Heaven on High: That's it?

It's PotD 1.5

Which isn't exactly a bad thing. Sure I would have loved a lot of additional improvements or changes, but I don't want it to be drastically different from PotD.

honestly it's true that the base of the deep dungeon 2.0 is the same than the first one, i regret the lack of different objective per floor... even if i was pleased to see in the big room dummy exit, i wish they had added it in the normal floor too.
the area for 40-80 have a lot of different room, with different shape and such (even if it's always square room)
but what did suprise me, in the good sense is the monster, a lot of them passed 50 are simply extremely dangerous.... i'm not sure to see this be completed by a solo player before long, mostly because some of this monster have ability with really short CD, like the tiger from 71+ that have a giant cleave froze (if you are frozen he will come to insta kill you) and an attack that force you to look away that froze you too, and naturally you are killed if you are frozen...
or monster that put vulnerability up to at least 9 making no tank able to survive multiple aggro, but at the same time, most of the traps are luring traps...

that my two grips with this deep dungeon, first passed a level most of the traps turn into luring traps, and some pack of monster are simply instant death, like the naga from 61-65 that have a giant AoE that hit for more of 25000 damage... if you have naga already and get another from a luring traps it's often means death.... luring traps below 50 is a bother, passed this level is can be a run killer.... and every room can be with a luring traps. because a lot of the monster from this range become mini boss with AoE and mechanic that can simply kill you instantly.
my second grip was already here in the palace of the dead.... the lack of potion for clean pacification, we can clean silence, allowing caster to remain active, but if you are a melee you are simply screwed over.... they need to add a potion for dispell pacification debuff... is not fair not normal to have a large part of the group be screwed if they get the traps that silence and pacificate. worst, in solo run it's instant death.... because monster often need to be exterminate fast....

another thing, that most QoL, i did notice that some music come back really really really often like gubal one and honestly, is one of the music i like the less, it will be nice to allows us to customize the playlist of the music in deep dungeon, mostly by selecting the one we don't want to have.... because one more time, passed a certain range 3 floor can be long and have the music you like the less can be really tiring.

HoH is missing one thing, coming from currently being on floor 70+, I feel they should of made 2 tiers. The current 1-100 where it has the same difficulty as 180+ by 70+ and then a Hard Mode that is 180+ difficulty from 1-100, mobs and Bosses are the same but the Mechanics to Bosses are more unforgiving/some additional mechanics.

With the Hard Mode, the option could be a group can start from Hard Mode 1 and that's it, but this secondary difficulty is something I feel is missing since the current design given all the utility they added with pomanders does appear to make it way easier that POTD even though this was billed as being more difficulty, I currently don't see it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

another thing, that most QoL, i did notice that some music come back really really really often like gubal one and honestly, is one of the music i like the less, it will be nice to allows us to customize the playlist of the music in deep dungeon, mostly by selecting the one we don't want to have.... because one more time, passed a certain range 3 floor can be long and have the music you like the less can be really tiring.

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Agreed - for both deep dungeons. I love the jukebox idea and getting to hear music from various dungeons, but I'd like to be able to turn some of them off.

I will say one thing about the upper floors, as my group readies itself to tackle 80-100 in the morning- the only danger in the game so far is wiping to enemy hordes or running out of time if your Aetherpool isn't up to snuff. The bosses have been a joke so far. Were they this easy in PotD? I never tried the upper floors in that.

was hoping for less grind for the weapon as can't play too much anymore and i still have other things to do ig (catching up on eureka for example)
anyway it's potd 2.0 as expected. though i liked potd' s story more.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Nothing in his statement claims he was querying any specific part of the playerbase, but the playerbase as a whole—so anyone looking to say that it was “only the raiders” that enjoyed have no argument there.

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This simply isn't possible. There's no way no one but the 180-200 people liked the challenge. If you asked people who did potd, pretty much mostly anyone who did it was satisfied, and no one was complaining for nerfs. Well, except for soloists.

My bet is that yoshi looked at the data mid expansion. What he saw was that casuals mostly did 1-20 and then 51-60, while people who did 101+ went all the way to 200 barring death. He probably interpreted this as "casuals don't like the challenge of the higher floors" when it really was that the goals of the casuals weren't served by the harder floors; leveling, mostly. It just was very inefficient to do the whole series if your main goal was leveling up, while you had to do the whole series in challenge floors, even if you wanted just to farm stuff. Because I don't think people wanted any of it to be easier; they usually were "people are speedrunning it too much."

Either this, or its another JP/NA divide. But no, there's no way people were complaining about the challenge to the point it needed multiple instakill pomanders added.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This simply isn't possible. There's no way no one but the 180-200 people liked the challenge. If you asked people who did potd, pretty much mostly anyone who did it was satisfied, and no one was complaining for nerfs. Well, except for soloists.

My bet is that yoshi looked at the data mid expansion. What he saw was that casuals mostly did 1-20 and then 51-60, while people who did 101+ went all the way to 200 barring death. He probably interpreted this as "casuals don't like the challenge of the higher floors" when it really was that the goals of the casuals weren't served by the harder floors; leveling, mostly. It just was very inefficient to do the whole series if your main goal was leveling up, while you had to do the whole series in challenge floors, even if you wanted just to farm stuff. Because I don't think people wanted any of it to be easier; they usually were "people are speedrunning it too much."

Either this, or its another JP/NA divide. But no, there's no way people were complaining about the challenge to the point it needed multiple instakill pomanders added.

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All this is, is just you disagreeing with everything and flipping it to fit your own rhetoric. You have no evidence or proof to support any of this; it’s just more of your bias showing through. I’m done arguing with you on this because you simply fail to even consider that maybe, just maybe, things aren’t the way you constantly see them. Have a nice evening.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

snip.

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Did you even read the quote?

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With the original Deep Dungeon, Palace of the Dead, we released 200 floors over two patches. However our feedback indicates that outside of leveling other jobs, players only really enjoyed the challenge of floors 180 to 200. With Heaven on High the leveling and story portion will end at floor 30, but floors 31 to 100 should feel closer to 180 to 200. Expect that kind of challenge from 31 to 100 and we hope the players enjoy accessing this content a little sooner.

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Casual players liked easier floors for leveling but only found the more challenging floors interesting. Your interpretation is literally the opposite of what Yoshida said. At this point, you're arguing because it doesn't fit your rhetoric. Even Yoshida himself cannot convince you a good portion of players do what a middle ground between Savage and brain dead easy.

Every HoH party I've been in has had a red mage in it (save one), and save one of those parties, all of them have ended with me wanting to punch them.

It's really hard to feel bad for people who main it, and it's only taken one day to make me this angry towards a class.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Casual players liked easier floors for leveling but only found the more challenging floors interesting.

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I didn't get "casual players" out of the phrase "players only really enjoyed the challenge of floors 180 to 200". I would assume 'players' in that sentence would refer to "players looking for a challenge" who didn't enjoy having to go through the inbetween floors to get to the deeper ones.

Or is this another time-casual vs intensity-casual technicality?

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Every HoH party I've been in has had a red mage in it (save one), and save one of those parties, all of them have ended with me wanting to punch them.

It's really hard to feel bad for people who main it, and it's only taken one day to make me this angry towards a class.

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They not using Cure/Raise?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Casual players liked easier floors for leveling but only found the more challenging floors interesting

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I don't think casuals made statics to do content where one wipe or even one DC could make you start over after investing 3 hours into a run. I really find it hard to believe casuals who did POTD like 180+200 the best, and yoshi has a history of saying or believing things which are just odd, aka "launch Astrologian isnt underpowered, you are playing it wrong" or "You know what this game needs to focus on for pvp? Esport arena battles!" or "if we just give them -5 Ilvl weapons from savage in thordan ex, that will help them beat gordias." I said that because i was trying to think why on earth he would say such an odd thing, and mostly it was because he must have interpreted the data he got of people playing incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I didn't get "casual players" out of the phrase "players only really enjoyed the challenge of floors 180 to 200". I would assume 'players' in that sentence would refer to "players looking for a challenge" who didn't enjoy having to go through the inbetween floors to get to the deeper ones.

Or is this another time-casual vs intensity-casual technicality?

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“Casual player” =/= automatically a Savage raider. Non-raiders can also want and enjoy challenges. You don’t have to be a raider to want to challenge yourself. I firmly believe Yoshida is speaking about the playerbase as a whole, casuals and raiders included. He isn’t discussing one group or the other.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

“Casual player” =/= automatically a Savage raider. Non-raiders can also want and enjoy challenges. You don’t have to be a raider to want to challenge yourself. I firmly believe Yoshida is speaking about the playerbase as a whole, casuals and raiders included. He isn’t discussing one group or the other.

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The amount of time you'd do potd is probably close to the time a casual savage raider would spend raiding per week, actually. But we're getting a bit afield here, and its more I just don't get the design changes they made, especially the instakill stuff. I can't say how much it makes the lower floors pointless for casuals and im surprised they even gave it to the floors. They restricted odin, but not those. I can understand if casual hoh was a little harder than potd, but not when they seem to have made it the same or even a bit easier. I don't get why we only get three floors; yes, people spammed the easiest one, but you fix that by just making reasons to do them all, not gutting them.

The casual or not wanting the game to get harder doesn't really mean it needs to be pared down to the minimum; you can expand on it and give more complexity. But even the story suffered from this approach

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Originally Posted by Nestama

They not using Cure/Raise?

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It's honestly a lot of little things building up into one massive "I want to take your rapier and jam it down your throat" gripe.

Not healing people up on a "auto-heal disabled" floor is certainly one, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Every HoH party I've been in has had a red mage in it (save one), and save one of those parties, all of them have ended with me wanting to punch them.

It's really hard to feel bad for people who main it, and it's only taken one day to make me this angry towards a class.

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I've been using my Samurai main, but was going to try going in with my rdm for an extra raise/healing if we have problems with higher levels. What exactly has been the issue with the class? Just bad players?

I've honestly had more issues with smn and sch pets pulling mobs than anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I've been using my Samurai main, but was going to try going in with my rdm for an extra raise/healing if we have problems with higher levels. What exactly has been the issue with the class? Just bad players?

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They might clamp up when the fight's getting a mess and people have to be healed and raised - Of which they then forget that those have the ability to do so.
Quite the oddity compared to the eagerness they have displayed in eureka regarding that.

I did the 1-30 floors for the story but found it a little confusing, is it tied to any side quests I may have (almost certainly) skipped through the dialogue of? Or is that it? What is the lore behind it?

Honestly, thinking it over, my gripes against RDM aren't specifically worth a rant on, but it's the consistency.

Almost every Red mage will pull the boss all over the place, and use up the limit break, and it just gets very tiring to see them all with the same bad habits.

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Originally Posted by K1tt

I did the 1-30 floors for the story but found it a little confusing, is it tied to any side quests I may have (almost certainly) skipped through the dialogue of? Or is that it? What is the lore behind it?

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All I got from the "story" was "allagans did it!" and hologram tree to give us dialogue of NPCs we've never seen before or care about. And implication that's the whole story to it. Feels a bit underwhelming. :x

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Honestly, thinking it over, my gripes against RDM aren't specifically worth a rant on, but it's the consistency.

Almost every Red mage will pull the boss all over the place, and use up the limit break, and it just gets very tiring to see them all with the same bad habits.

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Almost every rdm has to be an exaggeration. I've met many rdms who don't waste lbs and know how to use their emnity cooldowns. When I RDM I make sure I have Diversion and Lucid Dreaming LBs are saved for melee (unless there isn't one). If almost every rdm you meet plays like what you mentioned, then you are have extremely bad luck because those are just bad players in general. I doubt they'd be any better playing another class.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Almost every rdm has to be an exaggeration. I've met many rdms who don't waste lbs and know how to use their emnity cooldowns. Those are just bad players in general. When I RDM I make sure I have Diversion and Lucid Dreaming LBs are saved for melee (unless there isn't one. If almost every rdm you meet plays like what you mentioned, then you are have extremely bad luck because those are just bad players in general. I doubt they'd be any better playing another class.

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Precisely one run of Palace of the Dead had a red mage that I didn't end thinking sourly of

So... yeah, you're correct. Bad luck. I'll probably be over it in a day or two, but until then...

Edit: Actually, this might be a good place to mention that I think it's a bit bugged. I keep getting disconnects from using the Samurai Gap Closer on an enemy about to die.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

My biggest issue is that 99% of the items you get from bags is crappy materia and firewoks. SE never learns.

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Everything you get from the sacks is always going to be junk. And thus largely worthless. I sold 2 of them gyr abanian hairstyles for 8 million each on tuesday. But they've already lost most of that value in just a couple of days. Probably be under a 100k by time weekend is done.

When the sacks are so common you can't really expect them to hold anything actually worthwhile

So today I joined a party to do 31+. Floors 31-59 were pretty easy and unfortunately I can't comment much on 61+ because my group underestimated a flying tomato and got wrecked (those vuln stacks make this plant hit hard, even on a PLD in Shield Oath... also forgot to use Witching) on the first room. Probably would have been fine if a patrol mob didn't sneak up on the healer.

The floor 40 and 50 bosses were also pretty easy, too. 40 hardly dealt any damage and 50 was pretty much an easier version of the Skalla final boss. Floor 60 boss is also pretty easy, but the amount of AoE's get pretty ridiculous, so once I was the only one alive, I Odin'd the Scylla clone.

All that said, it was pretty fun.

It's why i say that actually casual content will go over the the floor 30 since making PFs to get to the fixed floors doesn't requires you 1 hour and half of jogging trough pointless floors.

PPl asked for an ease of the fixed floors on PotD since inception, if my memory is correct. Also there's a somewhat long term reward if you plan to clear the place at least 4 times, I'd say that the reward this time is somewhat better

I got to floor 70 with random PF people... and floor 98 with my FC... that was a heartbreaking wipe. We weren't using voice chat and didn't have a red mage, was just an impromptu run that ended up going long but our lack of coordination caused wasted pomanders and pulling enemies before everyone is ready.

The punishment of 1 KO making your save file unusable and wasting several hours is extremely stressful and made me feel very unwell even though I've done PotD 200 multiple times before HoH was released. High stress makes me wonder if it's worth doing challenge content because it's not fun, but there's conflicting feelings of wanting the rewards while the content is still new and not hard to find a party for.

Somehow I never guessed allagans when I saw the tower but that makes sense I guess. It's so unusual and out of place because it's from a different era.

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

All I got from the "story" was "allagans did it!" and hologram tree to give us dialogue of NPCs we've never seen before or care about. And implication that's the whole story to it. Feels a bit underwhelming. :x

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I feel like they threw out that bit of plot mostly to entertain the possibility that we might be needed in Hingashi someday, since trouble seldom doesn't arise in regions where the Allagans had an influence.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like they threw out that bit of plot mostly to entertain the possibility that we might be needed in Hingashi someday, since trouble seldom doesn't arise in regions where the Allagans had an influence.

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And let's not fogret that allag conquered the world

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Originally Posted by Remedi

And let's not fogret that allag conquered the world

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Sure, but at this point I find myself sighing, "Al-agains...?"

More seriously, though, I had hoped the story would feature some thought as to how entire floors fit inside that relatively skinny tower, but all we got was even larger rooms. I had hoped for actual trouble other than "Oh, this was just a testing ground for warriors that treated like a holy ground (almost like Bardam's Mettle doesn't exist), and oh yeah here's this hologram you'll get basically nothing out of. Thanks for playing, now go enjoy the next seventy floors."

Then the Hoards started dropping music rolls from dungeons that are still relevant or used regularly, as opposed to places people likely aren't going to visit any time soon (*cough* Aquapolis *cough*).

So yeah... I wasn't expecting much beyond a slightly updated PotD (updated in terms of aesthetic, mind you), and I still feel a smidge let down.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

And let's not fogret that allag conquered the world

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Having a mysterious ancient civilization that conquered the world before dying out lets you do a lot from a story perspective. Want to include some cool instance but have no way to justify it in the current setting? Allagans did it!

I was kind of disappointed that HoH was related to the Allagans, honestly. The story is so sparse it's hardly worth getting worked up over but I was hoping for some more Othardian/regional lore instead of more ancient Allagan tech with a secret group using/guarding it for their own ends.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

Having a mysterious ancient civilization that conquered the world before dying out lets you do a lot from a story perspective. Want to include some cool instance but have no way to justify it in the current setting? Allagans did it!

I was kind of disappointed that HoH was related to the Allagans, honestly. The story is so sparse it's hardly worth getting worked up over but I was hoping for some more Othardian/regional lore instead of more ancient Allagan tech with a secret group using/guarding it for their own ends.

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To each their own I suppose, but since their conquest was enstablished in the story since ARR I'd say it's only logical to think that their shadow lingers deep in the world. Tbh It's interesting the fact that they are setting up a prophecy of a promised warrior and that is what HoH is for. Also makes me feeling less bad in helping the return of piracy in the ruby sea tbh

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I legit didn't see the floor 30 boss die last night. It just sort of exploded...

Also casuals wanting more casual floors? Why? All you are gonna run is 21-30 just like all you ran for PotD was 51-60.

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Not everyone would just run the same floors again and again, there are some of us who would love more casual floors for more variety because its already a bit boring to kill the same bosses again and again. Also imo the floors 31-50 still feel quite casual and not really a challenge at all. Heck even up to 70 is not that harsh. Only the floors from 71 on are a true challenge that can even hit you hard with full aether gear. So why not make it 50/50? Not only have casuals more floors but those who want a challenge dont have to go through 20 floors that are still not one..which makes it at least easier to try this with randoms because 70 floors is still quite the time sink and makes this quite hard with randoms. (While not being that hard until later floors..even though the 80 boss was really a joke and less dangerous than the 30...)

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Originally Posted by Tinibou

And what about the fact that you need to reach the 50th floor of the PoTD to have access to HoH ? That's so stupid...

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As a newish player, this is a hard slap on the face.
I have not run PoTD because it is not a necessary for me yet. I was looking forward to finally do something on-release with friends. But I do not meet the requirement, instead forced to clear old optional content despite already work myself up to the max level.

Looking from the perspective of lore/story progression, I could probably accept whatever reason (spoilers maybe?) behind the lockout. Doesn't make me any less sad tho.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

As a newish player, this is a hard slap on the face.
I have not run PoTD because it is not a necessary for me yet. I was looking forward to finally do something on-release with friends. But I do not meet the requirement, instead forced to clear old optional content despite already work myself up to the max level.

Looking from the perspective of lore/story progression, I could probably accept whatever reason (spoilers maybe?) behind the lockout. Doesn't make me any less sad tho.

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Clearing floor 50 of PotD likely won't take more than an hour depending on queue times. But it does boggle my mind why it's a requirement when the story is not connected to it at all.

They hint at PotD beign connected when the guy tells you about the enfebbling effect of HoH

The floor 30 "boss" is a reskinned Titan and the weapons are all reskins as well. It's getting exhausting seeing nothing but reskined or reused assets so often now.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

The floor 30 "boss" is a reskinned Titan and the weapons are all reskins as well. It's getting exhausting seeing nothing but reskined or reused assets so often now.

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Onishishu person: Its not Titan its....Sitan! See? So much cooler, see? He wears his loincloth on his head and everything! Not like Titan at all! :)

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

The floor 30 "boss" is a reskinned Titan and the weapons are all reskins as well. It's getting exhausting seeing nothing but reskined or reused assets so often now.

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There were 0 unique models in PotD, all reused assets maybe they were better hidden but still nothing new

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

The floor 30 "boss" is a reskinned Titan and the weapons are all reskins as well. It's getting exhausting seeing nothing but reskined or reused assets so often now.

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Making new assets means more resources, meaning less resources for other things. Deep dungeon likes to reuse assets because it makes sense lore wise, and saves on the contents resources