they're trying to get into the groove of balancing both).. but I have to say when I see a healer never use holy in any of the giant balls of trash that I make.. after playing white mage myself I can't help but have an inner wail thinking of all the lost stun time and extra damage (vs just healing me pure).

Anyway if I don't die as tank I'm happy at the end, as tank healer tends to get my comm (I've made exceptions for excellent performance or attitude of the other roles but if you're a happy healer that tends to keep me alive it's probably a guaranteed commendation and if you're excellent / great attitude then it is 100% yours :D). I don't mind if a healer doesn't deal much damage so long as that means we're sailing smooth.

It'll be interesting to see how fun healers are, I'm sure they (I hope at least) didn't just strip a whole side of the job and leave nothing else fun to do. Like if they removed DD from healers in Stormblood then yeah.. that'd be quite a bit boring to me (except maybe when I'm in heavy hitting content I'm new to, because I'm not really that familiar with the job.. I'd probably be like "oh god oh god, tank buster is coming, time to throw the table of spells at the tank /stress lol").

I just want to say, whether healer DPS is a thing or not, a literal one button spam and a DoT is not -under any circumstance- enjoyable gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think the day they truly accept that is the day they factor healer offense into DPS checks. Giving healers an even more diverse and unique kit in which to DPS encourages that aggressive playstyle. This playstyle also isn't favored by all healers, myself included.

One of the reasons why I prefer 24-man over all other content is because even though the fights are still scripted, I honestly have no idea who is going to dodge what, and I do have to use GCDs on healing and even reserve ogcd heals in some cases. Even with SCH who has the most diverse offensive kit, I actually feel more engaged into the fight when I have to actually heal it.

I'm bored when I have to DPS. It's better than standing around doing nothing, but it is hardly engaging to me. Sure we could give healers more interesting DPS kits, but I have to go back to the encouraging of a playstyle they seemingly want to go away. Of course, I can't speak for everyone but I know I am not alone with being a healer who wants more responsibility actually healing. I don't want 1-1-1-1 either, but also not a big fan of 1-2-3 on healers. I want more, "Heal that dude! he gonna die!"

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I'm right there with you; I'd love to have more fights in normal mode like the Mist Dragon or the people constantly failing mechanics in 24-mans.

But I know Square is just too scared to make that the norm. After a few months, and once people have a little bit of gear, I have every reason to expect to be bored out of my mind, right back where we are now, trying to heal as much with ogcds so I can spend my gcds on spamming 1111 for damage.

Every expansion we get maybe one or two bosses where healers get to try; maybe there's a few trash pulls that get a little hairy, but Square just doesn't like healchecks as a general rule. I wouldn't complain if it weren't just a binary "this is the expansion's healcheck boss" or "maybe use an ogcd on a buster"

I do think losing Largesse and the tank +healing ability could make things more interesting, but only somewhat unintentionally.

i don't understand. healers are built pretty much as ranged casters who can also heal

I still dont see why increasing the amount of healing required in 71-80 content REQUIRES removal of DPS options.
Let the skilled healers have something to do once they have finished all the healing necessary at the moment.
You are one of the healers you are deathly afraid of DPS skills? Just dont use them, but dont use that as an excuse to strip away my skills.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

I still dont see why increasing the amount of healing required in 71-80 content REQUIRES removal of DPS options.
Let the skilled healers have something to do once they have finished all the healing necessary at the moment.
You are one of the healers you are deathly afraid of DPS skills? Just dont use them, but dont use that as an excuse to strip away my skills.

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The part everyone seems to forget is those skills are stripped away for every bit of content we have now, too. So 1-70 is going to be even more boring with the lack of things to do other than just heal.

While it may be netflix-friendly, that's not good gameplay.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The part everyone seems to forget is those skills are stripped away for every bit of content we have now, too. So 1-70 is going to be even more boring with the lack of things to do other than just heal.

While it may be netflix-friendly, that's not good gameplay.

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I can't wait for healing in SB content to be looking at your watch, and waiting for your 30/60 second skills to come back.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I can't wait for healing in SB content to be looking at your watch, and waiting for your 30/60 second skills to come back.

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Make sure you maximize dps by getting into auto attack range ;)

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Now we have the healer venting about ppl venting about healers venting about healing changes, which are not even in the game yet. "Grabs popcorn"

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"Well, the glacier's not here yet, so our course directly towards it is a non-issue." - The Captain, eating popcorn.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Do find the response kinda funny, I mean yeah we can all go DPS but then how are you gonna get into the dungeons or raids with no healer?

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Why do you think we have Trusts now? On that note, the then-obsolete "Player-Tanks" are scheduled to be replaced next expansion.

Do find the response kinda funny, I mean yeah we can all go DPS but then how are you gonna get into the dungeons or raids with no healer?

geezus there is always this thread like... once every month or something?

just play how you want. you will find people who will against your way yes, but you also will find people who dont mind it, the best you can do is just go to the "group" which suit your playstyle. just like in RL, there are people who eat their fries with and without ketchup.

iam with the "without" btw.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why do you think we have Trusts now? On that note, the then-obsolete "Player-Tanks" are scheduled to be replaced next expansion.

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Only issue is the Trusts so far are only known to be for ShB content. Unless it has been said, you will still need them for daily roulettes and raids

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Only issue is the Trusts so far are only known to be for ShB content. Unless it has been said, you will still need them for daily roulettes and raids

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Pretty sure it was stated to be ShB only, and only in story dungeons.
So you cant do your expert roulette with them, since at least half of those tend to be side quests.

These threads are predominant now because, no matter how you look at it, healers are getting slighted this expansion in a big way. The condensing of offensive capabilities is significant, the actual interesting and swingy card "mini game" was stripped of any diversity and lore (and yes, there are honestly times when spires/ewers/boles *are* useful), and all of the healing skills we're getting now are overly abundant, so much so that it feels like getting training wheels permanently affixed to the sweet ride that was once healers.

PS. Divine seal moved to role then basically moved to capstone 80 is.. insulting.

I have no problem with DPS skills being stripped off, as I chose to play healer to heal and I only DPS cause the alternative is to stand there with my staff up my ass. That said, if they're gonna remove DPS skills, I sure hope they've cranked up the healing quite a bit cause otherwise, it will not have been worth it.

I also hope they've accounted for all those solo instances which require you to at least be able to put out some damage in order to get through them.

it would be funny if people keep debating stuff like this and yoshi went snapped and do something like how he do stuff with the tank stance.

new patch, all healer jobclass is now more indepth. whm now need to "manually" grow their lily so they can use their lily skill (just like dancer doing their dance thingy), ast now playing their cards fulltime (over 50 combinations and complex stacking mechanic). sch now have full control over their pet, they have 2 now (went full pokemon)

then yoshi end up with "or you can ignore all that and help dps, up to you"

just a joke, pls dont triggered.

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

I just find it funny that your reasoning for liking it is 100% selfish, but then basically imply that people are being selfish and whiny for being upset that SCH was changed...

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Sorry, that was not my intention at all. But yeah if I like something it's 100% my opinion on why I like it; other people's opinions have little influence on whether I like something or not. My heart does go out to all you SCH mains, your job is getting gutted and that sucks. I'm just saying that I'm more likely to try it now. I didn't mean to cause any offense.

Honestly, full respect to all the healer mains that aren't jumping ship to go play a dps. I have never taken a dps to cap first. Since I began in arr I always did sch first. Won't be the case this time for I am not strong enough for this. Good luck to you all. Alphinaud/Urianger are calling bc I won't do dps ques either lol.

Crazy thought, but some people like the challenge of pushing as much DPS while keeping the party alive with minimal GCD healing.

Generally speaking, if you take a mechanic to the face that you shouldn't, and one of my off globals isn't up, I'm going to let you sit there until you absolutely need to be healed. The fights in this game are far too scripted with way too much downtime, which is why we get away with so much DPSing. Take O12S for example, right after Hello World, the only person needing spot healing for a good minute or so is the MT, everyone else just passive heals over time thanks to Eos ready for the next group wide damage.

The fact people in casual content don't know how to heal that efficiently boggles my mind sometimes. Us DPSing isn't bad, you over healing and spending unnecessary GCDs is.

with how dots are calculated (all tick at same time every 2.5ish seconds) and how damage is distributed, we will never have Pressure filled situations when it comes to healing, it will always be predictable unless it just one shots us. at the end of the day they can throw all the damage into mechanics, but so long as we do them correctly we won't ever be able ot not predict them. FF's raids will always be a dance, will always be predictable. Unless these new "damage calculations" change how the core game works server side, I don't see any of this rebalancing actually meaning anything.

This whole excuse to change healers seems silly and always will do, I wonder how they will address any of this at E3's live letter, infact I'm surprised with all the upset at late there has been no official presence on the forum to say concerns have been noted.

You'll be able to do DPS as healer in Shadowbringers. The difference is that it will be way easier this time.

Some healers, even top ones, are the main cause of wipes in raid content because they don't know how to DPS and heal at the same time, so I guess SE had to change healers a bit so they can keep doing DPS but be able to heal at the same time.

I'm not a healer and I'm really happy of the changes. I was really TIRED of healers not healing, and maybe you were having fun, but I wasn't.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

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And some DPS cant do their rotation and doge AoEs at the same time, but I dont support gutting them just because there are a few idiots out there.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

And some DPS cant do their rotation and doge AoEs at the same time, but I dont support gutting them just because there are a few idiots out there.

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Atleast it can be solved healing them to prevent a wipe. Well, only if the healer is healing, wich is something rare nowadays.

PS: they simplyfied DPS as well, by the way. They got some stackable OGCDs to simplify rotations, tanks as well, and I don't see any thread discussing about it.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Atleast it can be solved healing them to prevent a wipe. Well, only if the healer is healing, wich is something rare nowadays.

PS: they simplyfied DPS as well, by the way. They got some stackable OGCDs to simplify rotations, tanks as well, and I don't see any thread discussing about it.

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They did not simplify dps, they actually gave tanks more ways to dps, and DPS like BLM got more ways to keep DPSing... more buttons to DPS, Same with RDM.

What are you even saying lol. If anything having the DoT's as potent as they were and the accuracy checkes encouraged healers to not dps and put DoTs up then focus on healing as spells would miss and be a waste of mana. But these days we are encouraged to put as many GCD's as possible into the boss with large potency single target spells, thus contradicting what you are saying tbh.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

PS: ... DPS...

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There are complaints about some of the DPS role jobs as well, with MCH being the biggest DPS job up for discussion and complaints due to how their upcoming changes would be severely hampered by potential latency (among other complaints).
The difference being that they didn't have parts of their identities burned and skills and abilities stolen away for the sake of "balancing" the role (and, to be honest, probably moreso for the sake of highlighting the Dancer).

I also don't like this idea that, if a different role or job doesn't have a problem, others can't either, and/or they shouldn't be brought up. If you're "tired of seeing" something, use that selective sight, that hasn't seen any of the discussion regarding the other Jobs, and simply "not see" these threads that you don't want to see. In the meantime, we have a bone to pick, and we're gonna pick it.