(Rant Post) Why Does It Feel Like Giving Advice Is Evil?

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Originally Posted by Foe

@OP It is simply not about what you want. What you are trying to do, by your own admission, is prescribe methods for being optimal because it's gratifying to you. This is how you elect to spend your time. What escapes you then is that not everyone has the same aim/goals as you for when they join. Some people are content to not bother themselves with the effort required to be optimal but have more fun just playing it loose. Or some people prefer to learn things at their own pace and having other people dictate to them is distracting.

Point is, offering help is beautiful, but only when it's specifically asked for. If it's not being asked for, it shouldn't be baffling to imagine ways it can be seen as imposing instead. To the argument that they're impeding the party, then by all means, vote dismiss. That said, it's my belief that it's not our place to tell other people how to use their time unless they ask directly. For the 27 people who liked your post, this escapes them as well.

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If people wouldn't be such special snowflakes and would actually be interested in what they do they would take every help if they don't know better doesn't matter if they asked for it or if a friendly player offers the help. But here in FF the "YOU DON'T PAY MA SUB" people are somewhat a huge part of the community.

As a mentor, I often feel like I am the idiot for trying to help players on this game.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Unsolicited advice happens when you are incompetent at your job. Easiest way to avoid these occurrences is to be competent.

Being dead weight and causing wipes thus wasting time and effort is a hell of a lot more rude than being told what to do.

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Please pardon my unsolicited advice, but I wouldn't recommend that philosophy out in the real world where you don't have the protection of physical distance and anonymity.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

If people wouldn't be such special snowflakes and would actually be interested in what they do they would take every help if they don't know better doesn't matter if they asked for it or if a friendly player offers the help. But here in FF the "YOU DON'T PAY MA SUB" people are somewhat a huge part of the community.

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The whole "you don't pay my sub" thing works both ways.

I don't pay your sub, so you can use that to tell me to f off, OK. You don't pay my sub, therefore I will remove you from the party to so you do not waste the party members time and my time.

You is used as a general term, not you personally.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Please pardon my unsolicited advice, but I wouldn't recommend that philosophy out in the real world where you don't have the protection of physical distance and anonymity.

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I'm not much different in real life. At my real life job I've directly called multiple coworkers stupid for not understanding something basic they learn in the first week of training which without knowing, you will be useless in the line of work i'm in.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Please pardon my unsolicited advice, but I wouldn't recommend that philosophy out in the real world where you don't have the protection of physical distance and anonymity.

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It's not too far off from real world expectations. If you're performing a task and you're doing something incorrectly, there are a few things that'll happen. You'll get scolded, you'll be given advice how to do it properly, or no one will care because apathy.

If anything, people have more reason to be lax about this in FFXIV than they would in the 'real world', because the consequences of messing up out there are much different than in an online game. If someone messes up here, the worst that happens is that it wastes people's time. That's not a good thing, but it's still relatively harmless when you think about all the things that could go wrong outside of a video game. People will hold eachother to higher standards when it's not a game and the task they're performing matters more.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

The whole "you don't pay my sub" thing works both ways.

I don't pay your sub, so you can use that to tell me to f off, OK. You don't pay my sub, therefore I will remove you from the party to so you do not waste the party members time and my time.

You is used as a general term, not you personally.

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I know you didn't mean me and i agree with you.

The part that these people don't get is that everyone pays a sub and that they are not the kings/queens of this game and if they start ruining the fun for the other group members, they'll get kicked...and probably run straight to the forum and complain that they've got kicked or report the other players for kick abuse.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

This is what I do: I only give advice if asked and if I'm not happy with a party I leave.

Keep it simple.



I advise against this, it feels like you are speaking to a child.

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Uh children actually do play this game FYI

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

The whole "you don't pay my sub" thing works both ways.

I don't pay your sub, so you can use that to tell me to f off, OK. You don't pay my sub, therefore I will remove you from the party to so you do not waste the party members time and my time.

You is used as a general term, not you personally.



I'm not much different in real life. At my real life job I've directly called multiple coworkers stupid for not understanding something basic they learn in the first week of training which without knowing, you will be useless in the line of work i'm in.

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You must not be a good lawyer. Lol trying to resolve this issue by kicking people solves nothing. Does it make you feel proud you ‘kicked ‘ someOne from the GAME? Lol it’s a game and a dungeon takes 15 min. Play though and maybe try some positive reinforcement

It doesn't really matter if it's a 'game'. It's not a single player experience that we're dealing with but rather a multiplayer experience. In other words, it's a group effort and there's the time of multiple players at stake. If someone isn't pulling their weight then they risk being called out. Constructive criticism should be embraced but if there's one thing I've learned from this community it's that a considerable portion of players like to overreact to even the most humble piece of feedback. It's a sad reflection of modern society, I suppose - and it's also why Japanese players have higher clear rates than EU and NA players on average. They take feedback into account and value working together.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Let's start addressing this long post with one word: connotation. The same word can have very different connotations. When I used the word 'job,' I was very clearly using the word in the connotation of paid employment. If you choose to fixate on this word, invoke a different connotation, and go into off-topic tangents, good for you I guess?

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And Crystal_Raven was using it as in the job you play in this game. You were the one who brought up the real-life connotation of “job”:

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Unsolicited advice happens when you are incompetent at your job. Easiest way to avoid these occurrences is to be competent.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Yes, because unsolicited advice only occurs in the work place, right?

Look, if you're being paid to do a job, and you're doing it poorly, then yes, you can't complain about being told what to do. That is just the nature of paid employment in results-based businesses. Yet when it comes to a game, a leisure activity, or a hobby? Yes, that unsolicited advice is very rude, which is why you see more negative reactions to it than positive. It's really amazing that in social games (like MMOs) that so many players (the advice givers) cannot grasp this basic social tenet.

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Hence why they corrected you.

I have not read the thread, and I my view might be wrong but I have always viewed pick up groups, duty finder runs as random encounters of people that are not my friend, coworkers, shared ally or whatever. They are simply strangers, and just as I would not walk up to a stranger and tell them how to do their job or task I will not do the same in pick up groups or duty finder groups. I know for some that may seem strange however, for me I simply cannot be bothered to show / teach stranger how do their job, I do enough of that with my friends. Though I do welcome advice, I just do not bother to give it since I guess I am not that type of person.

At the core though no matter what tone one uses if you offer advice I feel most people simply see "You suck, get gud kid."

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

I'm not much different in real life. At my real life job I've directly called multiple coworkers stupid for not understanding something basic they learn in the first week of training which without knowing, you will be useless in the line of work i'm in.

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At my job you wouldn't last long if you behave like a jerk. I certainly wouldn't put up with you as a co-worker. You wouldn't treat me or my team that way whether you were right or not. If you cant make your point respectfully, you don't have one.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Your people skills seem to be severely lacking.

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You must have never worked in retail

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Originally Posted by Averax

You must have never worked in retail

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I worked in retail for 4 years. Of course there were some absolute pricks, and there were several times I went to the back in tears after an encounter, but that doesn't mean people as a whole are stupid and not worth being friendly/helpful to. Working in retail doesn't turn a person into a jaded arse by itself.

Maybe I will say some stuff many people already pointed out. So please forgive me for repeating.

I helped on a daily basis from 2.0 till 3.0. At the time most people where still gradefull and more open to being helped in DF or just in the open world. But years passed and most people have there own little groups with friends, FC and Linkshells. Socializing is not needed anymore, so you get in DF most of the time only hello's and bye's. Some dont even say anything and will only open fire when things are going bad. It will be easier to ignore, bark and being mean in general in DF.

You also have helpers who just give bad advice. Not in a sense of different playstyle, just plain bad advice. Like dont use the cannons in Steps of faith. I still wipe alot there...

Last and the most important one. People are so fast offended the last 2-3 years and play the victim card so easy it's kinda sad. Even if you dont have the same opinion they are offended.

it's simple don't give advice unless asked, if you do then what happens next is on you.

even yoshi p said to just pick up the slack of the team.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it's simple don't give advice unless asked, if you do then what happens next is on you.

even yoshi p said to just pick up the slack of the team.

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These two sentences are so wrong one's head may implode when trying to understand them in an MMO context.

I definitely feel you. I usually don't receive lip for giving advice (and asking for advice) when it comes to dungeons, raids, and trials, but I have been given a lot of beef over other advice and it usually does come down to tone. I have a lot of patience when it comes to raids and dungeons (unless it's new and scary and math is involved for the very first time, lol), but I tend to lose patience in other circumstances and it definitely shows.

What I do (in a raid at least) is if I notice there seem to be some newbies or players who don't understand/know the mechs after the first boss or two , I'll give them a mild briefing/warning before the next. I'll also type in a quick reminder to engage with certain mechs at a certain time in the chat. I'll use LoA as a quick example: we get to the final boss. I put a waymarker on our pad and tell them "when he casts ancient flare, run back to this pad" and that's usually all I'll say. I might give quick advice to use focus target to know when he'll do it, but I'll also type in "pads" and run back to the pad every time he casts it. It usually helps and people have yet to get snippy with me over it.

One time someone did get snippy with me was in Circus Tower (final boss) when I said "when the purple aoes show up, stack on them" some responded "u dont pay my sub." I ignored the lip and proceeded as normal. When the purple aoes showed up, I typed in "stack." Of course, the newbies who didn't listen died. The second time we had to stack up on the purple aoes, I typed in "stack" again and they all understood and got it the second time.

So, in the event there really is no time to ask "do you want the mechs" like in a raid, it's best to observe your group. If they seem to understand for the most part (there will always be slip-ups so there's no need to give advice over the occasional slip-up, it's when it's frequent that you can tell something is off), then don't give advice. If a good number in your party don't understand, then do give advice.

For trials, because everyone waits in the beginning, it's easier to ask if they want the lowdown. If they wipe once, can ask if they'd like to go over the mechs and such. If they agree to it, you can point out some things you've noticed and whatnot.

Unless a player is severely holding your group back which, let's be fair, is unlikely in DF content - giving unsolicited advice is rarely going to be received well. On the internet, in a pressured environment.
Or at least singling a person out is - that's rarely going to end well. Posting tactics indiscriminately in new content is usually a good idea - it's to the benefit of everyone who may be new/unsure.
But generally I'd say it's best to just grin and bear it and/or that's what the kick button is for- or remove yourself from the situation. Not a perfect solution but we're talking about PuG content here - and people are going to be people wherever you encounter them.

I thought you were going to talk about mentor roulette experience, NN chat or help your follower FC members...but PF content without being the party leader? No one ask for your help, get your own party if you don't like how the member react to you.

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Originally Posted by LaurieB

I wish it hadn't affected you all this way. I look to mentors and more experienced people than me to work my way through the game. I suppose it will be harder to ask for advice now. I always hoped that one day when I felt I was geared and ready for the new content that I could get a run with a mentor that would advise on the best course to take, my rotations, gear and then I might feel like I could do it. As it stands, no...I haven't tried it yet. I hope you all don't give up on all of us. I appreciate you so much!!

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New content comes out with new gears. And you dont have to wait for then for improving your rotation plus no one will have time to teach you your rotation in the instance and let the other 6 wait there. You can always practice it NOW on a strike dummy and ask advance here and there (forum, guide, your FC) if you really care.

Because you're 'calling them out' for low DPS, failing at mechanics, etc.

Many people just like to leech and have no intention to actually really play the game decent.

Don't waste your time, kick and put on ignore list.

SE needs to increase the cap on blacklist, it's almost full with those bad players being on it.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Unless a player is severely holding your group back which, let's be fair, is unlikely in DF content

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Maybe you were lucky and me unlucky. But in DF trails alot of wipes with new guys or lv 70 peeps. Moogle and Typhon are a hell at the moment... if you wanna try it to explain they go in butthurt mode and leave :(

I never ask for advise inside a dungeon or instance in progress. Usually, mentors will state advice in the beginning of the instance, or I ask BEFORE I enter and yes I do practice before hand. No I don't "waste other's time" nor do I expect special treatment. Mentor's usually use "Bard..use this" one sentence, if its a rotation problem I missed. No worries...I don't "waste your time" in this game. I ask before, but do appreciate one liners if needed in dungeons. But I'm learning in this game, never ask in dungeons, so I got that part down.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

You must not be a good lawyer. Lol trying to resolve this issue by kicking people solves nothing. Does it make you feel proud you ‘kicked ‘ someOne from the GAME? Lol it’s a game and a dungeon takes 15 min. Play though and maybe try some positive reinforcement

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Soooo people are not allowed to explain things without people getting triggered and on top of that they are not allowed to kick people? If you waste my time and don't take advise i'm gonna boot you right out of my party because its 3 or more peoples time that you waste.

I'm tired of carrying people through content just because they think that they can do what they want just because they pay a sub. Guess what, the rest of the party also pays a sub.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And Crystal_Raven was using it as in the job you play in this game. You were the one who brought up the real-life connotation of “job”:





Hence why they corrected you.

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You really need to re-read the conversation.

Its funny because I LOVE advice and tips. Like, yes! Please! help me be better at this job that I'm doing , especially if its a job that's not one of my mains and im not 100% sure how to do it efficiently. Whenever I'm offered advice I always reply with a "Thanks! I'll try it out!" or ask a follow up question if I'm not sure. I don't know why some people are so against it.

Also, On the other side of the boat when I'm offering advice to healers because its a job that I like to think I'm pretty proficient in, I like to word my advice as politely as possible because some people just don't like advice lol people need to grow up

If people are bad and not pulling their weight and refusing to learn/expecting everyone else to do everything for them so they can get carried then i will refuse to play with them.
I'm not going to spend an hour or more getting killed over and over by somebody elses foolishness.

Off course, this occasionally results in them cussing me out for abandoning and leaving them to die, and refusing to accept responsibility for their own failings.
No, i am not going to do your work for you, i don't care how much you bitch and rant about your "Obvious superiority"

If you are particularly aggravating about it i may also deign to use the /dance Emote on top of your corpse before leaving.
As in literal dancing on your grave.

As for trying to teach them to do better, that never works, and this thread has made is obvious that the attempt is not welcome anyway.
So abandoning instance is the only thing that can be done when confronted with these people.

For the record, i use a three strike system.
You get a second chance, and a third chance, but mess that up as well, and i'm out.

Generally speaking, I have found it best to just let people play unless what someone is doing is clearly disruptive. You can't mentor a player who doesn't want it, and almost all players can think of someone who they feel kind of showed them how to get better. That is their mentor. That is who they will listen to. Not the guy/girl with a crown 'trying' to give advice during an instance that very likely wasn't asked for.

As a mentor, it is not your obligation to correct the mistakes players make during instances, nor is it your duty to make players better. These two responsibilities fall solely on the player him/herself. You can explain mechanics all day, but you do not control that player's character. And players who truly want to get better go and seek out the information that will help them do so on their own. They may ask you, someone else, look up stuff on the internet, change configurations, and also be more receptive to criticism inside of an instance.

People not liking being told how to play goes back way before MMOs. I am quite certain several of you can recall trying to give a close friend staying over with you some tips while they're playing a game you know inside and out with the response, "JUST LET ME PLAY!" It's when they have trouble getting past something that they are all ears.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

I thought you were going to talk about mentor roulette experience, NN chat or help your follower FC members...but PF content without being the party leader? No one ask for your help, get your own party if you don't like how the member react to you.

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Oh, Byakko had enough leg sweeps when I made my own, don't worry that's a thing.

Sadly, I don't have Mentor Roulette access, as I still haven't beaten the Heavensward EX trials... specifically Sophia and Zurvan. I also am rarely in NN chat, and it's for roughly the same reason as this rant was made. Advice hitting a brick wall (Doesn't help it's Balmung NN.)

As for nobody asking for my help, I didn't ask to hit a brick wall either. In the EX trial example, the strat the party was using, was not working for the party. Nobody was getting it right because they kept forgetting which way was south. So my idea was only to help make it easier on the party. If you died 5 times to the exact same mechanic, for the same exact reason, wouldn't you want to at least work a way to fix it?

Did you ask if they wanted advice? The key part of being a mentor is putting yourself out there if they need assistance, but keeping the control in their hands on whether they partake of that assistance or not. Anytime you're advising someone, it's important to keep the control in their hands.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Soooo people are not allowed to explain things without people getting triggered and on top of that they are not allowed to kick people? If you waste my time and don't take advise i'm gonna boot you right out of my party because its 3 or more peoples time that you waste.

I'm tired of carrying people through content just because they think that they can do what they want just because they pay a sub. Guess what, the rest of the party also pays a sub.

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People can do what they want . I’m just saying that people jump to a negative approach (kicking) rather than maybe stepping up their effort and try to reinforce it with something positive.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Did you ask if they wanted advice? The key part of being a mentor is putting yourself out there if they need assistance, but keeping the control in their hands on whether they partake of that assistance or not. Anytime you're advising someone, it's important to keep the control in their hands.

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Exactly. Or in learning parties when people get kicked ..I mean they are there to learn, along with everyone else

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Did you ask if they wanted advice? The key part of being a mentor is putting yourself out there if they need assistance, but keeping the control in their hands on whether they partake of that assistance or not. Anytime you're advising someone, it's important to keep the control in their hands.

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If you are lucky and having a good mentor in your party that is.... most crown owners die before the newbie...

Oh another case.

I'm sittin' in Ala Mhigo using my Diversion and still pulling off of the threat in AoE situations from the WAR tank (Who is in 350+, mind you.)

Askin' them to keep threat, harassed because I didn't have a 100% uptime on Diversion, which is impossible. 30 seconds long, 120 second cooldown. Not to mention I'll get the threat during the 30 seconds...

I think part of the problem is people that would benefit advice the most are the ones that will ignore/get mad and at any advice no matter how its given which leads to them doing poorly which leads to people trying to give them advice you can probably see where this is going

Speaking to your OP, I would say its partly about what you say and how you say it and the other part is how the other person reads it. We interpret text through our own perception, if i'm having a bad day I will interpret "Do you know how to play your job?" as an attack even if it may have been asked in an "i see you struggling, would you like some help" tone of voice. Intonation is lost in text. Even something as simple as adding a single word to that sentence can make it sound more insulting/hostile "Do you even know how to play your job?" so the words you use also matter.

Not knowing how you initiate the advise in particular or the situation that prompted the urge to give advise I cant really give any pointers on how you could approach the situation. What I might be able to suggest is to come up with a stock opener for when you would like to give advise to someone (since you are a mentor you could use that as a way to diffuse the situation before it starts) I'll try to give a few samplers below. Take what you will from it.

"Hi, Ive been a mentor for a long time and I noticed something in your playstyle that you might be able to improve on. Would you like me to share it with you?"

"Oh! (insertnamehere) you are playing my favorite class! That's awesome! Have you been playing it long?
Ah, I see. If you're interested I could share some of the tricks I learned and maybe you could incorporate them into your playstyle"

Something along those lines, the trick is not to make them feel stupid, as soon as you do that people become defensive and will balk at any sort of help you could have given them. The big thing is not to just give advise but ask if they might like some input and if they say no, then dont bother. 90% of the time its a PUG group and you probably wont even see that player again. The tricky part is not knowing the other person at all so you don't know what might be a trigger. Just think back to your real life job and recall the last time some stranger came up to you and started to tell you how to do you job. How did they approach it? How did it make you feel? How did you react? as a mentor, set people up for success and never hold your knowledge over their heads as though you are better than they are (even if it is true). There are many reasons someone may not be preforming at their best, RL distractions, done it a thousand times and doesnt really care, lazy, havent played in a while, just bought a jump potion, or just an asshole who likes to troll through terrible playing. I'll end this with a couple of examples of a less successful way of giving advise.

"Dude, do you even know your rotation? Here, let me give you some advise..."

"You look like you are struggling, I bet if you kept your (buff) up you would do better"

"Why do i keep taking threat? Do you know how to tank?/Need some pointers?"

I'll say what I always do when this topic comes up: there's no such thing as unsolicited advice. Don't wait for someone to ask, if you see them screwing up repeatedly and you know what they're doing wrong, correct them. No one is going to ask for advice if they think what they're doing is correct. And they'll think what they're doing is correct if no one ever tells them otherwise.

Players are usually "bad" because no one bothers to speak up and set them straight. Either that player is flat out ignorant as to how they should be performing or they're intentionally sandbagging and looking for a carry. Either way, letting them get by on the efforts of the rest of the party is nonsense and unfair to the rest of the group. Offer quick advice. If they take it, great, now there's one less "bad" player in the community. If they blow up on you or otherwise ignore you, kick them from the party because one person's "fun" shouldn't come at the expense of the other 3/7/23 people in the party. Dungeons require team effort and if there's one member whose actions run directly counter to the group's success, they need to shape up or they need to go. Don't just sit there and let them make the party work harder to make up for their shortcomings, regardless of whether they're doing it intentionally or because they don't know any better.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall though. This community embraces complacency and mediocrity, thinking that expecting someone to actually put forth basic effort is tantamount to elitism.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

People can do what they want . I’m just saying that people jump to a negative approach (kicking) rather than maybe stepping up their effort and try to reinforce it with something positive.

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When you completly mess up and someone explains it to you in a propper and friendly way and you ignore it and/or give an answer like "i can do what i want" i will boot you.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Players are usually "bad" because no one bothers to speak up and set them straight.

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Players are usually bad because they don't give a flying eff.