Gender Bias in Character Creation

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Originally Posted by kikix12

There is no such thing as male bunny outfit in real life. For a reason, too. It's simply unappealing to majority of men AND women since the original bunny costume that was made and so widely spread have simply made any attempt either ridiculous and unappealing...or a completely different thing.

If you're making a ball, it needs to be spherical. If it's not spherical, then it's not a ball. "Bunny outfit" is a specific piece that needs to be made in a specific way. And that is very feminine. If you want a bunny-inspired outfit...now, that's a different thing. But it's not a bunny outfit anymore (ironically).

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*scratches head* ...right.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5460...9e0d/tenor.gif

your post screams strawman.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I think the equivalent of a bulge slider would be a camel toe slider, but the latter would send the game rating through the roof.

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Lmao camel toe slider. If this happens may as well have gear that looks like a d’$! And va&$&ina and have people run into each other

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Originally Posted by BluntGamerChick

This is Part for Fun and Part serious suggestion. I recently read an article that talked about how the MMO Conan Exiles has included slide bar sizing of Male avatars for their naughty bits. Now I've always thought it very sexist that there is a size selection for breasts in MMO's but men's groins are fixed. I figured games were just unwilling to go there but now since CE has decided to level the playing field I honestly and wholeheartedly endorse that FF14 show gender equality. Sizing for one and not the other is sexists. So why not provide sizing for Male Avatars too? I Applaud the sexy outfits provided for the males but frankly without adequate equipment it might as well be a flat chested female avatar. LOL!

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There's multiple problems with the school of thought of "make everything equal", and that largely comes back to how much the game avatar is "you".

I am not Miqo'te in real life, shocker. s/

However when I was given the option to edit the V1.0 character for 2.0, I made my character the same height as I am. That's about the extent of wanting anything reflect reality. I adjusted the breasts towards the smaller size, I picked a red/purple hair consistent with what I normally use for avatars, and pretty much everything else was "does it look cute?"

The default Hyur, I didn't pick because I don't pick the boring race in a game. Why not the Lalafell or Elezen, or Roe? During Beta I didn't like how the lalafells moved (it seemed like they were hovering 2 feet in the air) , I don't like the necks on the elezen, and the Roe... just wasn't cute to me.

Now, FFXV doesn't have the option to play a Miqo'te, it has a much more capable character creator, but the character I created end result looked more like Lightning from FFXIII than my FFXIV character. XV lets you create characters with different muscle definition, weight, height, etc, by initially blending two premade characters together.

I do not want to play a character that looks exactly like me. I want to play a character that is what I feel is the best representation of my personality. To that end I aim for cute and intelligent. More "realistic" looking characters tend to not be cute at all, and instead end up being various degrees of boring.

So I'm all for better character creation, but there are certain things that aren't "character" creation at all, they're just about making ERP in a game that is rated T or M without hitting the AO rating. So making any kind of changes to the crotch ("package", "camel toe", etc) is about giving people ways to ERP, nothing else. Most characters, even in cut scenes, are seen from the navel upwards. If zoomed out to a point where you can see the character's entire body, you usually will not have their crotch in the middle of the screen. Except in this game if you're a lalafell.

To that end, a game that lets players wear all the gear the game has, while having significant character creation options is better than a game that locks you into one "skin" that is more configurable, but you have to have that appearance for the entire life of the game.

At some point, I'm sure some future MMO will allow you to upload your 23andme or ancestry.com DNA to it and produce a character that is significantly more like how you actually look than deal with all the character creation knobs and levers, and even AI can look at several photos of your face and determine how to set the character creation to best get that profile and haircut. But I want this to always be an optional thing.

It's clear that FFXIV V1.0 was trying to stay under/at the T rating, because V1.0 the breast size of the characters was tied to specific presets, there was no slider. The routinely mentioned "butt slider" was never a thing, and we keep (in jest) asking for it because the original V1.0 models were more complicated and Miqo'te has a somewhat more defined butt, and all their gear took into account their tail. Adding some kind of butt adjustment to 2.x+ was never going to be a thing, but if it was, it would be something that all races and genders would have access to. It's just present gear does not take this into account, hence why we will likely never see any changes to character creation.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's clear that FFXIV V1.0 was trying to stay under/at the T rating, because V1.0 the breast size of the characters was tied to specific presets, there was no slider.

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I honestly didn't think that was something could affect a game's rating very much.

I still remember how much of uproar people made about the fact that they removed the slider for the US release of Xenoblade Chronicles X (Which being a second party Nintendo game seemed a bit more understandable).

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I honestly didn't think that was something could affect a game's rating very much.

I still remember how much of uproar people made about the fact that they removed the slider for the US release of Xenoblade Chronicles X (Which being a second party Nintendo game seemed a bit more understandable).

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The Dead or Alive series are rated M/PEGI16, and they have jiggle physics.

https://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.aspx

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TEEN
Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up.
May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.


MATURE
Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up.
May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.


ADULTS ONLY
Content suitable only for adults ages 18 and up.
May include prolonged scenes of intense violence, graphic sexual content and/or gambling with real currency.

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Note how it goes from "suggestive" to "sexual content" to "graphic sexual content". To be fair, fighting games are simply violent and that is why they get at least a T, and only get the M if there's blood.

The problem is that "American" stores will not carry AO/PEGI18 games, even their online ones (except Steam now, who said they don't care at all.) So there is a lot of trying to dance around the rating guidelines because they're pretty much BS.

You can have a very cute looking game with no objectionable graphics at all, and have exactly one character say "shit" and now it's T rated. Yet a game that is fully of murder and mayhem in a cartoon style is also "T".

When it comes to sexual things in games, the stupidest thing will push the game rating. Yet pretty much every violent thing is acceptable as long as blood and giblets aren't shown.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Unless it's American football.

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To nitpick, that's an "American/Canadian football ball". That's their full name. But yes, I could have chosen a better example or have included that shape in it.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

your post screams strawman.

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At least put in the least bit effort of giving a counterargument. "Strawman" is better than "zero" by an infinity (though...it's not even that, that's what all languages in existence always were based on).

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Originally Posted by BluntGamerChick

Really? So your telling me that when you see a woman you don't immediately or within a few seconds take in the size of a woman's breast? And don't play the genitalia card because a woman's breasts are very sexualized. In fashion, magazines, TV, Movies, Anime and so on. A woman's Breasts are one of the defining and most obvious attribute that singles out the female gender. If your telling me that you don't take notice of a womans chest, effectively sexualizing that part, then your bold faced lying.

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Uh...I don't particularly notice other women's chests or sexualize them simply because I am one...I have a chest...it's nothing special like you guys keep making it out to be. Seriously, they're not magical portals or anything, once you've seen one chest, you've seen them all essentially...especially when I have to look at mine everyday to shower. :P

It's about the same if you were a guy and had to look at your own groin all of the time (although most men don't want to see another man's junk usually and OF COURSE would absolutely prefer staring at a woman instead), you'll eventually come to terms that they're just parts of your body and not anything special. The only time you effectively notice them is if something goes horribly wrong.

Dafaq.... is this thread for real. Okay a few things.

One, a woman's breasts and a man's groin are not the same thing anatomical, but they are the same thing conceptually. Men don't know how it feels to have something strapped to their chest, and women don't understand what it feels like to walk with something between their legs.

Second, the whole sizing issue is just a state of mind. Both males and females feel bigger is better, but that is not the case. Irl if both were as big as could be, daily activities would be harder and clothing a nightmare.

Lastly, this is a videogame, what does it matter? I am all for equality, but this just seems too far in that direction. Breasts are not sexual, they are becoming sexual, but they represent maternal power, that's why any sexual festivals don't feature breast they feature whats lower. A breast slider makes a bit more sense since breasts are "always on display" if you will. But either way the clothing texture overrides it anyway, so what does it matter.

Remember this, the old saying of boys want a girl like mom and girls want a boy like dad, is biological fact. The mom scenario is about the breast, but the dad one is not about the groin, cause eww....

Also lets see how long it takes for the misinterpretations to happen, lol

What in the ever loving truck did I just read? Deek sliders? Really? Flippin’ serious? /facepalm

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Originally Posted by RaquelleAvarosa

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How do you feel about butt size sliders though?

I do wonder if the people who are still against male bunnies (because apparently all bunnies IRL are female) would also argue against male catboys if ARR didn't add them as playable.

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Originally Posted by Fredco191

How do you feel about butt size sliders though?

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Feels like they're more meme than serious request at this point.

Either way, we don't need them either.

Wait. Do peeps really want a male bulge slider? Why? Are you trying to somehow show some kind of optimal fertility trait or something? Oh wait... the same can be said for breasts? Look, no one wants to see how well endowed you are. The RL females that zoom in on your junk are likely making fun of your insecurity while drooling at female Roe and Highlander chest sizes.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The Dead or Alive series are rated M/PEGI16, and they have jiggle physics.

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I think the main reason that series earns its M rating was because it explicitly draws attention to its fanservice elements, the...generous physics included.

Games can usually get away with things like a bust slider and/or jiggle physics (Of which XIV has both, but to a more modest extent then a lot of other games) without pushing up the rating if they're not being obviously marketed for the sexuality and avoid drawing too much attention to them through things like convenient camera angles and such.

What TC wants is basically never featured outside M/A rated games, though.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

At least put in the least bit effort of giving a counterargument. "Strawman" is better than "zero" by an infinity (though...it's not even that, that's what all languages in existence always were based on).

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I don't need to put a counterargument when you literally just made a post going on an entire tangent that had nothing to do with the original point, let alone being completely untrue.

But fine, I'll humor you.

There are male bunny suits. And there is obviously some level of attraction to the male bunny outfit if it has been asked about constantly at Fanfests, interviews and the like. Regardless of whether people wanted it masculine or feminine, they got it.

"Unappealing to the majority" only ever translates to "if you're not a female miqo'te or au ra, your opinion doesn't matter" in this game. That's just the truth, to be honest. I'm not trying to be shady but that is legitimately what it looks like to me when people request gear. And I'm glad people had to basically make a fuss about the male bunny gear because I am actually one of the individuals who appreciates the male bunny gear, not because it is feminine but because it introduces more options to male characters which this game sorely lacks.

Actually, there was a post or thread a while back that actually said 'the majority hate the male bunny outfit', except almost ALL the posts FOR the male bunny outfit were liked, while the ones against it maybe had one or two likes at most. Though that's skewed due to the fact that it is based off forum-goers rather than the entire playerbase.

My biggest issue however is that your post tried to pass off your own opinion as fact, when, at least on the forums, there's more people for the male bunny outfit than not.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

And I'm glad people had to basically make a fuss about the male bunny gear because I am actually one of the individuals who appreciates the male bunny gear, not because it is feminine but because it introduces more options to male characters which this game sorely lacks.

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This is the only reason I aren't a Roebro. There's so much bias towards the female characters in terms of glamour. If they fix it, I'll then probably end up with a fantasia addiction due to the fact I have some of the female eastern outfits (Lady, Beauty, and Faerie Tale). But yeah, another thing I'd want to see is thavnairian bustier set for males. Another option for males then (and admittedly one of my favourite glamour sets).

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Originally Posted by Fredco191

How do you feel about butt size sliders though?

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I wish they were more than a joke request at this point. I don't stare at my character's rear all day but on the few occasions where I make an outfit that would show it off... there's nothing to appreciate. :( Butt sliders for all!

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Originally Posted by Nyxn607

I would rather see every male race get a muscles slider rather than a package slider. Unless you plan on rocking briefs or tight pants, a genitalia slider for male avatars would be more or less pointless.

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actually i see quite a few male avatars running around in speedos or skimpy wear. What ever the reason i find it fun, visually enjoyable and funny as heck. In fact i was in a random group where i was paired with two guys and a girl all wearing the new bunny outfits with the fishnet stockings. The girl and the two guys were wearing them. Loved it. Made me laugh so hard. I just find it frustrating that in sexy wear, and or the armor that seems to act like a Boob booster, that the female avatars breasts are pushed up to their necks as part of that sexy look but the mens package is so flat they might as well be flat chested women. I mean if we are gonna makem look like male strippers lets do it right! LOL

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I wish they were more than a joke request at this point. I don't stare at my character's rear all day but on the few occasions where I make an outfit that would show it off... there's nothing to appreciate. :( Butt sliders for all!

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YASS! Let me recreate my Cuban booty! LMAO and my hubbies cute bubble butt. My husband plays Au Ra and frankly, and much to my pride and adoration, He is blessed both front and back. Id love to have a little more of his attributes in the game.

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Originally Posted by Fredco191

How do you feel about butt size sliders though?

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LOVE IT! I say Heck Ya! I have a big ole Cuban booty and my husbands back side is firm and round, Ide LOVE to recreate that on our avatars. I would have made a Roegadyn female to have more of a booty but my husband insisted i make an Au Ra female to match with his Au Ra male.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The Dead or Alive series are rated M/PEGI16, and they have jiggle physics.

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Mario odyssey has jiggle physics and its rated E for everyone

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

Icesis comes off as one of those millennials who think "Everything is Sexist. Everything is Racist. Everything is Homophobic," and they have to "point it all out." That, or they just have a lot of time on their hands. I don't see a lot, if any, logic behind this argument. If a woman's breasts = a man's crotch, what does that make a woman's crotch? Is that equal to anything? I don't see any requests to increase the size of the female characters' mons pubis, yet she wants to advocate increasing the male characters' groin? Sounds quite sexist to me, especially, since she's the one objectifying men's physical attributes.

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LMAO! You think I'm a Millennial! OMG I'm flattered. I do look rather good for my age but no dear, I'm not one of those whiny kids who have created a society of cry babies who need to over analyze and compartmentalize every aspect of life I'm not some silly label like Gender fluid, Non Binary, Hispanic vs Latino, African american, blah blah blah blah. No dear. In fact I've been playing MMO's since the first MMO called Ever Quest. Look it up. It was the first real MMORPG which preceded World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14 and every other MMO that exists today. My argument is that if we are going to have equality in the sexulaized portions of the male and female body, the beasts being the obvious for women and a mans package the most obvious for men. then we need to have some consistency. Why include a slider for a women's breasts rather then just have one fixed size as they do it on WOW, not that they don't sexualize with with the bouncing effect LOL, if you not going to do the same for the male. It is one sided. And while Musculature is also an obviously male attribute is not as equally sexist as the crotch would be to parallel the breasts.

We got "Race Problems" in character creation and "Gender Bias" in character creation both as top threads. We're on a roll guys.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh... I can only speak for myself but the first thing I notice isn't their crotches. It's the chiseled abs and biceps, which is what tends to be the focus. Some of the pictures they have cover up their crotch. So... not really sure if this helps your argument.

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If the Avatars are dressed in the sexy wear that i have seen popping up then of course its part of the over all look. Its like going to a male review. We don't just go there to see their perfectly sculpted bodies. If we wanted that we would hit the beach or the pool but lets face it the only guys wearing speedos there are old men and hairy weirdos LMAO. Me and My Girlfriends go to shows on girls night to see bulging dongs and have a good time seeing them shake it. And if, much to my joy, we are going to finally have the option to dress up the male avatars in bunny boy outfits and what not then i wanna see the full packaged look. I Love that a lot of players are dressing up their male avatars in equally sexy looks that in MMO's have usually only been found in the female avatar looks. But it just falls short when someone sets a buffet only to forge to PUT OUT THE MEAT! LMAO! and I'm a girl who likes her beef He he he!

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I think the equivalent of a bulge slider would be a camel toe slider, but the latter would send the game rating through the roof.

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No need they already gave Yda/Lyse pretty much had it in those tight short shorts of hers. Use to gag when they would close up on Papalymo and her crotch was right there lacking only that line. But then that just further proves my point about the visual bias of the game. If the game designers are going to be blatantly sexist in making a woman's attire skimpy, revealing and overly sexual, fine. But Id like to see equally sexualized male forms even if it is only available with player creation choices. You see the Ma'cote exotic dancers all over the place, the crafting gear at one point when i made a new outfit to up my stats had my avatars cleavage up to her neck and wearing freakin garter stockings. WHAT DOES DRESSING LIKE A HOOKER HAVE TO DO WITH CRAFTING! My post may seem silly but it has a point. Whats good for one is good for the other. IF your gonna make the females look like hookers i wanna see the men be just as cheap.

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Originally Posted by CainCrimson

I just want an ass slider. My cat girl alt looks awkwardly highschoolish no matter how mature I try to make her appear.

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yeah well, at least they don't look like children in appearance and personality like the Lalafell. I'm sorry but it smacks of pedophilia the whole race. contrary to the voices used in the cut scenes which attempt to make the Lalafell seem like fully grown mature adults the fact is that in appearance and emotes they act like children and its creepy AF to see them in the hooker wear and or portrayed as pimps like the guy in Costa Del Sol. It really makes me wonder what kind of pervs were behind the creation and concept of the Lalafell. And before people get bent out of shape about my remark let me make something bluntly and perfectly clear. I was repeatedly molested by my step father at the age of 5 so when i speak about the pedophilia feel of the Lalafell race and how they fit in this world which is filled with sexual overtones and innuendo not to mention the content of child sex trade in the main story line with Yotsuyu, then believe i am not talking out of my backside but from experience as a survivor. How the T rating is maintained because of such content and isn't upped to Mature is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by BluntGamerChick

yeah well, at least they don't look like children in appearance and personality like the Lalafell. I'm sorry but it smacks of pedophilia the whole race. contrary to the voices used in the cut scenes which attempt to make the Lalafell seem like fully grown mature adults the fact is that in appearance and emotes they act like children and its creepy AF to see them in the hooker wear and or portrayed as pimps like the guy in Costa Del Sol. It really makes me wonder what kind of pervs were behind the creation and concept of the Lalafell. And before people get bent out of shape about my remark let me make something bluntly and perfectly clear. I was repeatedly molested by my step father at the age of 5 so when i speak about the pedophilia feel of the Lalafell race and how they fit in this world which is filled with sexual overtones and innuendo not to mention the content of child sex trade in the main story line with Yotsuyu, then believe i am not talking out of my backside but from experience as a survivor. How the T rating is maintained because of such content and isn't upped to Mature is beyond me.

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But i digress, I didn't make this post to get all serious and intense about such issues but to lightheartedly and pointedly to speak on a matter of which i feel is justified. the equal portrayal of the male and female toons in their looks and attributes. Some responses have been equally fun and others glib and ridiculous but we all have our opinions and we should all feel free to express them. I am simply exercising my opinion. I've been playing MMO's a long time but FF14 is the only one to really take a step in making men just as silly sexy as the females when they made bunny outfits wearable by the males. I LOVED IT! when they did that i thought that for once a MMO might be open to the suggestion that a little more equality could be considered. Ive always been annoyed by how the same armor on males looked like hooker gear on females and in WOW it made me annoyed that my Night Elf would hop in place and her chest bounce if she was idle too long. I Love playing MMO's I just don't like the gender bias, male dominated aspect of it. the female avatars being sexy is fine i like to dress my, as i call her, Doll in pretty cloths. Just like to see the male forms as equally endowed to level the visual fun. However the Lala's can all stay undefined please. They are creepy enough as is.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I do wonder if the people who are still against male bunnies (because apparently all bunnies IRL are female) would also argue against male catboys if ARR didn't add them as playable.

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Um..."Bunnies" here refer to costume, while "catboys" refer to a race...You really think that's comparable?!

Yes, I'd think the same of a "catboy" costume as I think of a male "bunny" costume. For esthetic and thematic reasons. As in, I wouldn't be happy with them appearing.

Yes, I'd think the same about a male "bunny" race as of the "catboy" race. As in, it's perfectly fine.

Male viera were designed. The viera race was made female-only originally, but I don't really see much of an issue with giving them male variant, just like I have no issue with mermen or male ice spirits ala. yuki-onna. A race cannot be compared to a costume.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I don't need to put a counterargument when you literally just made a post going on an entire tangent that had nothing to do with the original point, let alone being completely untrue.

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It had something to do with what another poster wrote, and you didn't seem to take a problem with them. So...what are you on about here?! Just cause it's not to your fancy you negate it in whole...Quality discussion skills.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

There are male bunny suits.

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Show me a photo of a male bunny suit stylized around the traditional, female bunny version. And then show me it being used for anything seriously.
Bunny suits are work clothes in certain branches of gambling and entertainment after all. A male equivalent would need to be work clothes in similar fashion.

Don't get me wrong. I know that there are bunny-inspired costumes for male. But that's not what we are talking about, or what most requesting bunny suit for men was thinking of. Most were thinking of THAT bunny suit, in a male version. THAT bunny suit is a specific design with specific attributes to it, and a bunny suit that does not have those attributes is not what was requested. It's all part of the language use and the meaning of words. Because, yes, meanings of words do matter, regardless of how much people can devalue them.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

And there is obviously some level of attraction to the male bunny outfit if it has been asked about constantly at Fanfests, interviews and the like. Regardless of whether people wanted it masculine or feminine, they got it.

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I never said there is not. Heck. There are people attracted to feces. Should I consider a "shitty look" a mandatory inclusion into a game to cater to the need of these people?! Yes, I used something that is found attractive a LOT less than a feminine bunny suit for males would ever be, but that's only to show a point.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

"Unappealing to the majority" only ever translates to "if you're not a female miqo'te or au ra, your opinion doesn't matter" in this game.

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I'd appreciate it if you didn't put me into one bag with people that base their identity on superfluous things like that. My main character is female because it's something I'll see the whole time I'm playing this game, and I'm more attracted to female esthetics, especially since my past experiences with MMO games show that there is absolutely no chance that attractive/cool male costumes would be readily available. I couldn't care less what race or class anyone else plays, nor what I play, as far as any of my opinions go. Real life and game are two different worlds. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's as valid as that of anyone else. However I don't need to agree with an opinion of someone else just cause theirs is seemingly unpopular. I abhor people implying or outright saying "racism", "discrimination", "sexism", "oppression" and all that jazz, when vast majority of the time the matter at hand have absolutely ZERO to do with it.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Actually, there was a post or thread a while back that actually said 'the majority hate the male bunny outfit', except almost ALL the posts FOR the male bunny outfit were liked, while the ones against it maybe had one or two likes at most. Though that's skewed due to the fact that it is based off forum-goers rather than the entire playerbase.

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That's not unbelievable, nor is it relevant. First, hostile posts will get hostile responses even from people that agree with them in nature. And the "winners" will be calm while the "losers" will be hostile most of the time. That's human nature.
Second, male bunny suits, though unappealing to me and some others, are a step towards developers putting greater interest in male glamour. That's a positive, regardless of whether the costume itself is an eyesore to the person in question. Not only it. There are many costumes that are an eyesore to me, but there are many people that like them. And vice versa. It's fine, that's what "entitled to own opinion" means. I don't care how other look, in real life or game. Rather, I would like them looking appealing to me, of course, but if they don't...I just avoid focusing on them. If that's impossible and it irritates me, I can always quit the party, move away, look another way etc. I am responsible for dealing with my own issues, and matters of personal taste are...well...personal. Duh. As such non-hostile posts that try to argument the reasons behind implementation of something with objective positives and subjective negatives will clearly get more likes, because not only they'll get them from people that agree with the theme and/or ideology behind them, but also from those that simply are irked by the other side of the argument and their hostility. A defense mechanism if you will. After all, for herd animals like humans, hostile individuals are a threat.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

My biggest issue however is that your post tried to pass off your own opinion as fact, when, at least on the forums, there's more people for the male bunny outfit than not.

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I'm sorry, but my point takes into consideration the world at large. Not a small community that is largely homogenized in their tastes...because they do enjoy the same kind of a game. If you go to a concert of an artist, you'll get vast majority of them saying that the artist is great, even if the world at large will consider them to suck.

The point is simple. If the costume would be widely appealing, it would be widely used for its appeal in real life, in all seriousness. But let me ask you this. Assuming you are a man, if you were offered a job that would involve you walking around in such a costume for 8h straight, surrounded by hundredths of people...would you feel no issue at all? Yes, there are people that would be perfectly fine with that, and if you are one of them, then this approach is a fail. There's nothing wrong with that after all. But if it's something you would need to consider or have the slightest hesitation about...then there's an answer.

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Originally Posted by BluntGamerChick

However the Lala's can all stay undefined please. They are creepy enough as is.

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If a lala was well hung it would scrape the ground and probably cause a lot of pain.

You do realize the men in this game are neuters? Just look at them in the tanga briefs. There's nothing there.

As for a well-hung Lala... I'd call him Tripod.

Like a baby's arm holding an apple.

Bah. Why is this thread back?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Bah. Why is this thread back?

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It's definitely not what I expected when I opened it. I don't see how not having a slider to make the 'bulge' bigger is in any way gender bias, either. Stuff like this makes it that much harder to talk about REAL gender bias in content. RP your massive crotch if it makes you happy. The chest slider for women isn't really all that great anyway. It just lets us balance our characters out a little visually. I can't think of a single male model that would be balanced out better by having a larger or smaller penis bulge.

There's a pretty big fallacy among feminists, in which this thread is an example of.

Essentially, what you do is take the male way or experience in do something, and flip it exactly over to apply it to women, and call it equality. Like men love watching big breasts, so women must love watching big packages, right? But they don't get that men and women act differently, so this stuff doesn't really work and can actually hurt. A lot of this kind of view is a weird form of male primacy; like we define everything by the male experience and parity is obtained by letting women act like men instead. We want more women in STEM but at the same time devalue work women actually like to do.

Not to say its entirely binary, but i think alot of pushback for this kind of ideas is conscious or unconscious realization of this.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

We want more women in STEM but at the same time devalue work women actually like to do.

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I agree with most of what you said, but I think it's odd to suggest that STEM isn't work that women actually like to do. I seriously doubt there's anything hard-wired into women's minds that disincline them toward math and engineering and such - at least no more than for humans in general. I find it far more likely that the lack of women in these fields is because it's traditionally "men's territory", and women, even if inclined to partake, feel out of place (or are MADE to feel out of place by close-minded men).

The recent push to try to get women into STEM is not to try to make them "like men", but to eliminate the ridiculous notion that STEM is a "men" thing in the first place.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I agree with most of what you said, but I think it's odd to suggest that STEM isn't work that women actually like to do. I seriously doubt there's anything hard-wired into women's minds that disincline them toward math and engineering and such - at least no more than for humans in general. I find it far more likely that the lack of women in these fields is because it's traditionally "men's territory", and women, even if inclined to partake, feel out of place (or are MADE to feel out of place by close-minded men).

The recent push to try to get women into STEM is not to try to make them "like men", but to eliminate the ridiculous notion that STEM is a "men" thing in the first place.

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This is actually a really interesting thing to look into. I don't particularly want to open this can of worms but I will say I thought the same way you do here until I dug a bit deeper and actually got into some of the science surrounding the discussion. Ironic, I know xD

But yeah, if this sort of thing interests you the internet offers some interesting reads.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I agree with most of what you said, but I think it's odd to suggest that STEM isn't work that women actually like to do. I seriously doubt there's anything hard-wired into women's minds that disincline them toward math and engineering and such - at least no more than for humans in general.

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I don't think it's odd at all. Apparently, if you arrange countries based on how equal men and women are, the more equal the society the more differences there are in occupational choices between men and women. Women go into STEM less in countries with more equality.

Either there is somehow the most social obstacles to doing "men's work" in the most equal places on Earth (which I seriously doubt), or women on average prefer to do different work from men when social security and other systems in place allow more freedom to choose one's occupation. The latter seems more likely to me, but that doesn't mean there are huge differences between the way men and women think. Some small differences just show up when you look for them in large scale statistics.

"Why does SE never listen to the western audience!?"

More or less.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I seriously doubt there's anything hard-wired into women's minds that disincline them toward math and engineering and such - at least no more than for humans in general.

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To believe this statement, you'd have to completely disregard decades of scientific and psychological research that men are naturally more inclined to be logic based thinkers and women are more abstract based thinkers.

This doesn't apply to EVERY woman of course, but it is a general fact of genetics.

If it has the same jiggle physics as breasts then that slider automatically goes to the max.

Just a bunch of pantsless guys running around with their junk wongling about.

Like Final Fantasy was meant to be.