Hairstyle Concerns for The New Races

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Originally Posted by zeylos

I honestly think that this makes me want that they only chose 1 single race even more, since if they did chances are they would have as much customization as the others, and while it's easy to make a female viera stand out its super hard to make a male hrot that stands out, so I wish SE only did 1 but to its fullest potential and with both genders. Guess we will have to see if they decide to add new hairstyles and the missing genders, lets hope so I guess

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Which race do you think they should have focused on?

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

My issue with this is that wearing armour will cover up fur patterns/colours, so what is the point of all that customization if its hidden ?

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I'm hoping with the inclusion of Viera and Hrothgar (Two races that don't exactly dress prudish) that we'll have more options that expose our character's skin/fur.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if this is done deal with the current Character Creation options in the Benchmark. I've been wanting SE to fix the CC since 2.0 and so far, they've been very adamant in not adding or changing anything from the CC other than Hairstyles (And the one(two?) face paint options they added). I'll be optimistic and give them the benefit of doubt that they quickly put the Benchmark together and didn't have time to add or make other options available to the two new races. Hrothgar's hair tied to the faces is a locked deal. That's not gonna change. Viera will get more hair options opened to them later on.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

After mulling over the different customization options, I've come to the conclusion that I prefer being able to change the pattern and colors of fur to being able to change hair styles and colors. The former offers a lot more variety. Ideally we should be able to do both independent of the selected face but it's very likely going to be one or the other because of memory limitations. It's amazing how much you can do with fur options and I hope we can have them available at the aesthetician since they replace hair customization for Hrothgar.

I had some fun with my current favorite character trying out how many styles I can wear by changing only the fur, tattoos and face paint.

Here's the original panther design:
https://i.imgur.com/fLX9uqZ.png

Tiger, snow leopard, black lion and cheetah styles seem nice.
https://i.imgur.com/YyPfj2Z.jpg

Less realistic styles can look pretty amazing as well. The right one is "snowflake obsidian" by MelodyCrystel. Really beautiful! I'll probably wear the blood runes on the left when leveling DRK for that extra edge.
https://i.imgur.com/Ly2Cv7f.png

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

From a game design perspective, and from perspective on the existing characters and their current state of customizations, it indeed makes zero sense and could possibly be a killer for Hrothgar when a player is given so much more customizability concerning the other races. I want to say the benchmark is what we get, on the other hand this sort of logic of perpetually spending $10 is illogical and of ill design.

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Oh, it should be known that the Hrothgar have an amazing amount of customization as is.
The most impressive in the game IMO. Kinda scuff at anyone that floats the notion that Hrothgar will suffer from same-face and all look alike because of this. As a Femroe player I know that of the few of use there are like most use the same face ... but the very nature of the race encourages creative use of skin color and hair color and glams. So no matter how many I saw on my old server ( the one where they weren't just soul less ERP bots >_>) we always looked uniquely different because of the colors and glams we picked. Viera on the other hand I see as being like Kitty girls. Sure, they have the option to go for the extremes ... but most people are gonna make a generic pretty white girl, pick one of the 8 hair styles and get lost in a sea of sameness because they don't pick options that let them stand out cause the race allows the "normal" appearance of a human. There is no "reg/ arvg/ normal" for giant furry people.

The reason I don't think this is all there is for Hrothgar is because ... it legit makes zero sense to leave things like this. This isn't like Scale Bois, they get a racial "extra bit" that comes with their face that they can't swap between ... but they can still wear horns they buy in the game, earn in the game/ in rl or buy on the mog station. It doesn't gate them from content. Even if the Hrothgar can't wear the default reg shared hairs I feel like both them and the Viera will get some version of what you've unlocked in the game or gotten on the Mogstation. Cause again, it makes no sense the way it is now. No other race needs you to pay money just to change hair styles so either face changing is gonna be a part going to the style guy or there's more to this. If not then I can deal with what we have now, but logically gating out people who pick a certain race makes no business sense.

Also I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment if they really think that SE would release both these races and say "lets give Viera all the hair annnnd give Hrothgar absolutely nothing". Either both are screwed or both are getting something more than this IMO. But w/e, I'll let the train run it's course.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

The reason I don't think this is all there is for Hrothgar is because ... it legit makes zero sense to leave things like this. This isn't like Scale Bois, they get a racial "extra bit" that comes with their face that they can't swap between ... but they can still wear horns they buy in the game, earn in the game/ in rl or buy on the mog station. It doesn't gate them from content. Even if the Hrothgar can't wear the default reg shared hairs I feel like both them and the Viera will get some version of what you've unlocked in the game or gotten on the Mogstation. Cause again, it makes no sense the way it is now.

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Pardon my cynicism but SE, while I have intense respect for their work on the game, have a history of doing things that make no sense.

The housing situation has been deplorable for several years and despite the tremendous amount of feedback, there has been very little improvement. There are a multitude of ways housing can be vastly improved without an overhaul, but SE seem disinterested in little other than token tweaks that often just swap one problem for another. If you're unaware about any of this, just take a peek at the housing forums and you will see the vast majority of posts are complaints from players who meet the prerequisites to get a house, but are unable to to get one.

For a few weeks SE decided to take away need rolls from alliance raids and this decision was made based on the looting habits of the japanese community. Not only did they not obviously not look at how the western audience handles loot, they also misjudged how the japanese felt because they ended up hating it as well. After huge community backlash from all regions need rolls were brought back.

While the next two are not from the game devs themselves, it's still SE.

The Mog Station got a shopping cart only very recently. Before you had to buy everything individually. Not only was this very awkward, it also caused problems for players who bought duplicates of items. For some players their banks flagged these duplicate purchases as suspicious activity and locked the account, which meant SE didn't get paid. And SE's reaction to this? Ban the account of the player even if they explained that the charge-back their bank did was an automated response they had no control over. For whatever weird reason SE also didn't take the items back even at the request of the player, which would make sense if they considered them not paid for. Why SE would rather lose sub money by blindly banning accounts instead of retain it by helping players is beyond my understanding.

There is a thread on the front page right now from a player who was reported for offensive language but the GM does not explain exactly what the offence was, leaving the player to guess what they did wrong. This is far from the first time I have seen something like this. I have been seeing this particular issue pop up every so often since I started playing.

So yea while I would love to assume everything is going to be okay for hrothgar and viera hairstyle customisation, I simply cannot. As I said before for the viera it could simply be an unfinished product because how hair is chosen is an identical process to the current races. I am not too worried about them. However hrothgar are a different story, which brings up questions about what happens at the aesthetician, and if bought hairstyles from sources such as the mog station will be unable to be used due to the fact that there is literally no customisation option labelled as "hairstyle".

I would like to believe SE will go about this logically. I completely agree that forcing players to fantasia to change hair and preventing them from using hairstyles they bought would be ridiculous. But SE have already done ridiculous things : /

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Also I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment if they really think that SE would release both these races and say "lets give Viera all the hair annnnd give Hrothgar absolutely nothing".

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Actually people who assume everything about the hair situation is going to be okay would be setting themselves up for disappointment if it turns out not to be okay. Whereas for me if things remain unchanged I'm already used to the concept and have already processed the disappointment, and if they do change to be just as good as the current races then I will plainly just be happy.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Which race do you think they should have focused on?

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regardless. I think viera are super cool and fit the game's asthetic a lot better than hrotgar, but this game can greatly use of a bestial race and it adds more overall. I'd be fine with either

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Pardon my cynicism but SE, while I have intense respect for their work on the game, have a history of doing things that make no sense.

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We'll see soon enough so there's really no use in this.

Like I said, I tend to take things at face value. As someone who plans to flip flop between both races I can't help but be just as concerned about Viera. To me it's clear their unique head issues are being handled together so if Hrothgar get screwed outta hair I fully expect Viera to be limited to their 8 styles as well. I accept that this is diffidently a possible outcome and I'll still roll with both regardless ... but from even the most basic common sense they should know that leaving things this way will turn many off from these races. It also directly hurts players who do change into them if this is all there is.

So when ShB releases we will see. If things stay this way then people will understandable throw a fit. Hopefully this gets addressed in some way before we have to find out on our own.

So yeah, don't take me spit balling solutions as blind optimism. As far as I'm concerned this is all we get and they do some stuff to help Hrothgar out like unlocking the hairs or allowing freedom to change heads potion free at least. But when I apply logic I think there's more to this as it doesn't even make cartoon sense to leave it this way ... so we'll see.

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Actually people who assume everything about the hair situation is going to be okay would be setting themselves up for disappointment if it turns out not to be okay. Whereas for me if things remain unchanged I'm already used to the concept and have already processed the disappointment, and if they do change to be just as good as the current races then I will plainly just be happy.

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That's pretty much what I said lol

I am worried, 98% of the time with FFXIV, what you see is what you get. The fact that we are getting glasses on the new races is great news, but I am worried for the hairstyles. I spend time, effort and real money to obtain, I do hope SE gives both of the new races the option to use current FFXIV hairstyles. I dont mind waiting for few months, aslong as I know there is a schedule for adding these hairstyles.

If the current hairstyles wont be added to Viera and Ronso, then SE needs to be honest and say this right away, letting us hope for something that wont be added, is cruel.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

in the german benchmark it says that you can right click to use a pin and then if you click on the box at the top only those will be shown that have a pin. So it seems that its simply a way to show only those hairstyles that you want.

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That's going to be a really useful feature for deciding between two or three hairstyles that are scattered around the list.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

I tend to try to take things at face value.

Viera have normal human faces unlike the HROTHGAR. They weren't gonna get glasses until HROTHGAR got them to.

In the benchmark Viera have only unique race hair like the HROTHGAR.. also like them they only have 8 hair styles and a version that adds a lil bit to it. ( Viera hair and Viera hair plus bangs is no different than HROTHGAR mane and mane plus a braid or side burns or w/e)

They were both described as having unique heads.

Seems clear to me that they are a packaged deal. If one expects one to get more hair it seems like the other would get more as well. So yeah, I'm kinda expecting both to release with only what they have or that plus mog station hairs and the contest reward styles.

Question is what's gonna happen with HROTHGAR when we meet the hair style man. Could see them allowing us to cchange everything but the race pretty much seeing how you gotta change face to change manes.

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I'm not sure about how to interpret the "no headgear" thing. It sounded like they may have just turned off visible headgear entirely because some items wouldn't work. (And did I read correctly that Fran's headdress is actually a customisation option for one of the faces, rather than equippable gear? In that case they might not want any helms to be visibly equippable because it would clash.)


I also think the "packaged deal" thing might be in place, as you say, so they may not have wanted to give visible gear to one but not the other, even if it would have looked fine on the Viera from the beginning.

But I'm not so sure about the argument that "if one expects one to get more hair it seems like the other would get more as well", because they're not equivalent at a programming level.

As I understand it, Viera hairstyles are equivalent to Hrothgar fur patterns. Not manes.

It's not about them being the same thing at a "real person" level. It's about the character creator functions, which seems to be a rigid template with a certain number of categories, and a certain number of choices in each of those categories.

There's a category that has lots of choices and the ability to add more, and for every race up until now, that has been used for hairstyles. But for Hrothgar it has been used for fur patterns. Meanwhile the Hrothgar face-and-manes are in a small, never-expanded category that only holds a fixed number of options.

Viera have the potential to have more hairstyles added upon the game release, because they're using the category that can be expanded and added to. And Hrothgar have the potential for more fur patterns - but not faces.

Perhaps it's better to not think of Hrothgar as having hairstyles at all. They have manes, which are a fairly constant style and length, and they don't get changed a lot.

(Which of course still raises the question of what will happen with paid hairstyles... but for now it's better to assume there will be an equivalent unique fur-pattern, and be pleasantly surprised if they're able to implement it as hair. But probably they regard it the same way they already regard gendered Mog Station gear if you Fantasiaed to the other gender - no exchanges, you just can't equip that item any more.)


It's possible that what's in the benchmark is all we'll get. But Viera have more potential for extra hairstyles than Hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

A single Viera face may have more hairstyle options because of how the Hrothgar have them tied to Faces but they have overall the same number of hairstyle (minus 1 but it's "The Fran" one) across the Race.

Viera have 8 hairstyles with each of them having a bang version and a bangless version (except the first one which has one more with "The Fran") for a total of 16(+1) = 17 hairstyles.
Hrothgar have 4 Faces with 2 hairstyles each = 8 BUT you can had bits to them with Facial Features making it 16 hairstyles.

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I think the issue with this debate is that people are only comparing the number of hairstyles, when the question is the number of face and hairstyle combinations possible.


If you approach it from choosing your character's face first:

- Viera have four face options, then each of those four faces has 17 hairstyle options. 4 x 17 = 68.

- Hrothgar have eight options, then each of those eight faces has two hairstyle options. 8 x 2 = 16.


If you pick hairstyle first:

- Each of Viera's 17 hairstyles has a choice of four faces. 17 x 4 = 68.

- Each of Hrothgar's 16 hairstyles has a choice of one face. 16 X 1 = 16.


But again, this is because Hrothgar manes are not intended to be the equivalent "lots of interchangeable variety" customisation. You need to do the maths comparing their choice of fur patterns to Viera's choice of hairstyles, otherwise you might as well be arguing that Elezen have more customisation options than Miqo'te because you compared Elezen's choice of hairstyles with Miqo'te's choice of tail shapes.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I think the current hairstyles clip with viera ears, that's why they weren't able to put them with the current global hairstyles.

They have said they are working to make helmets and stuff work with them though so I think hairstyles may go along with that and we will see them later.

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Whatever the reason is for not showing Viera with additional hairstyles here, I don't think clipping is it - because several of the Viera-specific hairstyles already clip through/under their ears. They clearly haven't thought about it - they've just made "pretty feminine hairstyles" and not something that actually makes sense for Viera ear placement.

(Whereas Hrothgar manes make sense, presumably because the head-and-mane has been modelled all at once by a single person, instead of separate work on the character models and hairstyle models. At least that's the only way I can picture it happening.)

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Originally Posted by Fumpr

Also, not a concern, more of a gripe, how the heck did no one on the team working on hroth think of a "bald" (not furless) hairstyle? I'd gladly play face 1 with no hair.

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An interesting thought I'd already had regarding this: if they really are a lion-based race, and the males have lion manes rather than human hair... what does that mean for the females?

It would be quite possible that culturally for them, long hair is masculine and short/no hair is feminine.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

My issue with this is that wearing armour will cover up fur patterns/colours, so what is the point of all that customization if its hidden ?

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That just means that Hrothgar players will have to pick more revealing gear that shows it off, if they want it to be visible.

Au Ra are already in a similar situation, and I pick things for my alt character that keep his scales visible as much as possible.

That said, they probably should have had more fur-patterned patches (all up the arms, at least) since "underdressed" gear in this game tends to be a sleeveless shirt and gloves.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

From a game design perspective, and from perspective on the existing characters and their current state of customizations, it indeed makes zero sense and could possibly be a killer for Hrothgar when a player is given so much more customizability concerning the other races. I want to say the benchmark is what we get, on the other hand this sort of logic of perpetually spending $10 is illogical and of ill design.

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Not everyone wants to be able to change hairstyles constantly, though. As long as the character design looks good, I'm more likely to stick with it and not change it.

Having the Hrothgar's hair tied to the face is a big issue imo. Viera are and will be in a good spot. Hrothgar needs some more work

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Originally Posted by zeylos

regardless. I think viera are super cool and fit the game's asthetic a lot better than hrotgar, but this game can greatly use of a bestial race and it adds more overall. I'd be fine with either

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Yeah, I don't think SE is equipped to handle something as complex as the Hrothgar. They should have just given us Male viera alongside female viera. At least we would have hairstyles, and some lithe abs to look at.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, I don't think SE is equipped to handle something as complex as the Hrothgar. They should have just given us Male viera alongside female viera. At least we would have hairstyles, and some lithe abs to look at.

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I'm honestly kinda sad because of how male hrotgar were made. They could have given them things such as 4-legs running animations or fairstyles that look like manes. I think that charr is a very very good example of a beast race and SE sadly wasn't able to hit that point with the race imo. I hope the female hrotgar will be made better I guess, and that males get more options

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I think the current hairstyles clip with viera ears, that's why they weren't able to put them with the current global hairstyles.

They have said they are working to make helmets and stuff work with them though so I think hairstyles may go along with that and we will see them later.

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The sad thing is that I have seen at least one Viera hairstyle that clips with their shoulder. So honestly that would be a bad argument in my view, especially since we have a certain "ball" hairstyle that looks really strange on the kittens because they would not change it for them. IMO let the people decide if they want to have to deal with that or not.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This math doesn't add up nicely. Every viera face can have any viera hairstyle. This is not the case for hrothgar. Claiming that the math doesn't lie in this context is like telling two groups of people that they have an even amount of clothing, but in the case of one group they fit only half of them. So while both groups have the same amount of clothing, only one group can wear everything. The math only looks tidy when you don't bother to think about the end user experience.

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The math doesnt also add up if you simply look at this with "one person creates one character". If you want a character you can only choose one face. With female Viera you can use one face and with that 8 different hairstyles and one variation for this thanks to the ones with or without bangs. If you choose a face from Hrothgar you can choose two hairstyles for it and maybe some small variations to this later but in the end its still 8 vs. 2.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The same could be said about hair and helmets though. I understand that the players who want to enjoy the fur choices without being in various stages of undress will be out of luck.

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They could have done both. I mean we get racial tattos, so maybe make the fur the tattoo option and the color of the fur would be the one you choose for your hair. This way all that want different fur can have it. At the same time have the hairstyles unlocked from the faces and those would be happy too. I at least have my character much more without a headgear (or the option on to turn them off) so hairstyles are important for me.

IMO making fur that important in customization for the Hrothgar just feels bad because that will also restrict the glamour option for this race even more since you cant see it with most gear. (And at the same time I question why it was even so important to give us headgear at launch if they have the same hair anyway all the time. But that of course is just my opinion)

there is something i feel they messed up or was a odd decision with Hroth the leopard/coerl face
how it has "tattoos" but they are spikes that stick out his face not much of a tattoo

Maybe SE had no choice but to tie hairstyles to faces for the Hrothgar due to the evident time crunch but this is arguably the worst aspect of their character creation (limited color palette for their feature colors aside) and it makes the face/horn-locking of the Au Ra look like far less of an issue by comparison. Viera I can see getting the rest of the universal hairstyles because at least their hair is separate and their head shapes aren't too different from other races. But with Hrothgar, not so much. And this greatly concerns me.
I get that character creation is limited to a certain number of categories per race so it's not like they can add "Hairstyle" as a separate category, but if I could sacrifice one of the current categories it would probably be the "Fang Size" one; I'm obviously not fully aware of how technical limitations work, but I would reallocate the fangs to the "Facial Features" category.
I don't know, I guess we'll just have to see how it all pans out...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure about how to interpret the "no headgear" thing. It sounded like they may have just turned off visible headgear entirely because some items wouldn't work. (And did I read correctly that Fran's headdress is actually a customisation option for one of the faces, rather than equippable gear? In that case they might not want any helms to be visibly equippable because it would clash.)


I also think the "packaged deal" thing might be in place, as you say, so they may not have wanted to give visible gear to one but not the other, even if it would have looked fine on the Viera from the beginning.

But I'm not so sure about the argument that "if one expects one to get more hair it seems like the other would get more as well", because they're not equivalent at a programming level.

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Not really anything worth debating seeing as they can put w/e they want in "fur patterns" tab (even you point that out). I've already floated the idea of them splitting up the current/ reward/ unlock hair styles among the face options we have as to avoid having to make them all work on each head and placing them in fur pattern tab.

But yes, this is a big deal. They make sure to make many reward hair styles open to both genders because they are for everyone. Heck, they literally made Cloud's hair the reward for an art contest. To gate the new races from such things would be a horrible decision. Tis why I see this as uncharted territory and say we should wait and see what becomes of it.

I fully accept that this could be all there is for both but there are just too many things that wouldn't make sense from a game dev or business stand point as this would clearly be anti-player as all hell the way it is now.

I really do hope to roll into ShB and click on Fur Pattern tab and see a selection of "beast version" hairs we already have and for Viera to get all the goods as well, they never once said that the problems with their heads would stop their hair game after all and they were hella open about no head gear.

But that would be a sweet surprise, not an expectation.

When new hairstyles are added in patches, I hope they give those styles or new ones to Viera and also add new fur patterns for Hrothgar. It wouldn't be nice to miss out on free updates because of race.

I don't think adding a fur pattern can really be on the same page as adding a hairstyle
Since there body will be covered most the time

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Originally Posted by Duskane

I don't think adding a fur pattern can really be on the same page as adding a hairstyle
Since there body will be covered most the time

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Again this preference is being stated as a fact. There is nothing in the game that forces you to wear helmets or full body armor. If either the hair styles or fur patterns are covered up, that is a conscious choice of the player and not a downside of the feature.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So what you're saying is

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right above.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Again this preference is being stated as a fact. There is nothing in the game that forces you to wear helmets or full body armor. If either the hair styles or fur patterns are covered up, that is a conscious choice of the player and not a downside of the feature.

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So what you're saying is being topless is the same as not wearing a hat.

Most head gear in this game doesn't cover the entire head and there is a toggle for head gear its a way more lenient piece hence why they are slowly working on adding head gear for viera and hroth,
Most chest piece for males are not revealing at all and there is no toggle to hide chest other than glamor yes obviously if a hrothgar wants to go topless to show there pattern its up to them
But chest fur pattern and hair styles really should not considered the same or something that should be added to replace hair styles.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Again this preference is being stated as a fact. There is nothing in the game that forces you to wear helmets or full body armor. If either the hair styles or fur patterns are covered up, that is a conscious choice of the player and not a downside of the feature.

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I'm going to assume from your edit that you reached your post limit.

If a hrothgar wants to show off their fur patterns then this immediately writes off a gigantic amount of gear from the game they can glam in to. This would actually include most of the job/role sets and mog station sets. The chest piece tends to be the centre-piece of a glam or gear set. In cases where the chest piece is a robe or long coat, the entire set will look different without it. Very few gear sets in the game look entirely different without the headpiece. Furthermore it is the female versions of gendered gear that tend to show off more skin, and hrothgar being only male...well you can work that out.

So no, saying that fur patterns and hairstyles are not equally good for showing off personal customisation isn't an opinion stated as a fact. It is a fact. Hairstyles can be displayed without compromising the look of most gear sets in the game. This is not the case for displaying chests and shoulders.

Never mind how new hairstyles are new models, and fur patterns so far are little other than texture swaps.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm going to assume from your edit that you reached your post limit.

If a hrothgar wants to show off their fur patterns then this immediately writes off a gigantic amount of gear from the game they can glam in to. This would actually include most of the job/role sets and mog station sets. The chest piece tends to be the centre-piece of a glam or gear set. In cases where the chest piece is a robe or long coat, the entire set will look different without it. Very few gear sets in the game look entirely different without the headpiece. Furthermore it is the female versions of gendered gear that tend to show off more skin, and hrothgar being only male...well you can work that out.

So no, saying that fur patterns and hairstyles are not equally good for showing off personal customisation isn't an opinion stated as a fact. It is a fact. Hairstyles can be displayed without compromising the look of most gear sets in the game. This is not the case for displaying chests and shoulders.

Never mind how new hairstyles are new models, and fur patterns so far are little other than texture swaps.

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Yeah, I get where they're coming from but IMO even if fur patterns add a great layer to customization it can't be THE thing they have in place of hair styles.

A part of me really thinks fur pattern tab will be where they get their hair styles from. But we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

obviously if a hrothgar wants to go topless to show there pattern its up to them

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That's all I was saying. The body will not be covered most of the time if the player chooses so. Full coverage armor is not some inevitable reality that makes body customization have no value.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

But chest fur pattern and hair styles really should not considered the same or something that should be added to replace hair styles.

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I agree, it would have been better to get both. The devs disagree. After the pointless male Viera hype I don't know why anyone would think we're getting something more than what's in the benchmark. The patterns are replacing hair customization and that's why I wished for more patterns in the future. When Au Ra gets more horns I'll ask for more hairstyles for Hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If a hrothgar wants to show off their fur patterns then this immediately writes off a gigantic amount of gear from the game they can glam in to. This would actually include most of the job/role sets and mog station sets. The chest piece tends to be the centre-piece of a glam or gear set. In cases where the chest piece is a robe or long coat, the entire set will look different without it. Very few gear sets in the game look entirely different without the headpiece. Furthermore it is the female versions of gendered gear that tend to show off more skin, and hrothgar being only male...well you can work that out.

Hairstyles can be displayed without compromising the look of most gear sets in the game. This is not the case for displaying chests and shoulders. Never mind how new hairstyles are new models, and fur patterns so far are little other than texture swaps.

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I agree with all of the above. It's interesting to me that a highly desired customization feature for a beast race is hair styles, a very human feature. Many people don't care for the fur options as much even though they can even alter what large cat species the character looks like. I guess the tall strong hunk factor is part of what draws players to the race, and not just the beast-like appearance.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So no, saying that fur patterns and hairstyles are not equally good for showing off personal customisation isn't an opinion stated as a fact. It is a fact.

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Well, I didn't say that they were equally good. The "body will be covered most the time" is what I was referring to as a player choice and preference. What you wrote about glamour sets doesn't contradict that it's a choice to cover up the fur.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Again this preference is being stated as a fact. There is nothing in the game that forces you to wear helmets or full body armor. If either the hair styles or fur patterns are covered up, that is a conscious choice of the player and not a downside of the feature.

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I'm sorry, but this is a bit ridiculous, but are you saying that :
Dressing (which is THE default and which will cover up markings and fur), is a conscious decision therefore it's the player's fault and not the feature's downside ?

Sorry, but that's the very definition of a feature with a downside. If you adhere to the default of the game's dress code, the default being that one is commonly clothed, then a feature which by default will be hidden is a downside of that feature. No one will see if unless you purposely remove your armor or a clothing allows for it to be somewhat seen.

I have to agree with Duskane here, hair style and markings are two different forms of player expression/choice and I don't see the logic in barring the one and only race from hairstyles. We're asking for carbon copies with the only difference is telling a colour palette swap, because let's be honest here we know what face is going to be the most widely used.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I agree with all of the above. It's interesting to me that a highly desired customization feature for a beast race is hair styles, a very human feature.

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It's because the beast race is being inserted into a game that was designed for races that have only or mostly skin, without customisable patterns on the body. So they are clothed in a manner that reflects this.

Most of the current gear sets are designed to either display the head or allow the option to, without compromising the design of the outfit. While chest and arms are very often completely covered by gear. So for many or even most hrothgar players they will end up in a situation where they can't see their fur patterns most of the time but they can always see their head. It's only natural to want to be able to extensively customise the part of your character that is on display the most.

Additionally hrothgar have manes which can clearly be styled like normal hair. Even the textures look like hair from other races. At least with au ra horns you can make the argument that they're hard as bone so they can't really be styled.

Also the eye is always drawn to the face whether you're looking at a human or a beast.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Well, I didn't say that they were equally good. The "body will be covered most the time" is what I was referring to as a player choice and preference. What you wrote about glamour sets doesn't contradict that it's a choice to cover up the fur.

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While you're correct that it's a choice, you can't deny that when choosing to not cover the fur patterns your choice in chest pieces is dramatically reduced to the point that most gear sets will no longer look like themselves. Due to typical gear design, I think it would be particularly difficult for casters and tanks to find gear to display the fur patterns as well as being able to look like the job or role that they are playing as...and also be something that the player actually likes enough to glam in to.

I think they going to have all shared hairstyles for both races . sicne there some hairstyles in moge staion and they must be aware of that thing . I think we going to get more at lunch 100%

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

If you adhere to the default of the game's dress code

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Which is a choice. I don't know why it's so controversial to challenge that "the body will be covered most the time". If my Hrothgar is able to show the fur pattern most of the time, it's not a bug or a hack. It's... player preference.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

a feature which by default will be hidden is a downside of that feature

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You are arguing that any modifications to the body, such as tattoos, scales, fur or chest hair, are all features with an inherent downside. I don't agree. It's up to the player's fashion preferences whether the placement of the feature is a downside or not.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

I have to agree with Duskane here, hair style and markings are two different forms of player expression/choice

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Yes, they are.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Dressing (which is THE default and which will cover up markings and fur)

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I just want to point out that the default outfit for Hrothgar does not cover the fur.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

you can't deny that when choosing to not cover the fur patterns your choice in chest pieces is dramatically reduced

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And I didn't deny this.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

When new hairstyles are added in patches, I hope they give those styles or new ones to Viera and also add new fur patterns for Hrothgar. It wouldn't be nice to miss out on free updates because of race.

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But adding a fur option each time just is even more work. Not only does it need to be unique enough but we already do get less hairstyles with each patch, who knows if something like that would even give us less.

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Originally Posted by Merry-Nightmare

I think they going to have all shared hairstyles for both races . sicne there some hairstyles in moge staion and they must be aware of that thing . I think we going to get more at lunch 100%

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I really hope that this is the case even if the options for Hrothgar hints at something else. Otherwise if we dont get them, why not tell us? Nothing worse than keeping such a big limitation from us when they simply could have told us...so maybe their silence is because they are coming..but why not write a post about this because they should know that we will notice this..

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But adding a fur option each time just is even more work. Not only does it need to be unique enough but we already do get less hairstyles with each patch, who knows if something like that would even give us less.

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Of course it's more work, every addition is more work. The customer's concern is making requests that they personally like. As Penthea pointed out the patterns are just texture swaps so I doubt making more of them would have any significant impact on the rate we get new hair styles.

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Originally Posted by Merry-Nightmare

I think they going to have all shared hairstyles for both races . sicne there some hairstyles in moge staion and they must be aware of that thing . I think we going to get more at lunch 100%

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They will probably be eating lunch at lunch, but if they can get it done before then that would be awesome!

Could be worse. Could be another "Worgen". Still not as beastly as Charr (posture)

Hairstyle tied to face is a huge turn off. Shame, since otherwise i like how they look. Hrothgar is still unfinished right? Hell of a work they have to do if they rig every single male hairstyle to each face.

Honestly it feels like Hrothgar was just thrown in last minute and most/all their work went into Viera. At this point I would rather have male Viera than Hrothgar, because at least they would have different hairstyles with faces and more customization options.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I really hope that this is the case even if the options for Hrothgar hints at something else. Otherwise if we dont get them, why not tell us? Nothing worse than keeping such a big limitation from us when they simply could have told us...so maybe their silence is because they are coming..but why not write a post about this because they should know that we will notice this..

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It really is such a strange situation.

On 1 hand, we are right around the corner from release ... they should be done with any hair styles by now if Viera and Hrothgar will have them.

But on the other hand ... they DID have to release the Benchmark later than they would have liked.
Seemed that way at least with what they said.
With how simple Hrothgar hair is (They don't get highlights, their style of beastly hair is mostly just large pieces of hair texture with not much in the way of "fine details") I see no reason they couldn't or wouldn't make up Hrothgar versions of the hairs we already have. And it's prob not a problem giving Viera the reg hair seeing how some of their RACE LOCKED hair completely disregards their ears and clips right through. As it stands neither has shown a single image of their race with non-racial hair though.

Looking back, they were very open and clear about NO head gear for Hrothgar and Viera on release ... never once said anything about hairstyles though. Then we get them revealing that the devs worked on their own time to give us fans 400+ head gears for our new races even though time was scheduled and planned for that inclusion post release. They wanted to do right by fans from the start. It doesn't take a half of a thought to know that people REALLY won't be happy if they find out they can't use their Reward/ Mog/ Unlocked or 2mill gil hair styles on their bunny girl on release. Even more so with Hrothgar if the hair style guy doesn't allow you to change heads.
And given how customer friendly SE is with money it makes absolutely no sense for them to force Hrothgar players to buy a potion for $10 to just change their hair style. Like, in what world would that make sense?

Hell, the Cloud hair style is in the game as a reward to players for winning an art contest ... would they tell these people "You picked WHAT race? Too bad :P"?

So perhaps they're saving the common hair for release and want to just show the racial hair right now?

Cause really, IDK what to think. The more I think about this the less sense it makes for things to stay the way they are. I really feel like Viera will get all the normal styles and Hrothgar will have Fur Patterns be the tab you select Hrothgar versions of the shared hairs. Prob restricted to x number to a face with the important ones (Mog and rewards/ unlocks) going to all the heads.

We'll see but yeah ... I accept it for what it is NOW yet feel like there's gotta be more to come.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Honestly it feels like Hrothgar was just thrown in last minute and most/all their work went into Viera. At this point I would rather have male Viera than Hrothgar, because at least they would have different hairstyles with faces and more customization options.

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I really don't get this thought process. To me it's the opposite ... just looking at what they DID with Hrothgar and how well it turned out post reveal shows me they got the most TLC.
Looking at how big, high quality and expressive their animations are ... how their mad emote tells a story and their DANCE basically tells one to. How you can feel the joy in their laughter and cheer. How cool their VOICES turned out. Looking at the care placed on their textures and fitting everything to a hunched over body shape that's new to the game. Adding such interesting face features and somehow getting convincing expressions out of animal heads.

Compared to the reserved, short and small animations of the Viera emotes. The lack of Ear animation, making their ears seem like head knives. To their hairstyles, some which clip right their their ear even though they were MADE for Viera and some of the longer ones that clip right through their shoulder when they move their head (which is strange, the 3 version hair with the Fran helm does a great job and not clipping but the other long hair goes right through even though it's not much different). To the voices not being consistent through their emotes (Even making sure to make many of the angry ones sound like moans ..)

Shows me they put a ton more effort into bringing the Hrothgar to life. Don't get me wrong, the Viera are still a job well done but to me it's clear they knocked Hrothgar outta the park with the amount of time and effort that went into them. Plus they have an insane amount of customization. Where as the Viera have face features that give them ... bigger eye lashes/ thicker brows/ a tiny mole or a head jem the Hrothgar get friggin whiskers/ scars/ face hair/ head hair/ horns/ chin spikes and such from that tab. Not even counting the fur patterns and tails and fangs.

The hair is a problem but it's a problem for both as is and I feel there's more to come for both.

I truly believe that all of the shared hairstyles will be available once the expansion comes out.

I'm trying to remember back to the Heavensward Benchmark, because I'm pretty certain that when Au Ra were shown in the Benchmark, they only had access to the race specific hairstyles as well. Does anyone remember? Or, still have Heavensward Benchmark?

EDIT: Never mind, found a YouTube video that shows they did have about 5 other shared styles that were not Au Ra specific.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

It really is such a strange situation.

On 1 hand, we are right around the corner from release ... they should be done with any hair styles by now if Viera and Hrothgar will have them.

But on the other hand ... they DID have to release the Benchmark later than they would have liked.
Seemed that way at least with what they said.
With how simple Hrothgar hair is (They don't get highlights, their style of beastly hair is mostly just large pieces of hair texture with not much in the way of "fine details") I see no reason they couldn't or wouldn't make up Hrothgar versions of the hairs we already have. And it's prob not a problem giving Viera the reg hair seeing how some of their RACE LOCKED hair completely disregards their ears and clips right through. As it stands neither has shown a single image of their race with non-racial hair though.

Looking back, they were very open and clear about NO head gear for Hrothgar and Viera on release ... never once said anything about hairstyles though. Then we get them revealing that the devs worked on their own time to give us fans 400+ head gears for our new races even though time was scheduled and planned for that inclusion post release. They wanted to do right by fans from the start. It doesn't take a half of a thought to know that people REALLY won't be happy if they find out they can't use their Reward/ Mog/ Unlocked or 2mill gil hair styles on their bunny girl on release. Even more so with Hrothgar if the hair style guy doesn't allow you to change heads.
And given how customer friendly SE is with money it makes absolutely no sense for them to force Hrothgar players to buy a potion for $10 to just change their hair style. Like, in what world would that make sense?

Hell, the Cloud hair style is in the game as a reward to players for winning an art contest ... would they tell these people "You picked WHAT race? Too bad :P"?

So perhaps they're saving the common hair for release and want to just show the racial hair right now?

Cause really, IDK what to think. The more I think about this the less sense it makes for things to stay the way they are. I really feel like Viera will get all the normal styles and Hrothgar will have Fur Patterns be the tab you select Hrothgar versions of the shared hairs. Prob restricted to x number to a face with the important ones (Mog and rewards/ unlocks) going to all the heads.

We'll see but yeah ... I accept it for what it is NOW yet feel like there's gotta be more to come.



I really don't get this thought process. To me it's the opposite ... just looking at what they DID with Hrothgar and how well it turned out post reveal shows me they got the most TLC.
Looking at how big, high quality and expressive their animations are ... how their mad emote tells a story and their DANCE basically tells one to. How you can feel the joy in their laughter and cheer. How cool their VOICES turned out. Looking at the care placed on their textures and fitting everything to a hunched over body shape that's new to the game. Adding such interesting face features and somehow getting convincing expressions out of animal heads.

Compared to the reserved, short and small animations of the Viera emotes. The lack of Ear animation, making their ears seem like head knives. To their hairstyles, some which clip right their their ear even though they were MADE for Viera and some of the longer ones that clip right through their shoulder when they move their head (which is strange, the 3 version hair with the Fran helm does a great job and not clipping but the other long hair goes right through even though it's not much different). To the voices not being consistent through their emotes (Even making sure to make many of the angry ones sound like moans ..)

Shows me they put a ton more effort into bringing the Hrothgar to life. Don't get me wrong, the Viera are still a job well done but to me it's clear they knocked Hrothgar outta the park with the amount of time and effort that went into them. Plus they have an insane amount of customization. Where as the Viera have face features that give them ... bigger eye lashes/ thicker brows/ a tiny mole or a head jem the Hrothgar get friggin whiskers/ scars/ face hair/ head hair/ horns/ chin spikes and such from that tab. Not even counting the fur patterns and tails and fangs.

The hair is a problem but it's a problem for both as is and I feel there's more to come for both.

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On the one hand they were up front with headgear on the other hand they decided to not tell their customers Viera would be playable female only for nearly 2 months. SE/the devs have both been upfront and coy about things they should have said so this situation could go either way the benchmark however was unfinished you could tell by there still being Japanese on the English version of it but the feature to select hairstyles is missing from Hrothgar so it may be that their situation is more like au ra and their horns we don't know yet.

I hope this is not all there is for Hrothgar, i am less worried for Viera since they do have the hairstyle option but this definitely puts a damper on things.

I didn't see any new information on this subject from the latest bit of details we got. Bumping this thread in case any new information has come to life that I have missed. I'm not going to be to thrilled if my bun can't have dreads.

Well, when people see the devs at E3 someone better ask them about Viera/Hrothgar being a limited race hairstyle wise.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Well, when people see the devs at E3 someone better ask them about Viera/Hrothgar being a limited race hairstyle wise.

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If nobody asks about it I’m gonna be mad at the whole playerbase.