Yoshi-P considering feedback on the new races

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

I mean obviously they wouldn't be, but it's plain that this was meant to give people a new option for a beastial race that we've never really had before, while at the same time kind of appeasing people that persistently asked for viera.

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Maybe so, but it's ironic that the people wanting male Viera were a large part of the voice making the demand known, thereby helping us get them only to... not... actually get them.

SE: "well yes, but actually no"

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Originally Posted by manickitty

Your disingenuity is showing.

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So is your lack of reading skills.

My comment was in context of this sentiment:

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Trying to bring up the 'lore' to defend it feels like a chap excuse all things considered and that annoys me.

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IF saying lore is a cheap excuse, then so to is claiming it was due to development resources (because they obviously had the resources to create 2 genders).

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Maybe so, but it's ironic that the people wanting male Viera were a large part of the voice making the demand known, thereby helping us get them only to... not... actually get them.

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Nobody even knows what a "male" Viera is. They could've called Hrothgar male Viera instead and no one would really be able to dispute. This whole thing is beyond silly.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

So is your lack of reading skills.

My comment was in context of this sentiment:



IF saying lore is a cheap excuse, then so to is claiming it was due to development resources (because they obviously had the resources to create 2 genders).

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Development resources and lore are excusing different things. You're right that they obviously have the resources to create two genders, but they opted to do a split race instead. Based on the reaction, this appears to have been an incorrect calculation, to put it mildly (and fwiw, I definitely would rather have just had Viera or Hrothgar of both genders over this split thing). Development resources are a real thing though and they made their decision in the framework of what they thought they could do. There's a reasonable debate to be had over how they chose to spend their resources, but no reason to not take the costs of creation at face value.

Lore is made up tomfoolery that can be changed at literally any time for any reason. Literally it's as simple as going, "Some male Viera grow fed up with their isolationist lifestyle and seek comradery in the major cities." This is why it's a lousy excuse. Ishgard was isolationist until it wasn't. Limsa was a lawless den of pirates until it wasn't (sorta). The elemental's power is absolute, until it wasn't. Black and White Magic were forbidden, until they weren't. Ascians were unkillable, until they got deaded. The lore saying Viera men never leave the forest isn't sacrosanct, it's bad lore they shouldn't have written to begin with because it is insane.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Development resources and lore are excusing different things. You're right that they obviously have the resources to create two genders, but they opted to do a split race instead. Based on the reaction, this appears to have been an incorrect calculation, to put it mildly (and fwiw, I definitely would rather have just had Viera or Hrothgar of both genders over this split thing). Development resources are a real thing though and they made their decision in the framework of what they thought they could do. There's a reasonable debate to be had over how they chose to spend their resources, but no reason to not take the costs of creation at face value.

Lore is made up tomfoolery that can be changed at literally any time for any reason. Literally it's as simple as going, "Some male Viera grow fed up with their isolationist lifestyle and seek comradery in the major cities." This is why it's a lousy excuse. Ishgard was isolationist until it wasn't. Limsa was a lawless den of pirates until it wasn't (sorta). The elemental's power is absolute, until it wasn't. Black and White Magic were forbidden, until they weren't. Ascians were unkillable, until they got deaded. The lore saying Viera men never leave the forest isn't sacrosanct, it's bad lore they shouldn't have written to begin with because it is insane.

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Just because they released 2 races doesn't mean 2 races were originally on the table. People are seeing 2 races and basically assuming they got shafted. It makes a bit more sense if you consider they may have had hesitation for releasing a male Viera, because of Lore and other reasons, and from this perspective they decided it might be better to introduce a second race for males. Developmental resources in no way would've played a part - since even allocating for a new race design would assume at least enough resources for both genders.

Whether or not you, or anyone else, believes Lore is a valid justification (although, it always seems to be when it's convenient) SE has certainly made, or not made, creative decisions based entirely upon it. I'm not saying lore is the end all be all, but it's their creative universe so it's up to them to decide how important it is. And regardless, it most certainly played more of a factor than "development resources".

Telling SE the lore of Final Fantasy is irrelevant lol. Talk about entitlement.

He already knew what the feedback on the races was going to be. There's no way they didn't see the situation going this way.

Just finish what you started SE..... We dont need more 1/2 done races

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

He already knew what the feedback on the races was going to be. There's no way they didn't see the situation going this way.

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If they released male Viera it would've drawn the same criticism, only of a different flavor (aesthetics).

I stand by my statement, if they just called Hrothgar male-Viera instead the community would've been none the wiser. But making a controversy out of nothing is what the internet does best.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

snip

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It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

We didnt need a new race to begin with, but people wanted Viera. We got the Viera. People wanted a beast race, we got one.
Now that we got what we asked for, people are complaining about not getting a gender.

Watch, we'll get both genders and now people will complain about lore. Then it will devolved into another Gender Politic discussion.
A western issue in a Japanese game

People will never be happy.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

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A+
10/10
Here have an ice cream Bar

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

We didnt need a new race to begin with, but people wanted Viera. We got the Viera. People wanted a beast race, we got one.
Now that we got what we asked for, people are complaining about not getting a gender.

Watch, we'll get both genders and now people will complain about lore. Then it will devolved into another Gender Politic discussion.
A western issue in a Japanese game

People will never be happy.

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There's already a thread suggesting making Hrothgar and Viera "non-binary".

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

A+
10/10
Here have an ice cream Bar

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<3

Female and Male Cat People make more sense then Male Bunny people. Because...
say it with me...
Lore.

Hate it and disagree with it all you want.
But even the dev team recognizes this fact.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Female and Male Cat People make more sense then Male Bunny people. Because...
say it with me...
Lore.

Hate it and disagree with it all you want.
But even the dev team recognizes this fact.

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There used to be a time where Male Cat People didn't make sense because of lore.
Look at us now.
It's almost like the devs are free to remake and ignore the lore of their own making at will!

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

A+
10/10
Here have an ice cream Bar

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I totally agree and I'll certainly thumbs up her/his post as well.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

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Except that: A) The Final Fantasy worlds are not connected. Changing a race in one does not do anything for the other: See: Moogles, who have not appeared the same in one FF to the next.
B) Koji's explicitly said that any lore is from the PoV of whoever says it, and NPCs can be wrong. Even the Encyclopedia Eorzea is written "in-character" in case it needs to be retconned later. See: The Acheron/Phlegethon debacle.
C) Sakaguchi has no say in the company since he "resigned," Viera were a creation of Matsuno (with Akihiko Yoshida) and he's denied any involvement with this decision. And he wrote the RtI scenario.
D) Yoshida said "lore" and later it came out that lore wasn't even in the decision-making process. And the Viera as they exist in XIV could have any other lore. In fact, the one they have could still support males.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

We didnt need a new race to begin with, but people wanted Viera. We got the Viera. People wanted a beast race, we got one.
Now that we got what we asked for, people are complaining about not getting a gender.

Watch, we'll get both genders and now people will complain about lore. Then it will devolved into another Gender Politic discussion.
A western issue in a Japanese game

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When people asked for Viera, it was because we wanted to see how the team would make the males. The original Viera request thread constantly asked for them. We didn't really get both, we got half of both races. The people who'll complain about the lore are those using it as an excuse to not add them already.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

We didnt need a new race to begin with, but people wanted Viera. We got the Viera. People wanted a beast race, we got one.
Now that we got what we asked for, people are complaining about not getting a gender.

Watch, we'll get both genders and now people will complain about lore. Then it will devolved into another Gender Politic discussion.
A western issue in a Japanese game

People will never be happy.

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"You only asked for Viera, but didn't say which gender LOLOLOL"

People weren't happy with the genderlocked races in 1.0. People were happy when they got rid of the genderlock.

People are not happy with genderlocking in 5.0. People are again asking to get rid of the genderlock.

It's really not that complicated. Sounds more to me like some don't actually WANT people to be happy. Nevermind the fact that people did, in fact, specify that they wanted to make Viera females and males. It accompanied pretty much every discussion about Viera.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

There used to be a time where Male Cat People didn't make sense because of lore.
Look at us now.
It's almost like the devs are free to remake and ignore the lore of their own making at will!

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The Mithra/Miqot'e & the Galka/Roe are not Viera,
The dev team shouldnt destroy and change an already established lore that already existed before XI & XIV just to make a minority happy.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

snip.

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Let's not pretend like it's only one side thats shot itself in the foot so to speak. It's been really vitriolic on both sides. Insulting the devs for being sexist and homophobic isn't accomplishing anything.


This goes for the other side insulting people who are being rational and calmly giving constructive feedback.

People seriously need to take a step back, calm down and stop letting their feelings take over if they actually want the devs to listen to their feedback.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

The Mithra/Miqot'e & the Galka/Roe are not Viera,
The dev team shouldnt destroy and change an already established lore that already existed before XI & XIV just to make a minority happy.

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Technically...they already changed an established lore. In FFXIV Male Viera are said to live in solitary, guarding the woods, they live alone and die alone.... In FFXII/Ivalice They just had their own settlements seperately from the women.

The problem with gender locks is that it doesn't mesh well with our societies current core values.

Women and men being forced, or restricted in any way immediately sparks outrage these days, because of the struggles that our human race has faced.

I say they should unlock the races over 5x patches, and lighten restrictions on eyewear/hats the best they can. It would remove the tensions toward the upcoming expansion. Agree with it or not, our societies are changing the way we look at men and women. They need to be equal to reflect current values.

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When people asked for Viera, it was because we wanted to see how the team would make the males. The original Viera request thread constantly asked for them. We didn't really get both, we got half of both races. The people who'll complain about the lore are those using it as an excuse to not add them already.

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Citation Needed. Not calling you wrong, Id just love to see a Quote.
And people who disregard the lore, don't respect the Franchise

[QUOTE=J Nevermind the fact that people did, in fact, specify that they wanted to make Viera females and males. It accompanied pretty much every discussion about Viera.[/QUOTE]
And never mind the fact that there is a lore reason why we never see males.
But hey, I can repeat this fact all day long, and even point out that in the article they mentioned the lore, and everybody will still ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Az-man

Technically...they already changed an established lore. In FFXIV Male Viera are said to live in solitary, guarding the woods, they live alone and die alone.... In FFXII/Ivalice They just had their own settlements seperately from the women.

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Thats pretty much the same thing, they are out of view never if ever seen. The wording still dictates they are not seen by the outside world.

I do not believe that there should be gender locking in the game, I would like to see a Male Viera and a Female Hrothgar added to the game, either at launch or as soon as they can after launch.

I think people are being very selfish and thinking their own society and culture is the only one that exists. Not everywhere in the world has the same social views as America and Europe and that's okay. Just like people don't want people to be opposing their views and reasons, why is it okay for those very same people to be so rude to others with differing opinions? In a culture where that particular way of thinking is the norm?

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Female and Male Cat People make more sense then Male Bunny people. Because...
say it with me...
Lore.

Hate it and disagree with it all you want.
But even the dev team recognizes this fact.

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Lore can limit the fact, but the dev team makes the lore, so they can make lore as to why they can exist too.... I take it like this. Lore done right is the Miquotes. If you go to Forgotten Springs there are 32 females and 3 males in that settlement, which is accurate to how the race works (I counted this weekend) BUT that scarcity of males doesn't prohibit people from playing them. Duswight elezen are so rare there's only one named NPC of that race in the entire game, and he's a part of the level 1-30 lancer quests (feel free to correct me if anyone knows of any others) Additionally, they rarely leave Gelmorra because of fear of the greenwrath as well as their disputes with the wildwood elezen, but they're still playable.

For an example of how they can rewrite the lore here, perhaps Viera function as we learned in the Return to Ivalice lore, but let's say that part of their territory on The First was swallowed by the flood of light, so the Viis have had to adapt and integrate into the remaining safe places in the world, so male Viis live in the cities alongside their female counterparts. This gives a perfectly legitimate lore reason that you would see them on one shard while not seeing them on another. Or they could just use lore to educate how often people would see NPCs of that race and sex, but not if you as a player can play them.

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Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

I think people are being very selfish and thinking their own society and culture is the only one that exists. Not everywhere in the world has the same social views as America and Europe and that's okay. Just like people don't want people to be opposing their views and reasons, why is it okay for those very same people to be so rude to others with differing opinions? In a culture where that particular way of thinking is the norm?

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I mean, I agree calling the devs homophobic/sexist is a bit much but, genderlocks are just bad on a consumer standpoint. Many MMO's that have genderlocks are f2p not p2p and really this is more of an issue with WHY isn't square enix giving one of it's top selling products the proper financial and developmental support to add in two unique genders with two unique races? there should be less push on the dev team and more push on the higher ups to stop this trend of making it's developers need to be in this constant crunch rush.

It's borderline abusive.

[QUOTE=DamianFatale;4927222]snip./QUOTE]

A fantasy mmorpg does not need to mesh or cater to IRL societal values. It's a fictional fantasy world with magic and monsters, not a replication of real life.

The issue is, the people that feel the need to insert these values and demand that the developers listen to whatever problem they have with the game that doesn't line up with their personal real life values. There isn't any place for this kind of stuff in a fantasy game.

Glad they're listening to feedback, though it's a shame we're going through this again.

It's kind of disappointing to think they didn't anticipate this... I thought they were more in touch with their community?

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Originally Posted by Sated

Glad they're listening to feedback, though it's a shame we're going through this again.

It's kind of disappointing to think they didn't anticipate this... I thought they were more in touch with their community?

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I mean if you honestly think for one second they didn't "anticipate" this... They knew what was going to happen and they did it anyways.
That alone says something. No company pulls a move like this and is suddenly surprised people weren't happy with the end result.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Except that: A) The Final Fantasy worlds are not connected. Changing a race in one does not do anything for the other: See: Moogles, who have not appeared the same in one FF to the next.

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Actually, a number of Final Fantasy worlds ARE directly connected. FF7 is connected to FFX in fact. FF Tactics is connected to FF XII as well. Ivalice itself is connected to FFXIV, seeing as we just had 3 raids steeped in Ivalician lore. We even get to fight alongside Ramza and the gang for the final battle. As one who 100%'d FF Tactics back on the PS1, let me tell you - that was one hell of a fangasm. Couple of years back we had an event that connected FFXIII to FFXIV by way of Lightning herself appearing here, and we'll soon be finding ourselves connected to FFXV. Oh, and Garlean technology? FF6. Sorry but either the worlds themselves are the same (FFT+FFXII) or there is something connecting them in a multiverse-like web where races look similar, but may or may not have differing names and societies.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

B) Koji's explicitly said that any lore is from the PoV of whoever says it, and NPCs can be wrong. Even the Encyclopedia Eorzea is written "in-character" in case it needs to be retconned later. See: The Acheron/Phlegethon debacle.

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....Okay? That gives them an out to change things if needbe. Understandable, and makes sense in an MMO where lore may or may not need to be changed to accommodate current or future events. If you're trying to connect that with them changing the lore for male Viera, then see my last answer to your post.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

C) Sakaguchi has no say in the company since he "resigned," Viera were a creation of Matsuno (with Akihiko Yoshida) and he's denied any involvement with this decision. And he wrote the RtI scenario.

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Hence why I stated "This is pure speculation".

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

D) Yoshida said "lore" and later it came out that lore wasn't even in the decision-making process. And the Viera as they exist in XIV could have any other lore. In fact, the one they have could still support males.

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I never said lore was part of the decision-making process. I was speaking directly to the person I quoted - explaining the differences between FFXIV's lore and Viera's. If you had read any further, you would've seen that I'm for both races having both genders, which means I'm for their FFXIV lore being changed to accommodate.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

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Pretty much "Im a writer, therefore I know things" snobbery. Get off the high horse. People have opinions, particularly if they think that the reasoning is lacking. Its not a spit in anyone's face.

Ok, lets get to this then:

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

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This is irrelevant. FFXIV is not Tactics, 11, or any other ff game. The ff games are only vaguely related, and even then its not really by intention (more of a "What if" idea by fans that the devs kinda adopted.) The only point to argue is what the Lore is in FFXIV. And in this case, it is very very minimal. So much so that it is extremely easy to write male viera into the game. There is no crucial story point that says they cant be in the game. No crux of a major plot development.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

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This is an overselling of a point. As I said above, the lore on male viera is minimal, and is not connected to any major plot or world building exercise. A 'call to arms' sub plot would be more than sufficient given what limited lore is available in FFXIV. Any other lore from any other game is irrelevant, unless youre arguing that to know Viera as a race, you needed to play every other game that has them. This is like saying to read this one book, you needed to read 4 other books that are only loosely connected cause it was written by the same author and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

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Again, the issue is youre overselling this. Its not as hard as youre portraying it. We can all agree that genderlocking is probably not what people want, but lets not defend the devs reasoning with really poorly done lore in the context of ffxiv. We wanna be frank, then lets have the devs say "Just didnt have the time and we thought people would prefer this more." Not a mouthful of "Muh Lore" shenanigans.

*edit: God my post was a mess...

I have never logged into my account to leave feedback before until now. So here it is.

A.) I respectfully disagree with locking a race behind genders. This ia my second account original was lost. But I use to be a 1.0 player. If the species is going to be offered as a playable race. Then allow the choice to able to pick. Lore is not viable excuse. That reasoning was used for 1.0 for Cats and Roe's and it was a detriment to the over all experience of the game and caused unnecessary contention within the game for players. The point of 2.0 was to learn from the hubris of those mistakes made. This should never have been an option on the table.

B.) It gives absolutely no benefits to only allow a singular gender. If there is Ultimately no major benefits to having singular gender too a race, then it is Ultimately just hurting the over all experience of the game. Perhaps not yours as a player or developer. But there are many people who do care about these types of things do not limit the options too players because you think it's a cool idea. Removing the option to select both, is just detrimental too people and that is completely valid. Some people have been waiting sense 2.0 to play a Ronso or Viera they shouldn't be punished by other players for voicing that. Nor ahould they over do it and become toxic about getting their point across.

C.) Trust and integrity. One of the biggest reasons I came back to FFXIV was because Yoshida and the team promised not to return back too how things where in 1.0. Like not locking races. To move forward for the players. I bought this game and has supported the developers and the community based on these heart felt words. I believe taking responsibility for making this decision knowing that the community ( especially the some of the veterans who where around for 1.0) would be extremely angry and disheartened by this decision. I personally will be changing to a male Ronso. However I do have friends who where understandably upset about this announcement. Much like me they never wanted to repeat this course of action again.

And my final point is that, I personally will accept whatever the developer team decides. However I do ask that the team and players who remember what it was like to not have choices given to you to be what you wanted and what that would mean for those player and for new players who don't understand why there is so much anger over this. To keep in mind. Every single player who plays a male Kitty or A femlae Roe, heck even if you know players who have those races as friends. You wouldn't have those races too choose if they had kept a gender locked system. Please don't encourage that now. It wasn't fun back then, and for some players it would ruin the fun again.

Just the opinion of one person. Remember to try and be kind to those who reply to this thread.

- Spread understanding not hate.

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Originally Posted by Corue

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sq.../1100-6465810/



The missing genders might not be off the table just yet.

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That's reassuring as long we stay positively formal providing feedback and also they focus on the good ones. It could happen, but right now due to resources while pleasing the fans at the same time seems is time consuming on their end. That's what I gathered so far from this case. If they can read my message on this case I say if you can't provide it now then provide it later because this is a good move overall. Someone said the male viera would look weird, but seeing how cool armor sets are in this game. That weirdness can be overlooked or as the old saying the eye of the beholder. Nevertheless here's my support to see this concept come to fruition because I see nothing, but positive praises at the end of road. d-(^.^)z

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Lore can limit the fact, but the dev team makes the lore, so they can make lore as to why they can exist too.... I take it like this. Lore done right is the Miquotes. If you go to Forgotten Springs there are 32 females and 3 males in that settlement, which is accurate to how the race works (I counted this weekend) BUT that scarcity of males doesn't prohibit people from playing them. Duswight elezen are so rare there's only one named NPC of that race in the entire game, and he's a part of the level 1-30 lancer quests (feel free to correct me if anyone knows of any others) Additionally, they rarely leave Gelmorra because of fear of the greenwrath as well as their disputes with the wildwood elezen, but they're still playable.

For an example of how they can rewrite the lore here, perhaps Viera function as we learned in the Return to Ivalice lore, but let's say that part of their territory on The First was swallowed by the flood of light, so the Viis have had to adapt and integrate into the remaining safe places in the world, so male Viis live in the cities alongside their female counterparts. This gives a perfectly legitimate lore reason that you would see them on one shard while not seeing them on another. Or they could just use lore to educate how often people would see NPCs of that race and sex, but not if you as a player can play them.

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You know, you are the first person who I read attempts a Decent reason it can happen, and not just argue "I want it, XIV needs to be progressive"
Im still on the opposite side that says we shouldn't get Male Viera, but if there is a good lore reason, I can accept it. Its still lore breaking, but if there is a supportable reason...like...EVOLVING/ADDING to the lore, then this is great! But sharply changing it is where I have an issue.
I like you, you have my respect.
~cheers

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

Actually, a number of Final Fantasy worlds ARE directly connected. FF7 is connected to FFX in fact. FF Tactics is connected to FF XII as well. Ivalice itself is connected to FFXIV, seeing as we just had 3 raids steeped in Ivalician lore. We even get to fight alongside Ramza and the gang for the final battle. As one who 100%'d FF Tactics back on the PS1, let me tell you - that was one hell of a fangasm. Couple of years back we had an event that connected FFXIII to FFXIV by way of Lightning herself appearing here, and we'll soon be finding ourselves connected to FFXV. Oh, and Garlean technology? FF6. Sorry but either the worlds themselves are the same (FFT+FFXII) or there is something connecting them in a multiverse-like web where races look similar, but may or may not have differing names and societies.

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FF7 was connected to X without the input of the 7 team, it was a retconned thing in the Ultimania. XIV is not connected to Ivalice, this was disproven by Matsuno himself on his Twitter (why not rant about how Ashe and Rassler are twins in XIV?), The Ivalice Alliance games are the only ones connected between themselves. XIII was only alluded due to nods, but isn't actually connected (Another dimension, was the excuse), Are you seriously trying to say that because the Garleans use tech that's cosmetically similar to 6 that they're connected?

Now: Ivalice Alliance are games set in the world/region of Ivalice. These include: FFT, FFTA, FFTA2, FFXII, FFXII: RW, Vagrant Story. XIV is not part of the Ivalice Alliance.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

....Okay? That gives them an out to change things if need be. Understandable, and makes sense in an MMO where lore may or may not need to be changed to accommodate current or future events. If you're trying to connect that with them changing the lore for male Viera, then see my last answer to your post.

I never said lore was part of the decision-making process. I was speaking directly to the person I quoted - explaining the differences between FFXIV's lore and Viera's. If you had read any further, you would've seen that I'm for both races having both genders, which means I'm for their FFXIV lore being changed to accommodate.

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The point is that by going "I'm a writer so X" and then going off on tangents about how they can't change this aspect of the Lore (while ignoring that it actually WAS changed and these are not the same Viera from Ivalice) is beyond pedantic, and this is from another writer.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Citation Needed. Not calling you wrong, Id just love to see a Quote.
And people who disregard the lore, don't respect the Franchise

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This Thread

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Originally Posted by RosaLunaCelestia

Im for viera race ( will be viera if added ) AND more customization in same time ;)
Seeing how boys want rabbit clothes , they want be a viera male too i guess ;)

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Originally Posted by Alacran

I truly want Viera in FFXIV, however i would only want the mature, ferocious, and graceful warrior race. The idea of the their male counter part being physically smaller (as a reverse variant of AuRa would be acceptable). As "cute" as a child like race would be, the issues with having a child like form makes to many issues to be worth it.

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In the first 2 pages, not gonna go delving for more just to make a point but mine asking for bunny men is around there. I also take offense to that whole "Don't respect the Franchise" deal because then you're saying the devs themselves don't respect it.

I'm all for releasing gender locks on characters. Hrothgar themselves shouldn't be gender-locked at all. Ronso in FFX have both genders shown.

Even more so, please fix how the male Hrothgar look before working on new genders and potentially going with a similar style that won't be well-received. Hrothgar males so far don't look all that much like Ronso from FFX, when they should be, when they're even named the same race when we go back to the First. Imho, they need to be less bulky, and show more fur-patten texture, cause right now, it looks like they have patches of fur on their body with skin showing on most of the rest. At the minimum, they shouldn't look like they're Khajiit out of Oblivion.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Theres 14 Million subs in FF XIV right now... and maybe 500 or so people on the forums asking for a genderlock removal Could be miscounting but most of the posts seem to be well mostly the same people. I am not understanding where you're getting the idea thats a strong call to take development and pool towards.

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There's literally a thread on the main page with 1,077 Replies, 74,746 Views and over 1.1k "likes." And that's only for the male Viera. Several reddit threads have hit 4 digit upvotes on the topic as well. "Maybe 500 people" is REALLY lowballing it.

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Originally Posted by Chained_Icarus

There's literally a thread on the main page with 1,077 Replies, 74,746 Views and over 1.1k "likes." And that's only for the male Viera. Several reddit threads have hit 4 digit upvotes on the topic as well. "Maybe 500 people" is REALLY lowballing it.

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Compared to 14mill...yeah, thats still a small number mathematically

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

You know, you are the first person who I read attempts a Decent reason it can happen, and not just argue "I want it, XIV needs to be progressive"
Im still on the opposite side that says we shouldn't get Male Viera, but if there is a good lore reason, I can accept it. Its still lore breaking, but if there is a supportable reason...like...EVOLVING/ADDING to the lore, then this is great! But sharply changing it is where I have an issue.
I like you, you have my respect.
~cheers

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Just curious, what's your opinion then on the Male Keeper of the Moon lore (it's practically identical to Male Viera lore), or there being multiple Warriors of Light/Classes there should only be canonically 1 of? How do you feel about things like the Yokai Watch event and Monster Hunter Crossover They are presented in game as happening in the events of the world/game.

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Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

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Lore is mutable, always and forever. Which is why lore objections are an idiot's hill to die on. This isn't to say lore isn't important, just that there's literally nothing that stops them from changing the lore the second they get the resources together to do dude buns. Which they will do if they get enough blowback. Which uhhh the genderlocked thread is 500 pages since February so I feel like they are.

mr yoshida tear down this genderwall