Sexual harassment

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

If most of the communication is done on Discord, SE can't really do a damn thing. The only thing they can do is get proper authority to involve.

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SE has acted out on social medias handing out bans before. Mods are definitely on the case if not already.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

SE has acted out on social medias handing out bans before. Mods are definitely on the case if not already.

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Right, and according to multiple posts before this, banning really can't deter predators. Outside of banning, the best they can do is prolly just getting the cops to involve.

I lurk primary as Teledji - a 50 year old sleazy male lalafell with a stache is the best armor! :'D
The funny part was when some random Joe found out I'm female irl through the server FB page, a few words exchanged and he is all flirty and suggestive. I'm like, whelp there goes my hopes for normal friendship and someone extra to run content with, so I told him to imagine my potato's stache brush against his cheek ... he never messaged me again. :'D

Both my mains are male lala so I honestly haven't got any kind of sexual harassment ig. Even if I do, blacklist is made for that.

2018 and people still don't know how to block people. And believe to all without any thinking.

I'm not sure if I should feel gladdened by the amount of people who have clearly never dealt with emotional manipulators and narcissists in their lives. Even if it's to the point that stating that blocking and reporting is a catch all solution to a situation involving people who are clearly enmeshed in each others lives. Because at least they haven't experienced it themselves, which is a net positive in my book. Or conversely saddened by the lack of empathy for those who /have/ who often meet with the very same responses and thus fall further into isolation because of it.

As others have stated, blocking really only works on the random creeps who approach you out of the blue who you can tell to get bent with little to no consequences. It doesn't work on people who will happily emotionally manipulate and isolate dozens of people. Treating some like kings and queens, while showing their very worst sides to a select few who then are unlikely to be believed if they ever come forward. Because 'x isn't like that', 'x would never do something like that', 'how could you do this to x?', 'x is the real victim' and so on to the point of ad nauseum. You can't block every flying monkey that comes your way when someone is determined to punish you for daring to have a spine and slander your reputation to anyone who is willing to hear it. Which coupled with the threat of losing friendships and manipulation by the abuser often keeps victims quiet.

Should SE have a bigger role in punishing people for these actions? Frankly I'd rather they just be more serious about looking into reports rather than letting them fester, for reasons stated on other pages. They can't do anything about matters stated off site or out of game but when they have clear evidence of harassment within the game itself it would be nice if they were quicker to respond to it, if at all. My main beef with this whole situation is the amount of people who can't seem to understand the difference between blocking Random Joe Blow who just DM'd you and blocking an actual, long time abuser. The latter of which is nowhere near as simple as people are making it out to be.

So, I just read the article. Why was there not a single mention of these women going to law enforcement, the GM's, or mods of the various social media services this alleged behavior took place on. I'm no lawyer but I am fairly sure that he committed blackmail if this is true which would mean that the police could be involved. I am certain the police have ways to get warrants for social media, even deleted messages since companies keep the deleted messages for a while after the user deletes them.

In the end reading this reminds me of that article Rolling Stones Magazine ran back in November of 2014 about the fraternity. You know, the one where the woman whose last name was withheld to keep her an "Anonymouse Jane", weaved a sensorious tale to the author of the article but never reported the alleged crime to ANY one in authority. The fiasco that was disproving that article and the fallout thereafter is probably why people are calling this article into question. Well, that, and the fact the author has Moderator privileges and locked the comments section.

In the end, I think people are getting weary of these stories with "anonymous sources" that turn out to be bogus but end up screwing up or splitting the community.

I think what people forget (or maybe aren't aware of) about sexual harassment is that it's not always some rando coming up to you and being like "hey you're sexy" and running off. More often than not, it's done by someone you know. A friend, a partner, a friend of a friend, an FC mate, etc. and it makes it way more complicated, and way more personal.

Sexual harassment is your FC leader saying "hey ERP with me or send me nudes or I'll turn everyone in the FC against you". It can be even scarier if you happen to have some irl connection with them. Maybe you play with your roommate and their boyfriend, and that boyfriend starts pressuring you in-game to do things you're not comfortable doing. If you take action you could face real life consequences. I know people will say that's not in the game so it doesn't count, but like I said; it's usually someone you know, and it can be very complicated.

Just like sexual harassment irl, blocking/avoiding a person isn't guaranteed to make it stop. Instead we should be teaching people to respect other people's boundaries. Not leaving it up to the victim to solve the problem.

Oh my the mobile site is awful...can't delete / edit? Oh well. Cliff notes version then:

It extends beyond the game, you can't "just block them". It wouldn't work in a "real life" dispute so to speak so why would it here? Actually read it and get context. Know it all responses like that are making me embarrassed for the people saying them. You think they're you're friend, you're working on a big community project, they can blackmail...come on. Don't enable stuff like this.

One time, I seat myself on a lalafell (by mistake). Is it sexueal herrasment ?

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Its just kids and their FC dramas. Only good for laughing material and cringe.

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Because essentially holding a girl hostage for 2 months is simply FC drama.

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Originally Posted by Enla

You can't block every flying monkey that comes your way when someone is determined to punish you for daring to have a spine and slander your reputation to anyone who is willing to hear it. Which coupled with the threat of losing friendships and manipulation by the abuser often keeps victims quiet.

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But the thing is, you can block them all. The busy status prevents anyone from contacting you privately. Losing reputation means nothing outside of professional circles because any community willing to believe slander is too rotten to be a part of anyway. If you prioritize your self worth higher than any relationship, these abusers have no leverage. I am not saying it's easy, but I am saying that this approach is more effective than just silently taking the abuse for fear of losing your social circles and hoping it will go away one day.

The part where things get tricky is when the abuser is someone who might arrive at your physical location to do who knows what, or someone who has the ability to affect your livelihood. Then it's time to contact the authorities. Again, simply tolerating it is not an effective way to ensure your safety.

Square Enix can do very little in a situation involving out of game contact. I think in-game communities are the ones capable of curbing harassment in the gaming circles. Isolate every person using common harassment tactics like spreading nudes, putting people in a negative light or asking people to message spam someone. If abusers use the community as a tool for harassment that means at some point they will reach out to other people to gain support and to act on their behalf, thus revealing themselves.

For a community that tends to have a fairly good reputation in the MMO market, some of the comments that have been made are rather disturbing. I seriously question those who have said that seeing something like this brought humor to them, or that it was irrelevant to the community. Whatever happened to basic human decency? Have we gotten so jaded over the years that this is the typical response to situations like this? Whether we like it or not, this story does matter, because if something like this is now getting exposed, how many more silent cases are happening. This may be uncommon for FFXIV, but it is still something that the community needs to be aware of nonetheless. This is not something worth being mocked or derided upon. Regardless of the facts presented to this point and whether the truth is fully in the light right now, the fact is that real lives are being negatively affected.

This isn’t just some ‘FC drama’ nor is it some bait for popcorn. Something like this has bled into real life. If this was a family member of yours and they were essentially held hostage for two months, would you be laughing at them when you finally get ahold of them, not knowing if they were a victim of sexual assault or worse? Or if their boss for a fansite, one of the larger fansites for this community, was threatening them and telling them to provide nudes or jump on Skype to perform lewd acts, would you still look that family member in the eye and laugh at them?

The folks who say that law enforcement is an easy call away do not understand just how hard it is to get out of a situation like this, of how much damage it does to your mind. It takes a long time to build the strength to even get out of a situation like this. Especially if you were already in an emotionally compromising state of mind as it were. For a healthy, rational, and strong person, yes, perhaps it is a simple choice to make.

But for a victim who feels powerless, the choice is not that simple. Some of the comments that have mocked and laughed at a situation like this just reinforces this. How is something like this even remotely amusing?

Funny how this very thread is proving the point. Hopefully it will encourage more people to come out and talk about their issues. And make more people aware than not everything is "petty drama". And very remotely maybe make some realize what they might be doing to others; abusing their position and trust to make people do asinine things.

Some (most?) people seem to dismiss how easily they can be manipulated. I believe to read a study that concluded with: the more you think you can't be influenced the easier you are to influence. Just staying aware of it, already improves your situation. And those people who the tactics worked on were specifically vulnerable to it. MMOs are another social space and you need to take care participating in them. Think of yourself when you were younger and how many silly things you did, or when you were in love. Social interactions are not 'good' or 'bad', as aren't people. Blacklist might work for many cases but ultimately it's like putting a band-aid on an infected wound.

Lastly I need to say that no "dirt" should hold anyone back from talking about these issues. Your sexuality is not something that should be held against you (assuming consent from both). And those who do, need to grow the hell up.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Looking over alot of these replies I guess this community isn't nearly as decent as I thought...

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So what do you want this community to do? Are you here just to stir the pot or are you looking for a particular outcome? People's posts are reflective of how they feel about the entire situation. He is not a community leader, just someone popular with a fan site. Also, there are ways to black list them in game and report them, you can block someone on all your social media, block them on discord. Outside of that, what can we or SE do? Nothing... so I don't know if you are just trying to rile everyone up ? What is your agenda here because i think its the former.

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Originally Posted by Corfish

Because essentially holding a girl hostage for 2 months is simply FC drama.

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She could have left. There's an idea. lol.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

She could have left. There's an idea. lol.

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Do you think everyone lives down the road from the police? That people who are abducted like this automatically know the geography of where they're being held? That no one lives in remote places? That there is no such thing as dangerous wildlife, terrain or weather? That no one fears leaving would anger an abuser to potentially take more drastic measures to make them stay? That abusers never take measures to make it very difficult for victims to leave or contact someone?

Try thinking for a change. If life was always so easy mental and physical abuse wouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

MODS NEED TO CONDUCT A FULL INVESTAGATION ON ALL THE PARTIES INVOLVED.

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Why stop there? Why not investigate everyone that has ever played the game? Everyone could be guilty of something! Or they (not we) can focus on the information given to them and contact who they need to contact. They can be SE or any business connected to it. Mud slinging and witch hunts won't work, are uncivilized, and often drag innocent people into it. They are often counter-productive, as now cooler heads have to focus on those conducting the witch hunt to cool themselves.

The problem is kinda a double edge sword. Ofcourse you have *real victimes* of sexual harassment. But things can be made up very easy these days and because of these fakes the line of real and fake is thin.

But as someone who has been false accused of horrible things by someone ingame. Only because I rejected for not going out with her irl. This way the creep becomes the victim and the victim the creep. You cannot defend yourself and you will be judge to punishment without knowing. Because most things happend behind my back. I heard it months later and in those months I was on friendly terms with her. Still feel the result of it today.....

I'm having a hard time understanding how a set of polygons can be sexually harassed..........

Those of you who harass.

Those of you who will continue your abject mockery of those who suffer it.

Those of you who actively strive to make this situation worse.

You are all one and the same.

You are the problem.

You have a choice.

Fix yourself.

Nobody owes you a second chance.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings!

We understand that this is a very sensitive topic which has the potential to generate wildly different (and opposing) perspectives and points of view. Should this discussion be allowed to continue, we would ask that everyone remain mindful of this potential within the discussion and maintain a civil tone when speaking with the people behind the posts that you may or may not agree with.

As a general rule of thumb for the discussion, please do keep in mind the rules of the forum that may become relevant to this discussion. In particular, please do not use the forum as a means to name and shame other people when discussing the topic or personal experiences and consider the tone of your post in an effort to avoid being intentionally insulting, inflammatory, or harassing of other people. If you feel that a post is in violation of the rules, please report it instead of responding to it so that the moderation team can handle it appropriately.

Hopefully this can facilitate a productive discussion instead of attacks on one another that result in the thread being closed or removed. Thank you for your understanding.

LGM Enkrateia

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I'm just going to leave this here because I think some people forgot...

Dont get me wrong. I sympathize for the abused.

But I hate seeing people who dont use common sense.

Calling people trolls for a difference of views and perspective. Quite childish.

While I am not going to say this case was untrue, but people lie on the internet. It seems as if people want the community to witch hunt those that are preserved as predators. Most of the time I do not think the community is provided enough evidence to make that call. Report it to SE, and the proper authorities if you feel your well being is at risk. I personally will never see a witch hunt as a valid reason, I still firmly believe in someone being Innocent until proven guilty.

Granted, I understand that those who have been personally impacted by such these tend to go based off their emotional response, and that is understandable. However, asking SE or the authorities to do the same just does not seem right. Nevertheless, let us try to keep this civil since as the GM mentioned it is possible to have a productive discussion.

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Originally Posted by Lucinda

Block and report does NOT work all the time. If a person has the means to make your life a misery, they can and they will.

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I'm just going to point out this. If someone really wants to make your life hell they can, especially in this game where they can keep remaking characters. And most of the time, "proper authority" can't help you in situations like this.

I'm severely disappointed in some of the comments on this thread. The person in question specifically said not only did he get his kicks off this, but he also targeted the most vulnerable....Just because you arent in the position the victims are, that you can just easily "block and report" doesn't mean it makes it any less serious. As a lot of this fell outside the game there is also only so much SE can do about it. However, there is nothing wrong with adding awareness to the subject. Whether real life or virtual, all abuse is real. The fact jokes are being made and this is being blown off by some, makes me really sad for the state of the world. For we are but a few, however, these views are widely shared.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

The problem is kinda a double edge sword. Ofcourse you have *real victimes* of sexual harassment. But things can be made up very easy these days and because of these fakes the line of real and fake is thin.

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You are aware that very rarely are accusations false, right? Sure there are some, but people don't usually accuse others of things like this because of the stigma and victim blaming that happens. There's no glory in accusing someone of sexually harassing or assaulting you.

And it's funny that people just say nothing can be done because SE doesn't have the power to do.... whatever it is they think we expect them to do. It's easier to shoulder the blame onto SE instead of admitting lots of us stand by and let sexual harassment happen.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Okay enjoy your abuse that you choose to embrace.

That "you" choose.

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And that's....... a horrific statement. I'm actually kind of nauseous at the thought of someone actually believing people "choose to embrace" abuse.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

You are aware that very rarely are accusations false, right? Sure there are some, but people don't usually accuse others of things like this because of the stigma and victim blaming that happens. There's no glory in accusing someone of sexually harassing or assaulting you.

And it's funny that people just say nothing can be done because SE doesn't have the power to do.... whatever it is they think we expect them to do. It's easier to shoulder the blame onto SE instead of admitting lots of us stand by and let sexual harassment happen.

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I'd say its opposite - most accusation are false to gain something from it or ruin someone's life. You can look at gamergate and how all journos accused them in all possible sins in the world just to not get exposed themselves.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

I'd say its opposite - most accusation are false to gain something from it or ruin someone's life. You can look at gamergate and how all journos accused them in all possible sins in the world just to not get exposed themselves.

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Oh, I thought you were done trolling. I guess not.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

I personally will never see a witch hunt as a valid reason, I still firmly believe in someone being Innocent until proven guilty.

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The pc gamer article has numerous screenshots of that guy admitting to his abusive behaviour and that he is very aware that he has a talent for finding women who fall for his methods.

Also though he said he stepped down as editor of The Moogle Post, the truth is he gave login details for the magazine's social media accounts only to those who are on his side and he is now demanding the position of editor be returned to him. Him stepping down was a publicity stunt at best. He is hoping his allies will help him.

I'm not fond of witch hunting...but this guy is seriously asking for it. He just isn't stopping his manipulative behaviour. I suppose his ego has outgrown logic as he is too used to getting his way.

You can find out more detail on ffxiv reddit. I am not going to link it in case this is against any witch hunting related forum rules.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

I'd say its opposite - most accusation are false to gain something from it or ruin someone's life.

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The prevalence of false reporting is between 2% and 10%

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Source

People aren't doing this thing for kicks.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

I'd say its opposite - most accusation are false to gain something from it or ruin someone's life. You can look at gamergate and how all journos accused them in all possible sins in the world just to not get exposed themselves.

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Everything I saw about gamergate made it look like a vile cesspit that attracted the worst of the gaming community.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

I'd say its opposite - most accusation are false to gain something from it or ruin someone's life. You can look at gamergate and how all journos accused them in all possible sins in the world just to not get exposed themselves.

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"Look At Gamergate"

ah, yes, the man-baby movement. Let's look to them for moral enlightenment. Genius.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Source

People aren't doing this thing for kicks.

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Thank you for a source on that. I knew that info was out there somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Oh, I thought you were done trolling. I guess not.

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Maybe it depends on your background, I can tell you where I grew people use to make false accusations about their boyfriends. Hell I have seen some cases where dudes would claim their girlfriend cheated on them as a reason to explain the breakup, even if it was not true. Sure some of it was grounded in reality, but often times they would up play the situation to give it more impact. This is simply my anecdotal view of it, hell one of my favorite high school teacher was let go because our class made accusations about him. I have met people that lie about being deaf just to avoid using voice chat instead of just telling the group they do not feel like using chat. People lie about the weirdest things or the strangest of reasons.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Maybe it depends on your background, I can tell you where I grew people use to make false accusations about their boyfriends. Sure some of it was grounded in reality, but often times they would up play the situation to give it more impact. This is simply my anecdotal view of it, hell one of my favorite high school teacher was let go because our class made accusations about him. I have met people that lie about being deaf just to avoid using voice chat instead of just telling the group they do not feel like using chat. People lie about the weirdest things or the strangest of reasons.

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Your examples are skewed because the latter is ultimately harmless and probably born out of that person's insecurities and anxieties, to avoid being peer pressured into joining the chat. Also, you yourself admitted it was an anecdotal example (and is still ultimately a form of abuse, mind, just from the other direction). No one said false accusations don't exist, but they are factually the minority.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Your examples are skewed because the latter is ultimately harmless and probably born out of that person's insecurities and anxieties, to avoid being peer pressured into joining the chat. Also, you yourself admitted it was an anecdotal example. No one said false accusations don't exist, but they are factually the minority.

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Point I am trying to make is people lie, please do not misunderstand what I was trying to say. If something can factually be proven sure witch hunt away, but let us be real how many people honestly would be willing to wait for all the facts to come out before starting the witch hunt? As someone else mentioned someone should be viewed as innocent until proven guilty however, in this day and age it seems to be the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Point I am trying to make is people lie, please do not misunderstand what I was trying to say. If something can factually be proven sure witch hunt away, but let us be real how many people honestly would be willing to wait for all the facts to come out before starting the witch hunt?

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I'll counter that with a problematic aspect of this - in most situations, specifically of systematic abuse the kind of which that PCGamer article was about, you won't find evidence because the abuser is just that good at keeping themselves clean (unless they're stupid enough to admit it in written chat that can be saved...). Part of it is even being nice and proper with other people, so that when their victim comes clean, they'll have a series of character witnesses lined up to tell everyone how good and just they are. What evidence to wait for then when it's a situation created by the offender to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Point I am trying to make is people lie

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The issue is, there's a lot of evidence in this case. Yes people lie. The deaf/voice chat one may just be to avoid questions on why. example: i hate meat, its gross and i dont know why people eat it. After years of just saying i hate meat then getting 50 questions as to why and im just not eating the right kinds or cooking it right, its far easier to just say im a vegetarian. I'm not. It's a lie. There are some meat products I do eat. But I got sick of the 50 questions and saying i'm a vegetarian tends to end up with "oh....ok" instead of more questions. Same can be said for voice chat esp if its because of anxiety or depression.

However that is not what is going on here. Regardless the commentors backgrounds there should be at least a small about of sympathy or empathy to at least understand the situation. Not to immediately discredit it because of "your background" or "it's never happened to me so it never happens" or "everybody lies" kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I'll counter that with a problematic aspect of this - in most situations, specifically of systematic abuse the kind of which that PCGamer article was about, you won't find evidence because the abuser is just that good at keeping themselves clean. Part of it is even being nice and proper with other people, so that when their victim comes clean, they'll have a series of character witnesses lined up to tell everyone how good and just they are. What evidence to wait for then when it's a situation created by the offender to begin with?

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I am not expect on the subject nor an investigator, but I am sure these types of cases take as long as they do to look into due to that very reason. Even so should we really pass judgement without having all the facts? That does not seem messed up in the slightest? Sure it may be a small chance, but what happens if people blindly follow the mob and it turns out the accusations were false that persons life is ruined, and the same could be said vice versa I agree. That is what makes these types of situation difficult, and as community we have the ability to enact switch judgement because we can act on our emotional impulses. Their must be a reason why the authorities do not, it is damning on either side no matter how you cut it. Maybe I am odd, but while I am sympathetic to the victims I do not agree with viewing someone as guilty until proven innocent because it is easier.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

The issue is, there's a lot of evidence in this case. Yes people lie. The deaf/voice chat one may just be to avoid questions on why. example: i hate meat, its gross and i dont know why people eat it. After years of just saying i hate meat then getting 50 questions as to why and im just not eating the right kinds or cooking it right, its far easier to just say im a vegetarian. I'm not. It's a lie. There are some meat products I do eat. But I got sick of the 50 questions and saying i'm a vegetarian tends to end up with "oh....ok" instead of more questions. Same can be said for voice chat esp if its because of anxiety or depression.

However that is not what is going on here. Regardless the commentors backgrounds there should be at least a small about of sympathy or empathy to at least understand the situation. Not to immediately discredit it because of "your background" or "it's never happened to me so it never happens" or "everybody lies" kind of thing.

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Please do not get me wrong I never discredited the person I am sympathetic to them, as I said might be odd but I am not going to pick a side based off one sides story. I am talking generally about abuse not just this case.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Point I am trying to make is people lie, please do not misunderstand what I was trying to say. If something can factually be proven sure witch hunt away, but let us be real how many people honestly would be willing to wait for all the facts to come out before starting the witch hunt? As someone else mentioned someone should be viewed as innocent until proven guilty however, in this day and age it seems to be the other way around.

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You need to read the article. There are numerous screenshots proving the ex TMP editor was admitting to his abusive behaviour and that he is talented at targeting women who can be preyed upon. Furthermore when he stepped down as editor he gave TMP social media logins only to those who allied with him, and he is now demanding his position be returned.

Yes people do lie but the amount of accusations is shocking. They can't all be lying, that's ridiculous. What do they have to gain from lying? Get control over TMP? Well there's no guarantee that the old editor wouldn't have just dissolved it instead of handing over control, or replace all the staff who tried to stand against him. If they really wanted TMP they could have just left in a mass exodus and made their own magazine instead. The most likely reason for revealing his abuse is that all the victims were horrified to find out that he has been engaging in this behaviour for years and want to break the cycle for good.

Even being anonymous it's not easy to come out as a victim. Victim blaming is very real and you only need to look at this thread to see how common it is. Bad enough to be a victim and then have people trying to shame you for being stupid. I really hope they're not reading this thread because some truly horrific statements have been made about them.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Their must be a reason why the authorities do not

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The authorities likely don't do anything because of the offender's background (white, male, high class, etc), and the most common gender of the victim, which makes them more interested in asking the victim what they wore at the time of the incident than what actually happened.
Also, do keep in mind that for the most part, true offenses will never be a one time thing. That's why so often when one victim comes forward, a string of others follows. The few times I can think of I heard in the news where the accusations were false truly had a single accuser. In the case that brought this thread about, there are numerous victims throwing blame. It's usually a good indicator of how much truth there is to a claim.